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Main
Date: 30 Nov 2008 23:40:32
From: Sanny
Subject: How to improve GetClub?
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Nowadays a lot of people play at GetClub arround 20-30 games of Chess
are played daily. So to look at recorded games takes a lot of time.
A few things were corrected at GetClub today. Still GetClub is not
winning. But now there is nothing that can be easily improved. So how
to improve GetClub further.
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
Most of the winners take help of Computer to win.
Mentula always plays with Easy Level and win his games.
Please see the recorded games and tell me the mistakes GetClub makes.
So that I may improve the Chess.
http://www.getclub.com/cc/showgame.php?num=10&start=0
Here you can see the latest recorded games.
Today again I played a game against Jester.
Game Played between Jester and beginner at GetClub.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jester : (White)
beginner: (Black)
Game Played at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
View Recorded Game: http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?id=DM31720&game=Chess
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
White -- Black
(Jester ) -- (beginner)
1. c2-c4{34} e7-e5{0}
2. Nb1-c3{282} Ng8-f6{12}
3. Ng1-f3{8} d7-d6{10}
4. d2-d4{10} e5-e4{6}
5. Nf3-g5{10} Nb8-c6{20}
6. d4-d5{12} Nc6-e5{32}
7. Ng5-e4{12} Nf6-d7{6}
8. b2-b3{10} Nd7-b6{22}
9. Bc1-e3{12} Bc8-g4{26}
10. Be3-d4{12} Nb6-d7{28}
11. f2-f3{10} Bg4-f5{10}
12. Ne4-g3{12} Qd8-h4{36}
13. Nc3-b5{20} Ke8-d8{12}
14. e2-e4{12} Bf5-g6{8}
15. Nb5-a7{12} Qh4-f4{22}
16. Bf1-e2{12} Bf8-e7{12}
17. Ke1-g1{8} Rh8-e8{14}
18. a2-a3{10} h7-h5{36}
19. Ng3-h1{10} Nd7-c5{22}
20. g2-g3{12} Qf4-g5{32}
21. Kg1-g2{26} Ra8-a7{8}
22. h2-h4{12} Qg5-h6{8}
23. b3-b4{10} Ne5-d7{6}
24. Rf1-e1{12} Ra7-a6{10}
25. b4-c5{12} d6-c5{6}
26. Bd4-b2{16} Ra6-d6{28}
27. Ra1-b1{12} Nd7-b6{6}
28. Bb2-e5{12} Rd6-d7{8}
29. Be5-f4{12} Qh6-h8{12}
30. a3-a4{10} f7-f6{22}
31. a4-a5{12} Be7-d6{40}
32. Bf4-d6{12} Rd7-d6{6}
33. a5-b6{12} c7-b6{6}
34. Qd1-a4{14} Kd8-c8{14}
35. Qa4-a3{18} Qh8-f8{8}
36. Nh1-f2{14} Bg6-f7{8}
37. Rb1-b5{12} Qf8-e7{18}
38. Qa3-a8{18} Kc8-c7{0}
39. Qa8-a7{16} Qe7-e5{18}
40. Re1-b1{12} Kc7-c8{34}
41. Nf2-d3{12} Qe5-e7{8}
42. Rb5-c5{12} Qe7-c7{10}
43. Rc5-c7{12} Kc8-c7{2}
44. c4-c5{8} Rd6-e6{52}
45. d5-d6{10} Re6-d6{30}
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jester : (White)
beginner: (Black)
Game Played at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
View Recorded Game: http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?id=DM31720&game=Chess
Please advice what is missing in GetClub game. What were the mistakes
made by Beginner Level.
Bye
Sanny
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
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Date: 04 Dec 2008 00:18:31
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: GetClub improved by 4 times today.
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> > So if earlier It took 4 seconds to see till 10 depth, Now it will take
> > just 1 second. And that will be +100 improvemenr in rating.
>
> =A0 No comment. =A0 I am still learning the intricasies
> of chaos theory, in order to be able to fathom the
> way certain minds like Sanny's =A0"work".
Today again the game was improved now it will play very tough games.
Bye
Sanny
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
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Date: 03 Dec 2008 03:48:01
From: help bot
Subject: Re: GetClub improved by 4 times today.
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On Dec 3, 2:24=A0am, Sanny <[email protected] > wrote:
> > > Not any more. TodayGetClubwas improved 4 times.
>
> > > SoGetClubwill play 4 times stronger.
>
> > So now you "rate" it at 8000?
>
> > You don't even understand math, let alonechessand programming.
>
> By 4 times stronger I mean that now the program will take 4 times less
> time in making a move which earlier used to take longer.
Aha. In English, we use the term "faster" when
we wish to say that a chess program takes less
time (not "stronger"). The term "stronger" is
used to indicate an increase in, um, strength.
> When a program in made 2 times strong or Given 2 times more time A
> rating of +50 is increased.
>
> Say Beginner is 2200+ rated.
Okay: "Beginner is 2200+ rated". Somehow,
I don't think this ploy will fool anyone though.
Maybe if you can get *everyone* to say this,
over and over and over; get it on TV; put it in
Wikipedia; publishing the lie in Chess Life, as
those guys will print just about /anything/.
> So if earlier It took 4 seconds to see till 10 depth, Now it will take
> just 1 second. And that will be +100 improvemenr in rating.
No comment. I am still learning the intricasies
of chaos theory, in order to be able to fathom the
way certain minds like Sanny's "work".
-- help bot
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Date: 03 Dec 2008 01:13:42
From: Alessandro J.
Subject: Re: How to improve GetClub?
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On 3 Dic, 03:51, "[email protected]" <[email protected] > wrote:
> =A0Nor would I say that GitClub is "hated" in the sense
> of "the hated enemy." =A0Without Sanny and GitClub, internet chess would
> be a poorer place, at least in terms of humor.
I agree, a very fine point you make there. Every day, as I connect to
the internet, and specifically Groups, I always await with a tingle of
trepidation Sanny's posts, as I know he's always got something for me.
Today was a real gem : just when we thought he'd given up on his
rating scheme, here it pops up again, and this time Get Club has made
grandmaster ! And what about his other gem where he explains how he
relates levels of improvement to rating increase ? Truly an Internet
Giant.
Keep up the good work Sanny, your fans love you !
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Date: 02 Dec 2008 23:24:50
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: GetClub improved by 4 times today.
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> > Not any more. TodayGetClubwas improved 4 times.
>
> > SoGetClubwill play 4 times stronger.
>
> So now you "rate" it at 8000?
>
> You don't even understand math, let alonechessand programming.
By 4 times stronger I mean that now the program will take 4 times less
time in making a move which earlier used to take longer.
When a program in made 2 times strong or Given 2 times more time A
rating of +50 is increased.
Say Beginner is 2200+ rated. Then when it will be twice improved.
Rating will go up by +50.
And when the game is improved 4 times the rating will incrtease by
+100.
Every Twice improvement gives an extra rating of +50.
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
So if earlier It took 4 seconds to see till 10 depth, Now it will take
just 1 second. And that will be +100 improvemenr in rating.
New ratings to each levels.
Beginner: 2300+
Easy: 2400+
Normal: 2500+
Bye
Sanny
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
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Date: 02 Dec 2008 18:51:44
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: How to improve GetClub?
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> > like 20 moves per hour, perhaps.
>
> =A0 For decades, correspondence-chess ratings
> have been used to gauge the success, if not
> the speed, of chessplayers, relative to one
> another; thus, your limitation almost seems
> /contrived/ to victimize the hated GetClub
> program (what other program is this slow?).
You *do* make a good point, in that the slower levels of GitClub could
be likened to correspondence chess. But GitClub is set up to play
some semblance of an over the board game. That is why I impose a
limitation that is in accord with tournament practice. Certainly,
this is not contrived to show GitClub in a poor light. GitClub needs
no help there. Nor would I say that GitClub is "hated" in the sense
of "the hated enemy." Without Sanny and GitClub, internet chess would
be a poorer place, at least in terms of humor.
>
> =A0How far we've come! =A0Now it is possible to
> play a legal game of chess, from start to
> finish, at GetClub.
That is a true statement, and to be completely fair, GitClub plays a
*much* better game than it once did and is surely more than a match
for the typical 1000-1300 amateur, at least above the lower play
levels of the program; it might even be better than that. We have
probably seen a *true*, single factor-of-2 or factor-of-3 improvement
in the last year, though that falls short of Sanny's monthly or even
weekly announcement of many-fold improvement.
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Date: 02 Dec 2008 17:26:40
From: help bot
Subject: Re: GetClub improved by 4 times today.
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On Dec 2, 7:54=A0pm, "Bob Campbell" <[email protected] > wrote:
> > Not any more. Today GetClub was improved 4 times.
>
> > So GetClub will play 4 times stronger.
>
> So now you "rate" it at 8000?
>
> You don't even understand math, let alone chess and programming.
Sanny is on a roll-- why stop now? His
program is the most "improved" of all time,
and by next year I expect it will have set a
record which may never be broken, except
if they invent /a machine/ that can lie.
But as to the math, I think there is some
confusion here. If a human were to say
he is twice as good now as he used to be,
one reasonable interpretation might be to
look at the rating scale of the pool of
players to which he belongs, and figure
he has moved up from where he was,
half-way to the very top.
The idea that you can just take the numer-
ical rating and double it seems misguided.
Look at some random results of that
approach: a player rated 100 goes to 200--
is this "twice as good"? A player at 500
goes to 1000-- is this? A player goes from
Dr. IMnes' peak USCF 2114, to 2450-- is
this that much less an improvement than
the guy who went from 100 to 200? I think
not; just the reverse in fact.
Sanny's nonsense about "twice as good"
is just that-- nonsense. You can't even
try to refute it using math until you have
mastered imaginary numbers, and chaos
theory so that you can grasp what goes on
inside Sanny's head.
-- help bot
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Date: 02 Dec 2008 08:01:47
From: help bot
Subject: Re: How to improve GetClub?
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On Dec 2, 9:57=A0am, "[email protected]" <[email protected] > wrote:
> > =A0 Naturally, these estimates cannot take
> > into account the fact that humans have
> > virtually limitless time to decide upon
> > their moves, while the GetClub engine
> > is strictly limited to a ridiculous amount
> > of time-- a big fat advantage for humans,
> > except those who choose not to take
> > advantage of it.
> There is a real problem with all this, put into sharp focus when I
> read in another message that Advance level takes one hour PER MOVE. =A0I
> think ratings simply must be determined in the context of a reasonable
> tournament time limit, imposed on both human and machine. =A0Something
> like 20 moves per hour, perhaps.
For decades, correspondence-chess ratings
have been used to gauge the success, if not
the speed, of chessplayers, relative to one
another; thus, your limitation almost seems
/contrived/ to victimize the hated GetClub
program (what other program is this slow?).
> =A0Under such limitations we would see
> much lower ratings for GitClub. =A0 For one thing, any level beyond
> Normal would likely have a rating that approaches zero, because a game
> would never, ever be finished in time.
I agree. If we were to arbitrarily assign a
"N/A" or not applicable designation to those
levels at GetClub which can't make time
controls, that would leave only the lowest
levels; and if forced to /compete/ on equal
terms, their ratings would be abysmal.
But let's take this one step further-- what
might happen to the results and ratings of
human players at the GetClub site?
As we've seen with Sanny as absolute
dictator, virtually every snafu has resulted
in the human player being forfeited, or at
best the game is annihilated completely,
right along with the human player's usual
advantage on the board.
I've mentioned this numerous times
before, but it is worth reminding folks that
the ratings we have now on GC include
such things as /negotiated results/, such
as Mr. Kingston's "un-lost" game, or the
several attempts by nomorechess to fix
the numerous problems which Sanny
ruled as wins for his early, god-awful
program. This was back in the days
when GetClub was not even playing legal
chess-- something which Sanny's critics
seem to forget.
How far we've come! Now it is possible to
play a legal game of chess, from start to
finish, at GetClub.
Incidentally, in my most recent game I
noticed the GetClub program showing
extremely deep search depths; granted,
this is either fraudulent or else the chess
engine is some sort of selective-search
throwback, but the fact remains that at
the end of each game, GetClub now
sees its own demise coming -- well in
advance (i.e. mate-in-ten) -- and resigns.
The knee-jerk critics are embarassed
once again in that a complete duffer, who
did not even know the rules of chess, has
produced a contraption which is better at
chess resignation than they could ever
hope to be. This is just one more
example of the fine progress at GetClub.
-- help bot
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Date: 02 Dec 2008 07:00:02
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: GetClub improved by 4 times today.
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>
> Not any more. Today GetClub was improved 4 times.
By now GitClub must be thousands of times better than it was a year or
so back, and, if this were actually true, it would slice, dice, chop,
and mince anything or anyone in the world like carrots. However, as
this is not the case, perhaps GitClub is not *quite* as good as all
that?
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Date: 02 Dec 2008 06:57:08
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: How to improve GetClub?
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On Dec 1, 1:16=A0pm, help bot <[email protected] > wrote:
> =A0 =A0Here are some better estimates, based
> on somewhat better nothingness than what
> you did not use in your non-calculations:
>
> =A0 Baby =A01000
>
> =A0 Beginner =A01200
>
> =A0 Easy =A01400
>
> =A0 Normal =A01600
>
> =A0 Master =A01750
>
> =A0 Advance =A01900
>
> =A0 Naturally, these estimates cannot take
> into account the fact that humans have
> virtually limitless time to decide upon
> their moves, while the GetClub engine
> is strictly limited to a ridiculous amount
> of time-- a big fat advantage for humans,
> except those who choose not to take
> advantage of it.
There is a real problem with all this, put into sharp focus when I
read in another message that Advance level takes one hour PER MOVE. I
think ratings simply must be determined in the context of a reasonable
tournament time limit, imposed on both human and machine. Something
like 20 moves per hour, perhaps. Under such limitations we would see
much lower ratings for GitClub. For one thing, any level beyond
Normal would likely have a rating that approaches zero, because a game
would never, ever be finished in time.
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Date: 02 Dec 2008 02:47:10
From: Sanny
Subject: GetClub improved by 4 times today.
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> GC can land tactical death-blows, but it is
> not consistent and it still is beaten like a
> carrot by all those other chess engines
> the hateful critics are surreptitiously
> using (to protect their fragile egos).
Not any more. Today GetClub was improved 4 times.
So GetClub will play 4 times stronger.
I played against Jester and found it is playing much stronger now.
With the recent improvement.
Beginner will play like Easy Level
Easy will play like Normal Level
Normal will play like Master Level
and Master will play like Advance Level.
Go and play and tell me how you feel now.
Bye
Sanny
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
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Date: 02 Dec 2008 19:54:18
From: Bob Campbell
Subject: Re: GetClub improved by 4 times today.
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"Sanny" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>> GC can land tactical death-blows, but it is
>> not consistent and it still is beaten like a
>> carrot by all those other chess engines
>> the hateful critics are surreptitiously
>> using (to protect their fragile egos).
>
> Not any more. Today GetClub was improved 4 times.
>
> So GetClub will play 4 times stronger.
So now you "rate" it at 8000?
You don't even understand math, let alone chess and programming.
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Date: 01 Dec 2008 21:48:44
From: Sanny
Subject: Game with Advance Level !!!
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Help Bot Played against the top level Advance which thinks 1 hour per
move.
Advance level was a pawn up at 12th move.
At 21st move Help Bot trapped the Rook and Bishop. And Advance traded
Bishop and pawn for a Rook.
Now at 23rd move the game was equal.
On 25th move Knight took Bishop and then on 27th move Help Bot took
the Pawn.
Now on 30th move Help Bot was a pawn up.
As Help Bot had Rook with 5 pawns while Advance had Knight with 6
pawns. So Help bot was 1 pawn ahead.
On 42 move Help Bot took one more pawn.
Now Help Bot can easily get the Queen and win.
Help Bot Exchanged Rook with Knight for fast ending. But GetClub
refused to take Rook as it was seeing the Queen promotion.
On 47th Move Advance Level Resigned the game. As it saw Maste in 10.
Game Played between help bot and advance at GetClub.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
help bot: (Black)
advance: (White)
Game Played at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
View Recorded Game: http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?id=DM31747&game=Chess
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
White -- Black
(advance) -- (help bot)
1. e2-e4{4} c7-c5{4}
2. Ng1-f3{0} g7-g6{4}
3. d2-d4{0} c5-d4{2}
4. Nf3-d4{0} Bf8-g7{4}
5. Bc1-e3{2466} Ng8-f6{88}
6. Nb1-c3{9032} d7-d6{66}
7. Bf1-b5{1528} Bc8-d7{1186}
8. Ke1-g1{2586} Ke8-g8{56}
9. Qd1-f3{3480} Nf6-g4{106}
10. Bb5-d7{2620} Ng4-e3{628}
11. Nd4-e6{2774} f7-e6{1356}
12. Bd7-e6{2472} Kg8-h8{22}
13. Qf3-e3{1310} Nb8-a6{210}
14. Nc3-d1{2562} Na6-c5{148}
15. Be6-c4{1474} Ra8-c8{7832}
16. Ra1-c1{2306} Qd8-a5{2918}
17. h2-h3{1682} Qa5-b4{134}
18. Bc4-d5{5314} e7-e6{182}
19. a2-a3{1608} Qb4-d4{432}
20. Qe3-d4{1724} Bg7-d4{46}
21. c2-c3{2482} Nc5-d3{144}
22. c3-d4{2972} Rc8-c1{112}
23. Bd5-e6{1426} Nd3-f4{46}
24. d4-d5{2176} Nf4-e6{58}
25. d5-e6{2526} Rf8-e8{12}
26. Nd1-e3{3188} Rc1-f1{64}
27. Kg1-f1{3252} Re8-e6{14}
28. f2-f3{1346} Re6-e8{66}
29. b2-b3{2894} b7-b5{164}
30. Kf1-e2{2254} Re8-c8{64}
31. Ke2-d3{1666} Kh8-g7{46}
32. f3-f4{2166} Rc8-c1{562}
33. f4-f5{2462} Kg7-f6{272}
34. f5-g6{2068} h7-g6{92}
35. Kd3-d4{2140} Kf6-e6{29844}
36. Ne3-d5{0} g6-g5{140}
37. b3-b4{6500} Rc1-d1{29172}
38. Kd4-e3{2164} Ke6-e5{490}
39. Nd5-c3{3784} Rd1-e1{350}
40. Ke3-d3{4534} a7-a6{96}
41. Nc3-d5{5676} Re1-a1{864}
42. a3-a4{2428} b5-a4{128}
43. Nd5-e3{1668} Ra1-a3{78}
44. Kd3-d2{3590} Ra3-e3{42}
45. Kd2-c1{2590} Re3-e2{1156}
46. b4-b5{8466} a4-a3{20}
47. b5-b6{186}
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
help bot: (Black)
advance: (White)
Game Played at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
View Recorded Game: http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?id=DM31747&game=Chess
So it was a tough fight between Help Bot and Advance Level.
Bye
Sanny
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
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Date: 01 Dec 2008 15:16:43
From: Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (Wlod)
Subject: Re: How to improve GetClub?
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On Nov 30, 11:40 pm, Sanny <[email protected] > wrote:
> how to improve GetClub further.
The real challenge is how to make it worse?!
I am sure that you will manage anyway.
Wlod
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Date: 01 Dec 2008 15:14:43
From: Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (Wlod)
Subject: Re: How to improve GetClub?
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On Nov 30, 11:40 pm, Sanny <[email protected] > wrote:
> how to improve GetClub further.
Replace the present owner by a new one.
Wlod
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Date: 01 Dec 2008 12:16:51
From: help bot
Subject: Re: How to improve GetClub?
|
On Dec 1, 2:24=A0pm, "[email protected]" <[email protected] > wrote:
> If, despite the many improvements of factors of three and so on,
> GitClub is still not winning, what ratings would you now assign?
>
> For instance,
>
> Baby (carrot) level =A0 1000
> Beginner =A01100
> Easy =A01300
> Normal 1400
> Master 1500
>
> might be a place to start your estimates? =A0I base this on nothing, of
> course, in imitation of your own method.
Also based on nothing, I think it is obvious
that your numbers -- like Sanny's -- are
bunched too closely together. In addition,
there is an unexplained gap between the
Beginner level and Easy level, of twice your
"normal" 100-point gap.
Here are some better estimates, based
on somewhat better nothingness than what
you did not use in your non-calculations:
Baby 1000
Beginner 1200
Easy 1400
Normal 1600
Master 1750
Advance 1900
Naturally, these estimates cannot take
into account the fact that humans have
virtually limitless time to decide upon
their moves, while the GetClub engine
is strictly limited to a ridiculous amount
of time-- a big fat advantage for humans,
except those who choose not to take
advantage of it.
Seriously though, there have been a
few test games played under random
conditions between a program of
almost-known strength and GC. From
what I saw they were well-matched, and
this indicates that lowball estimates of
1000-to-1500 are way off base.
As they say in the investment world:
don't confuse the stock with the company.
A great company might be a poor stock,
e.g., if it hands its profits to the CEO in the
form of stock options instead of giving its
profits to all shareholders.
Ergo, don't confuse the GetClub chess
engine's performance with Sanny's
record here in rgc. On the higher levels,
GC can land tactical death-blows, but it is
not consistent and it still is beaten like a
carrot by all those other chess engines
the hateful critics are surreptitiously
using (to protect their fragile egos).
-- help bot
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Date: 01 Dec 2008 11:24:11
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: How to improve GetClub?
|
> A few things were corrected at GetClub today. Still GetClub is not
> winning.
If, despite the many improvements of factors of three and so on,
GitClub is still not winning, what ratings would you now assign?
For instance,
Baby (carrot) level 1000
Beginner 1100
Easy 1300
Normal 1400
Master 1500
might be a place to start your estimates? I base this on nothing, of
course, in imitation of your own method.
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