Main
Date: 06 Dec 2008 23:14:21
From: SAT W-7
Subject: Question about the opening names
When the game starts and White plays a opening , does black have it's
own opening name or just white ?

Understand that question ?







 
Date: 08 Dec 2008 16:01:04
From: chasmad
Subject: Re: Question about the opening names
On Dec 8, 12:30=A0am, Offramp <[email protected] > wrote:
> On Dec 8, 1:17=A0am, chasmad <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > On Dec 7, 10:52=A0am, Offramp <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > One of the massive paradoxes of chess is that in a Reversed Sicilian
> > > white NEVER gets an advantage.
>
> > Are you referring to the positions generally arising after 1.c4 e5?
> > Or, by "Reversed Sicilian," do you mean "Reversed Dragon" (e.g., 1.c4
> > e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.g3 d5 4.cxd5 Nxd5, etc.)?
>
> Yes.
> 1. e4 c5 =A0 2. Nf3 d6 =A0 3. d4 cxd4 =A0 4. Nxd4 Nf6 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=
=A0+37.2%
> =3D32.9% -29.9%
> 1. c4 e5 =A0 2. Nc3 Nf6 =A0 3. g3 d5 =A0 4. cxd5 Nxd5 5. Bg2 +38.4% =3D33=
.6%
> -28%
>
> QED!

I guess you've got it all figured out. You need to inform Aronian and
Nakamura that they will never beat strong players with such stuff.

[Event "Amber Rapid"]
[Site "Nice FRA"]
[Date "2008.??.??"]
[White "Aronian,L"]
[Black "Karjakin,Sergey"]
[Result "1-0"]
[WhiteElo "2739"]
[BlackElo "2732"]
[ECO "A22"]
[Round "2"]

1. c4 e5 2. Nc3 Nf6 3. Nf3 Nc6 4. g3 d5 5. cxd5 Nxd5 6. Bg2 Nb6 7. O-O
Be7 8. a3 O-O 9. b4 Be6 10. Rb1 f6 11. d3 Nd4 12. Nd2 c6 13. Nde4 Rf7
14. Bd2 Nd5 15. e3 Nxc3 16. Nxc3 Nf5 17. Qc2 Bf8 18. Rfd1 a5 19. Na4
axb4 20. Bxb4 Kh8 21. Bxf8 Qxf8 22. Nc5 Bc8 23. a4 Nd6 24. Rb4 Bf5 25.
Qb2 h6 26. h3 Qc8 27. g4 Be6 28. d4 e4 29. Nxe6 Qxe6 30. d5 cxd5 31.
Qd2 Ra5 32. Rd4 b6 33. Rxd5 Nb7 34. Rxa5 bxa5 35. Qc2 f5 36. gxf5 Qxf5
37. Bxe4 Qg5+ 38. Bg2 Nd8 39. Rd5 Qf6 40. Rxa5 Rf8 41. Ra8 Qa1+ 42.
Bf1 Qa3 43. Qd2 Nc6 44. Rxf8+ Qxf8 45. Qd5 Qf6 46. Bg2 Qa1+ 47. Kh2
Ne5 48. Qd4 Qxd4 49. exd4 Nc4 50. Kg3 g5 51. Kg4 1-0

[Event "TCh-FRA Top 16 Gp A"]
[Site "Noyon FRA"]
[Date "2008.??.??"]
[White "Nakamura,H"]
[Black "Bauer,Ch"]
[Result "1-0"]
[WhiteElo "2670"]
[BlackElo "2614"]
[ECO "A22"]
[Round "4"]

1. c4 e5 2. Nc3 Nf6 3. Nf3 Nc6 4. g3 d5 5. cxd5 Nxd5 6. Bg2 Nb6 7. O-O
Be7 8. d3 O-O 9. a3 Be6 10. b4 a5 11. b5 Nd4 12. Rb1 f6 13. e3 Nxf3+
14. Bxf3 Rb8 15. Qc2 Rf7 16. Rd1 Bf8 17. d4 exd4 18. Ne2 d3 19. Rxd3
Rd7 20. Be4 g6 21. Bb2 Rxd3 22. Bxd3 a4 23. Rc1 Bb3 24. Qxc7 Qxd3 25.
Qxb6 Qd6 26. Qxd6 Bxd6 27. Nd4 Bd5 28. f3 f5 29. Kf2 Kf7 30. b6 Rd8
31. h3 h5 32. f4 Ke7 33. Nf3 Ra8 34. Nh4 Ra6 35. Nxg6+ Ke6 36. Bd4
Bxa3 37. Rc8 Bd6 38. Ne5 Be4 39. g4 fxg4 40. hxg4 hxg4 41. Re8+ Kd5
42. Nxg4 Bf5 43. Nh6 Bd7 44. Rd8 Kc6 45. Nf7 a3 46. Rh8 Ra4 47. Nd8+
Kd5 48. Nxb7 Bxf4 49. Rh5+ Kc4 50. Nc5 Ra5 51. exf4 a2 52. b7 Rb5 53.
Nxd7 Rxb7 54. Ra5 1-0

[Event "XXV SuperGM"]
[Site "Morelia/Linares MEX/ESP"]
[Date "2008.??.??"]
[White "Aronian,L"]
[Black "Topalov,V"]
[Result "1-0"]
[WhiteElo "2739"]
[BlackElo "2780"]
[ECO "A16"]
[Round "8"]

1. c4 Nf6 2. Nc3 e5 3. Nf3 Nc6 4. g3 d5 5. cxd5 Nxd5 6. Bg2 Nb6 7. O-O
Be7 8. a3 O-O 9. b4 Be6 10. Rb1 f6 11. d3 Nd4 12. Nd2 c6 13. Nde4 Nd5
14. e3 Nxc3 15. Nxc3 Nf5 16. Qc2 Rc8 17. Rd1 Qd7 18. d4 exd4 19. exd4
Bd6 20. Ne4 Rcd8 21. Bb2 Qf7 22. Rd2 Bd5 23. Re1 Bb8 24. Rde2 b6 25.
Nd2 Bxg2 26. Kxg2 Qd5+ 27. Kg1 b5 28. Nb3 Bd6 29. Na5 Rc8 30. Rc1 Rc7
31. Qd3 Rfc8 32. Rec2 g6 33. Qf1 Kf7 34. Qg2 Ne7 35. Re1 h5 36. h4 f5
37. Bc1 f4 38. Rxe7+ Bxe7 39. Bxf4 Qxg2+ 40. Kxg2 Rd7 41. Nxc6 Kg7 42.
d5 a6 43. Kf3 Bf6 44. Ke4 Re7+ 45. Kd3 Rd7 46. d6 Re8 47. Nd4 Kf7 48.
Nf3 a5 49. Rc5 axb4 50. axb4 Rb7 51. Nd2 Ra8 52. Ne4 Bd8 53. Rd5 Ra3+
54. Kd4 Rb3 55. Kc5 Ke6 56. Rd2 Rb1 57. Re2 Kd7 58. Kd5 Rd1+ 59. Rd2
Rxd2+ 60. Bxd2 Ke8 61. Ke6 Rb6 62. Bg5 Rc6 63. Bxd8 Kxd8 64. Ng5 Ke8
65. Nf7 1-0

Charles


 
Date: 07 Dec 2008 21:30:48
From: Offramp
Subject: Re: Question about the opening names
On Dec 8, 1:17=A0am, chasmad <[email protected] > wrote:
> On Dec 7, 10:52=A0am, Offramp <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > One of the massive paradoxes of chess is that in a Reversed Sicilian
> > white NEVER gets an advantage.
>
> Are you referring to the positions generally arising after 1.c4 e5?
> Or, by "Reversed Sicilian," do you mean "Reversed Dragon" (e.g., 1.c4
> e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.g3 d5 4.cxd5 Nxd5, etc.)?

Yes.
1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 +37.2%
=3D32.9% -29.9%
1. c4 e5 2. Nc3 Nf6 3. g3 d5 4. cxd5 Nxd5 5. Bg2 +38.4% =3D33.6%
-28%

QED!


 
Date: 07 Dec 2008 17:17:22
From: chasmad
Subject: Re: Question about the opening names
On Dec 7, 10:52=A0am, Offramp <[email protected] > wrote:
> One of the massive paradoxes of chess is that in a Reversed Sicilian
> white NEVER gets an advantage.

Are you referring to the positions generally arising after 1.c4 e5?
Or, by "Reversed Sicilian," do you mean "Reversed Dragon" (e.g., 1.c4
e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.g3 d5 4.cxd5 Nxd5, etc.)?

In either case -- where on earth did you get the idea that White never
gets an advantage? Maybe you should inform the GMs who keep playing
the White side.

Charles


 
Date: 07 Dec 2008 07:52:11
From: Offramp
Subject: Re: Question about the opening names
One of the massive paradoxes of chess is that in a Reversed Sicilian
white NEVER gets an advantage.


 
Date: 07 Dec 2008 06:55:58
From:
Subject: Re: Question about the opening names
On Dec 7, 9:24=A0am, [email protected] wrote:
> On Dec 7, 2:14=A0am, [email protected] (SAT W-7) wrote:
>
> > =A0 When the game starts and White plays a opening =A0, does black have=
it's
> > own opening name or just white ?
>
> =A0 It's a bit complicated. There are a few openings where one side can
> usually play several set moves with little or no regard for what his
> opponent does. Examples would be the Colle (d2-d4, Ng1-f3, e2-e3, Bf1-
> d3 etc), the King's Indian Attack (Ng1-f3, g2-g3, Bf1-g2, d2-d3 etc.),
> the Modern Defense (g7-g6, Bf8-g7, d7-d6 etc.). In such cases it could
> be said that the opening name stems only from White's or Black's
> moves.
> =A0 In the great majority of openings, however, it's an interactive
> thing, where the line's name is determined by what both players do.
> For example, with a game starting 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5, both players' moves
> have contributed to making it a French Defense. If White had played,
> say, 1.b3 and 2.g3, it would not be a French even if Black played
> 1...e6 and 2...d5.
> =A0 After 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 we have a Ruy Lopez, or Spanish
> Opening. Again it takes both players to make it so. If the game had
> gone, say, 1.e4 Nc6 2.Nf3 a6 3.Bb4, not only would it not be a Ruy
> Lopez, but White is foolhardy trying to make it one.
> =A0 A further complication in getting the openinng name right is the
> possibility of transposition, i.e. reaching a given position by
> different move orders. For example, after 1.e4 e5 2.f4, you have a
> King's Gambit. But suppose White begins 1.f4. Usually one would call
> this Bird's Opening, and it would usually stay that if Black replied,
> say 1...d5. However, in reply to 1.f4 Black may try 1...e5. If White
> replies 2.fxe5 then this is known as From's Gambit. BUT, if White
> plays 2.e4, then we have a King's Gambit by transposition.
> =A0 I'm not going to get at all into the subject of variation names;
> that adds a whole 'nother level of complication. Anyway, I hope this
> answers your question to some extent.

Thinking a bit further, I realized there may be another aspect to
your question, that I did not address above. In a sense, it can be
said that in a given game, White's opening and Black's opening have
different names. For example, after 1.d4 d5 2.c4 we have a Queen's
Gambit. The choice to play the gambit is White's, and barring odd
transpositions, the game will remain a Queen's Gambit. However, Black
has a choice of defenses, such as 2...e6 (Orthodox Defense) and 2...c6
(Slav Defense). After 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6, it could be said that White has
played the Queen's Gambit, and Black has replied with the Slav
Defense. In that sense, each side's opening could be said to have its
own name.
As far as practical play is concerned, it's not too important to
know all the myriad names of openings and their variations. The names
don't tell you how to play correctly; they're just useful as a
classification scheme. For example, if you want to know how to play
after 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Bb4, it's useful to know that this is
called the Nimzo-Indian Defense, so that you can find a relevant book,
e.g. "How to Play the Nimzo-Indian" by GM So-and-so. But you don't
need to know that a certain line of the Nimzo-Indian characterized by
a certain pawn push at Black's 15th move is called the Wasistdasdenn
variation.


 
Date: 07 Dec 2008 06:24:53
From:
Subject: Re: Question about the opening names
On Dec 7, 2:14=A0am, [email protected] (SAT W-7) wrote:
> =A0 When the game starts and White plays a opening =A0, does black have i=
t's
> own opening name or just white ?

It's a bit complicated. There are a few openings where one side can
usually play several set moves with little or no regard for what his
opponent does. Examples would be the Colle (d2-d4, Ng1-f3, e2-e3, Bf1-
d3 etc), the King's Indian Attack (Ng1-f3, g2-g3, Bf1-g2, d2-d3 etc.),
the Modern Defense (g7-g6, Bf8-g7, d7-d6 etc.). In such cases it could
be said that the opening name stems only from White's or Black's
moves.
In the great majority of openings, however, it's an interactive
thing, where the line's name is determined by what both players do.
For example, with a game starting 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5, both players' moves
have contributed to making it a French Defense. If White had played,
say, 1.b3 and 2.g3, it would not be a French even if Black played
1...e6 and 2...d5.
After 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 we have a Ruy Lopez, or Spanish
Opening. Again it takes both players to make it so. If the game had
gone, say, 1.e4 Nc6 2.Nf3 a6 3.Bb4, not only would it not be a Ruy
Lopez, but White is foolhardy trying to make it one.
A further complication in getting the openinng name right is the
possibility of transposition, i.e. reaching a given position by
different move orders. For example, after 1.e4 e5 2.f4, you have a
King's Gambit. But suppose White begins 1.f4. Usually one would call
this Bird's Opening, and it would usually stay that if Black replied,
say 1...d5. However, in reply to 1.f4 Black may try 1...e5. If White
replies 2.fxe5 then this is known as From's Gambit. BUT, if White
plays 2.e4, then we have a King's Gambit by transposition.
I'm not going to get at all into the subject of variation names;
that adds a whole 'nother level of complication. Anyway, I hope this
answers your question to some extent.


  
Date: 08 Dec 2008 00:21:25
From: SAT W-7
Subject: Re: Question about the opening names
Thanks for all that info ..You are right it is complicated ..



 
Date: 06 Dec 2008 23:48:54
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: Question about the opening names
On Dec 7, 12:14=A0pm, [email protected] (SAT W-7) wrote:
> =A0 When the game starts and White plays a opening =A0, does black have i=
t's
> own opening name or just white ?
>
> Understand that question ?

In chess one person cannot descide which opening will be played. Each
player Narrows the opening.

First White chooses a move and then only those opening can be played
that start with that move. Then Black Narrows the opening further.

Both tries to make the game in a opening they are much aware of. But
soon the memory is gone and middle game starts.

To improve middle game play Chess at GetClub.

http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

Once you have got an advantage in middle game you can then easily win
the end game.

So Opening is descided by both players.

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html