Main
Date: 02 Oct 2007 14:57:30
From: Terry Terry
Subject: Chess pages that show chess moves and not notation
One reason I really never studied chess was because the notation was
too messy.

I would like to find some chess sites that use pictures instead of
notation to show some basic chess.

Can anyone recommend one?

Also, I saw a book in the past that showed common mating positions.
Most of them were to a castled king position. Anyone know of such a
demonstration?

Thanks for your time





 
Date: 05 Oct 2007 17:30:56
From: Guy Macon
Subject: Re: Chess pages that show chess moves and not notation


tOmmetje wrote:

>
>Guy Macon <http://www.guymacon.com/> wrote:

>> ...and some books used small pictures of the pieces.
>
>Well, it's true that most books use diagrams very scarcely. I would be
>happier too if i saw a diagram every 5 or so moves. that way i don't
>need a board and can just make the moves in my head. but after 5 or so
>moves that tend to become too difficult for me, so a board would be
>nice in the books.

I wasn't talking about diagrams. Some books used a small picture of
a knight instead of the "N" in the notation, etc. It was a way to make
a book international.






  
Date: 06 Oct 2007 05:21:39
From: Anders Thulin
Subject: Re: Chess pages that show chess moves and not notation
Guy Macon wrote:

> I wasn't talking about diagrams. Some books used a small picture of
> a knight instead of the "N" in the notation, etc. It was a way to make
> a book international.

Only if there is no textual commentary: the Informator books are good
examples.

But using figurine notation in a book where the value is in extensive
comments in German, say, doesn't help making that book more accessible
to a non-German-reading public.

--
Anders Thulin anders*thulin.name http://www.anders.thulin.name/


 
Date: 05 Oct 2007 14:18:13
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Chess pages that show chess moves and not notation
> You can use software to create your own books with a diagram every 5th move.
> I used SCID to do this.
> In a .PGN file I changed every move number 6. 11. 16. etcetera
> to $201 6. $201 11. $201 16. etcetera
> by a search and replace macro.
> $201 means "print a diagram" to SCID.

I took this one step further with a Perl script (intended to work with
material from chesspublishing.com, but workable with most PGN) that
inserts a diagram every time a comment, annotation, or variant is
found. It can make for a lot of diagrams but makes the notes easy to
follow.




 
Date: 04 Oct 2007 19:45:58
From: Terry Terry
Subject: Re: Chess pages that show chess moves and not notation
On Oct 4, 5:53 pm, "Wijnand Engelkes" <[email protected] > wrote:
> The series "Weltgeschichte des Schachs" had collections of 300-500 games of
> famous players, with a diagram every 5 moves and a little leaflet at the
> back of the book with comments.
> You can use software to create your own books with a diagram every 5th move.
> I used SCID to do this.
> In a .PGN file I changed every move number 6. 11. 16. etcetera
> to $201 6. $201 11. $201 16. etcetera
> by a search and replace macro.
> $201 means "print a diagram" to SCID.
>
> Wijnand.
>
> "tOmmetje" <[email protected]> schreef in berichtnews:[email protected]...
>
>
>
> > On 4 okt, 15:21, Guy Macon <http://www.guymacon.com/> wrote:
> >> Anders Thulin wrote:
>
> >> >David Richerby wrote:
>
> >> >> And throughout the English-speaking world. Did other languages have
> >> >> equivalent descriptive notations?
>
> >> > There are/were both French and Spanish descriptive notation
> >> >-- I expect there's Portuguese and probably Italian as well.
>
> >> ...and some books used small pictures of the pieces.
>
> > Well, it's true that most books use diagrams very scarcely. I would be
> > happier too if i saw a diagram every 5 or so moves. that way i don't
> > need a board and can just make the moves in my head. but after 5 or so
> > moves that tend to become too difficult for me, so a board would be
> > nice in the books.

I think every book should include a pgn disk or at least a site to
download them. The pgn files wouldn't be of much use without the
text. It would seem to add value to the book.

Who has not sit at the computer and made pgn games from text?




  
Date: 05 Oct 2007 08:34:09
From: David Richerby
Subject: Re: Chess pages that show chess moves and not notation
Terry Terry <[email protected] > wrote:
> I think every book should include a pgn disk or at least a site to
> download them. The pgn files wouldn't be of much use without the
> text. It would seem to add value to the book.

In the UK, there is no VAT (sales tax) on books but VAT applies as
soon as you include a CD. (D'oh!)

Online would be fine, though. Perhaps the publishers are worried that
a PGN with the variations would mean many people wouldn't bother
buying the book and a PGN without variations isn't all that much use
and is easily found, anyway, on e.g., chessgames.com .


Dave.

--
David Richerby Salted Voodoo Goldfish (TM): it's like
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ a fish that has mystical powers but
it's covered in salt!


 
Date: 04 Oct 2007 19:37:19
From: Terry Terry
Subject: Re: Chess pages that show chess moves and not notation
On Oct 4, 6:10 am, David Richerby <[email protected] >
wrote:
> Terry Terry <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > For me to study a opening line, I have to first set up the board. I
> > then have to make a move, look at the book, make a move, look at the
> > book.
>
> Sure. I've not seen anyone have a problem with that. (I'm not trying
> to criticize you; just to point out why I'm finding it a bit tricky to
> figure out your needs.)
>
> > Computers should show each move instead of the notation. Am I
> > missing something or does one not need to actually need to make the
> > moves on the chessboard to understand the notation? I sure do.
>
> With practice, it becomes more natural. I would find it very hard to
> follow a whole game just from the notation but I can follow five or
> six moves without too much difficulty. I still prefer to make the
> moves on the board but I don't have to think about it: if I see
> something like `Nd5', I immediately know which move to make; I don't
> need to work out which square is d5 and which knight is supposed to be
> moving there.
>
> > BTW I never said I was a beginner.
>
> I know. I was just saying that you already understand a reasonable
> amount about what is a pretty complex game. I find it a bit
> surprising that you have such a problem with the notation, given the
> difficulty of what you've already grasped.
>
> > Having a game explained move by move would seem to be more
> > information and less work.
>
> > I am sure there are sites out there. I was asking where they are.
>
> I don't know of any tutorial sites. If you want to look through some
> master games, which is an excellent way to learn, go to
>
> http://www.chessgames.com/
>
> You can choose a game from a database of thousands (millions?) and use
> a java applet to go through the moves without needing to read any
> notation. I'd recommend starting with Morphy's games and then
> whichever of Capablanca and Alekhine is more to your taste. However,
> without annotations, you're not really getting the full picture.
> Maybe the best thing to do would be to get a book of games (say,
> Chernev's _The Most Instructive Games of Chess Ever Played_ or a
> collection of Capablanca's or Alekhine's games) and use chessgames.com
> to go through the moves, rather than a board?
>
> > I am not really interested in learning more about notation.
>
> OK. I think that'll hold you back a bit but the important thing is
> that you enjoy the game.
>

Thanks for your suggestions, but I really don't learn much from
studying the masters either.

I might give it a try again, but I don't use Java as I have confirmed
that is has caused me to be infected. I use F Secure and still get
infected with a nasty pop up virus.

I am at a point where the basics are not enough, but the masters are
too much.

The analysis of master games is just too deep for me.

Trying to work out openings is hard for me too. My memory is just not
very good.

I guess I will just have to live with getting my ass owned at
Yahoo. :)

I would like to buy a book that furnished a disk with a stored book of
moves and throw the notation out the window, but I guess there is just
not a ket for it.

I would think chess players would be hungry for such a feature.

Thanks for your time

BTW the opening I always play is Queen's Gambit with white, and I try
the Sicilian with black, but I usually don't have much luck with
black.

I do know I am stronger in open games than closed ones.



  
Date: 05 Oct 2007 23:48:30
From: James Raynard
Subject: Re: Chess pages that show chess moves and not notation
In article <[email protected] >,
Terry Terry <[email protected] > wrote:
>
>The analysis of master games is just too deep for me.

I think a penny has dropped. When you say "notation", you don't mean
the way the moves are written, but the comments on them - which are
usually referred to as "annotations".

This is certainly a problem with games between top GMs as the positions
are usually very complicated to start with. Many commentators get really
carried away with their analysis and sometimes seem to forget that they
are writing for human readers who aren't super GMs and have other things
to do in their lives apart from studying chess!

This seems to have become much worse since the advent of strong
analytical computer programs.

One solution is to read books written before the computer era - players
such as Botvinnik, Reshevsky and Tal were very good at explaining what
was happening in their games without getting bogged down in endless reams
of analysis (Fischer was another, but his book is not easy to obtain now).
There are also a few modern authors who can do this - Mihail in is a
good example. On the occasions when they do give long notes, you can
usually skim over them and then come back later when you have a better
understanding of the rest of the game.

Another possibility is to drop down a level - games played at the
2400-2500 level are usually easier to understand (and, dare I say it,
often more interesting to us amateurs); the players commenting on the
games have more realistic ideas of their audience's ability and
attention span. Look for coverage of national championships, open
tournaments and women's events.

Finally, one piece of advice I saw when I was a beginner was to use
two chess sets for playing through games, one for the game moves and
one for the comments (or perhaps your own analysis). Probably obsolete
now, though, as you can get the computer to analyse for you and then
take you back to the game position.

James
--
Your password must be at least 18770 characters and cannot repeat any of
your previous 30689 passwords.
--- http://support.microsoft.com/kb/276304


 
Date: 05 Oct 2007 00:58:27
From: tOmmetje
Subject: Re: Chess pages that show chess moves and not notation
On 4 okt, 23:53, "Wijnand Engelkes" <[email protected] > wrote:
> The series "Weltgeschichte des Schachs" had collections of 300-500 games of
> famous players, with a diagram every 5 moves and a little leaflet at the
> back of the book with comments.
> You can use software to create your own books with a diagram every 5th move.
> I used SCID to do this.
> In a .PGN file I changed every move number 6. 11. 16. etcetera
> to $201 6. $201 11. $201 16. etcetera
> by a search and replace macro.
> $201 means "print a diagram" to SCID.
>
> Wijnand.
>
> "tOmmetje" <[email protected]> schreef in berichtnews:[email protected]...
>
> > On 4 okt, 15:21, Guy Macon <http://www.guymacon.com/> wrote:
> >> Anders Thulin wrote:
>
> >> >David Richerby wrote:
>
> >> >> And throughout the English-speaking world. Did other languages have
> >> >> equivalent descriptive notations?
>
> >> > There are/were both French and Spanish descriptive notation
> >> >-- I expect there's Portuguese and probably Italian as well.
>
> >> ...and some books used small pictures of the pieces.
>
> > Well, it's true that most books use diagrams very scarcely. I would be
> > happier too if i saw a diagram every 5 or so moves. that way i don't
> > need a board and can just make the moves in my head. but after 5 or so
> > moves that tend to become too difficult for me, so a board would be
> > nice in the books.

That's pretty st of you Wijnand. I wonder if I can do the same with
ChessDB (a fork or whatever you may call it) of Scid. I bet you can
though. I'll have to check this out! Thanks!



 
Date: 04 Oct 2007 21:01:22
From: tOmmetje
Subject: Re: Chess pages that show chess moves and not notation
On 4 okt, 15:21, Guy Macon <http://www.guymacon.com/ > wrote:
> Anders Thulin wrote:
>
> >David Richerby wrote:
>
> >> And throughout the English-speaking world. Did other languages have
> >> equivalent descriptive notations?
>
> > There are/were both French and Spanish descriptive notation
> >-- I expect there's Portuguese and probably Italian as well.
>
> ...and some books used small pictures of the pieces.

Well, it's true that most books use diagrams very scarcely. I would be
happier too if i saw a diagram every 5 or so moves. that way i don't
need a board and can just make the moves in my head. but after 5 or so
moves that tend to become too difficult for me, so a board would be
nice in the books.



  
Date: 04 Oct 2007 23:53:36
From: Wijnand Engelkes
Subject: Re: Chess pages that show chess moves and not notation
The series "Weltgeschichte des Schachs" had collections of 300-500 games of
famous players, with a diagram every 5 moves and a little leaflet at the
back of the book with comments.
You can use software to create your own books with a diagram every 5th move.
I used SCID to do this.
In a .PGN file I changed every move number 6. 11. 16. etcetera
to $201 6. $201 11. $201 16. etcetera
by a search and replace macro.
$201 means "print a diagram" to SCID.

Wijnand.

"tOmmetje" <[email protected] > schreef in bericht
news:[email protected]...
> On 4 okt, 15:21, Guy Macon <http://www.guymacon.com/> wrote:
>> Anders Thulin wrote:
>>
>> >David Richerby wrote:
>>
>> >> And throughout the English-speaking world. Did other languages have
>> >> equivalent descriptive notations?
>>
>> > There are/were both French and Spanish descriptive notation
>> >-- I expect there's Portuguese and probably Italian as well.
>>
>> ...and some books used small pictures of the pieces.
>
> Well, it's true that most books use diagrams very scarcely. I would be
> happier too if i saw a diagram every 5 or so moves. that way i don't
> need a board and can just make the moves in my head. but after 5 or so
> moves that tend to become too difficult for me, so a board would be
> nice in the books.
>




 
Date: 03 Oct 2007 20:59:36
From: Terry Terry
Subject: Re: Chess pages that show chess moves and not notation
On Oct 3, 5:49 pm, David Richerby <[email protected] >
wrote:

> > Yes, I am sure. I play around 1400-1500.
>
> Compared to a total beginner, that's pretty strong. It surprises me
> that you find notation difficult (and I don't mean to mock or belittle
> you). Was it descriptive (1.P-K4 P-QB4 2.P-Q4 PxP) or algebraic (1.e4
> c5 2.d4 cxd4) that was causing the problem?
>
> > I always wanted to see move by move setups. With chess notation, it
> > took too long for me to set up.
>
> I'm not sure what you mean, here. There are two usual ways in which
> notation is used in books. One is to give complete game scores.
> Here, you set up the pieces into the familiar initial position and
> then just execute the moves one at a time. The other is to give moves
> from some specific position. Here, the start position is invariably
> given as a diagram and then you just execute the moves one at a time.
>
> In both cases, the only setting up is either the initial position or
> from a diagram. Neither of these requires notation. OK, occasionally,
> positions are given as FEN but that's fairly uncommon in books. If
> you see it in a newsgroup, just cut and paste to your favourite chess
> program.
>
For me to study a opening line, I have to first set up the board. I
then have to make a move, look at the book, make a move, look at the
book.

Computers should show each move instead of the notation. Am I missing
something or does one not need to actually need to make the moves on
the chessboard to understand the notation? I sure do.

BTW I never said I was a beginner. I play as often as I can. I just
don't seem to be able to find a way to learn any more depth of the
game.

I wouldn't call notation difficult, it is just not interesting. I
feel it is too much work for not much information. Also making
mistakes in the notation happens frequently with me so that gets
frustrating. I could follow either notation but I found algebraic
caused me to make less mistakes.

Having a game explained move by move would seem to be more information
and less work.

I am sure there are sites out there. I was asking where they are.

I am not really interested in learning more about notation.




  
Date: 04 Oct 2007 11:10:32
From: David Richerby
Subject: Re: Chess pages that show chess moves and not notation
Terry Terry <[email protected] > wrote:
> For me to study a opening line, I have to first set up the board. I
> then have to make a move, look at the book, make a move, look at the
> book.

Sure. I've not seen anyone have a problem with that. (I'm not trying
to criticize you; just to point out why I'm finding it a bit tricky to
figure out your needs.)


> Computers should show each move instead of the notation. Am I
> missing something or does one not need to actually need to make the
> moves on the chessboard to understand the notation? I sure do.

With practice, it becomes more natural. I would find it very hard to
follow a whole game just from the notation but I can follow five or
six moves without too much difficulty. I still prefer to make the
moves on the board but I don't have to think about it: if I see
something like `Nd5', I immediately know which move to make; I don't
need to work out which square is d5 and which knight is supposed to be
moving there.


> BTW I never said I was a beginner.

I know. I was just saying that you already understand a reasonable
amount about what is a pretty complex game. I find it a bit
surprising that you have such a problem with the notation, given the
difficulty of what you've already grasped.


> Having a game explained move by move would seem to be more
> information and less work.
>
> I am sure there are sites out there. I was asking where they are.

I don't know of any tutorial sites. If you want to look through some
master games, which is an excellent way to learn, go to

http://www.chessgames.com/

You can choose a game from a database of thousands (millions?) and use
a java applet to go through the moves without needing to read any
notation. I'd recommend starting with Morphy's games and then
whichever of Capablanca and Alekhine is more to your taste. However,
without annotations, you're not really getting the full picture.
Maybe the best thing to do would be to get a book of games (say,
Chernev's _The Most Instructive Games of Chess Ever Played_ or a
collection of Capablanca's or Alekhine's games) and use chessgames.com
to go through the moves, rather than a board?


> I am not really interested in learning more about notation.

OK. I think that'll hold you back a bit but the important thing is
that you enjoy the game.


Dave.

--
David Richerby Technicolor Perforated Clock (TM):
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ it's like a clock but it's full of
holes and in realistic colour!


 
Date: 03 Oct 2007 16:14:20
From: tOmmetje
Subject: Re: Chess pages that show chess moves and not notation
On 3 okt, 17:40, Terry Terry <[email protected] > wrote:
> On Oct 3, 5:47 am, David Richerby <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> > Terry Terry <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > One reason I really never studied chess was because the notation was
> > > too messy.
>
> > Are you sure that was the reason? The notation is very
> > straightforward compared to the complexity of the game.
>
> Yes, I am sure. I play around 1400-1500. I always wanted to see move
> by move setups. With chess notation, it took too long for me to set
> up.
>
> I would rather spend time looking at the board than setting up pieces.
>
> Using the computer as a tool, It should be just as easy to record
> games in picture format than chess notation.

What do you mean with "picture format"? Figurine notation? Or instead
of listing the moves, draw a new diagram for each move made? The
latter is just completely insane!! If you need such help to learn
chess, go find a simpler game to play instead, like tic-tac-toe or
something.



 
Date: 03 Oct 2007 08:40:45
From: Terry Terry
Subject: Re: Chess pages that show chess moves and not notation
On Oct 3, 5:47 am, David Richerby <[email protected] >
wrote:
> Terry Terry <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > One reason I really never studied chess was because the notation was
> > too messy.
>
> Are you sure that was the reason? The notation is very
> straightforward compared to the complexity of the game.
>

Yes, I am sure. I play around 1400-1500. I always wanted to see move
by move setups. With chess notation, it took too long for me to set
up.

I would rather spend time looking at the board than setting up pieces.

Using the computer as a tool, It should be just as easy to record
games in picture format than chess notation.






  
Date: 03 Oct 2007 22:49:33
From: David Richerby
Subject: Re: Chess pages that show chess moves and not notation
Terry Terry <[email protected] > wrote:
> David Richerby <[email protected]>wrote:
>> Terry Terry <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> One reason I really never studied chess was because the notation was
>>> too messy.
>>
>> Are you sure that was the reason? The notation is very
>> straightforward compared to the complexity of the game.
>
> Yes, I am sure. I play around 1400-1500.

Compared to a total beginner, that's pretty strong. It surprises me
that you find notation difficult (and I don't mean to mock or belittle
you). Was it descriptive (1.P-K4 P-QB4 2.P-Q4 PxP) or algebraic (1.e4
c5 2.d4 cxd4) that was causing the problem?


> I always wanted to see move by move setups. With chess notation, it
> took too long for me to set up.

I'm not sure what you mean, here. There are two usual ways in which
notation is used in books. One is to give complete game scores.
Here, you set up the pieces into the familiar initial position and
then just execute the moves one at a time. The other is to give moves
from some specific position. Here, the start position is invariably
given as a diagram and then you just execute the moves one at a time.

In both cases, the only setting up is either the initial position or
from a diagram. Neither of these requires notation. OK, ocasionally,
positions are given as FEN but that's fairly uncommon in books. If
you see it in a newsgroup, just cut and paste to your favourite chess
program.


Dave.

--
David Richerby Addictive Tool (TM): it's like a
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ screwdriver but you can never put
it down!


 
Date: 03 Oct 2007 10:47:40
From: David Richerby
Subject: Re: Chess pages that show chess moves and not notation
Terry Terry <[email protected] > wrote:
> One reason I really never studied chess was because the notation was
> too messy.

Are you sure that was the reason? The notation is very
straightforward compared to the complexity of the game.


Dave.



--
David Richerby Crystal Carnivorous Radio (TM): it's
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ like a radio but it's full of teeth
and completely transparent!


 
Date: 02 Oct 2007 15:04:43
From: Ken Blake
Subject: Re: Chess pages that show chess moves and not notation
On Tue, 02 Oct 2007 14:57:30 -0700, Terry Terry <[email protected] >
wrote:

> One reason I really never studied chess was because the notation was
> too messy.
>
> I would like to find some chess sites that use pictures instead of
> notation to show some basic chess.
>
> Can anyone recommend one?



Although you may be able to find what you are looking for, if you
seriously want to study chess, you *must* learn to become comfortable
reading standard notation. Without it, you are spurning many important
resources, and will never become any good at the game. You will not be
able to read books and magazines, and you will not be able to converse
about moves with other players.

In fact, you really should learn and be comfortable with, not only the
standard algebraic notation that everyone uses, but also the older
descriptive notation that was commonly used in the USA. There are
older books and magazines that use it that you may want to read.

--
Ken Blake
Please Reply to the Newsgroup


  
Date: 03 Oct 2007 10:48:42
From: David Richerby
Subject: Re: Chess pages that show chess moves and not notation
Ken Blake <[email protected] > wrote:
> [...] the older descriptive notation that was commonly used in the
> USA.

And throughout the English-speaking world. Did other languages have
equivalent descriptive notations?


Dave.

--
David Richerby Electronic Book (TM): it's like
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ a romantic novel but it uses
electricity!


   
Date: 03 Oct 2007 13:31:20
From: Anders Thulin
Subject: Re: Chess pages that show chess moves and not notation
David Richerby wrote:

> And throughout the English-speaking world. Did other languages have
> equivalent descriptive notations?

There are/were both French and Spanish descriptive notation
-- I expect there's Portuguese and probably Italian as well.

--
Anders Thulin anders*thulin.name http://www.anders.thulin.name/


    
Date: 04 Oct 2007 13:21:10
From: Guy Macon
Subject: Re: Chess pages that show chess moves and not notation



Anders Thulin wrote:
>
>David Richerby wrote:
>
>> And throughout the English-speaking world. Did other languages have
>> equivalent descriptive notations?
>
> There are/were both French and Spanish descriptive notation
>-- I expect there's Portuguese and probably Italian as well.

...and some books used small pictures of the pieces.