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Main
Date: 29 May 2008 22:39:20
From: Sanny
Subject: Zebediah took 47 moves to win Advance Level.
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Zebediah used to win the Advance level in 30 moves earlier. But as the
game was improved by Help Bot Suggestions, I find that last 2 games
Zebediiah is taking more than 40 moves to win the game.
And in todays game he needed 47 moves to win. So a clear sight of
improvement for GetClub Chess is seen.
Zebediah use some very strong computer to beat the Advance Level.
Advance level thinks for 30 min / move So it thinks atleast 18 depth
ahead.
Do you think there is any scope of further improvement in GetClubs
game.
Because of your suggestions GetClub is playing like a beast. But still
it need more strength to win against Zebediah a big Chess cruncher.
Game Played between zebediah and advance at GetClub.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
zebediah: (Black)
advance: (White)
Game Played at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
View Recorded Game: http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?id=DM20344&game=Chess
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
White -- Black
(advance) -- (zebediah)
1. e2-e4{0} c7-c5{24}
2. Ng1-f3{0} Nb8-c6{6}
3. Nb1-c3{0} g7-g6{298}
4. d2-d4{1830} c5-d4{1270}
5. Nf3-d4{1930} Bf8-g7{2556}
6. Bc1-e3{2590} Ng8-f6{1472}
7. Nd4-c6{1290} b7-c6{472}
8. Bf1-c4{1624} Ke8-g8{1332}
9. Be3-d4{2256} c6-c5{3578}
10. Bd4-c5{0} Qd8-c7{788}
11. Bc5-e7{1348} Qc7-c4{386}
12. Be7-f8{3088} Kg8-f8{178}
13. Qd1-d3{1336} Qc4-c6{130}
14. Ke1-c1{1966} Ra8-b8{1308}
15. Qd3-d6{1920} Qc6-d6{748}
16. Rd1-d6{1754} Nf6-g4{12}
17. f2-f4{1750} Ng4-e3{194}
18. e4-e5{2314} Ne3-g2{222}
19. Rh1-f1{2808} Ng2-e3{32}
20. Rf1-f3{2266} Ne3-f5{818}
21. Rd6-d3{1946} f7-f6{262}
22. Rd3-d5{1606} Bc8-b7{634}
23. e5-f6{1744} Bg7-f6{6}
24. Rd5-b5{2784} Nf5-d4{62}
25. Rb5-b7{1350} Rb8-b7{22}
26. Rf3-f2{2324} Nd4-f5{42}
27. Nc3-d1{3514} Rb7-b4{1652}
28. Kc1-b1{1376} Rb4-d4{36}
29. Rf2-f1{1472} Kf8-f7{288}
30. c2-c3{2058} Rd4-d2{140}
31. Rf1-h1{2824} d7-d5{240}
32. a2-a3{2092} d5-d4{26}
33. c3-d4{2218} Nf5-d4{34}
34. Kb1-c1{1834} Nd4-b3{854}
35. Kc1-b1{1590} Nb3-c5{4410}
36. h2-h3{2542} Nc5-d3{156}
37. f4-f5{1548} g6-f5{176}
38. b2-b4{2924} f5-f4{176}
39. Rh1-g1{2936} f4-f3{142}
40. Rg1-f1{2118} f3-f2{194}
41. h3-h4{1480} Rd2-d1{316}
42. Rf1-d1{1286} Nd3-e1{476}
43. Kb1-a2{1400} Qf2-f1{Q}{26}
44. Rd1-d7{1332} Kf7-e6{40}
45. Rd7-c7{1386} Qf1-f2{32}
46. Ka2-b3{1558} Qf2-g3{30}
47. Kb3-c4{602}
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
zebediah: (Black)
advance: (White)
Game Played at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
View Recorded Game: http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?id=DM20344&game=Chess
What do you think should be improved in GetClub Chess? Is it loosing
because of strategical mistake or the depth of calculations?
How much more deep it should see in 30 min / move.
How much deep can a Strong Chess Player see? Zebediah is a great
Challenge for GetClub Chess.
Bye
Sanny
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
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Date: 03 Jun 2008 22:19:40
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: Zebediah took 47 moves to win Advance Level.
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> =A0 The Java applet won't seem to load. =A0I had a free
> anti-virus program on my machine (unlike that
> numb-skull, Larry Parr) and it reported that it had
> expired. =A0So I went and got another free anti-virus
> program, and ever since I installed it, the Java
> applet seems to freeze when attempting to load.
> Maybe it considers such an applet to be a
> security threat? =A0Or maybe I need to specifically
> approve it before it will load? =A0I will do a search
> for the Jester program, and see if it has the same
> Java-applet trouble.
Just reinstall the latest Java Plugin from the net. Its free to load
and it will replace or add the latest version.
If even then it do not work. See if Browser Settings have disabled
Java and Javascripts.?
Or call some technical person to correct the problem.
Bye
Sanny
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
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Date: 03 Jun 2008 16:45:31
From: help bot
Subject: Re: Zebediah took 47 moves to win Advance Level.
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On Jun 3, 12:40 pm, Sanny <[email protected] > wrote:
> Thats great. I read an interview of Kasparov he said for some he just
> sees 4-5 deep while for others he can see upto 15 moves.
Comparing me to GK is like comparing an elephant
to a gnat; it is like comparing the Amazon river to a
water fountain; it is like comparing the Rybka engine
to GetClub's; it's like comparing a watermelon to a
grape; like comparing the Himalaya mountains to a
mole hill. By the way, did you know you are living
on a sub-continent that is CRASHING INTO Asia at
fantastic speed? That this is what created the
highest mountains in the world? Where I live, it's all
very boring; nobody is crashing into anybody, and
when we went to see the (Blue Ridge) "mountains",
they said: "There they are!", to which I replied:
"Where? Behind these foothills?"
> All depends on the position.
True. If it is bare King versus bare King, I am
/very nearly/ Mr. Kasparov's equal! And I think I
can beat him -- provided he doesn't cheat -- at
Queen odds. (I mean of course that he must
give *me* Queen odds--- not the other way
around.)
> How are you facing the Advance Level? Have you reached the middle
> game?
The Java applet won't seem to load. I had a free
anti-virus program on my machine (unlike that
numb-skull, Larry Parr) and it reported that it had
expired. So I went and got another free anti-virus
program, and ever since I installed it, the Java
applet seems to freeze when attempting to load.
Maybe it considers such an applet to be a
security threat? Or maybe I need to specifically
approve it before it will load? I will do a search
for the Jester program, and see if it has the same
Java-applet trouble.
-- help bot
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Date: 03 Jun 2008 09:40:27
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: Zebediah took 47 moves to win Advance Level.
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> > Do you really see till 20 depth?
>
> =A0 No. =A0However, I can sometimes find the same
> move as an engine which looks, say, twice that
> deep, using /strategic understanding/.
>
Thats great. I read an interview of Kasparov he said for some he just
sees 4-5 deep while for others he can see upto 15 moves.
All depends on the position.
How are you facing the Advance Level? Have you reached the middle
game?
Bye
Sanny
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
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Date: 03 Jun 2008 01:54:30
From: help bot
Subject: Re: Zebediah took 47 moves to win Advance Level.
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On Jun 2, 5:26 am, Sanny <[email protected] > wrote:
> Human beings IQ drops with Old age and never increases and brain cells
> start dieing as we age.
Don't believe everything you read. I frequently
stumble across comments about how "scientists
believed" this or that, only to discover that they
were completely wrong. One example might be
where some "scientists" claimed that brain cells
die off as we age, and cannot ever be repaired or
replaced. Or that dogs are completely color-blind.
The fact is, no "scientist" ever believed anything
that could so easily be disproved-- at least not
while practicing actual science.
> Computers are going faster every 2 years.
Ah, but they are still as dumb as a box of
rocks! Take "Eliza", for instance; I read that
this artificial intelligence program made very
interesting conversations and went to check
it out; all I discovered is that some folks
around here (rgc) are "easily entertained", if
you know what I mean.
In chess, we see that the world's strongest
engine loses like a carrot to GM Dzindzi., and
then learn that its programmer did not deem it
necessary to put much effort into crafting its
endgame... very much like a typical duffer!
Even in the post-mortem of the game in which
Rybka trapped its own Bishop behind a wall of
its own pawns, the same dullards were easily
tricked into believing that this was "inevitable",
as RD put it; even the very best, it would seem,
are not particularly bright.
> Do you really see till 20 depth?
No. However, I can sometimes find the same
move as an engine which looks, say, twice that
deep, using /strategic understanding/.
> > > So Now, Normal plays like the Master Level
> > > Master plays like Advance Level
> > > And Advance will play much strong game giving you no chance to win.
Nonsense; I can always pull the power plug!
; >D
> > Confess: you are conducting research in
> > psychology; you want to see how folks will
> > respond to various crazy comments, repeated
> > over and over again.
> Actually when you had problem in your eyes you used to play very weak
> games and I fould you lost many games to even beginner Level. But now
> your Chess has improved a lot.
True, but I am nowhere near the player I used
to be, back when I was a much younger bot. I
now have trouble recalling "book" moves that I
used to know, and the chess clock has become
more enemy than ally. I recall one fairly recent
game in which I overlooked a simple mating net,
requiring a bit of "help" from my opponent to win.
> > But thechessengine's very real improvement
> > does not quite fit in; how do you explain this?
> > It seems to me that the program should
> > actually get weaker and weaker, while you
> > simultaneously claim it is improving; that's
> > how I would have done it, anyway. ;>D
> I do not really understand what you are saying here. My english not so
> good So I do not understand what you mean. Why should GetClub play
> weaker? I think after improving it should play better.
I was commenting on your "boy who cried wolf"
experiment; the one where you provoke varied
responses here in rgc to the never-ending claims
of dramatic improvements-- improvements which
never end and which are invariably followed by
further defeats, followed by claims of near-
invincibility, followed by further defeats, etc.
It was an attempt to make some sense of it
all, by "injecting" some random purpose. My
idea would be to make the program weaker and
weaker, while simultaneously posting claims
here in rgc that it is "improving"; it is the same
as what you have done, only /better/!
-- help bot
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Date: 02 Jun 2008 02:26:09
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: Zebediah took 47 moves to win Advance Level.
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On Jun 2, 11:43=A0am, help bot <[email protected] > wrote:
> On Jun 2, 1:52 am, Sanny <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Yeaterday the game was improved So It would play twice stronger moves
> > now.
>
> =A0 Excellent. =A0I, too, have improved 100% overnight.
> =A0;>D
Human beings IQ drops with Old age and never increases and brain cells
start dieing as we age. Computers are going faster every 2 years.
> > So next time you can play with Master Level and even Master Level will
> > play as good as the Advance Level. So you could end the game quickly.
>
> > Remember: Advance Level now sees 20 depth deep.
>
> =A0 Now, that's more like it. =A0I like a program which
> can see nearly as deep as I can.
Do you really see till 20 depth?
> > So Now, Normal plays like the Master Level
> > Master plays like Advance Level
> > And Advance will play much strong game giving you no chance to win.
>
> =A0 Confess: you are conducting research in
> psychology; you want to see how folks will
> respond to various crazy comments, repeated
> over and over again.
Actually when you had problem in your eyes you used to play very weak
games and I fould you lost many games to even beginner Level. But now
your Chess has improved a lot.
> =A0 But thechessengine's very real improvement
> does not quite fit in; how do you explain this?
> It seems to me that the program should
> actually get weaker and weaker, while you
> simultaneously claim it is improving; that's
> how I would have done it, anyway. =A0;>D
I do not really understand what you are saying here. My english not so
good So I do not understand what you mean. Why should GetClub play
weaker? I think after improving it should play better.
Bye
Sanny
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
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Date: 01 Jun 2008 23:43:42
From: help bot
Subject: Re: Zebediah took 47 moves to win Advance Level.
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On Jun 2, 1:52 am, Sanny <[email protected] > wrote:
> Yeaterday the game was improved So It would play twice stronger moves
> now.
Excellent. I, too, have improved 100% overnight.
; >D
> So next time you can play with Master Level and even Master Level will
> play as good as the Advance Level. So you could end the game quickly.
>
> Remember: Advance Level now sees 20 depth deep.
Now, that's more like it. I like a program which
can see nearly as deep as I can.
> And Master Level sees
> 18 depth deep which was earlier possible only be the Advance Level.
>
> So Now, Normal plays like the Master Level
> Master plays like Advance Level
> And Advance will play much strong game giving you no chance to win.
Confess: you are conducting research in
psychology; you want to see how folks will
respond to various crazy comments, repeated
over and over again.
Many people tend to get mean and nasty,
calling you a troll or blasting you for "wasting
bandwidth", etc. A few will try to "help" you,
which of course has no effect-- all according to
the test's carefully laid out plan.
But the chess engine's very real improvement
does not quite fit in; how do you explain this?
It seems to me that the program should
actually get weaker and weaker, while you
simultaneously claim it is improving; that's
how I would have done it, anyway. ; >D
-- help bot
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Date: 01 Jun 2008 22:52:39
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: Zebediah took 47 moves to win Advance Level.
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Yeaterday the game was improved So It would play twice stronger moves
now.
So next time you can play with Master Level and even Master Level will
play as good as the Advance Level. So you could end the game quickly.
Remember: Advance Level now sees 20 depth deep. And Master Level sees
18 depth deep which was earlier possible only be the Advance Level.
So Now, Normal plays like the Master Level
Master plays like Advance Level
And Advance will play much strong game giving you no chance to win.
Bye
Sanny
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
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Date: 01 Jun 2008 22:32:46
From: help bot
Subject: Re: Zebediah took 47 moves to win Advance Level.
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On Jun 1, 6:41 am, Sanny <[email protected] > wrote:
> Yes, Taylor Kingston told me that when the GetClub game was in early
> stage. Initially Taylor Kinston also helped a lot in developing
> GetClub. Those days It used to take 1 hour / move. Now it plays the
> same moves in just 1 min.
In many cases, Mr. Kingston's "analysis" shows
him to have set up the *wrong position*, so I am a
bit puzzled as to how he managed such a feat;
dumb luck, I suppose.
> How are you facing the Advance Level. Do you think you can win the
> game against the Advance Level.
I started a game against the Advance level, since
that is what you wanted, but have made little progress
as I have been busy. Tonight the Web site has not
been working right, and I have not been able to
continue the game.
As I recall, I have Black and the position is now
unbalanced, though I lay no claim to holding any
advantage; we're still in the opening stage. When
I have Black, it is tough for me to try and gain any
significant advantage without taking considerable
risks. I had one game with Rob Mitchell on the
ChessWorld Web site in which I felt "busted", or
what might be described as "loosey-goosey", as
I attempted to unbalance the position in a Dutch
Defense. Whatever the weaknesses were that I
had created, they were not exploited by RM in
that game as he made decisive tactical errors.
-- help bot
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Date: 01 Jun 2008 03:41:38
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: Zebediah took 47 moves to win Advance Level.
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> =A0 I did not know that. =A0Generally speaking, I have
> had no trouble trading pieces when I was winning,
> so this is a bit surprising.
>
> =A0 In any case, getting the basic tactics right is far
> more important than implementing such general
> rules, insofar as results go.
Yes, Taylor Kingston told me that when the GetClub game was in early
stage. Initially Taylor Kinston also helped a lot in developing
GetClub. Those days It used to take 1 hour / move. Now it plays the
same moves in just 1 min.
How are you facing the Advance Level. Do you think you can win the
game against the Advance Level.
Today again the game was improved So it will play much better moves.
Bye
Sanny
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
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Date: 31 May 2008 19:28:22
From: help bot
Subject: Re: Zebediah took 47 moves to win Advance Level.
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On May 31, 12:29 am, Sanny <[email protected] > wrote:
> > 3) White's insistence on trading queens (13.Qd3 and 15.Qd6+) make me
> > believe that White is following the rule "trade down when you're ahead
> > material" too literally, as it allowed Black's Knight to start
> > attacking and generally disrupting White's plans.
>
> Yes it gives advantage to exchanges when winning.
I did not know that. Generally speaking, I have
had no trouble trading pieces when I was winning,
so this is a bit surprising.
In any case, getting the basic tactics right is far
more important than implementing such general
rules, insofar as results go.
-- help bot
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Date: 30 May 2008 21:29:24
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: Zebediah took 47 moves to win Advance Level.
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> 1) 22.Rd5 is a terrible blunder, as it allows the forking of the rooks
> with 22...Bb7. Perhaps your engine does not see that the Rook on d5 is
> skewered to the Rook on f3? The game is definitely over after this
Actually the Pin of two rooks could be saved by moving the Rook to pin
the Bishop. It was the Knight move that forkedthe two rooks that
killed the game. Lokks like Advance level overlooked that.
> 3) White's insistence on trading queens (13.Qd3 and 15.Qd6+) make me
> believe that White is following the rule "trade down when you're ahead
> material" too literally, as it allowed Black's Knight to start
> attacking and generally disrupting White's plans.
Yes it gives advantage to exchanges when winning.
> 4) There was at least one instance in which Advanced did not find
> optimal moves when it was about to be checkmated. The last move of the
> game, Kc4, allows it to be mated in two moves, rather than the optimal
> Ka4 or Rc3, both of which require mate in four moves.
When it sees Mate It make any moved Randomly as all are having same
loss.
Bye
Sanny
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
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Date: 30 May 2008 21:18:45
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: Zebediah took 47 moves to win Advance Level.
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On May 31, 12:33=A0am, [email protected] wrote:
> On May 30, 1:12=A0am, Sanny <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Today a 20% improvement was done as a few lines of codes were not
> > needed So they have been deleted and the game will play 20% better
> > moves.
>
> > Bye
> > Sanny
>
> > PlayChessat:http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
>
> Uh, you're going to have to clarify that. How can removing "a few
> lines of code" improve play 20%?
>
> Is your engine now 20% faster? That's great, but by typical theory it
> will only give you an increase of 10-15 ELO points at most, all else
> being equal.
>
> What does "20% better moves" mean? Is your engine scoring 20% better
> on test suites? That would be about the only way I would accept that
> statement (and there would still be lots of questions).
>
> jm
When I say 20% better it means now it takes 20% less time to search a
depth of moves. Say It takes 10 seconds earloer to see upto depth 12.
Now it will take just 80% time to search that much depth.
Its that simple. I always know how much time it takes to reach a depth
and when improvement is done I just measure how much less time it is
taking to reach the same depth.
And to test the improvements I play a few games against Rybka and find
how many extra moves needed for Rybka to win the game.
3 months back Rybka used totake 20-25 Moves to win Easy Level.
1 month Nack Rybka used to take 30 moves to win easy Level.
Now after lots of improvements I see Rybka takes 35 moves to win the
Easy Level. This is another way to know if the program is working well
or not.
Bye
Sanny
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
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Date: 30 May 2008 13:29:17
From:
Subject: Re: Zebediah took 47 moves to win Advance Level.
|
On May 29, 10:39=A0pm, Sanny <[email protected] > wrote:
> Zebediah used to win the Advance level in 30 moves earlier. But as the
> game was improved by Help Bot Suggestions, I find that last 2 games
> Zebediiah is taking more than 40 moves to win the game.
>
> And in todays game he needed 47 moves to win. So a clear sight of
> improvement for GetClub Chess is seen.
>
> Zebediah use some very strong computer to beat the Advance Level.
> Advance level thinks for 30 min / move So it thinks atleast 18 depth
> ahead.
>
> Do you think there is any scope of further improvement in GetClubs
> game.
>
> Because of your suggestions GetClub is playing like a beast. But still
> it need more strength to win against Zebediah a big Chess cruncher.
>
> Game Played between zebediah and advance at GetClub.com
>
> =A0zebediah: (Black)
> advance: (White)
> Game Played at:http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
> View Recorded Game:http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?id=3DDM20344&game=
=3DChess
>
> What do you think should be improved in GetClub Chess? Is it loosing
> because of strategical mistake or the depth of calculations?
>
> How much more deep it should see in 30 min / move.
>
> How much deep can a Strong Chess Player see? Zebediah is a great
> Challenge for GetClub Chess.
>
> Bye
> Sanny
>
> Play Chess at:http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
There are several problems with this game.
1) 22.Rd5 is a terrible blunder, as it allows the forking of the rooks
with 22...Bb7. Perhaps your engine does not see that the Rook on d5 is
skewered to the Rook on f3? The game is definitely over after this
move. You may say that it took 47 moves for Black to win, but it
really took White only 22 moves (at most) to lose.
2) 10.Bxc5 is not a good move. It is way too materialistic and is
probably the move that started the downward spiral. After 12.Kx48,
White may be up one point in material, but Black has excellent
compensation. After this move, The King (CM9_R1 personality) shows
Black with a very small advantage at this point.
3) White's insistence on trading queens (13.Qd3 and 15.Qd6+) make me
believe that White is following the rule "trade down when you're ahead
material" too literally, as it allowed Black's Knight to start
attacking and generally disrupting White's plans.
4) There was at least one instance in which Advanced did not find
optimal moves when it was about to be checkmated. The last move of the
game, Kc4, allows it to be mated in two moves, rather than the optimal
Ka4 or Rc3, both of which require mate in four moves.
jm
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Date: 30 May 2008 12:33:17
From:
Subject: Re: Zebediah took 47 moves to win Advance Level.
|
On May 30, 1:12=A0am, Sanny <[email protected] > wrote:
> Today a 20% improvement was done as a few lines of codes were not
> needed So they have been deleted and the game will play 20% better
> moves.
>
> Bye
> Sanny
>
> Play Chess at:http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
Uh, you're going to have to clarify that. How can removing "a few
lines of code" improve play 20%?
Is your engine now 20% faster? That's great, but by typical theory it
will only give you an increase of 10-15 ELO points at most, all else
being equal.
What does "20% better moves" mean? Is your engine scoring 20% better
on test suites? That would be about the only way I would accept that
statement (and there would still be lots of questions).
jm
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Date: 30 May 2008 01:12:07
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: Zebediah took 47 moves to win Advance Level.
|
Today a 20% improvement was done as a few lines of codes were not
needed So they have been deleted and the game will play 20% better
moves.
Bye
Sanny
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
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