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Main
Date: 22 Jul 2008 22:57:13
From: Sanny
Subject: 1. e4 c5 2. Bc4??? What to do with it?
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Help Bot (White) Played: 1. e4 c5 2. Bc4 there is no opening after
that.
Help Bot win the game by trapping a Knight with his Bishop. I went to
search for this line and found only people with low rating play Bc4.
Higher Rated (2700+) player never play Bc4 Why?
What was wrong with easy Level that it has to lose the Knight? Can you
mark the wrong moves?
Game Played between help bot and easy at GetClub.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
help bot: (White)
easy: (Black)
Game Played at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
View Recorded Game: http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?id=DM23296&game=Chess
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
White -- Black
(help bot) -- (easy)
1. e2-e4{8} c7-c5{0}
2. Bf1-c4{10} Nb8-c6{44}
3. Ng1-f3{24} e7-e6{22}
4. Ke1-g1{16} d7-d5{20}
5. e4-d5{10} e6-d5{78}
6. Rf1-e1{6} Bc8-e6{48}
7. Bc4-b5{14} Bf8-d6{24}
8. d2-d4{12} c5-d4{186}
9. Nf3-d4{18} Qd8-d7{28}
10. Nb1-c3{22} Ng8-e7{114}
11. Nd4-e6{132} f7-e6{34}
12. Qd1-g4{16} Ke8-g8{24}
13. Qg4-e6{16} Qd7-e6{42}
14. Re1-e6{8} Ra8-d8{44}
15. Bc1-g5{36} Rf8-e8{82}
16. Ra1-e1{38} Re8-f8{104}
17. Bb5-c6{18} Bd6-c5{134}
18. Bg5-e7{42} Bc5-f2{78}
19. Kg1-h1{26} Bf2-e1{36}
20. Re6-e1{10} b7-c6{34}
21. Be7-d8{26} Rf8-d8{44}
22. Re1-d1{32} Rd8-b8{28}
23. b2-b3{14} g7-g6{48}
24. Kh1-g1{10} Kg8-g7{32}
25. Kg1-f2{26} h7-h6{54}
26. Kf2-e3{28} g6-g5{22}
27. Ke3-d4{24} Rb8-f8{82}
28. Rd1-d2{24} h6-h5{34}
29. Kd4-c5{16} Rf8-f6{28}
30. Nc3-d5{78} c6-d5{20}
31. Kc5-d5{30} h5-h4{104}
32. h2-h3{30} Kg7-g6{50}
33. c2-c4{24} Rf6-f8{60}
34. Kd5-e4{46} Rf8-f4{88}
35. Ke4-e3{14} Rf4-f5{58}
36. b3-b4{34} a7-a6{54}
37. c4-c5{30} Rf5-e5{46}
38. Ke3-d4{26} Re5-e7{68}
39. c5-c6{18} Kg6-h5{54}
40. Rd2-c2{26} Re7-c7{84}
41. a2-a4{24} a6-a5{38}
42. b4-b5{14} Rc7-c8{52}
43. c6-c7{10} Rc8-e8{46}
44. Qc7-c8{Q}{26} Re8-c8{66}
45. Rc2-c8{8} g5-g4{136}
46. Rc8-c5{20} Kh5-g6{22}
47. h3-g4{10} Kg6-h7{48}
48. Rc5-c6{16} Kh7-g7{20}
49. b5-b6{10} Kg7-f7{24}
50. b6-b7{12} h4-h3{34}
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
help bot: (White)
easy: (Black)
Game Played at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
View Recorded Game: http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?id=DM23296&game=Chess
Its very bad to see how Help Bot win such a strong Opponent so easily.
Can you suggest me First 4 Moves for this Opening "1. e4 c5 2. Bc4" So
that I add the correct Opening.
Bye
Sanny
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
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Date: 24 Jul 2008 22:45:46
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: 1. e4 c5 2. Bc4??? What to do with it?
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Here is another game with GetClub Beginner Level
GetClub got its knight traped and then lost the game. Actualy it could
have saved the knight but It was thinking just 6 depth ahead while the
trap was 8 depth away.
18 ..... Ra6 was the wrong move. If it had played 18 ...... Na6 It
could have saved the Knight.
Game Played between sanjay11 and beginner at GetClub.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
sanjay11: (White)
beginner: (Black)
Game Played at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
View Recorded Game: http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?id=DM23386&game=Chess
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
White -- Black
(sanjay11) -- (beginner)
1. e2-e4{10} e7-e5{0}
2. d2-d4{6} e5-d4{0}
3. Qd1-d4{6} Nb8-c6{10}
4. Qd4-e3{8} Qd8-f6{14}
5. Ng1-f3{12} Bf8-d6{18}
6. Nb1-c3{10} Nc6-b4{12}
7. Bf1-d3{10} Qf6-e6{74}
8. Nc3-b5{12} Ng8-f6{26}
9. Nb5-a7{22} Nf6-g4{40}
10. Qe3-d4{12} Ke8-g8{12}
11. Na7-c8{84} Rf8-c8{44}
12. a2-a3{12} c7-c5{56}
13. Qd4-c3{26} Ng4-f6{22}
14. Ke1-g1{14} Nf6-e4{10}
15. Bd3-e4{14} Qe6-e4{18}
16. Bc1-h6{16} Qe4-g4{32}
17. Rf1-d1{16} Rc8-c6{32}
18. Bh6-g5{16} Rc6-a6{62} {Black made wrong move should have played
Knight to a6}
19. b2-b3{20} f7-f6{16}
20. Bg5-e3{16} Qg4-e4{6}
21. a3-b4{16} Ra6-a1{10}
22. Rd1-a1{12} Ra8-a1{6}
23. Qc3-a1{16} b7-b6{10}
24. Qa1-d1{12} Qe4-e6{6}
25. Qd1-d3{12} g7-g6{6}
26. Qd3-a6{14} f6-f5{16}
27. b4-c5{16} Bd6-c5{20}
28. Qa6-c8{14} Bc5-f8{6}
29. Nf3-d4{14} Qe6-e7{14}
30. h2-h3{12} Qe7-e4{14}
31. Qc8-d7{14} f5-f4{18}
32. Be3-d2{14} f4-f3{22}
33. g2-g3{12} b6-b5{16}
34. Qd7-d8{14} Qe4-e5{18}
35. Kg1-h2{14} Qe5-c5{34}
36. c2-c3{20} b5-b4{10}
37. c3-b4{12} Qc5-d6{28}
38. Qd8-d6{18} Bf8-d6{0}
39. Nd4-f3{12} Kg8-f7{12}
40. Nf3-g5{16} Kf7-g8{10}
41. b4-b5{16} Bd6-b8{0}
42. b5-b6{12} h7-h6{8}
43. Bd2-f4{14} h6-g5{10}
44. Bf4-b8{12} Kg8-g7{16}
45. Bb8-e5{10} Kg7-f7{54}
46. b6-b7{12} g5-g4{10}
47. h3-g4{14} g6-g5{22}
48. Qb7-b8{Q}{10} Kf7-e6{28}
49. f2-f4{16} Ke6-d5{10}
50. f4-g5{12} Kd5-e4{2}
51. g5-g6{14} Ke4-e3{16}
52. Kh2-g2{16} Ke3-e4{26}
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
sanjay11: (White)
beginner: (Black)
Game Played at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
View Recorded Game: http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?id=DM23386&game=Chess
This was just beginner Level. I suppose if one plays with Easy Level
It would be a very tough game.
Help Bot Try a game with Easy Level and tell how it plays.
Bye
Sanny
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
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Date: 24 Jul 2008 07:04:57
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: 1. e4 c5 2. Bc4??? What to do with it?
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> Today a few improvements were done So that it defends its pieces
> properly. Lets see how it works.
Although there is no doubt that GitClub plays considerably better than
it once did, and is a match for the average human player, it is still
a rather poor computer program. I wonder if at least one problem is
Sanny's "poking the jello" approach.
When a bug bulges out of the mass of jello that is GitClub, Sanny
pokes it back with an instant fix and claims that GitClub is twice
improved. But poking one side of the mass of jello causes more bulges
elsewhere. In other words, Sanny --- when you make an instant fix ---
do you evaluate its possible unwanted side effects elsewhere?
I think GitClub needs a coordinated top-to-bottom rewrite of its
playing logic, to adhere to a clear and consistent set of playing
principles, based on sound evaluation methodologies. Otherwise it
will forever be carrot jello.
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Date: 24 Jul 2008 05:33:26
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: 1. e4 c5 2. Bc4??? What to do with it?
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> > So you are in favour of Gambits.
>
> =A0 Not all gambits. =A0I like the Morra because
> it is very difficult for Black to exploit his
> extra pawn, while White has an easier
> time in the first two thirds of the game: the
> opening and middle-game. =A0I cannot seem
> to visualize a scenario in which theGetClubprogram snatches the pawn,
> defends perfectly, and then converts a
> single pawn advantage to a win against me
> in the endgame. =A0(Maybe it's just me, but
> this seems virtually impossible.)
Today a few improvements were done So that it defends its pieces
properly. Lets see how it works.
Bye
Sanny
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
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Date: 24 Jul 2008 05:27:51
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: 1. e4 c5 2. Bc4??? What to do with it?
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Here is a game after improvement against Jester. Let me know if you
still find anything wrong in its game.
Please note this is just Beginner Level weakest of all [Except Baby
Level]
Game Played between sanjay11 and beginner at GetClub.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
sanjay11: (White)
beginner: (Black)
Game Played at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
View Recorded Game: http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?id=DM23359&game=Chess
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
White -- Black
(sanjay11) -- (beginner)
1. e2-e4{116} e7-e5{0}
2. Ng1-f3{6} Nb8-c6{0}
3. Bf1-b5{6} a7-a6{0}
4. Bb5-c6{8} d7-c6{14}
5. Ke1-g1{8} Bf8-d6{6}
6. d2-d4{12} e5-d4{14}
7. Qd1-d4{12} f7-f6{10}
8. Nb1-c3{10} Ng8-e7{14}
9. Qd4-c4{8} b7-b5{30}
10. Qc4-e2{10} Bc8-g4{42}
11. h2-h3{14} Bg4-f3{54}
12. Qe2-f3{10} b5-b4{22}
13. Nc3-e2{10} Qd8-c8{18}
14. Qf3-b3{14} f6-f5{22}
15. Ne2-d4{12} f5-e4{6}
16. Rf1-e1{12} c6-c5{28}
17. Nd4-e6{10} Qc8-b7{10}
18. Ne6-g7{18} Ke8-d8{26}
19. Bc1-g5{10} c5-c4{26}
20. Qb3-c4{12} c7-c5{78}
21. Ra1-d1{12} Kd8-c7{24}
22. Rd1-d6{14} Kc7-b8{12}
23. Bg5-f4{12} Ra8-a7{28}
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
sanjay11: (White)
beginner: (Black)
Game Played at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
View Recorded Game: http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?id=DM23359&game=Chess
Jester easily got the center position and trapped the king in the
corner.
Most of the moves for GetClub(Black) were forced moves.
Bye
Sanny
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
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Date:
From: Martin Brown
Subject: Re: 1. e4 c5 2. Bc4??? What to do with it?
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Date: 24 Jul 2008 05:01:40
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: 1. e4 c5 2. Bc4??? What to do with it?
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> >> Its very bad to see how Help Bot win such a strong Opponent so easily.
>
> > =A0 A /strong/ opponent? =A0Where? =A0I don't see
> > any strong opponent.
>
> Something is wrong with its capture or quiessence logic. It should have
> easily seen these exchanges at move 17.
Today a modification was done in its capture technique. I hope now it
will not do such mistakes.
Only after a few games are played I will know if the problem is
removed or not. I am playing a few games against Rybka to see if
GetClub has improved or not.
Bye
Sanny
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
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Date: 23 Jul 2008 23:15:08
From: help bot
Subject: Re: 1. e4 c5 2. Bc4??? What to do with it?
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On Jul 24, 1:34 am, Sanny <[email protected] > wrote:
> Gooad analysis, But adding these strategies are very difficult for
> getclub to understand. I hope Normal Level will be able to see these
> wrong moves by longer depth of analysis.
>
> > I didn't like Bc4 in this opening; the
> > Bishop can get kicked around or be
> > "forced" to trade for a lousy Knight (or
> > else retreat with loss of time). Next
> > time I may try the Morra Gambit.
>
> So you are in favour of Gambits.
Not all gambits. I like the Morra because
it is very difficult for Black to exploit his
extra pawn, while White has an easier
time in the first two thirds of the game: the
opening and middle-game. I cannot seem
to visualize a scenario in which the
GetClub program snatches the pawn,
defends perfectly, and then converts a
single pawn advantage to a win against me
in the endgame. (Maybe it's just me, but
this seems virtually impossible.)
-- help bot
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Date: 23 Jul 2008 22:34:55
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: 1. e4 c5 2. Bc4??? What to do with it?
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Gooad analysis, But adding these strategies are very difficult for
getclub to understand. I hope Normal Level will be able to see these
wrong moves by longer depth of analysis.
> =A0 I didn't like Bc4 in this opening; the
> Bishop can get kicked around or be
> "forced" to trade for a lousy Knight (or
> else retreat with loss of time). =A0Next
> time I may try the Morra Gambit.
So you are in favour of Gambits.
Bye
Sanny
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
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Date: 23 Jul 2008 02:21:07
From: help bot
Subject: Re: 1. e4 c5 2. Bc4??? What to do with it?
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Sanny wrote:
> > > White -- Black
> > > (help bot) -- (easy)
> >
> > > 1. e2-e4{8} c7-c5{0}
> > > 2. Bf1-c4{10} Nb8-c6{44}
> > > 3. Ng1-f3{24} e7-e6{22}
> > > 4. Ke1-g1{16} d7-d5{20}
> > > 5. e4-d5{10} e6-d5{78}
> > > 6. Rf1-e1{6} Bc8-e6{48}
> > > 7. Bc4-b5{14} Bf8-d6{24}
> > > 8. d2-d4{12} *c5-d4* {186}
> >
> > =EF=BF=BD There's one.
>
> What was the correct move here?
*Develop* the Knight.
> > > 9. Nf3-d4{18} Qd8-d7{28}
> > > 10. Nb1-c3{22} Ng8-e7{114}
> > > 11. Nd4-e6{132} f7-e6{34}
> > > 12. Qd1-g4{16} Ke8-g8{24}
> > > 13. Qg4-e6{16} Qd7-e6{42}
> > > 14. Re1-e6{8} *Ra8-d8* {44}
> >
> > =EF=BF=BD There's another.
>
> What was the correct move here?
14. ...Bc5
> > > 15. Bc1-g5{36} *Rf8-e8* {82}
> >
> > =EF=BF=BD Walks right in to a self-pin.
>
> What was the correct move here?
This move is okay-- provided it is
followed by ...Kf7 (which it wasn't).
> > > 16. Ra1-e1{38} *Re8-f8* {104}
> >
> > =EF=BF=BD Loses material. =EF=BF=BDEtc.
>
> What was the correct move here?
I decided to completely ignore the
threat of ...Bxf2+ and just gobble as
much material as I could as fast as I
could, and I came out a full piece
ahead, plus pawns.
I figure that 16. ...Kf7 was the last
chance to not hang any more material.
> > =EF=BF=BD As far as I can see, the program did not
> > go wrong in the very first few moves, but
> > rather, it was outplayed in the middle-
> > game and put up no fight whatever in the
> > endgame.
>
> Still I added 2 openings from various sites. So next time you play Bc4
> you will get moves as per opening. So it will save your time.
I didn't like Bc4 in this opening; the
Bishop can get kicked around or be
"forced" to trade for a lousy Knight (or
else retreat with loss of time). Next
time I may try the Morra Gambit.
-- help bot
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Date: 23 Jul 2008 01:08:08
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: 1. e4 c5 2. Bc4??? What to do with it?
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> > White -- Black
> > (help bot) -- (easy)
>
> > 1. e2-e4{8} c7-c5{0}
> > 2. Bf1-c4{10} Nb8-c6{44}
> > 3. Ng1-f3{24} e7-e6{22}
> > 4. Ke1-g1{16} d7-d5{20}
> > 5. e4-d5{10} e6-d5{78}
> > 6. Rf1-e1{6} Bc8-e6{48}
> > 7. Bc4-b5{14} Bf8-d6{24}
> > 8. d2-d4{12} *c5-d4* {186}
>
> =A0 There's one.
What was the correct move here?
> > 9. Nf3-d4{18} Qd8-d7{28}
> > 10. Nb1-c3{22} Ng8-e7{114}
> > 11. Nd4-e6{132} f7-e6{34}
> > 12. Qd1-g4{16} Ke8-g8{24}
> > 13. Qg4-e6{16} Qd7-e6{42}
> > 14. Re1-e6{8} *Ra8-d8* {44}
>
> =A0 There's another.
What was the correct move here?
> > 15. Bc1-g5{36} *Rf8-e8* {82}
>
> =A0 Walks right in to a self-pin.
What was the correct move here?
>
> > 16. Ra1-e1{38} *Re8-f8* {104}
>
> =A0 Loses material. =A0Etc.
What was the correct move here?
> =A0 As far as I can see, the program did not
> go wrong in the very first few moves, but
> rather, it was outplayed in the middle-
> game and put up no fight whatever in the
> endgame.
Still I added 2 openings from various sites. So next time you play Bc4
you will get moves as per opening. So it will save your time.
Bye
Sanny
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
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Date: 23 Jul 2008 00:34:22
From: help bot
Subject: Re: 1. e4 c5 2. Bc4??? What to do with it?
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Sanny wrote:
> Help Bot (White) Played: 1. e4 c5 2. Bc4 there is no opening after
> that.
>
> Help Bot win the game by trapping a Knight with his Bishop. I went to
> search for this line and found only people with low rating play Bc4.
> Higher Rated (2700+) player never play Bc4 Why?
If you go to chessgames.com you will find that,
until now, it was thought that Black seized the
upper-hand with ...e6, soon followed by ...d5--
kicking White's KB around.
But as this game showed, that plan fails when
countered, not by random piece shuffling, but by
well-considered development along with superb
tactical piece play and flawless technique, not
to mention perfect timing, complete sight of the
board, etc., etc.
> What was wrong with easy Level that it has to lose the Knight? Can you
> mark the wrong moves?
What, all of them?
> White -- Black
> (help bot) -- (easy)
>
> 1. e2-e4{8} c7-c5{0}
> 2. Bf1-c4{10} Nb8-c6{44}
> 3. Ng1-f3{24} e7-e6{22}
> 4. Ke1-g1{16} d7-d5{20}
> 5. e4-d5{10} e6-d5{78}
> 6. Rf1-e1{6} Bc8-e6{48}
> 7. Bc4-b5{14} Bf8-d6{24}
> 8. d2-d4{12} *c5-d4* {186}
There's one.
> 9. Nf3-d4{18} Qd8-d7{28}
> 10. Nb1-c3{22} Ng8-e7{114}
> 11. Nd4-e6{132} f7-e6{34}
> 12. Qd1-g4{16} Ke8-g8{24}
> 13. Qg4-e6{16} Qd7-e6{42}
> 14. Re1-e6{8} *Ra8-d8* {44}
There's another.
> 15. Bc1-g5{36} *Rf8-e8* {82}
Walks right in to a self-pin.
> 16. Ra1-e1{38} *Re8-f8* {104}
Loses material. Etc.
> 17. Bb5-c6{18} Bd6-c5{134}
> 18. Bg5-e7{42} Bc5-f2{78}
> 19. Kg1-h1{26} Bf2-e1{36}
> 20. Re6-e1{10} b7-c6{34}
> 21. Be7-d8{26} Rf8-d8{44}
> 22. Re1-d1{32} Rd8-b8{28}
> 23. b2-b3{14} g7-g6{48}
> 24. Kh1-g1{10} Kg8-g7{32}
> 25. Kg1-f2{26} h7-h6{54}
> 26. Kf2-e3{28} g6-g5{22}
> 27. Ke3-d4{24} Rb8-f8{82}
> 28. Rd1-d2{24} h6-h5{34}
> 29. Kd4-c5{16} Rf8-f6{28}
> 30. Nc3-d5{78} c6-d5{20}
> 31. Kc5-d5{30} h5-h4{104}
> 32. h2-h3{30} Kg7-g6{50}
> 33. c2-c4{24} Rf6-f8{60}
> 34. Kd5-e4{46} Rf8-f4{88}
> 35. Ke4-e3{14} Rf4-f5{58}
> 36. b3-b4{34} a7-a6{54}
> 37. c4-c5{30} Rf5-e5{46}
> 38. Ke3-d4{26} Re5-e7{68}
> 39. c5-c6{18} Kg6-h5{54}
> 40. Rd2-c2{26} Re7-c7{84}
> 41. a2-a4{24} a6-a5{38}
> 42. b4-b5{14} Rc7-c8{52}
> 43. c6-c7{10} Rc8-e8{46}
> 44. Qc7-c8{Q}{26} Re8-c8{66}
> 45. Rc2-c8{8} g5-g4{136}
> 46. Rc8-c5{20} Kh5-g6{22}
> 47. h3-g4{10} Kg6-h7{48}
> 48. Rc5-c6{16} Kh7-g7{20}
> 49. b5-b6{10} Kg7-f7{24}
> 50. b6-b7{12} h4-h3{34}
> Its very bad to see how Help Bot win such a strong Opponent so easily.
A /strong/ opponent? Where? I don't see
any strong opponent.
> Can you suggest me First 4 Moves for this Opening "1. e4 c5 2. Bc4" So
> that I add the correct Opening.
As far as I can see, the program did not
go wrong in the very first few moves, but
rather, it was outplayed in the middle-
game and put up no fight whatever in the
endgame.
-- help bot
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Date:
From: Martin Brown
Subject: Re: 1. e4 c5 2. Bc4??? What to do with it?
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