How do I win from here?

Main

Date: 08 Mar 2008 17:50:56
From: Terry
Subject: How do I win from here?

http://i25.tinypic.com/1zp6xpx.png

Date: 08 Mar 2008 15:27:40
From:
Subject: Re: How do I win from here?

On 8, 5:50=A0pm, Terry <[email protected] > wrote:
> http://i25.tinypic.com/1zp6xpx.png

You don't say whose move it is, but I don't think it matters. White
has no chance to obtain a passed g-pawn. The best he can hope for is a
situation with an h-pawn vs. no black pawns. That is a dead draw, with
or without rooks on the board.

Date: 11 Mar 2008 14:55:34
From:
Subject: Re: How do I win from here?

On 11, 4:39=A0pm, help bot <[email protected] > wrote:
>
> =A0 P.S.: I can't beat Fritz, but I will gladly
> demonstrate how to win this at GetClub.

Other notable feats our Greg can pull off:

Taking candy from a baby.
Getting water to flow downhill.
Hitting the broad side of a barn with a shotgun at five paces.
Pouring water out of a boot when the instructions are written on the
sole.
Hitting a bull in the butt with a bass fiddle.
Falling off a log.
Spelling "cat."

Date: 12 Mar 2008 13:18:45
From: David Richerby
Subject: Re: How do I win from here?

<[email protected] > wrote:
> Spelling "cat."

Is a spelling cat like a spelling bee?

Dave.

--
David Richerby Portable Gnome (TM): it's like a
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ smiling garden ornament but you can
take it anywhere!

Date: 11 Mar 2008 13:39:20
From: help bot
Subject: Re: How do I win from here?

On 11, 8:22 am, [email protected] wrote:

> > Maybe
> > someone can "view" the game, and tell us
> > what the next move was?
>
> That is quite irrelevant to a correct evaluation of the position.

Of course, a man who cannot set up the
correct position would think that.

The reason I want to know is that White
has an obligation to make only *legal*
moves.

> The OP was not asking "What stupid moves should I wish my opponent
> will make?", yet that is really the only kind of answer you have
> provided.

To the contrary, this is precisely the kind
of thing which would answer the original
question. One example is that Black must
not trade Rooks, unless his King can seize
the /distant opposition/ (God help us!) or if
his King was foolishly allowed to advance.

> > > given that the
> > > white king is on the second rank and the black rook on the fourth, in
> > > the given position.

Are you *sure* you now have the "given
position" set up right this time?

> > > Black plays, say, 1...Rc3, and the white king is
> > > likely to stay on his two back ranks indefinitely.

No. White's best tries include advancing
the King, even if he can be driven back or
forced to retreat. (This is because the
Rook simply can't do what a King can do
in close quarters. The Rook is superior
in exerting influence /from afar/.)

> Then please demonstrate a method by which, after 1...Rc3, White can
> advance his king beyond the second rank without allowing an exchange
> of rooks that leaves a drawn position.

I cannot demonstrate a forced win here,
because the position is a theoretical draw;
however, I have already discussed the
fact that Jose Capablanca routinely won
theoretically-drawn positions with all the
pawns on one side and one Rook apiece.
I could be mistaken, but in general his
opposition were often described as chess
"masters", perhaps meaning local
masters, as opposed to international
ones.

It requires a swindle; in other words, the
opponent must defend poorly, or at least
make one crucial blunder. Here, that
would include trading Rooks at the wrong
time, or allowing the White King to
approach and not making him pay dearly
by in turn winning his base pawn.

I note that, even having set up the wrong
position, you came up with Fritz' move,
...Rc3. Am I expected to defeat Fritz-- a
player twice my size?

In your original answer -- the one I took
exception to -- you indicated that it was
not known who was on move; to this I will
add that the question itself implied that
the superior player -- the one trying to
win -- ought to be on move, else how can
we tell him what he should do next?

Thus, my research assumed that the
actual position in the link had White on
move, and I was surprised to find that we
were just one tempo away from a forced
win *if* Black traded Rooks. Clicking on
"Black to move", I found that he often had
just one way to draw and a multitude of
table-base-perfect losses, but clicking
"White to move" was a different story:
here it was necessary for the player of
the Black pieces to defend accurately,
like a computer. (Those guys weren't
using Fritz, were they?)

> > The trouble here is not that
> > White's King cannot move around;
>
> You seem to have changed your tune. Earlier you said a key to
> victory was for White to advance his king.

You are confused. Read it again, s-l-o-w-l-y.
(The only inconsistency lies in your ability to
set up the correct position.)

> > it is
> > that White's Rook cannot be utilized to
> > defend the base pawn without becoming
> > inactive; that, and the fact that if Black's
> > Rook keeps the checking distance, it
> > can harry the White King at will with
> > impunity.
>
> In other words, there is no way White can win against even modestly
> competent play.

At the master level, yes. At Yahoo!, I
suspect "reasonably competent" has a
very different meaning: not often hanging
pieces outright. Just look at the original
question: "how do I win this?"; does this
not tell us that the asker is a weak player,
and his opponent has somehow managed
to lose a pawn to him? These are no
Masters, nor even Experts, nor Class A
players, my friend; all things are possible!
Most tournament players I know would
never ask such a question; Class B or C
players would already know the answer,
or at least /think/ they know.

> > (Things are so much simpler
> > with Queens, don't you know, because
> > unlike with a Rook, the base pawn can
> > be sacrificed in return for a two-man
> > mating attack!)
>
> Yes, and things are so much simpler in a knife fight if someone
> hands you an AK-47.

Semi-automatics have a tendency to
jam. I would prefer a flamethrower,
since even if it were to jam, the enemy
would be too busy *running away* to
notice!

> It would be so much simpler finding a drink in the
> Sahara if it was dotted with lakes like Minnesota.

Camels are the answer; they know where
the water is hiding, and unlike your Yugo car,
can travel many miles without water. Your
problem is that you go someplace like /that/,
expecting to find the one thing it lacks! I go
there to get away from it all.

> It would have been
> so much simpler for General Lee at Gettysburg if the Union Army had
> recruited chickens instead of men.

What would he feed them? Men are dumb
animals who can live on just about anything,
and what's more, they have hands in which
can be carried guns and stuff. Chickens
have no hands.

> > > An exchange of
> > > rooks in such a situation leaves the black king in fine position to
> > > deal with the white pawns, for example 2.Re3 Rxe3 3.Kxe3 Ke5 and it's
> > > a dead draw.
>
> > Once again, you have analyzed the
> > **wrong position**.
>
> No, I just transcribed one move incorrectly

I see; you are one of those guys who has,
shall I say, difficulties in admitting even the
smallest mistake. This is the second time
I have found you to be giving "analysis" of
the wrong position, due to carelessness.

> hitting "e" instead of
> "f". Here is the sequence I had in mind:
>
> 1... Rc3 2. Re3 Rxe3 3. Kxe3 Kf5 4. Kf3 Ke5 -- Now it's a dead draw

With Black on move, I already stated that
things are a lot tougher. The reason is that
the White King can be cut off and Rook
exchanges lead to a drawable K & p ending.

Yet even with White to move, my computer
just goes 'round and 'round in circles, trying
not to repeat the position. That is definitely
*not* the approach chosen by GM Jose
Capablanca in his now-famous unjust wins!
In order to pull off a swindle, you have to get
creative.

> for example 5. g4 hxg4+ 6. Kxg4 Kf6 7. h5 Kg7 etc. If White does not
> advance his pawn, the kings just shuffle back and forth ad infinitum.

Obviously, any trade at g4 will leave the
worst kind of pawns: ratpackers, or Rook-
pawns, which is nearly hopeless.

> > The graphic link at
> > the top of this thread shows the Black
> > King cannot reach the e5 square in
> > one move, since it sits on g6.
>
> See above correction.

I see; so now you want the credit for
correcting your own mistake! Sorry, but
I got there first.

> > In the original post, it was not stated
> > who was on-move, and the question
> > itself ,"how do I win this", implied it was
> > White to move (why ask how you can
> > win, if you are behind?).
>
> And why try to answer that question with magical thinking, rather
> than chess logic?

"Logic" is why I jumped in, for you went
too far in stating that "the best that could
be hoped for" was the Rook-pawn scenario.

In my opinion, that is just about the exact
opposite of the truth. Your shallow approach
is the reason I felt compelled to make any
correction; had you given the poor chap a
better answer, I would have left it alone, as
I did with the recent "Monkee" thread. Don't
take my word for it-- check it for yourself; you
will say "I'm a believer".

-- help bot

P.S.: I can't beat Fritz, but I will gladly
demonstrate how to win this at GetClub.

Date: 11 Mar 2008 06:22:10
From:
Subject: Re: How do I win from here?

On 10, 9:17=A0pm, help bot <[email protected] > wrote:
> On 10, 7:46 pm, [email protected] wrote:
>
> > =A0 Ah, then perhaps you will demonstrate to us, Greg, how White wins
> > from the OP's given position. Or even manages to "advance his king" or
> > "exchange rooks" advantageously, which you consider to be the paths to
> > victory.
>
> =A0 Actually, the credit belongs to the creators
> of the endgame table bases, not me. =A0

> I merely
> did some very simple research.

That's a first for you, Greg. Then please tell us, O Great One, what
winning method the tablebase oracle revealed to you, aside from hoping
that Black puts his rook en prise.

> Maybe
> someone can "view" the game, and tell us
> what the next move was?

That is quite irrelevant to a correct evaluation of the position.
The OP was not asking "What stupid moves should I wish my opponent
will make?", yet that is really the only kind of answer you have
provided.

> > given that the
> > white king is on the second rank and the black rook on the fourth, in
> > the given position. Black plays, say, 1...Rc3, and the white king is
> > likely to stay on his two back ranks indefinitely.
>
> =A0 I disagree. =A0

Then please demonstrate a method by which, after 1...Rc3, White can
advance his king beyond the second rank without allowing an exchange
of rooks that leaves a drawn position.

> The trouble here is not that
> White's King cannot move around;

You seem to have changed your tune. Earlier you said a key to
victory was for White to advance his king.

> it is
> that White's Rook cannot be utilized to
> defend the base pawn without becoming
> inactive; that, and the fact that if Black's
> Rook keeps the checking distance, it
> can harry the White King at will with
> impunity. =A0

In other words, there is no way White can win against even modestly
competent play.

> (Things are so much simpler
> with Queens, don't you know, because
> unlike with a Rook, the base pawn can
> be sacrificed in return for a two-man
> mating attack!)

Yes, and things are so much simpler in a knife fight if someone
hands you an AK-47. It would be so much simpler finding a drink in the
Sahara if it was dotted with lakes like Minnesota. It would have been
so much simpler for General Lee at Gettysburg if the Union Army had
recruited chickens instead of men.

> > An exchange of
> > rooks in such a situation leaves the black king in fine position to
> > deal with the white pawns, for example 2.Re3 Rxe3 3.Kxe3 Ke5 and it's
> > a dead draw.
>
> =A0 Once again, you have analyzed the
> **wrong position**. =A0

No, I just transcribed one move incorrectly, hitting "e" instead of
"f". Here is the sequence I had in mind:

1... Rc3 2. Re3 Rxe3 3. Kxe3 Kf5 4. Kf3 Ke5 -- Now it's a dead draw,
for example 5. g4 hxg4+ 6. Kxg4 Kf6 7. h5 Kg7 etc. If White does not
advance his pawn, the kings just shuffle back and forth ad infinitum.

> The graphic link at
> the top of this thread shows the Black
> King cannot reach the e5 square in
> one move, since it sits on g6.

See above correction.

> =A0 In the original post, it was not stated
> who was on-move, and the question
> itself ,"how do I win this", implied it was
> White to move (why ask how you can
> win, if you are behind?).

And why try to answer that question with magical thinking, rather
than chess logic?

> =A0With Black on
> move, things are even tougher here.

No, it's a draw no matter who is to move.

Date: 10 Mar 2008 18:17:30
From: help bot
Subject: Re: How do I win from here?

On 10, 7:46 pm, [email protected] wrote:

> Ah, then perhaps you will demonstrate to us, Greg, how White wins
> from the OP's given position. Or even manages to "advance his king" or
> "exchange rooks" advantageously, which you consider to be the paths to
> victory.

Actually, the credit belongs to the creators
of the endgame table bases, not me. I merely
did some very simple research.

> Advancing the king seems particularly problematic

Since it was determined (correct me if I am
wrong) that it was Black to move, the issue
of what to do next clearly depends on the
opponent's unknown choice of move. Maybe
someone can "view" the game, and tell us
what that was?

> given that the
> white king is on the second rank and the black rook on the fourth, in
> the given position. Black plays, say, 1...Rc3, and the white king is
> likely to stay on his two back ranks indefinitely.

I disagree. The trouble here is not that
White's King cannot move around; it is
that White's Rook cannot be utilized to
defend the base pawn without becoming
inactive; that, and the fact that if Black's
Rook keeps the checking distance, it
can harry the White King at will with
impunity. (Things are so much simpler
with Queens, don't you know, because
unlike with a Rook, the base pawn can
be sacrificed in return for a two-man
mating attack!)

> An exchange of
> rooks in such a situation leaves the black king in fine position to
> deal with the white pawns, for example 2.Re3 Rxe3 3.Kxe3 Ke5 and it's
> a dead draw.

Once again, you have analyzed the
**wrong position**. The graphic link at
the top of this thread shows the Black
King cannot reach the e5 square in
one move, since it sits on g6.

I daresay this is hardly the first time I
have had to point out such a careless
error on your part, TK. In order to make
heads or tails of what is going on, you
really do need to learn to set up the
pieces correctly; this is a very common
problem for beginners. Here, I'll make it
easy for you:

http://i25.tinypic.com/1zp6xpx.png

Note well where the pieces actually
sit on the board: the Black King is on g6,
for instance. The King is allowed to move
just one square at a time, so you cannot
get to e5 in just one move.

----------------------------------------------------------

In the original post, it was not stated
who was on-move, and the question
itself ,"how do I win this", implied it was
White to move (why ask how you can
win, if you are behind?). With Black on
move, things are even tougher here.

-- help bot

Date: 10 Mar 2008 17:46:48
From:
Subject: Re: How do I win from here?

On 10, 7:41=A0pm, help bot <[email protected] > wrote:
> On 10, 5:39 pm, [email protected] wrote:
>
> > =A0 Greg, I hope no one ever hires you as a chess teacher. And I
> > recommend you never try to pass yourself off as a chess teacher, or
> > competent analyst. As it stands now, you are merely open to ridicule
> > here by anyone who knows a knight from a bishop. Don't lay yourself
> > open to prosecution for fraud, false advertising, etc.
>
> =A0 Your desperate need to "change the subject"
> is duly noted. =A0If you don't wish to discuss your
> gaffe any longer, I understand-- really, I do.

Ah, then perhaps you will demonstrate to us, Greg, how White wins
from the OP's given position. Or even manages to "advance his king" or
"exchange rooks" advantageously, which you consider to be the paths to
victory.
Advancing the king seems particularly problematic given that the
white king is on the second rank and the black rook on the fourth, in
the given position. Black plays, say, 1...Rc3, and the white king is
likely to stay on his two back ranks indefinitely. An exchange of
rooks in such a situation leaves the black king in fine position to
deal with the white pawns, for example 2.Re3 Rxe3 3.Kxe3 Ke5 and it's
a dead draw.
If your point is merely that White can win against stupid moves, and
I have seen nothing else from you in this thread, this can hardly be
considered any worthwhile insight. It does the OP a disservice, and is
yet another example (among many) of your typical laziness.

Date: 10 Mar 2008 16:41:26
From: help bot
Subject: Re: How do I win from here?

On 10, 5:39 pm, [email protected] wrote:

> Greg, I hope no one ever hires you as a chess teacher. And I
> recommend you never try to pass yourself off as a chess teacher, or
> competent analyst. As it stands now, you are merely open to ridicule
> here by anyone who knows a knight from a bishop. Don't lay yourself
> open to prosecution for fraud, false advertising, etc.

Your desperate need to "change the subject"
is duly noted. If you don't wish to discuss your
gaffe any longer, I understand-- really, I do.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Personally, I think your shallowness argues
strongly against *you* attempting to teach
chess. What limits /my/ ambitions in that
regard are:

1) Many players are priily interested in
booking up on the openings, and here I have
little in the way of expertise insofar as rote
recitations of main line theory.

2) Chess players in my area are some of the
cheapest, tightest people I have ever known.
These guys will paw a book they obviously
desire, then tell you they can't afford to buy
it unless their wife gives her approval. That's
a $5 book. A ten dollar book requires prior
approval by the wife, the kids, the dog, etc.
I expect the same -- if not worse -- when it
comes to paying for lessons.

3) Scholastic chess is the key; get some
ten-year-olds to take lessons and you are
set. Parents *will* spend money for chess
lessons, but then, you have to put up with
kids who, by and large, fit problem number
one above, have little in the way of patience,
and who expect "instant results" in the way
of consistent, monster-size rating gains.

4) My advice is to get really good at tactics,
and for this you don't need a human teacher;
Fritz will suffice. I am obsolete, except in
my ability to explain the *why* of Fritz's
killer moves.

-- help bot

Date: 10 Mar 2008 15:39:41
From:
Subject: Re: How do I win from here?

On 10, 5:37=A0pm, help bot <[email protected] > wrote:
> On 10, 7:54 am, [email protected] wrote:
>
> > > =A0 I checked the endgame table bases to see
> > > just how badly Black would need to play
> > > before it becomes a theoretical win; much to
> > > my surprise, it wasn't all that improbable; any
> > > Rook trade on White's fourth rank led to a
> > > forced win, and even trades on the third rank
> > > could lead to a win if Black's King were in
> > > position for defense only, which it obviously
> > > is now.
>
> > =A0 Please explain in detail how, in this position, White can force any
> > exchange of rooks, advantageous or otherwise.
>
> =A0 First of all, it was later determined to be
> Black's move here, and the guy asking how
> to win was apparently the one *down* a
> pawn. =A0The proper question should then be,
> "how do I /draw/ this?"
>
> =A0 Secondly, you forgot to provide the quote
> of me stating it could be done "by force".
> Once you provide that quotation, then we
> can move on to my proof or discussion of
> how it is done. =A0See: Robert's Rules of
> Disorder for the proper procedures.
>
> > > =A0 So the statement that the best that White
> > > could hope for was such and such, was just
> > > plain wrong. =A0It turns out that he can try to
> > > win this by advancing his King--
>
> > =A0 Yes, and one can try to reach the moon in a Piper Cub.
>
> =A0 Bad idea. =A0There are rings of radiation all
> 'round the Earth, and even if you somehow
> managed to tweak the engines so they no
> longer required oxygen (solar power?), you
> would probably be killed.
>
> > > but it won't
> > > work if the guy who is down a pawn knows
> > > his stuff
>
> > =A0 Thank you for agreeing with my conclusion about this position.
>
> =A0 Obviously, the conclusion posted by you
> was mistaken, as I have already shown.
> It would have been alright if you had taken
> care to state facts, like the fact that it is a
> "theoretical draw". =A0This means that with
> *best play*, the result will be a draw. =A0Too
> bad you got careless once again, in your
> usual manner. =A0It was of course I who first
> mentioned the terms "theoretical draw"
> and "best play" here, not you.
>
> =A0 Here is something to mull over, while you
> are steaming about getting caught in yet
> another careless error: Jose Capablanca
> used to win "theoretically drawn" positions
> in Rook endings *routinely*; sometimes,
> these positions had all the pawns on the
> same side of the board! =A0Today, it would
> be considered something of a disaster if
> a strong player did not manage to hold
> such a position, but weak players are
> every bit as "capable" as the masters of
> old who lost routinely to GM Capablanca.
>
> =A0 In their defense, there were normally
> *more* than just three pawns left; but in
> defense of weak players, that is only a
> question of degree (of incompetence). =A0If
> we wanted to focus on mere questions of
> degree, we could easily get bogged down
> on such minuscule errors as miscalculating
> one's rating at 2300+, rather than 2250ish;
> but we are not /that/ petty. =A0Indeed, we are
> the type which forgives accidental errors of
> no real import, looking to matters of
> principle as more worthy of our efforts.
>
> =A0 In that vein, I found your reply to be shallow
> and, upon due research, erroneous, since
> there is no reason whatever to assume a
> weak player will carefully avoid trading Rooks
> here. =A0When you look at the position after
> such a trade, it becomes apparent that
> White wins easily-- *if* he knows what he is
> doing. =A0Granted, odds are that neither player
> knows what he is doing, but this tends
> toward a more random result-- not an
> automatic draw, as between two GMs.
>
> =A0 -- help bot

Greg, I hope no one ever hires you as a chess teacher. And I
recommend you never try to pass yourself off as a chess teacher, or
competent analyst. As it stands now, you are merely open to ridicule
here by anyone who knows a knight from a bishop. Don't lay yourself
open to prosecution for fraud, false advertising, etc.

Date: 10 Mar 2008 14:37:50
From: help bot
Subject: Re: How do I win from here?

On 10, 7:54 am, [email protected] wrote:

> > I checked the endgame table bases to see
> > just how badly Black would need to play
> > before it becomes a theoretical win; much to
> > my surprise, it wasn't all that improbable; any
> > Rook trade on White's fourth rank led to a
> > forced win, and even trades on the third rank
> > could lead to a win if Black's King were in
> > position for defense only, which it obviously
> > is now.
>
> Please explain in detail how, in this position, White can force any
> exchange of rooks, advantageous or otherwise.

First of all, it was later determined to be
Black's move here, and the guy asking how
to win was apparently the one *down* a
pawn. The proper question should then be,
"how do I /draw/ this?"

Secondly, you forgot to provide the quote
of me stating it could be done "by force".
Once you provide that quotation, then we
can move on to my proof or discussion of
how it is done. See: Robert's Rules of
Disorder for the proper procedures.

> > So the statement that the best that White
> > could hope for was such and such, was just
> > plain wrong. It turns out that he can try to
> > win this by advancing his King--
>
> Yes, and one can try to reach the moon in a Piper Cub.

Bad idea. There are rings of radiation all
'round the Earth, and even if you somehow
managed to tweak the engines so they no
longer required oxygen (solar power?), you
would probably be killed.

> > but it won't
> > work if the guy who is down a pawn knows
> > his stuff
>
> Thank you for agreeing with my conclusion about this position.

Obviously, the conclusion posted by you
was mistaken, as I have already shown.
It would have been alright if you had taken
care to state facts, like the fact that it is a
"theoretical draw". This means that with
*best play*, the result will be a draw. Too
bad you got careless once again, in your
usual manner. It was of course I who first
mentioned the terms "theoretical draw"
and "best play" here, not you.

Here is something to mull over, while you
are steaming about getting caught in yet
another careless error: Jose Capablanca
used to win "theoretically drawn" positions
in Rook endings *routinely*; sometimes,
these positions had all the pawns on the
same side of the board! Today, it would
be considered something of a disaster if
a strong player did not manage to hold
such a position, but weak players are
every bit as "capable" as the masters of
old who lost routinely to GM Capablanca.

In their defense, there were normally
*more* than just three pawns left; but in
defense of weak players, that is only a
question of degree (of incompetence). If
we wanted to focus on mere questions of
degree, we could easily get bogged down
on such minuscule errors as miscalculating
one's rating at 2300+, rather than 2250ish;
but we are not /that/ petty. Indeed, we are
the type which forgives accidental errors of
no real import, looking to matters of
principle as more worthy of our efforts.

In that vein, I found your reply to be shallow
and, upon due research, erroneous, since
there is no reason whatever to assume a
weak player will carefully avoid trading Rooks
here. When you look at the position after
such a trade, it becomes apparent that
White wins easily-- *if* he knows what he is
doing. Granted, odds are that neither player
knows what he is doing, but this tends
toward a more random result-- not an
automatic draw, as between two GMs.

-- help bot

Date: 10 Mar 2008 05:54:19
From:
Subject: Re: How do I win from here?

On 10, 2:19=A0am, help bot <[email protected] > wrote:
>
> =A0 I checked the endgame table bases to see
> just how badly Black would need to play
> before it becomes a theoretical win; much to
> my surprise, it wasn't all that improbable; any
> Rook trade on White's fourth rank led to a
> forced win, and even trades on the third rank
> could lead to a win if Black's King were in
> position for defense only, which it obviously
> is now.

Please explain in detail how, in this position, White can force any
exchange of rooks, advantageous or otherwise.

> =A0 So the statement that the best that White
> could hope for was such and such, was just
> plain wrong. =A0It turns out that he can try to
> win this by advancing his King--

Yes, and one can try to reach the moon in a Piper Cub.

> but it won't
> work if the guy who is down a pawn knows
> his stuff

Thank you for agreeing with my conclusion about this position.

> (which he may well not). =A0 It's just
> another small goof-- like all the rest; the
> thing to do is learn from it; try not to be
> quite so shallow in your thinking the next
> time.

The OP asked: How do I win from here? Greg's answer: Hope for a big
mistake. He considers this "deep thinking."

Date: 09 Mar 2008 23:43:32
From: help bot
Subject: Re: How do I win from here?

On 9, 12:34 pm, chasmad <[email protected] > wrote:

> According to Larry Evans, the position was adjourned and the player of
> the Black pieces had a fatal heart attack prior to resumption. :-)

But here, White was up a pawn!

In the original story, the guy who refused
to resign had a lost position, right? He was
supposedly an evil scum for not resigning,
though I believe Larry Evans actually
admitted his error after his story was easily
debunked by Edward Winter. This is one
case where LE admitted he was confused,
instead of attacking the messenger or
insisting it was "a typo".

It did not occur to me to examine the
entire screen to see if I could determine the
ratings of the two players in /this/ game,
until after Sanny mentioned something
about it here. To me, it's all a blur-- but
then, I am half-blind. I was able to make
out that they were playing at Yahoo, which
tells me it wasn't GM Dzindzi vs. Gary
Kasparov (the damned ICC rating-hogs!).

Generally speaking, when I see Rybka or
other top players try to win such positions,
they do not lock up the pawns, but try hard
to maintain their "fluidity". In other words,
a Rybka would have pawns at g2 and h2,
not g3 and h4-- locked and practically
immobile. Come to think of it, this also
describes how Gary Kasparov used to
handle the Sicilian /opening/, as Black.
Oh-- and a Rybka would have pawns on
both sides of the board! That makes
things a lot more complicated for the
defender.

Mr. Winter needs to learn that he is not
nearly-as-IMportant as Larry Evans; he
needs to learn to respect his betters--
even if they just make things up, and if
they can't spell and if they can't get their
dates or anything else right. Harrumph!

-- help bot

Date: 09 Mar 2008 23:19:45
From: help bot
Subject: Re: How do I win from here?

On 9, 8:45 am, [email protected] wrote:

> Yes, and White could also win if Black does not exchange pawns on g4
> when White advances, and instead allows the pawn to ch down and
> queen. And Black could win if White puts his rook en prise, or if
> White decides to move only his king and lets it be driven to the back
> rank and mated.
> I dare say Pee Wee Herman could win a boxing match against Evander
> Holyfield if Holyfield stood motionless with his hands at his sides.
> Further research indicates that if pigs had wings, they'd live in
> trees.

Some people just can't handle it when their
analysis is shown to be shallow, lacking in
creativity, or just plain mistaken!

I checked the endgame table bases to see
just how badly Black would need to play
before it becomes a theoretical win; much to
my surprise, it wasn't all that improbable; any
Rook trade on White's fourth rank led to a
forced win, and even trades on the third rank
could lead to a win if Black's King were in
position for defense only, which it obviously
is now.

So the statement that the best that White
could hope for was such and such, was just
plain wrong. It turns out that he can try to
win this by advancing his King-- but it won't
work if the guy who is down a pawn knows
his stuff (which he may well not). It's just
another small goof-- like all the rest; the
thing to do is learn from it; try not to be
quite so shallow in your thinking the next
time.

-- help bot

Date: 09 Mar 2008 23:09:59
From: help bot
Subject: Re: How do I win from here?

On 9, 7:04 am, David Richerby <[email protected] >
wrote:

> I agree -- there doesn't seem to be much to hope for, here. I'd be
> interested to know how the pawns got where they did. The usual maxim
> is `advanced the candidate first' -- that is, the pawn that can
> potentially become passed. In this case, the g-pawn. The problem
> here is that White has advanced his h-pawn and left the g-pawn
> backward and with no chance of becoming a passed pawn.

"Candidate first" is one maxim, but many
writers have advised players to advance
their Rook-pawns in Rook endings for the
simple reason that Jose Capablanca (and
others) used to win drawn positions quite
frequently in such a way that would have
been impossible had the defense traded
his Rook-pawn off. I've seen GMs do this
"without thinking" in blitz games, but not
as a winning attempt (only to avoid losing).

If there are any other duffers who doubt
the possibility of winning this, I would refer
them to the endgame table bases, which
indicate a multitude of won positions for
White, should Black make a single error
(such as trading Rooks unwisely)

. In general, a player who asks how to
win a theoretically-drawn position is likely
to be playing another such player.

I still recall a game I had against a well-
booked USCF Expert, which resulted in a
theoretically-drawn Rook ending. The poor
fellow knew he was supposed to keep his
Rook a certain place until I advanced my
pawn to the sixth rank, then he was to go
to the eight rank and harry my King from
there. But instead of advancing my pawn,
I played a waiting move, and... you
guessed it-- he went to the eight rank a
move too early, and lost. Of course, I
don;t expect either of these two players
are nearly Experts... .

-- help bot

Date: 09 Mar 2008 10:34:06
From: chasmad
Subject: Re: How do I win from here?

On 9, 9:45=A0am, [email protected] wrote:
> =A0 Yes, and White could also win if Black does not exchange pawns on g4
> when White advances, and instead allows the pawn to ch down and
> queen. And Black could win if White puts his rook en prise, or if
> White decides to move only his king and lets it be driven to the back
> rank and mated.
> =A0 I dare say Pee Wee Herman could win a boxing match against Evander
> Holyfield if Holyfield stood motionless with his hands at his sides.
> Further research indicates that if pigs had wings, they'd live in
> trees
>
According to Larry Evans, the position was adjourned and the player of
the Black pieces had a fatal heart attack prior to resumption. :-)

Charles
(oh well, it's a good story)

Date: 09 Mar 2008 09:13:29
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: How do I win from here?

> =A0 Yes, and White could also win if Black does not exchange pawns on g4
> when White advances, and instead allows the pawn to ch down and
> queen. And Black could win if White puts his rook en prise, or if
> White decides to move only his king and lets it be driven to the back
> rank and mated.
> =A0 I dare say Pee Wee Herman could win a boxing match against Evander
> Holyfield if Holyfield stood motionless with his hands at his sides.
> Further research indicates that if pigs had wings, they'd live in
> trees.- Hide quoted text -

I enjoyed it a lot. You are in good mood.

In Chess a move cannot be said good on belief tthat suppose that
Opponent do not make that move. Yes for very weak players we can
assume such things.

Help Bot is considering them a weak player who will play bad moves.

Remember that story where Rybka lost even after having 10 extra
Queens?

Result in Chess very much depends on who the Opponent is. Usually for
a weak player the opponent is also a weak Player. Why will a master
play with beginner? He will try to have a match with Grand Master.

Since Terry is ~ 1200 his opponent is also ~1200 So may be they cannot
see the correct moves.

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

Date: 09 Mar 2008 06:45:33
From:
Subject: Re: How do I win from here?

On 9, 1:14=A0am, help bot <[email protected] > wrote:
> On 8, 6:27 pm, [email protected] wrote:
>
> > On 8, 5:50 pm, Terry <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > >http://i25.tinypic.com/1zp6xpx.png
>
> > =A0 You don't say whose move it is, but I don't think it matters. White
> > has no chance to obtain a passed g-pawn. The best he can hope for is a
> > situation with an h-pawn vs. no black pawns. That is a dead draw, with
> > or without rooks on the board.
>
> =A0 As usual, TK is mistaken.
>
> =A0 In this position, White could possibly win if
> Black makes the mistake of trading Rooks
> on the wrong square.

Yes, and White could also win if Black does not exchange pawns on g4
when White advances, and instead allows the pawn to ch down and
queen. And Black could win if White puts his rook en prise, or if
White decides to move only his king and lets it be driven to the back
rank and mated.
I dare say Pee Wee Herman could win a boxing match against Evander
Holyfield if Holyfield stood motionless with his hands at his sides.
Further research indicates that if pigs had wings, they'd live in
trees.

Date: 09 Mar 2008 12:04:47
From: David Richerby
Subject: Re: How do I win from here?

<[email protected] > wrote:
> Terry <[email protected]> wrote:
>> http://i25.tinypic.com/1zp6xpx.png
>
> You don't say whose move it is, but I don't think it matters.

For the record, the move list shows that the last move was 47.Re3-e5.

The position is

8/8/6k1/4R2p/2r4P/6P1/5K2/8 b - - 8 47

> White has no chance to obtain a passed g-pawn. The best he can hope
> for is a situation with an h-pawn vs. no black pawns. That is a dead
> draw, with or without rooks on the board.

I agree -- there doesn't seem to be much to hope for, here. I'd be
interested to know how the pawns got where they did. The usual maxim
is `advanced the candidate first' -- that is, the pawn that can
potentially become passed. In this case, the g-pawn. The problem
here is that White has advanced his h-pawn and left the g-pawn
backward and with no chance of becoming a passed pawn.

Dave.

--
David Richerby Flammable Vomit (TM): it's like a pile
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ of puke but it burns really easily!

Date: 08 Mar 2008 21:14:42
From: help bot
Subject: Re: How do I win from here?

On 8, 6:27 pm, [email protected] wrote:

> On 8, 5:50 pm, Terry <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >http://i25.tinypic.com/1zp6xpx.png
>
> You don't say whose move it is, but I don't think it matters. White
> has no chance to obtain a passed g-pawn. The best he can hope for is a
> situation with an h-pawn vs. no black pawns. That is a dead draw, with
> or without rooks on the board.

As usual, TK is mistaken.

In this position, White could possibly win if
Black makes the mistake of trading Rooks
on the wrong square.

As the game was not already agreed drawn,
it seems likely that the two players are not
exactly master-strength, so such an unwise
trade is far from impossible. The crucial
aspect would be the timing of the trade-- on
which squares the two Kings are at the time,
and whose turn it is to move.

For instance, if White were to interpose on
the second rank and exchange Rooks there,
his chances of winning are not good. But if
Black were to play a check on, say, the
forth rank, and after White interposes
exchange there, it is likely a forced win.

Unfortunately, the trade cannot be forced,
and if Black stays on his toes, White cannot
*safely* approach to try and force the Rooks
off. This is mainly because, if the g-pawn
goes, so goes all winning chances right
along with it.

Were White's pair of pawns closer to the
center, things might be different; even so, a
*skilled* player could manage a draw even
then.

In sum, White must *not* advance and trade
off his g-pawn. White can attempt to walk his
King forward, then trade Rooks or drive the
enemy King away from the defense of his
h-pawn, but with proper defense, this cannot
be forced and the position is therefore a
theoretical draw. It is certainly *not* the case
that the best that can be hoped for is a trade
with only a Rook-pawn remaining; that is
essentially a worst-case scenario-- barring
a Rook hang or self-mate.

-- help bot

Date: 11 Mar 2008 21:58:52
From: help bot
Subject: Re: How do I win from here?

On 11, 5:55 pm, [email protected] wrote:

> Taking candy from a baby.

That is a lot harder than you might expect.

> Getting water to flow downhill.

This at least is a reasonable idea-- unlike
the suggestion of trying to land a man on
the moon, passing through the Van der
Weil radiation belts. Van Mander? Van
de Camp? Van Allen? Van somebody.

> Hitting the broad side of a barn with a shotgun at five paces.

No one can reach *that far*. Not even
seven-footers.

> Pouring water out of a boot when the instructions are written on the
> sole.

More change-of-subject blather; of course
I could figure it out, once I figure out how to
get underneath to read the instructions.

> Hitting a bull in the butt with a bass fiddle.

Bad idea. Have I ever told you about the
woman who tried to beat off a grizzly bear
attack with a frying pan? The pan made it
through the ordeal okay, but as for her, she
was, well, eaten. She never recovered,
though her boyfriend's Timex eventually
/was/.

> Falling off a log.

More blather. I wish I had the full table-
bases, so I could more easily provide some
examples of positions where White wins
perforce. As it is, I have to manually
remove the Rooks, then shuffle the Kings
around to different positions, and observe
the win/draw results.

It is very difficult since I know how to
draw this; I have to guess just how does
a weak player think. Really, it was sooo
much easier to attempt this with White to
move!

> Spelling "cat."

Now you have gone too far-- it is just plain
silly to suggest that there is any three-letter
word I can't spell. Four or five letters, /okay/.
(Yes, I know that is a two-letter word!)

-- help bot