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Date: 17 Oct 2007 09:36:54
From: samsloan
Subject: Nona Gaprindashvili and her GM title
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I would like to point out that in 1978, when Nona Gaprindashvili was
awarded the GM title, the current requirement of three GM norms and a
FIDE rating of 2500 was not yet in effect. The rule up until at least
1970 was that ONE NORM in a 1A tournament of at least 16 players and
ten grandmasters was enough to earn the GM title. The rating
requirement of at least 2450 (not 2500) was introduced in around 1980.
FIDE ratings did not even exist until 1970.
I have the FIDE rules for 1982 which state that the Woman's World
Champion would be awarded the IM title only, not the GM Title. The GM
Title then required two GM norms plus a rating of 2450.
You should try to find the rules in effect in 1978, when Nona
Gaprindashvili was awarded the title. I am almost sure that there was
no rating requirement back then. It was well known that Nona
Gaprindashvili was awarded the GM title because of winning Lone Pine
1977 which was the strongest tournament held in the world that year.
Maia Chiburdanidze was not awarded the GM title until 1987, which was
9 years after she had become Woman's World Champion, so being Woman's
World Champion was of no relevance prior to that time.
Sam Sloan
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Date: 18 Oct 2007 08:26:40
From: Taylor Kingston
Subject: Re: Nona Gaprindashvili and her GM title
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On Oct 18, 9:30 am, samsloan <[email protected] > wrote:
> Of course, when I wrote "strongest tournament held in the world that
> year" I was not including 16-player super-grandmaster round robins.
"Of course"?? This is rather like saying "Of course when I wrote
'strongest tournament in the world' I was not including the strongest
tournaments in the world." Or "When I said that 'The Chevrolet Impala
is the fastest car in the world' I was of course not including cars
that go faster."
Sam, you wrote simply "Lone Pine 1977 which was the strongest
tournament held in the world that year." An absolute statement, no
qualifiers, express or implied. So your "of course I meant something
different" just looks silly now.
> Perhaps I should have written "strongest Swiss tournament held in the
> world that year".
In that case you might have been correct, though one would have to
check the other major Swisses to be sure.
As to the rest of what you say below, Sam, I definitely agree. Even
such a confirmed male chauvinist as Jan Hein Donner could not but
write admiringly of Gaprindsahvili's achievement at Lone Pine:
"There is no denying it any more: notions as to women's physical
mental deficiency are as of now no longer based on fact. Even in the
field of chess, there is at least one woman who rates as a world-class
player." -- De Volkskrant, 18 June 1977
> The point is that her performance rating of 2615 was easily enough for
> the grandmaster title by the standards of that time. Back then, the
> grandmaster norm was 2500. Now it is 2600 as ratings have inflated.
> Back then, only three or four grandmaster titles were awarded per
> year, now there are dozens, and often qualified recipients had to wait
> two years. (I cannot remember when they started awarding them on an
> annual basis.)
>
> As it turned out, Gaprindashvili's 2615 performance was a one-time-
> only result. She never did it again. That is an unusual case because
> usually if a player does it once, they do it again and again.
>
> Also, in 1977 it was rare for any player to get out of the Soviet
> Union and be able to play in a chess tournament in the USA (not
> counting defectors, of course).
>
> In short, anybody who says that Gaprindashvili did not deserve the
> grandmaster title or that she got it through political pressure is
> just plain wrong. Gaprindashvili probably only got that one chance
> even to play in a tournament where a grandmaster title was available
> and she won it the first chance she got. By contrast, Polgar whose
> active playing career extended from 1985 to 1992 until she voluntarily
> retired played in one grandmaster tournament after another over a
> seven year stretch. She had an infinite number of opportunities
> available and collecting three norms over a seven year period was a
> relatively easy task.
>
> Also, I need to point out that I, Sam Sloan, was the one who
> originally pointed out that Gaprindashvili and Chiburdanidze had not
> made the three norms that Polgar made. Do not forget that I was
> Polgar's chief supporter, advocate and publicist for many years
> starting in 1986. All of these reks about Gaprindashvili and
> Chiburdanidze not making the level of achievements that Polgar made
> got their information from me, because I was the first and indeed the
> only person to point this out.
>
> However, I do not believe that I ever said that Gaprindashvili did not
> deserve the grandmaster title. I did state and I still believe that
> the grandmaster title for Chiburdanidze stood on shaky ground, as I do
> not believe that Chiburdanidze has ever made a solid GM norm.
>
> Sam Sloan- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
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Date: 18 Oct 2007 06:30:58
From: samsloan
Subject: Re: Nona Gaprindashvili and her GM title
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On Oct 17, 4:56 pm, Taylor Kingston <[email protected] > wrote:
> On Oct 17, 12:36 pm, samsloan <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
> > I would like to point out that in 1978, when Nona Gaprindashvili was
> > awarded the GM title, the current requirement of three GM norms and a
> > FIDE rating of 2500 was not yet in effect. The rule up until at least
> > 1970 was that ONE NORM in a 1A tournament of at least 16 players and
> > ten grandmasters was enough to earn the GM title. The rating
> > requirement of at least 2450 (not 2500) was introduced in around 1980.
> > FIDE ratings did not even exist until 1970.
>
> > I have the FIDE rules for 1982 which state that the Woman's World
> > Champion would be awarded the IM title only, not the GM Title. The GM
> > Title then required two GM norms plus a rating of 2450.
>
> > You should try to find the rules in effect in 1978, when Nona
> > Gaprindashvili was awarded the title. I am almost sure that there was
> > no rating requirement back then. It was well known that Nona
> > Gaprindashvili was awarded the GM title because of winning Lone Pine
> > 1977
>
> It would be more accurate to say she co-won it, sharing 1st with
> Balashov, Panno, and (I believe) Sahovic, each of the four scoring
> 6=BD-2=BD.
>
> > which was the strongest tournament held in the world that year.
>
> A _very_ dubious claim. Other major tournaments that year included:
>
> Bad Lauterberg (won by Karpov 12-3 over Timman, Furman, Sosonko,
> Olafsson, Csom, H=FCbner, Liberzon, Gligoric, Miles, Andersson, Keene,
> Torre et al),
> Geneva (Larsen 8=BD-4=BD over Andersson, Dzindzischashvili, Sosonko,
> Pachman, Torre et al),
> Ljubljana-Portoroz (Larsen 9=BD-3=BD over Hort, Savon, Tseshkovsky,
> Kurajica, Parma, Sosonko, Bukic, Gligoric et al),
> Leningrad (Romanishin and Tal 11=BD-5=BD ahead of Smyslov, Vaganian,
> Karpov, Balashov, Kochiev, Ribli, Taimanov, Smejkal, Beliavsky et al),
> and
> Tilburg (Karpov 8-3 over Miles, Hort, Kavalek, Timman, H=FCbner,
> Gligoric, Andersson, Balashov, Smyslov, Sosonko and Olafsson).
>
> The above events have a preponderance of high-ranking GMs, including
> the reigning World Champion (Karpov), two former champions (Tal and
> Smyslov) and a number of past or future FIDE Candidates (Larsen,
> Gligoric, H=FCbner, Timman, Hort, Ribli, Beliavsky, Taimanov, Olafsson,
> and perhaps others I can't recall off the top of my head). I don't
> know the FIDE categories for these events, but clearly they included
> many players in the 2600-2700+ Elo range.
> In contrast (assuming the ratings in CB Megadatabase 2005 are
> correct), the top-rated player at Lone Pine 1977, Balashov, was rated
> only 2565. Among the top 20 finishers there we find Peters (2370),
> Reagan (2375) and Rohde (2380). Tying for =3D7-14th (out of 48) was Roy
> Ervin, a mere 2200! A player of that strength would be lucky not to
> place last in any of the five tournaments I listed. A total of eight
> 2200 players were in the Lone Pine field, which greatly drags down the
> overall strength of the event.
> Gaprindashvili's TPR at Lone Pine was 2615. Very praiseworthy, but
> hardly good enough to win an event with the likes of Karpov, Tal,
> Larsen, Smyslov, Timman, H=FCbner and such playing.
>
> I mention this not to slight Gaprindashvili's achievement at all --
> only to challenge Sloan's insupportable claim that Lone Pine was the
> strongest tournament of 1977.
Of course, when I wrote "strongest tournament held in the world that
year" I was not including 16-player super-grandmaster round robins.
Perhaps I should have written "strongest Swiss tournament held in the
world that year".
The point is that her performance rating of 2615 was easily enough for
the grandmaster title by the standards of that time. Back then, the
grandmaster norm was 2500. Now it is 2600 as ratings have inflated.
Back then, only three or four grandmaster titles were awarded per
year, now there are dozens, and often qualified recipients had to wait
two years. (I cannot remember when they started awarding them on an
annual basis.)
As it turned out, Gaprindashvili's 2615 performance was a one-time-
only result. She never did it again. That is an unusual case because
usually if a player does it once, they do it again and again.
Also, in 1977 it was rare for any player to get out of the Soviet
Union and be able to play in a chess tournament in the USA (not
counting defectors, of course).
In short, anybody who says that Gaprindashvili did not deserve the
grandmaster title or that she got it through political pressure is
just plain wrong. Gaprindashvili probably only got that one chance
even to play in a tournament where a grandmaster title was available
and she won it the first chance she got. By contrast, Polgar whose
active playing career extended from 1985 to 1992 until she voluntarily
retired played in one grandmaster tournament after another over a
seven year stretch. She had an infinite number of opportunities
available and collecting three norms over a seven year period was a
relatively easy task.
Also, I need to point out that I, Sam Sloan, was the one who
originally pointed out that Gaprindashvili and Chiburdanidze had not
made the three norms that Polgar made. Do not forget that I was
Polgar's chief supporter, advocate and publicist for many years
starting in 1986. All of these reks about Gaprindashvili and
Chiburdanidze not making the level of achievements that Polgar made
got their information from me, because I was the first and indeed the
only person to point this out.
However, I do not believe that I ever said that Gaprindashvili did not
deserve the grandmaster title. I did state and I still believe that
the grandmaster title for Chiburdanidze stood on shaky ground, as I do
not believe that Chiburdanidze has ever made a solid GM norm.
Sam Sloan
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Date: 18 Oct 2007 16:41:34
From: Chess One
Subject: Re: Nona Gaprindashvili and her GM title
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Even after a polite request, we chess folks are still pissing off
soc.culture.rep-of-georgia,soc.culture.russian,soc.culture.magyar
which are hereby eliminated.
> So, this is all about you, then? And when you say publicist, not
exactly
> formal publicist. More cheer-leader from the stands?
>
> Phil Innes
Since I was traveling with her and basically living with her for a
period of six months I was a bit more than just a cheerleader from the
stands.
Sam Sloan
--
O! I thought it was 6 years you wrote about, not 6 months - let me see <goes
back and checks >
"Do not forget that I was
Polgar's chief supporter, advocate and publicist for many years
starting in 1986. "
Pardon my error, a reasonable person could have misunderstood you.
Phil Innes
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Date: 17 Oct 2007 21:38:19
From: Yosemite Sam
Subject: PING: samsloan - Re: Nona Gaprindashvili and her GM title
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You keep posting all kind of garbage to these lists:
rec.games.chess.politics, rec.games.chess.misc, soc.culture.rep-of-
georgia, soc.culture.russian, soc.culture.magyar
Why?
Are you some kind of mental patient posting from an institution to all
these lists?
You keep harping about that polgar garbage and cluttering up lists
that have no interest in whatever problems you are having with your
chess buddies.
Get a life and post your chess garbage to chess lists.
On Oct 17, 6:36 pm, samsloan <[email protected] > wrote:
> I would like to point out that in 1978, when Nona Gaprindashvili was
> awarded the GM title, the current requirement of three GM norms and a
> FIDE rating of 2500 was not yet in effect. The rule up until at least
> 1970 was that ONE NORM in a 1A tournament of at least 16 players and
> ten grandmasters was enough to earn the GM title. The rating
> requirement of at least 2450 (not 2500) was introduced in around 1980.
> FIDE ratings did not even exist until 1970.
>
> I have the FIDE rules for 1982 which state that the Woman's World
> Champion would be awarded the IM title only, not the GM Title. The GM
> Title then required two GM norms plus a rating of 2450.
>
> You should try to find the rules in effect in 1978, when Nona
> Gaprindashvili was awarded the title. I am almost sure that there was
> no rating requirement back then. It was well known that Nona
> Gaprindashvili was awarded the GM title because of winning Lone Pine
> 1977 which was the strongest tournament held in the world that year.
> Maia Chiburdanidze was not awarded the GM title until 1987, which was
> 9 years after she had become Woman's World Champion, so being Woman's
> World Champion was of no relevance prior to that time.
>
> Sam Sloan
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Date: 17 Oct 2007 14:07:25
From:
Subject: Re: Nona Gaprindashvili and her GM title
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On Oct 17, 11:36 am, samsloan <[email protected] > wrote:
> I would like to point out that in 1978, when Nona Gaprindashvili was
> awarded the GM title, the current requirement of three GM norms and a
> FIDE rating of 2500 was not yet in effect. The rule up until at least
> 1970 was that ONE NORM in a 1A tournament of at least 16 players and
> ten grandmasters was enough to earn the GM title. The rating
> requirement of at least 2450 (not 2500) was introduced in around 1980.
> FIDE ratings did not even exist until 1970.
>
> I have the FIDE rules for 1982 which state that the Woman's World
> Champion would be awarded the IM title only, not the GM Title. The GM
> Title then required two GM norms plus a rating of 2450.
>
> You should try to find the rules in effect in 1978, when Nona
> Gaprindashvili was awarded the title. I am almost sure that there was
> no rating requirement back then. It was well known that Nona
> Gaprindashvili was awarded the GM title because of winning Lone Pine
> 1977 which was the strongest tournament held in the world that year.
> Maia Chiburdanidze was not awarded the GM title until 1987, which was
> 9 years after she had become Woman's World Champion, so being Woman's
> World Champion was of no relevance prior to that time.
>
> Sam Sloan
Sam
This is a issue of FIDE Governance. I think the FIDE Delegates made
her a Grandmaster of Chess, by resolution. It
is like a battlefield comission. You have got to ask the question, do
the actions of Paul Troung hurt women's chess?
I observe that there are two states of WAR, and that the FIDE
Delegates could be forced into voting to strip all women
of all their chess titles, or halt women's titles.
I am sick of this. St Kitts and Nevis will play in the world chess
championship. FIDE knows what comes next. If North America
walks out of FIDE, would Kirsan care? Probably for the dues, yes, he
would...
cus Roberts
Permanent Delegate of St Kitts and Nevis to FIDE
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Date: 18 Oct 2007 13:00:20
From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Glob=E1lis_Szennyez=E9s?=
Subject: Re: Nona Gaprindashvili and her GM title
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Stop Xposting to inappropriate NGs. Thanx.
[email protected] wrote:
>On Oct 17, 11:36 am, samsloan <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>I would like to point out that in 1978,
_SNIP_
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Date: 17 Oct 2007 13:56:52
From: Taylor Kingston
Subject: Re: Nona Gaprindashvili and her GM title
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On Oct 17, 12:36 pm, samsloan <[email protected] > wrote:
> I would like to point out that in 1978, when Nona Gaprindashvili was
> awarded the GM title, the current requirement of three GM norms and a
> FIDE rating of 2500 was not yet in effect. The rule up until at least
> 1970 was that ONE NORM in a 1A tournament of at least 16 players and
> ten grandmasters was enough to earn the GM title. The rating
> requirement of at least 2450 (not 2500) was introduced in around 1980.
> FIDE ratings did not even exist until 1970.
>
> I have the FIDE rules for 1982 which state that the Woman's World
> Champion would be awarded the IM title only, not the GM Title. The GM
> Title then required two GM norms plus a rating of 2450.
>
> You should try to find the rules in effect in 1978, when Nona
> Gaprindashvili was awarded the title. I am almost sure that there was
> no rating requirement back then. It was well known that Nona
> Gaprindashvili was awarded the GM title because of winning Lone Pine
> 1977
It would be more accurate to say she co-won it, sharing 1st with
Balashov, Panno, and (I believe) Sahovic, each of the four scoring
6=BD-2=BD.
> which was the strongest tournament held in the world that year.
A _very_ dubious claim. Other major tournaments that year included:
Bad Lauterberg (won by Karpov 12-3 over Timman, Furman, Sosonko,
Olafsson, Csom, H=FCbner, Liberzon, Gligoric, Miles, Andersson, Keene,
Torre et al),
Geneva (Larsen 8=BD-4=BD over Andersson, Dzindzischashvili, Sosonko,
Pachman, Torre et al),
Ljubljana-Portoroz (Larsen 9=BD-3=BD over Hort, Savon, Tseshkovsky,
Kurajica, Parma, Sosonko, Bukic, Gligoric et al),
Leningrad (Romanishin and Tal 11=BD-5=BD ahead of Smyslov, Vaganian,
Karpov, Balashov, Kochiev, Ribli, Taimanov, Smejkal, Beliavsky et al),
and
Tilburg (Karpov 8-3 over Miles, Hort, Kavalek, Timman, H=FCbner,
Gligoric, Andersson, Balashov, Smyslov, Sosonko and Olafsson).
The above events have a preponderance of high-ranking GMs, including
the reigning World Champion (Karpov), two former champions (Tal and
Smyslov) and a number of past or future FIDE Candidates (Larsen,
Gligoric, H=FCbner, Timman, Hort, Ribli, Beliavsky, Taimanov, Olafsson,
and perhaps others I can't recall off the top of my head). I don't
know the FIDE categories for these events, but clearly they included
many players in the 2600-2700+ Elo range.
In contrast (assuming the ratings in CB Megadatabase 2005 are
correct), the top-rated player at Lone Pine 1977, Balashov, was rated
only 2565. Among the top 20 finishers there we find Peters (2370),
Reagan (2375) and Rohde (2380). Tying for =3D7-14th (out of 48) was Roy
Ervin, a mere 2200! A player of that strength would be lucky not to
place last in any of the five tournaments I listed. A total of eight
2200 players were in the Lone Pine field, which greatly drags down the
overall strength of the event.
Gaprindashvili's TPR at Lone Pine was 2615. Very praiseworthy, but
hardly good enough to win an event with the likes of Karpov, Tal,
Larsen, Smyslov, Timman, H=FCbner and such playing.
I mention this not to slight Gaprindashvili's achievement at all --
only to challenge Sloan's insupportable claim that Lone Pine was the
strongest tournament of 1977.
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Date: 17 Oct 2007 16:57:38
From: Bionic Booger Boy
Subject: Re: Nona Gaprindashvili and her GM title
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What you don't seem to comprehend is no one cares what you want to point
out.
Feel free to spam alt.samsloancrap but do not let us dissuade you from
getting lost.
"samsloan" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>I would like to point out that in 1978, when Nona Gaprindashvili was
> awarded the GM title, the current requirement of three GM norms and a
> FIDE rating of 2500 was not yet in effect. The rule up until at least
> 1970 was that ONE NORM in a 1A tournament of at least 16 players and
> ten grandmasters was enough to earn the GM title. The rating
> requirement of at least 2450 (not 2500) was introduced in around 1980.
> FIDE ratings did not even exist until 1970.
>
> I have the FIDE rules for 1982 which state that the Woman's World
> Champion would be awarded the IM title only, not the GM Title. The GM
> Title then required two GM norms plus a rating of 2450.
>
> You should try to find the rules in effect in 1978, when Nona
> Gaprindashvili was awarded the title. I am almost sure that there was
> no rating requirement back then. It was well known that Nona
> Gaprindashvili was awarded the GM title because of winning Lone Pine
> 1977 which was the strongest tournament held in the world that year.
> Maia Chiburdanidze was not awarded the GM title until 1987, which was
> 9 years after she had become Woman's World Champion, so being Woman's
> World Champion was of no relevance prior to that time.
>
> Sam Sloan
>
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