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Main
I have my doubts, but check out this story from the BBC.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7265257.stm
Jerry Spinrad
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Date: 29 Feb 2008 09:21:22
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Da Vinci Chess Drawings?
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Even if you make the leap which seems impossible to me that the
illustrator was a skilled painter, Paioli seems to have had a huge
number of painters in his circle of acquaintances. I think this is an
example of very wishful thinking on the part of the people examining
the manuscript, but I know very little about art.
Jerry Spinrad
On Feb 28, 12:00=A0pm, Anders Thulin <[email protected] >
wrote:
> [email protected] wrote:
> > I have my doubts, but check out this story from the BBC.
>
> >http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7265257.stm
>
> There's a facsimile edition published ... but it counts in at 2800 EUR,
> which is downright ridiculous.
>
> Here's what seems to be a page from t:
>
> http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/250880/Leonardo_Da_Vinci_May_Be...
>
> ... personally I see no reason to suspect that only Leonardo could
> have drawn that diagram: I've seen handdrawn diagrams of much higher
> quality by plain problemists.
>
> --
> Anders Thulin =A0 =A0 anders*thulin.name =A0 =A0http://www.anders.thulin.n=
ame/
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Date: 28 Feb 2008 20:08:40
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Da Vinci Chess Drawings?
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HARD TO BELIEVE THE HYPE
"...one of the most striking things about it, aside from the practical
demonstrations of the game, is the novelty and beauty of its
illustrations."
I agree with Anders Thulin that these diagrams are so crude they could
have been drawn by anyone.
"Leonardo is thought to have understood chess and maybe he even played
it.
He made a reference to a technical term from the game in one of his
many manuscripts."
Does anyone know what this technical term is?
<There's a facsimile edition published ... but it counts in at 2800
EUR,
which is downright ridiculous. >
Who published this edition, on what date, and how can we see a copy?
Would it be in the White collection at the Cleveland Public Library?
Anders Thulin wrote:
> [email protected] wrote:
> > I have my doubts, but check out this story from the BBC.
> >
> > http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7265257.stm
>
> There's a facsimile edition published ... but it counts in at 2800 EUR,
> which is downright ridiculous.
>
> Here's what seems to be a page from t:
>
> http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/250880/Leonardo_Da_Vinci_May_Be_Behind_Chess_Drawings_in_Pacioli_s_Manuscript
>
> ... personally I see no reason to suspect that only Leonardo could
> have drawn that diagram: I've seen handdrawn diagrams of much higher
> quality by plain problemists.
>
> --
> Anders Thulin anders*thulin.name http://www.anders.thulin.name/
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Date: 29 Feb 2008 15:56:08
From: Anders Thulin
Subject: Re: Da Vinci Chess Drawings?
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[email protected] wrote:
> Who published this edition, on what date, and how can we see a copy?
> Would it be in the White collection at the Cleveland Public Library?
The Italian chess bookshop Le due Torri has a reference to it:
http://www.scacchi.biz/catalogo/dettaglio.asp?lingua=E&CAT=&P=1&PROD=5783&T=N&C=
It's a museum edition, with some unusual trimmings.
--
Anders Thulin anders*thulin.name http://www.anders.thulin.name/
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Date: 29 Feb 2008 13:13:00
From: David Richerby
Subject: Re: Da Vinci Chess Drawings?
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[email protected] <[email protected] > wrote:
> "...one of the most striking things about it, aside from the
> practical demonstrations of the game, is the novelty and beauty of
> its illustrations."
>
> I agree with Anders Thulin that these diagrams are so crude they
> could have been drawn by anyone.
They're certainly not the ``novelty and beauty,'' with ``elegant and
distinctive symbols, coloured in black and red ink; so finely drawn''
promised by the BBC.
> "Leonardo is thought to have understood chess and maybe he even
> played it. He made a reference to a technical term from the game in
> one of his many manuscripts."
>
> Does anyone know what this technical term is?
No idea. But is it really all that surprising? And does it really
mean that Leonardo was more than familiar with chess? How often have
we heard people who know nothing of the game refer to a situation as a
stalemate, a checkmate or an endgame or say that something is ``like a
game of chess''?
``The researchers say they are confident these are the drawings of
Leonardo and they have asked experts in the United States to make a
second, independent assessment.''
-- http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7265257.stm
Well, there's a leading question if ever there was one.
Dave.
--
David Richerby Aquatic Radioactive Gnome (TM): it's
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ like a smiling garden ornament but
it'll make you glow in the dark and
it lives in the sea!
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Date: 29 Feb 2008 09:37:49
From: Chess One
Subject: Re: Da Vinci Chess Drawings?
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"David Richerby" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:49i*[email protected]...
> [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:
>> "...one of the most striking things about it, aside from the
>> practical demonstrations of the game, is the novelty and beauty of
>> its illustrations."
>>
>> I agree with Anders Thulin that these diagrams are so crude they
>> could have been drawn by anyone.
>
> They're certainly not the ``novelty and beauty,'' with ``elegant and
> distinctive symbols, coloured in black and red ink; so finely drawn''
> promised by the BBC.
>
>> "Leonardo is thought to have understood chess and maybe he even
>> played it. He made a reference to a technical term from the game in
>> one of his many manuscripts."
>>
>> Does anyone know what this technical term is?
>
> No idea. But is it really all that surprising? And does it really
> mean that Leonardo was more than familiar with chess? How often have
> we heard people who know nothing of the game refer to a situation as a
> stalemate, a checkmate or an endgame or say that something is ``like a
> game of chess''?
He was a chess player, and it is known that only some half [?] of his papers
are found - and there is always speculation on what happened to the rest of
them.
As a scam, this is not quite on the level of the Hitler Diaries, but would
make for a good try. I have some 4 or 5 books about literary scams, which
typically are forensically investigated - if this is just a page or two of
codex then experts may have trouble - essentially, the paper and the inking
needs to be of the period. The 'hand' is forgeable, but what is recently
found are more diffidently line-drawings.
> ``The researchers say they are confident these are the drawings of
> Leonardo and they have asked experts in the United States to make a
> second, independent assessment.''
> -- http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7265257.stm
>
> Well, there's a leading question if ever there was one.
It would seem more important to state why 'researchers' are confident. I
think Yale was also taken in by a map-scam some years ago, even after hordes
of experts had poured over it - and after Yale built a building to house it.
This seems of pertinence, "Da Vinci was a close friend of Italian
mathematician and Franciscan friar Luca Pacioli, who wrote the manuscript.
Pacioli wrote the book - a collection of puzzles called "De ludo scacchorum"
found in a private library last year - around the year 1500, experts say."
Well...
This particular document is of some interest, and its title is actually:
"Ludus scacorum or Elegia de Ludo Scachorum." And this survives in about 10
manuscripts. One of them, unknown to Murray, dates from 1050-1100 and so
attests to the poem's early date. The poem in question being the "Einsiedeln
Verses" c. 1000. The Ludus being 'a second poem of this kind'. [Eales]
It is possible that the 'Ludus' above may instead be something from Vetula,
attriributed to Ovid in the middle ages but probably written by contemporary
Richard de Fournival - since that was a relatively more popular title - and
presumptively more available in Italy than other MSS, since;-
Each of these MSS were of clerical origin, from monasteries at
Einsiedeln, at Winchester, and the Ludus scacorum from Bridlington Piory in
Yorkshire.
Phil Innes
>
> Dave.
>
> --
> David Richerby Aquatic Radioactive Gnome (TM):
> it's
> www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ like a smiling garden ornament
> but
> it'll make you glow in the dark
> and
> it lives in the sea!
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Date: 28 Feb 2008 18:00:13
From: Anders Thulin
Subject: Re: Da Vinci Chess Drawings?
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[email protected] wrote:
> I have my doubts, but check out this story from the BBC.
>
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7265257.stm
There's a facsimile edition published ... but it counts in at 2800 EUR,
which is downright ridiculous.
Here's what seems to be a page from t:
http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/250880/Leonardo_Da_Vinci_May_Be_Behind_Chess_Drawings_in_Pacioli_s_Manuscript
... personally I see no reason to suspect that only Leonardo could
have drawn that diagram: I've seen handdrawn diagrams of much higher
quality by plain problemists.
--
Anders Thulin anders*thulin.name http://www.anders.thulin.name/
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