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Main
Date: 06 Jan 2008 00:40:52
From: Sanny
Subject: Analyze this game between GetClub & Zester.
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Jester: (White)
beginner: (Black)
Game Played at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
View Recorded Game: http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?id=DM13954&game=Chess
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
White -- Black
(Jester) -- (beginner)
1) Pe2-e4(2) Pe7-e6(0)
2) Pd2-d4(4) Pd7-d5(0)
3) Pe4-e5(6) Pc7-c5(0)
4) Pc2-c3(8) Nb8-c6(0)
5) Ng1-f3(6) Pc5-d4(12)
6) Pc3-d4(10) Bf8-b4(6)
7) Bc1-d2(12) Ng8-h6(12)
8) Bd2-b4(12) Nc6-b4(10)
9) Qd1-a4(12) Nb4-c6(20)
10) Bf1-b5(10) Ke8-g8(8)
11) Bb5-c6(42) Pb7-c6(12)
12) Qa4-c6(10) Ra8-b8(14)
13) Pb2-b3(16) Nh6-g4(22)
14) Ph2-h3(12) Ng4-h6(12)
15) Ke1-g1(10) Kg8-h8(8)
16) Nb1-d2(16) Nh6-f5(12)
17) Pg2-g4(12) Nf5-h4(14)
18) Ra1-c1(12) Ph7-h6(6)
19) Qc6-c5(14) Bc8-d7(6)
20) Qc5-c7(50) Bd7-b5(8)
21) Rf1-e1(12) Nh4-g6(10)
22) Pa2-a4(14) Bb5-d3(10)
23) Qc7-a7(14) Ng6-f4(16)
24) Kg1-h2(20) Bd3-e2(10)
25) Rc1-c3(14) Pf7-f5(22)
26) Pg4-f5(12) Rf8-f5(6)
27) Re1-g1(10) Qd8-f8(12)
28) Nf3-e1(12) Pg7-g5(20)
29) Rc3-c7(12) Kh8-g8(6)
30) Rc7-h7(12) Be2-d1(8)
31) Pf2-f3(12) Rb8-b4(12)
32) Ne1-d3(12) Nf4-d3(8)
33) Rg1-d1(12) Nd3-f4(16)
34) Rh7-c7(24) Ph6-h5(8)
35) Ph3-h4(12) Nf4-e2(20)
36) Qa7-a6(14) Ne2-d4(8)
37) Rc7-c8(34) Rf5-f3(8)
38) Rc8-f8(30) Rf3-f8(10)
39) Ph4-g5(10) Ph5-h4(16)
40) Kh2-h3(10) Rf8-f4(6)
41) Qa6-a7(14) Nd4-b3(8)
42) Pg5-g6(12) Kg8-f8(22)
43) Pa4-a5(12) Nb3-d2(8)
44) Pg6-g7(10) Kf8-g8(8)
45) Qa7-a8(10) Kg8-g7(8)
46) Rd1-g1(10) Rf4-g4(20)
47) Rg1-g4(70) Rb4-g4(12)
48) Kh3-g4(6) Kg7-f7(6)
49) Pa5-a6(12) Nd2-c4(22)
50) Kg4-g5(10) Ph4-h3(6)
51) Qa8-b7(14) Kf7-g8(12)
52) Kg5-f6(10) Ph3-h2(8)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jester: (White)
beginner: (Black)
Game Played at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
View Recorded Game: http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?id=DM13954&game=Chess
Bye
Sanny
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
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Date: 15 Jan 2008 04:44:35
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: Analyze this game between GetClub & Zester.
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On Jan 15, 4:04=A0pm, tin Brown <
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Date:
From: Martin Brown
Subject: Re: Analyze this game between GetClub & Zester.
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Date: 15 Jan 2008 01:56:29
From: help bot
Subject: Re: Analyze this game between GetClub & Zester.
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On Jan 15, 4:27 am, tin Brown <
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Date:
From: Martin Brown
Subject: Re: Analyze this game between GetClub & Zester.
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Date: 10 Jan 2008 21:44:06
From: help bot
Subject: Re: Analyze this game between GetClub & Zester.
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On Jan 10, 10:41 pm, Ralf Callenberg <[email protected] > wrote:
> 10.01.2008 06:05, help bot:
>
> > because with "O-O" the program
> > itself must figure out the whole thing: departure
> > squares and destination squares, not just a
> > portion. Chess is a complex game... .
>
> A programmer who has a problem with 0-0 instead of e1-g1, should go back
> and play Tetris or Tic-Tac-Toe and stay away from programming anything
> which is beyond 10 Print "Hello" 20 Goto 10.
That program of yours would waste a whole
lot of paper and ink, since it is an endless loop.
Ah-- maybe you just "print" to a CRT? Much
better. In fact, I believe I have written this same
program, some centuries ago, back when they
called a PDP/11 a micro-supercomputer, or
something along those lines. BASIC language,
and because most CRTs were green phosphor,
the amber ones were both rare and beautiful.
I like the idea of taking a legal-move generator
from the public domain, and then focusing on
tweaking the chess-knowledge part of the
program, rather than a never-ending struggle
to get just the legal moves portion right. But
then, the program is not entirely your own
creation, is it?
-- help bot
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Date: 10 Jan 2008 21:36:37
From: help bot
Subject: Re: Analyze this game between GetClub & Zester.
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On Jan 10, 11:47 am, "Thomas T. Veldhouse" <[email protected] > wrote:
> > I doubt any experienced player here is having trouble
> > following the notation. However, this funky free-style
> > notation cannot be input *automatically* into a chess
> > program for anno-Fritzation; they have to hand-enter
> > the moves, which is tedious.
>
> And as far as "Fritzation" goes ... why doesn't Sanny spring for a few dollars
> [or whatever currency you wish to trade in from the vendor of your choice] and
> actually buy the software and do this type of analysis himself? Heck, old
> Fritz 7 can be found on Ebay for pennies and is still much stronger than his
> engine and adequate for the analysis he is looking for.
In fact, Fritz 5.32 is now given away for free,
and IMO, that engine would demolish the
GetClub program quite easily on any level.
> Any questions as to
> Why something is better should be directed to the rec.games.chess.analysis
> group in any event.
True. There are a lot of postings here which
include bizarre newsgroups on top of the
obviously appropriate one(s).
> It just seems that Sanny is [possibly] making money off of your analysis and
> free advice.
He likely has made millions off of my advice,
just like that imbecile who once said to me:
"I see no advantage to a /graphical/ user
interface".
I had to explain that it's much like color TV:
once you've seen it, you can't just go back to
black & white. So he stole the idea, and the
rest, as they say, is history. ; >D
Seriously, I think Sanny is not doing very well
in that regard. Look at the chess section of his
site and you will see that the vast majority of
recorded games are played by a relative few
players.
The problem with using Fritz to try and
understand games is that while it's moves
are good, it's ability to explain the "why" of
the moves is horrible. As we saw where
Sanny asked about the relative values of
Bishops and Knights, he is starting from a
place of almost zero chess knowledge. His
"team" of programmers seems unable to
digest any existing works on the theory of
chess programming, and is shooting in the
dark. They still don't have tactics mastered
to the Class B level, or so it seems.
-- help bot
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Date: 10 Jan 2008 14:32:29
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Analyze this game between GetClub & Zester.
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> Soon Beginner Level will play much stronger Just wait for a week.
We've heard this before ...
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Date: 10 Jan 2008 06:58:48
From: SBD
Subject: Re: Analyze this game between GetClub & Zester.
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On Jan 9, 11:05=A0pm, help bot <[email protected] > wrote:
> On Jan 9, 8:33 pm, SBD <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > On Jan 7, 1:48 am, help bot <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > =A0 Castling is denoted by either "O-O", or else by
> > > "O-O-O", which is a throwback to the old descriptive
> > > style of notation.
>
> > No it isn't.
>
> =A0 A very long time ago, I noticed that some tabletop
> computers entered castling moves by naming the
> square the King (only) left and arrived on, like so:
>
> =A0E1 - G1.
>
> =A0 That is an algebraic notation. =A0
As is 0-0 or 0-0-0, no holdover or throwback from descriptive.
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Date: 09 Jan 2008 21:05:23
From: help bot
Subject: Re: Analyze this game between GetClub & Zester.
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On Jan 9, 8:33 pm, SBD <[email protected] > wrote:
> On Jan 7, 1:48 am, help bot <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Castling is denoted by either "O-O", or else by
> > "O-O-O", which is a throwback to the old descriptive
> > style of notation.
>
> No it isn't.
A very long time ago, I noticed that some tabletop
computers entered castling moves by naming the
square the King (only) left and arrived on, like so:
E1 - G1.
That is an algebraic notation. The notation used
by Sanny's people at GetClub is similar, in that
they name the departure and destination squares
for the King, while ignoring the Rook entirely.
Only an inherent recognition that a square (or
two) was skipped over allows one to deduce
that a castling move has occurred, since that
would otherwise be an illegal King move.
Now, people who are accustomed to seeing
"O-O" or "O-O-O" may get thrown off a bit by
the notation style at GetClub, and many have
complained that illegal moves sometimes
appear at the tail end of a game-- most often
a King moving into check or else remaining in
check. It creates a small problem for the
programmers, because with "O-O" the program
itself must figure out the whole thing: departure
squares and destination squares, not just a
portion. Chess is a complex game... .
-- help bot
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Date: 11 Jan 2008 04:41:50
From: Ralf Callenberg
Subject: Re: Analyze this game between GetClub & Zester.
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10.01.2008 06:05, help bot:
> because with "O-O" the program
> itself must figure out the whole thing: departure
> squares and destination squares, not just a
> portion. Chess is a complex game... .
A programmer who has a problem with 0-0 instead of e1-g1, should go back
and play Tetris or Tic-Tac-Toe and stay away from programming anything
which is beyond 10 Print "Hello" 20 Goto 10.
Greetings,
Ralf
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Date: 09 Jan 2008 17:33:26
From: SBD
Subject: Re: Analyze this game between GetClub & Zester.
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On Jan 7, 1:48=A0am, help bot <[email protected] > wrote:
> =A0 Castling is denoted by either "O-O", or else by
> "O-O-O", which is a throwback to the old descriptive
> style of notation.
No it isn't.
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Date: 07 Jan 2008 00:11:42
From: help bot
Subject: Re: Analyze this game between GetClub & Zester.
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On Jan 7, 2:17 am, Sanny <[email protected] > wrote:
> > I notice from the times that both programs are
> > moving fairly quickly, so it comes as no surprise
> > that the play was not "stellar".
> In future the game will play much better as a new technique has been
> found by my programmers to improve the game speed and it will play
> better than Jester. Just wait a week.
> > Essentially, once the book ran out for Black
> > (indicated by move times = 0), theGetClub
> > program grossly mishandled a closed position,
> > donated a pawn, and allowed a decisive
> I found it Chastled and gave the Pawn It should have played Bishop/
> Queen to protect its knight from Bishop+Queen attack.
>
> On analysis on Computer, I found It gave only 0.3 advantage to White
> after it Captured the Pawn instead of 1.0. I do not understand why
> white gets only 0.3 advantage.
It's probably because with correct play Black can
seize the now-open c-file.
> Further when Knight is played by Black it increased the score from 0.3
> to 1.0 for While. Why was White earlier had advantage of just 0.3
> despite it was a pawn up?
Black can seize the open c-file; maybe the program
"saw" a Black Rook reaching the seventh rank, and
gave a bonus for that?
> > Here's the scoop: in this opening, White is
> > happy when Black releases the tension by an
> > early cxd4, as in this game. There was no good
> > reason for Black to voluntarily surrender a pawn;
>
> Pawn could have been saved by playing Queen/Bishop to protect Black
> Knight that got pin with King. So I think it was Chastling that was
> wrong Move?
That is correct. When White threatened to win
a pawn after B-b5, Black could have defended
that threat with ...B-d7 -- a normal developing
move. Then, White would be in a small quandry,
as Black now "threatens" ...p-a6, and answering
with BxN loses the minor exchange.
> > Look again at the move times: at roughly 12
> > seconds per move in many cases, nobody here
> > is going to be "WOWed" by the overall quality of
> > play. But on some of the higher levels I have
> > seen theGetClubprogram play some very goodchess, now and then.
>
> Soon Beginner Level will play much stronger Just wait for a week.
I recently faced a human opponent who tried to
hold onto the Queen's Gambit pawn -- apparently,
another victim of the great Bernard Parham's
school of chess. These games against a nearly
book-less chess program at the Beginner level
remind me of my huge inherent advantage: I can
judge when to develop, and when to grab material.
At twelve seconds per move, your program is just
tossing a coin, for it lacks the time or the
wherewithal to make such judgments. On the
higher levels, the computer's vastly superior
speed allows it to try and calculate the outcomes,
so things are much more difficult for me.
-- help bot
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Date: 06 Jan 2008 23:48:34
From: help bot
Subject: Re: Analyze this game between GetClub & Zester.
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On Jan 7, 1:26 am, Sanny <[email protected] > wrote:
> > > Please analyze the game.
>
> > Please post it in standard algebraic notation.
>
> What is algebraic notation.?
>
> I think for example 40) Kh2-h3(10) Rf8-f4(6)
>
> It means King was moved from h2 to h3 in 10 seconds by White.
> and Rook was moved from f8 to f4 in 6 seconds. by Black.
>
> So it is easy to follow. It first displays the piece that is being
> moved R, N, B, K, Q, P and then the place where the piece original was
> and then the place where it was taken to.
>
> So Kh2-h3(10) means K (King) is moved from h2 to h3 in 10 seconds. It
> is very simple to follow above Notation.
>
> Are you finding it difficult to understand the moves then you can see
> whole game Animated on your Computer at Recorded Game.
I doubt any experienced player here is having trouble
following the notation. However, this funky free-style
notation cannot be input *automatically* into a chess
program for anno-Fritzation; they have to hand-enter
the moves, which is tedious.
Here's an example of a standard notation style, for
comparison:
1. e4 e6
2. d4 d5
3. e5 c5
4. c3 Nc6
5. Nf3 cd
6. cd Bb4+
7. Bd2
Castling is denoted by either "O-O", or else by
"O-O-O", which is a throwback to the old descriptive
style of notation.
-- help bot
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Date: 10 Jan 2008 16:47:53
From: Thomas T. Veldhouse
Subject: Re: Analyze this game between GetClub & Zester.
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In rec.games.chess.computer help bot <[email protected] > wrote:
>
> I doubt any experienced player here is having trouble
> following the notation. However, this funky free-style
> notation cannot be input *automatically* into a chess
> program for anno-Fritzation; they have to hand-enter
> the moves, which is tedious.
>
And as far as "Fritzation" goes ... why doesn't Sanny spring for a few dollars
[or whatever currency you wish to trade in from the vendor of your choice] and
actually buy the software and do this type of analysis himself? Heck, old
Fritz 7 can be found on Ebay for pennies and is still much stronger than his
engine and adequate for the analysis he is looking for. Any questions as to
Why something is better should be directed to the rec.games.chess.analysis
group in any event.
It just seems that Sanny is [possibly] making money off of your analysis and
free advice.
--
Thomas T. Veldhouse
America is the country where you buy a lifetime
supply of aspirin for one dollar, and use it up in two weeks.
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Date: 06 Jan 2008 23:17:14
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: Analyze this game between GetClub & Zester.
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> =A0 I notice from the times that both programs are
> moving fairly quickly, so it comes as no surprise
> that the play was not "stellar".
In future the game will play much better as a new technique has been
found by my programmers to improve the game speed and it will play
better than Jester. Just wait a week.
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
> =A0 Essentially, once the book ran out for Black
> (indicated by move times =3D 0), theGetClub
> program grossly mishandled a closed position,
> donated a pawn, and allowed a decisive
I found it Chastled and gave the Pawn It should have played Bishop/
Queen to protect its knight from Bishop+Queen attack.
On analysis on Computer, I found It gave only 0.3 advantage to White
after it Captured the Pawn instead of 1.0. I do not understand why
white gets only 0.3 advantage.
Further when Knight is played by Black it increased the score from 0.3
to 1.0 for While. Why was White earlier had advantage of just 0.3
despite it was a pawn up?
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
>
> =A0 Here's the scoop: in this opening, White is
> happy when Black releases the tension by an
> early cxd4, as in this game. =A0There was no good
> reason for Black to voluntarily surrender a pawn;
Pawn could have been saved by playing Queen/Bishop to protect Black
Knight that got pin with King. So I think it was Chastling that was
wrong Move?
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
> =A0 Look again at the move times: at roughly 12
> seconds per move in many cases, nobody here
> is going to be "WOWed" by the overall quality of
> play. =A0But on some of the higher levels I have
> seen theGetClubprogram play some very goodchess, now and then.
>
Soon Beginner Level will play much stronger Just wait for a week.
Bye
Sanny
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
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Date: 06 Jan 2008 22:26:45
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: Analyze this game between GetClub & Zester.
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On Jan 7, 4:46=A0am, Ron <[email protected] > wrote:
> In article
> <efc70d8c-6b48-4817-990d-982ebadf1...@k39g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>,
>
> =A0Sanny <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Please analyze the game.
>
> Please post it in standard algebraic notation.
What is algebraic notation.?
I think for example 40) Kh2-h3(10) Rf8-f4(6)
It means King was moved from h2 to h3 in 10 seconds by White.
and Rook was moved from f8 to f4 in 6 seconds. by Black.
So it is easy to follow. It first displays the piece that is being
moved R, N, B, K, Q, P and then the place where the piece original was
and then the place where it was taken to.
So Kh2-h3(10) means K (King) is moved from h2 to h3 in 10 seconds. It
is very simple to follow above Notation.
Are you finding it difficult to understand the moves then you can see
whole game Animated on your Computer at Recorded Game.
View Recorded Game: http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?id=3DDM13954&game=3D=
Chess
Bye
Sanny
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
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Date: 06 Jan 2008 20:46:57
From: help bot
Subject: Re: Analyze this game between GetClub & Zester.
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On Jan 6, 3:40 am, Sanny <[email protected] > wrote:
> Jester: (White)
> beginner: (Black)
> Game Played at:http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
> View Recorded Game:http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?id=DM13954&game=Chess
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> White -- Black
> (Jester) -- (beginner)
>
> 1) Pe2-e4(2) Pe7-e6(0)
> 2) Pd2-d4(4) Pd7-d5(0)
> 3) Pe4-e5(6) Pc7-c5(0)
> 4) Pc2-c3(8) Nb8-c6(0)
> 5) Ng1-f3(6) Pc5-d4(12)
> 6) Pc3-d4(10) Bf8-b4(6)
> 7) Bc1-d2(12) Ng8-h6(12)
> 8) Bd2-b4(12) Nc6-b4(10)
> 9) Qd1-a4(12) Nb4-c6(20)
> 10) Bf1-b5(10) Ke8-g8(8)
> 11) Bb5-c6(42) Pb7-c6(12)
> 12) Qa4-c6(10) Ra8-b8(14)
> 13) Pb2-b3(16) Nh6-g4(22)
> 14) Ph2-h3(12) Ng4-h6(12)
> 15) Ke1-g1(10) Kg8-h8(8)
> 16) Nb1-d2(16) Nh6-f5(12)
> 17) Pg2-g4(12) Nf5-h4(14)
> 18) Ra1-c1(12) Ph7-h6(6)
> 19) Qc6-c5(14) Bc8-d7(6)
> 20) Qc5-c7(50) Bd7-b5(8)
> 21) Rf1-e1(12) Nh4-g6(10)
> 22) Pa2-a4(14) Bb5-d3(10)
> 23) Qc7-a7(14) Ng6-f4(16)
> 24) Kg1-h2(20) Bd3-e2(10)
> 25) Rc1-c3(14) Pf7-f5(22)
> 26) Pg4-f5(12) Rf8-f5(6)
> 27) Re1-g1(10) Qd8-f8(12)
> 28) Nf3-e1(12) Pg7-g5(20)
> 29) Rc3-c7(12) Kh8-g8(6)
> 30) Rc7-h7(12) Be2-d1(8)
> 31) Pf2-f3(12) Rb8-b4(12)
> 32) Ne1-d3(12) Nf4-d3(8)
> 33) Rg1-d1(12) Nd3-f4(16)
> 34) Rh7-c7(24) Ph6-h5(8)
> 35) Ph3-h4(12) Nf4-e2(20)
> 36) Qa7-a6(14) Ne2-d4(8)
> 37) Rc7-c8(34) Rf5-f3(8)
> 38) Rc8-f8(30) Rf3-f8(10)
> 39) Ph4-g5(10) Ph5-h4(16)
> 40) Kh2-h3(10) Rf8-f4(6)
> 41) Qa6-a7(14) Nd4-b3(8)
> 42) Pg5-g6(12) Kg8-f8(22)
> 43) Pa4-a5(12) Nb3-d2(8)
> 44) Pg6-g7(10) Kf8-g8(8)
> 45) Qa7-a8(10) Kg8-g7(8)
> 46) Rd1-g1(10) Rf4-g4(20)
> 47) Rg1-g4(70) Rb4-g4(12)
> 48) Kh3-g4(6) Kg7-f7(6)
> 49) Pa5-a6(12) Nd2-c4(22)
> 50) Kg4-g5(10) Ph4-h3(6)
> 51) Qa8-b7(14) Kf7-g8(12)
> 52) Kg5-f6(10) Ph3-h2(8)
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Jester: (White)
> beginner: (Black)
I notice from the times that both programs are
moving fairly quickly, so it comes as no surprise
that the play was not "stellar".
Essentially, once the book ran out for Black
(indicated by move times = 0), the GetClub
program grossly mishandled a closed position,
donated a pawn, and allowed a decisive
penetration of the heavy pieces. Still, Jester as
White did not exactly keep control, allowing all
sorts of fun and games on the f-file and behind
his own lines.
Here's the scoop: in this opening, White is
happy when Black releases the tension by an
early cxd4, as in this game. There was no good
reason for Black to voluntarily surrender a pawn;
that's just weak play. White, for his part ought
to have grabbed the c-file earlier, putting an end
to shenanigans via a one-two-three punch of
Queen, Rook, and Rook against the exposed
King; he cannot just fiddle around with a Black
Knight on f4!
Look again at the move times: at roughly 12
seconds per move in many cases, nobody here
is going to be "WOWed" by the overall quality of
play. But on some of the higher levels I have
seen the GetClub program play some very good
chess, now and then.
-- help bot
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Date: 06 Jan 2008 04:42:01
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: Analyze this game between GetClub & Zester.
|
On Jan 6, 3:58=A0pm, "Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (Wlod)"
<[email protected] > wrote:
> Say "please".
>
> =A0 =A0 Wlod
Please analyze the game.
Bye
Sanny
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
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Date: 06 Jan 2008 15:46:58
From: Ron
Subject: Re: Analyze this game between GetClub & Zester.
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In article
<efc70d8c-6b48-4817-990d-982ebadf1977@k39g2000hsf.googlegroups.com >,
Sanny <[email protected] > wrote:
> Please analyze the game.
Please post it in standard algebraic notation.
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Date: 06 Jan 2008 02:58:59
From: Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (Wlod)
Subject: Re: Analyze this game between GetClub & Zester.
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Say "please".
Wlod
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