Help Bot Still at the Top !!!

Main

Date: 07 Apr 2008 23:47:50
From: Sanny
Subject: Help Bot Still at the Top !!!

Help bot is now at Top at GetClub Chess.

He Won: 346 and Lost: 25 and has got Highest Rating of 1528.

Chess Played at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

Any there one who can beat "Help Bot"s Record???

He played all games without taking help from any Computer and beat
records of all players and reached the Top Ranking.

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

Date: 11 Apr 2008 10:40:37
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: Help Bot Still at the Top !!!

bbb

Date: 11 Apr 2008 08:32:40
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: Help Bot Still at the Top !!!

> =A0 My recent improvement in results is
> probably the result of the fact that my
> "good" eye is functioning again; for a
> while, I was playing with that eye held
> shut, using powerful reading glasses to
> aid the weaker eye in seeing the board.

Yesterday the Game was inproved a lot. Play a game with Easy Level and
lets see how you face it. Yes, Beginner is still a kid for you. Lets
see how you face the Improved game.

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

> =A0 I am also trying very hard not to take
> the program lightly; that attitude leads
> to careless blunders, such as my piece
> hang in the game you misidentified as
> the Rybka QN-odds game. =A0(I actually
> saw that one coming, decided to trade
> pieces, then changed my mind when I
> couldn't see a clear way out of a
> possible perpetual-check. =A0I won easily,
> despite hanging my Knight.)

Now you have to play with even more thinking as yesterday the Game was
improved. Lets see if you can beat the Beginner Level the way you used
to. Now I think Beginner will win in 1/ 4 Games.

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

Date: 10 Apr 2008 21:02:33
From: help bot
Subject: Re: Help Bot Still at the Top !!!

On Apr 10, 3:20 am, Sanny <[email protected] > wrote:

> You are having fun with Beginner Level. But a few things about the
> games you play. What is the Big drawback you see with Beginner Levels
> game play.
>
> 1. Is it weak in Tactics?

Yes.

One weakness which should not exist in any
chess engine is *moving into check*. The
GetClub program does this routinely at the
end of the game, when it's losing.

> Then I suppost Higher Levels can provide
> better Tactics.

Even the weakest level should try to avoid
being checkmated; try to delay the loss as
long as possible, to give the opponent the
opportunity to err; this is how most games
are won-- by merely providing many such
opportunities, not unlike a mine field.

> 2. Is it weak in Strategy Formation?

Yes. However, this is to be expected.

> 3. Is it weak in defending the King?

Yes. And because checkmate (or, put
another way, trapping the King) is the
object of the game, this is critical.

> What do you think is the big weakness of Beginner Level that you feel
> it can be easily beaten?

In the endgame, the program plays at a
level which is perhaps 1000 rating points
weaker than in the middle-game.

It also is not handling tactics properly; in
general, a computer should come out on
top in almost every tactical skirmish with
lowly humans; yours doesn't.

> If Tactics is weak I can do nothing Only thing I will say is try
> higher Levels.

How about fixing the problem whereby the
program moves its King into check?

> If Strategy / Defence is weak let me know I may improve the game
> further.

Strategy is not a biggie; I often find
myself outplayed strategically, then go on
to win anyway due to my vast tactical
superiority. Once you gain the upper-hand
in tactics, then you can worry about such
trivial things. : >D

> After playing so many games with Beginner Level can you tell me the
> moves where Beginner played very bad move? So that I may see what
> weakness it has.

The biggest problems are the horrible
endgame, not defending its King when
attacked, and fairly simple tactics. It's
true that the tactics have been improved,
but there is no good reason a computer
cannot calculate checks and exchanges
to the very end; to a "quiet position", or
one that has no checks and no captures.

My recent improvement in results is
probably the result of the fact that my
"good" eye is functioning again; for a
while, I was playing with that eye held
shut, using powerful reading glasses to
aid the weaker eye in seeing the board.

I am also trying very hard not to take
the program lightly; that attitude leads
to careless blunders, such as my piece
hang in the game you misidentified as
the Rybka QN-odds game. (I actually
saw that one coming, decided to trade
pieces, then changed my mind when I
couldn't see a clear way out of a
possible perpetual-check. I won easily,
despite hanging my Knight.)

-- help bot

Date: 10 Apr 2008 01:47:25
From: Sanny
Subject: Game further Improved.

Today after studing 10-12 games of Beginner Level against Help Bot, I
found earlier GetClub was not defend its King properly. So a few
improvements were done in GetClub Chess to Save its King. As I saw
Help Bot easily taking the GetClubs King While Beginner was moving its
pieces at wromg places.

The game was much improved after this modification.

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

As an Example I played Against Rybka. Easy Level usually looses in 40
Moves against Rybka but this time It struggled till 50-60 Moves. The
game was unable to Complete as Rybka hanged after 48 Move. Still I
feel the game could have continued till 60 Moves.

Playing 60 Moves against Rybka is very difficult for any Player.
Usually Rybka Knocks you down in just 40 Moves.

Still Easy Level mantained good Position till 50-60 Moves That was
Great.

Here is the Game

Game Played between Rybka and easy at GetClub.com

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rybka : (White)
easy: (Black)
Game Played at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
View Recorded Game: http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?id=DM19111&game=Chess
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

White -- Black
(Rybka) -- (easy)

1. d2-d4{10} Ng8-f6{0}
2. c2-c4{14} e7-e6{0}
3. Ng1-f3{16} Nf6-e4{22}
4. Qd1-d3{26} d7-d5{38}
5. Nb1-c3{282} Bf8-b4{0}
6. g2-g3{14} Nb8-c6{24}
7. Bf1-g2{18} Bc8-d7{42}
8. c4-d5{22} e6-d5{28}
9. Ke1-g1{16} Bb4-c3{24}
10. b2-c3{18} Ke8-g8{34}
11. Nf3-d2{20} f7-f5{30}
12. Nd2-e4{20} f5-e4{28}
13. Qd3-b5{16} Rf8-f5{22}
14. Qb5-b7{26} Ra8-b8{36}
15. Qb7-a6{18} Qd8-f8{42}
16. Qa6-a4{24} Qf8-f7{20}
17. Qa4-c2{28} Bd7-e6{30}
18. Ra1-b1{20} Rb8-e8{38}
19. h2-h4{28} h7-h6{24}
20. Rb1-b5{20} Rf5-f6{22}
21. Bc1-e3{30} Re8-c8{32}
22. c3-c4{20} Nc6-e7{34}
23. Be3-f4{24} Rf6-f4{22}
24. g3-f4{28} Qf7-f4{26}
25. c4-d5{14} Be6-d5{40}
26. Rb5-a5{16} Qf4-h4{22}
27. Ra5-a7{32} Ne7-c6{52}
28. Qc2-c5{24} Qh4-d8{22}
29. Ra7-a6{34} Nc6-b8{24}
30. Ra6-g6{22} Qd8-d7{40}
31. Bg2-h3{34} Qd7-f7{30}
32. Rg6-d6{24} c7-d6{22}
33. Qc5-c8{14} Qf7-f8{28}
34. Rf1-c1{18} e4-e3{24}
35. Qc8-f8{20} Kg8-f8{24}
36. Rc1-c8{12} Kf8-e7{20}
37. Rc8-b8{30} g7-g6{28}
38. a2-a4{20} Bd5-c6{20}
39. a4-a5{22} g6-g5{30}
40. Rb8-h8{22} h6-h5{26}
41. Rh8-h5{28} Ke7-f6{20}
42. Rh5-h6{22} Kf6-e7{38}
43. Rh6-e6{28} Ke7-d8{20}
44. Re6-d6{26} Kd8-c7{34}
45. Rd6-g6{18} g5-g4{38}
46. Bh3-g4{16} Bc6-e4{34}
47. Rg6-g7{16} Kc7-c6{34}
48. Bg4-d7{26} Kc6-d6{34} {Rybka Hanged So I have to stop the Game
here}

{I think Rybka would have continued till 60 Moves to win the Game.}

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rybka : (White)
easy: (Black)
Game Played at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
View Recorded Game: http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?id=DM19111&game=Chess

So now Help Bot will find much more Opposition from even the Beginner
Level.

Help Bot, Tell me do you found the game getting a bit Tough now? Are
you now finding Beginner Level giving great challenge to you or not.

Incase you still find any problem in game let me know. For me this
improvement will make GetClub play much shatper than it used to
earlier.

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

Date: 10 Apr 2008 00:20:13
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: Help Bot Still at the Top !!!

> =A0 But against the Beginner level, I can have
> fun and gain rating points at the same time!
> Maybe *you* should play the higher levels,
> to get the ratings more in line with reality.

You are having fun with Beginner Level. But a few things about the
games you play. What is the Big drawback you see with Beginner Levels
game play.

1. Is it weak in Tactics? Then I suppost Higher Levels can provide
better Tactics.

2. Is it weak in Strategy Formation?

3. Is it weak in defending the King?

What do you think is the big weakness of Beginner Level that you feel
it can be easily beaten?

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

If Tactics is weak I can do nothing Only thing I will say is try
higher Levels.

If Strategy / Defence is weak let me know I may improve the game
further.

After playing so many games with Beginner Level can you tell me the
moves where Beginner played very bad move? So that I may see what
weakness it has.

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

Date: 09 Apr 2008 01:57:12
From: help bot
Subject: Re: Help Bot Still at the Top !!!

On Apr 9, 3:55 am, Sanny <[email protected] > wrote:

> I do not like the idea of Playing with Riik odds. Why not you play
> with Normal & Master Level without use of Computer. Lets see how you
> score against the Normal/ Master Level.

Those levels have very low ratings; I prefer to
play the best. ; >D

> I feel it would be much difficult to win them as they now play much
> good game.

It takes me all night to play a single game
against one of the top levels, and if I draw it
gets scored as a loss for me. The only way
I know to win against, say, the Advance
level, is to hide behind a wall of locked
center pawns, waiting for stupid mistakes.

But against the Beginner level, I can have
fun and gain rating points at the same time!
Maybe *you* should play the higher levels,
to get the ratings more in line with reality.

Seriously, my notebook's cooling fan
cranks at top speed all night long when I
play the higher levels, and every disconnect
means I have to reconnect and let the
program think another hour to get back to
where I was. I know the quality of play will
go down the toilet when we reach the
endgame, so I tend to trade down to
drawable positions-- a bad habit to get into.

I will play the top levels once in a while, it
you *truly* believe there is some fantastic
"improvement" which makes me lose like
a carrot. But 99.9% of those comments
amount to nothing but hot air-- say, do you
know a player named nearly-IMnes? ; >D

I did not play at QN-odds to ridicule the
GetClub program. As I said, the program
held its piece advantage for a while, and
where it lost the piece back there were
immense complications. I also played
out your game against Ivan from the lost
position after ...Bh4+, just to see if a top
chess engine could salvage something.

It turned out that Fritz 5.32 only drew the
"easy win"! Going back in time, we know
that the Fritz 5.32 engine was considered
to be grandmaster strength; but today's
best engines are so strong that even a
"weak GM" cannot stand the heat. Even
so, I recently discovered a *simple* chess
position where the top programs don't have
a clue-- unless they are connected to the
endgame table-bases, that is.

The reason for these odds games is to
display the "miracles" such programs can
often pull off, as well as to highlight the
immense differences in strength even at
such high levels where both programs
might crush 95%+ of human opponents.

-- help bot

Date: 09 Apr 2008 00:55:28
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: Help Bot Still at the Top !!!

> =A0 I believe it would be reasonable to play a
> Rook-odds game or match between these
> programs, but hanging the Rook is not so
> easy to accomplish in the first few moves.
> Ideally, the Rook would be removed before
> play begins, and it is customary to place
> White's QR-pawn on a3 instead of a2
> (where it would be undefended due to the
> gambit Rook).

I do not like the idea of Playing with Riik odds. Why not you play
with Normal & Master Level without use of Computer. Lets see how you
score against the Normal/ Master Level.

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

I feel it would be much difficult to win them as they now play much
good game.

GetClub Program is only for Human Opponents.

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

Date: 09 Apr 2008 00:08:37
From: help bot
Subject: Re: Help Bot Still at the Top !!!

On Apr 9, 2:37 am, Sanny <[email protected] > wrote:

> > Here is a link to the correct game:
>
> >http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?id=DM18202&game=Chess
>
> So you used Computers help in that Game.

No. What I did in that game was attempt to
simulate a real QN-odds game between the
GetClub program and a top commercial chess
engine. I did not interfere except in three ways:

1. I decided the setting for the program's
contempt factor.

2. I invented the moves by which the program
would "hang" its Queen's Knight.

3. I decided when to play the move displayed,
the cut-off time.

There is a BIG difference between being a
mere computer operator, and playing "with the
aid of" a computer. For instance, I hated it
when the program captured the pawn on e5,
because it meant that two more pieces were
going to get traded off "evenly". But... that
decision was not mine to make, as I was
just the operator.

> Thats why I though how you
> played so fast as with Beginner Level you think 1-2 min/ move So for
> Normal Level you will think 3-4 min/ move at Complex Position. But you
> took just 1-2 min against Normal Level.

In this odds game, I considered it unfair to
press the program to move quickly; instead,
I gave it plenty of time. Had the odds been,
say, a pawn, I would have set a limit to give
the GetClub program a fair chance; perhaps
one or two seconds. But such small odds
are pointless; why not instead just give time
odds?

> I was surprised to see your giving the Knight for no reasions.

In a normal QN-odds game, that piece is
simply removed before play begins; both
programs would then be "out of book", and
it is customary for the odds-giver to move
first (as White).

I believe it would be reasonable to play a
Rook-odds game or match between these
programs, but hanging the Rook is not so
easy to accomplish in the first few moves.
Ideally, the Rook would be removed before
play begins, and it is customary to place
White's QR-pawn on a3 instead of a2
(where it would be undefended due to the
gambit Rook).

-- help bot

Date: 08 Apr 2008 23:37:05
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: Help Bot Still at the Top !!!

> > > =A0 Actually, after failing in my attempt to create a
> > > second account (it said I already had an account
> > > with the nomorechess email address), I decided
> > > to risk my own incredible rating in a test of what
> > > would happen in a QN odds game against a top
> > > commercial program.
>
> =A0 Here is a link to the correct game:
>
> http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?id=3DDM18202&game=3DChess

So you used Computers help in that Game. Thats why I though how you
played so fast as with Beginner Level you think 1-2 min/ move So for
Normal Level you will think 3-4 min/ move at Complex Position. But you
took just 1-2 min against Normal Level.

I was surprised to see your giving the Knight for no reasions.

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

Date: 08 Apr 2008 21:44:55
From: help bot
Subject: Re: Help Bot Still at the Top !!!

Date: 08 Apr 2008 20:46:01
From: help bot
Subject: Re: Help Bot Still at the Top !!!

On Apr 8, 10:16 am, Sanny <[email protected] > wrote:

> > Actually, after failing in my attempt to create a
> > second account (it said I already had an account
> > with the nomorechess email address), I decided
> > to risk my own incredible rating in a test of what
> > would happen in a QN odds game against a top
> > commercial program.
>
> Here is that Gamehttp://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?id=DM19012&game=Chess
>
> I am unable to see how it got a Extra Knight. Actually it lost its
> bishop after the 12th move.

Wrong game. I will find the game myself
and post a link here. Note that there is
only one game where I played Nc3-b5-a7,
deliberately giving away the Knight.

I only have control of one side, so I can't
do a "proper" QN-odds game, in which the
piece is simply removed before play begins.
In this game, Black got in the moves:

1. ...d5

2. ...a6

However, the capture 3. ...Rxa7 is an
inconvenience to Black.

> > Much to my surprise, the GetClub program
> > held its piece advantage for a while, before
> > suddenly succumbing to a complex combination
> > which regained the piece for a pawn or two.
> > After that, it was no contest. This game can be
> > found by searching through my games looking
> > for the unique opening sequence:
>
> > 1. Nc3 d5
> > 2. Nb5 a6
> > 3. Na7!!

The game posted here by Sanny seems to
indicate that he is not familiar with algebraic
notation; instead of my Nc3 he found a recent
game in which I played Nf3, for instance.

-- help bot

Date: 08 Apr 2008 07:16:25
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: Help Bot Still at the Top !!!

> =A0 Actually, after failing in my attempt to create a
> second account (it said I already had an account
> with the nomorechess email address), I decided
> to risk my own incredible rating in a test of what
> would happen in a QN odds game against a top
> commercial program.

Here is that Game
http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?id=3DDM19012&game=3DChess

I am unable to see how it got a Extra Knight. Actually it lost its
bishop after the 12th move.

>
> =A0 Much to my surprise, the GetClub program
> held its piece advantage for a while, before
> suddenly succumbing to a complex combination
> which regained the piece for a pawn or two.
> After that, it was no contest. =A0This game can be
> found by searching through my games looking
> for the unique opening sequence:
>
> =A01. Nc3 =A0d5
> =A02. Nb5 =A0a6
> =A03. Na7!!

This is the Worst Opening ever played by GetClub Chess. Looking at the
Game I found it played its first move in (16) seconds. So it do not
follow the opening Book. Instead It was playing without Opening.

Many times I have seen It do not play through the Opening, Looks like
there is some bug.

Here is the complete game.

The game was Over at 12th Move only. As It was going a Bishop down for
2 pawns.

Game Played between help bot and beginner at GetClub.com

----------------------------------------------------------------------------=
----
help bot: (Black)
beginner: (White)
Game Played at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
View Recorded Game: http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?id=3DDM19012&game=3D=
Chess
----------------------------------------------------------------------------=
----

White -- Black
(beginner) -- (help bot)

1. Ng1-f3{16} c7-c5{4}
2. Nb1-c3{6} d7-d5{4}
3. e2-e4{8} d5-d4{6}
4. Nc3-d5{6} e7-e6{4}
5. Nd5-f4{8} Nb8-c6{8}
6. Bf1-b5{12} Qd8-c7{6}
7. e4-e5{8} Bc8-d7{22}
8. Qd1-e2{14} a7-a6{48}
9. Bb5-d3{0} Bf8-e7{54}
10. Qe2-e4{6} Nc6-b4{16}
11. Nf4-h5{8} g7-g6{20}
12. Nh5-f4{8} c5-c4{28} {Game Finished here only as White is Bishop up
for Pawns.}
13. Nf3-d4{6} c4-d3{8}
14. c2-d3{8} Bd7-c6{22}
15. Qe4-e3{10} Ke8-c8{50}
16. Ke1-g1{10} Rd8-d4{20}
17. Qe3-d4{6} Nb4-c2{4}
18. Qd4-c3{8} Nc2-a1{20}
19. b2-b4{0} Qc7-b6{66}
20. d3-d4{8} Be7-b4{50}
21. Qc3-a1{6} Ng8-e7{8}
22. Rf1-d1{8} Rh8-d8{18}
23. Bc1-b2{0} Bc6-d5{46}
24. a2-a3{6} Bb4-a5{10}
25. d2-d3{20} Kc8-d7{20}
26. Qa1-b1{6} Rd8-c8{10}
27. Rd1-c1{10} Rc8-c6{44}
28. h2-h3{12} Ba5-d2{12}
29. Nf4-d5{6} Ne7-d5{40}
30. Rc1-c6{0} Qb6-c6{14}
31. Qb1-d1{12} Bd2-a5{76}
32. g2-g4{12} Nd5-f4{18}
33. d4-d5{6} Qc6-d5{20}
34. Qd1-a4{6} b7-b5{40}
35. Qa4-f4{12} Kd7-e8{24}
36. Qf4-e4{0} Qd5-e4{8}
37. d3-e4{6} Ke8-d7{10}
38. h3-h4{8} Kd7-c6{4}
39. f2-f3{6} Kc6-c5{4}
40. f3-f4{12} Ba5-d2{22}
41. f4-f5{6} Bd2-e3{8}
42. Kg1-g2{6} Be3-d4{2}
43. f5-e6{6} f7-e6{8}
44. Bb2-c1{18} Bd4-e5{12}
45. Kg2-f3{8} Kc5-c4{6}
46. a3-a4{6} b5-b4{10}
47. h4-h5{8} b4-b3{14}
48. h5-g6{30} h7-g6{4}
49. Kf3-e3{8} b3-b2{12}
50. Bc1-b2{6} Be5-b2{4}
51. Ke3-f4{6} Bb2-f6{8}
52. e4-e5{8} g6-g5{8}
53. Kf4-e4{18} Bf6-d8{10}
54. Ke4-e3{6} Kc4-d5{12}
55. Ke3-f2{12} Kd5-e5{6}
56. Kf2-f3{8} Bd8-b6{6}
57. Kf3-e2{16} Ke5-f4{6}
58. Ke2-d3{6} Kf4-g4{6}
59. Kd3-e4{6} Bb6-c7{4}
60. Ke4-e3{8} Kg4-f5{6}
61. Ke3-d4{12} Bc7-d6{10}
62. a4-a5{10} g5-g4{4}
63. Kd4-d3{6} g4-g3{6}
64. Kd3-e3{6} Kf5-g4{20}
65. Ke3-d3{6} Kg4-f3{8}
66. Kd3-c2{26} g3-g2{8}
67. Kc2-c1{6} Qg2-g1{Q}{6}
68. Kc1-b2{8} Qg1-e3{10}
69. Kb2-c3{6}
----------------------------------------------------------------------------=
----
help bot: (Black)
beginner: (White)
Game Played at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
View Recorded Game: http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?id=3DDM19012&game=3D=
Chess

In this game both White and Black made lots of mistake. As both lost
their pieces because of weak Tactics.

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

Date: 08 Apr 2008 03:07:36
From: help bot
Subject: Re: Help Bot Still at the Top !!!

Sanny wrote:

> Help bot is now at Top at GetClub Chess.
>
> He Won: 346 and Lost: 25 and has got Highest Rating of 1528.

Actually, several of my "losses" were draws, but
hey, your expert programming team can't be
expected to know *everything* about the game of
chess. As I recall, I gave up on trying to get the
bogus "losses" corrected, after watching what TK
had to go through to protect his "perfect" record.

> Any there one who can beat "Help Bot"s Record???
>
> He played all games without taking help from any Computer and beat
> records of all players and reached the Top Ranking.

Actually, after failing in my attempt to create a
second account (it said I already had an account
with the nomorechess email address), I decided
to risk my own incredible rating in a test of what
would happen in a QN odds game against a top
commercial program.

Much to my surprise, the GetClub program
held its piece advantage for a while, before
suddenly succumbing to a complex combination
which regained the piece for a pawn or two.
After that, it was no contest. This game can be
found by searching through my games looking
for the unique opening sequence:

1. Nc3 d5

2. Nb5 a6

3. Na7!!

At least I hope it is unique... .

-- help bot