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Date: 10 May 2008 05:26:12
From: The Calaf
Subject: Why is Chessmaster XI still crap?
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I shelled out the $20 for Chessmaster XI and found, just as I
suspected I would, that the computer opponents still only take a
nanosecond per move in rated play, thereby ruining the simulation of
playing a real person.
A real person would ordinarily take a nanosecond for one move, 20
seconds for another, and perhaps two or three when stumped. You'd get
the chance to evaluate the position the entire time.
A real person would also ask for a draw or possibly resign. None of
the players do this.
So how does a game make that much money if its most important
particular, gameplay, is fatally flawed?
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Date: 12 May 2008 11:10:55
From:
Subject: Re: Why is Chessmaster XI still crap?
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On May 10, 3:26=A0am, The Calaf <[email protected] > wrote:
> I shelled out the $20 for Chessmaster XI and found, just as I
> suspected I would, that the computer opponents still only take a
> nanosecond per move in rated play, thereby ruining the simulation of
> playing a real person. =A0
>
> A real person would ordinarily take a nanosecond for one move, 20
> seconds for another, and perhaps two or three when stumped. =A0You'd get
> the chance to evaluate the position the entire time. =A0
>
> A real person would also ask for a draw or possibly resign. =A0None of
> the players do this.
>
> So how does a game make that much money if its most important
> particular, gameplay, is fatally flawed?
In my opinion, these are very minor problems compared to the more
annoying issues of:
1) The Mentor Lines window regularly drawing poorly (with one-half a
line below the bottom of the window) and getting stuck if you take
back a move when analyzing a game. The drawing problem is also present
in the Thinking Lines window.
2) How long you have to wait when launching the program before you can
actually start playing a simple game of chess. I have a fast machine,
and it takes three mouse clicks (once the app starts up) and 45-60
seconds before you can make a move. Chessmaster 9000 (my favorite
version) takes less than 10 seconds.
3) The new tutorials are very badly scripted. There are many cases in
which Josh Waitzkin asks you "what would you play here", and then the
program won't let you make a move, but instead goes straight on to
Josh's explanation of the best move. True, there were many MINOR
tutorial errors in CM9000, but none that were this obviously bad such
that they actually reduce the quality and usefulness of the content.
4) I appreciate the ability for the new engine to use multiple CPUs or
cores, but if I enable that setting (thankfully, it's off by default)
there are many times in which the program (and my entire computer)
will completely hang for 10-15 seconds before becoming responsive
again.
The new content from IM Josh Waitzkin and GM Larry Christiansen is
excellent, and is probably worth the price of admission by itself. But
if I want to analyze a game or just play chess, I use CM9000. Once I'm
done with the new content, I'll never launch CM GM again (just like I
did with CM 10th Edition).
jm
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Date:
From: Martin Brown
Subject: Re: Why is Chessmaster XI still crap?
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Date: 10 May 2008 15:56:16
From: Morten Skarstad
Subject: Re: Why is Chessmaster XI still crap?
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The Calaf skrev:
> I shelled out the $20 for Chessmaster XI and found, just as I
> suspected I would, that the computer opponents still only take a
> nanosecond per move in rated play, thereby ruining the simulation of
> playing a real person.
Only most of the easiest opponents in CM does this. This is because
their strength has been limited using low search depth, so the computer
does not need a lot of time to go through their evaluations.
If this bothers you, and you only want easy opponents, you are free to
create your own personalities and use other means of limiting their
strength but still give them the depth required for them to take a lot
of time. Alternatively, use a slow computer :o)
> A real person would ordinarily take a nanosecond for one move, 20
> seconds for another, and perhaps two or three when stumped. You'd get
> the chance to evaluate the position the entire time.
Have you ever played against kids? I have seen some talented but
undeveloped kids play in "grown up" tournaments, and they often tend to
move immediately when it's their turn, and then look visibly bored and
impatient when their older opponent is pondering his countermove. I have
seen them spend less than five minutes in total in full tournament games.
> A real person would also ask for a draw or possibly resign. None of
> the players do this.
You are free to offer draws, though. And if a game really is that
resignable, then it is usually over soon anyway.
> So how does a game make that much money if its most important
> particular, gameplay, is fatally flawed?
I don't really think the above issues make a chess game "fatally
flawed", but that's just my oponion.
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Date: 10 May 2008 04:48:54
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: Why is Chessmaster XI still crap?
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Great you have ChessMaster. Play a few games with GetClub Chess and
tell me whats the difference in the game between ChessMaster and
GetClub.
You can have a Match between ChessMaster and GetClub and then post the
result here.
Play Chess at GetClub: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
GetClub has 5 Levels to play with
1. Beginner 8-10 sec / move
2. Easy 30 sec/ move
3. Normal 1-2 min / move
4. Master - 5-10 min / move
5. Advance - 30 min/ move
Play a few games and tell me which one plays stronger. Many people
here say ChessMaster is very Strong Lets see how it fairs with
Different Levels at GetClub.
Remember to Post your game so that we can see who win.
Bye
Sanny
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
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Date: 13 May 2008 11:13:13
From:
Subject: Re: Why is Chessmaster XI still crap?
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On May 12, 10:26=A0pm, Sanny <[email protected] > wrote:
> On May 13, 12:06=A0am, [email protected] wrote:
>
> > Wait, does that REALLY say 30 minutes PER MOVE?? No wonder nobody
> > plays the higher levels on your site. You do realize that standard
> > tournament time controls are approximately 2 minutes per move, right?
>
> > Nobody is going to test your program against another program if they
> > have to wait around 5-30 minutes for each move. Until you can get your
> > engine to play at least at Master level in 2 minutes per move, you
> > don't have anything worth selling.
>
> > jm
>
> There are three levels which play in less than 2 min / move They are
>
> 1. Beginner 8-10 sec / move
> 2. Easy 30 sec/ move
> 3. Normal 1-2 min / move
>
> For Playes rated less than 1900 above levels will chew them like a
> nut.
>
> There are 3 extra strong players with 2400+ rating they sometimes play
> with Advance & Master Level and they win the game as they play very
> strong games.
>
> Bye
> Sanny
Yes, I understand that there are three easier levels. But you're not
going to sell any engine, no matter how strong it is, if the only way
it can beat a master is if it takes at least 5 minutes for it to move.
As I said above, when it can draw an IM or GM with no more than ONE
minute per move, then you might have something. But, keep in mind that
there are already dozens of FREE programs out there that can do that
now.
For reference, Chessmaster 8000 (that's three versions and almost 7
years ago) drew the Cuban National Champion at that time, Julio
Becerra, twice in a row with only one SECOND per move (and the human
could take as long as he wanted to move). Becerra is one of the best
blitz players on ICC.
You can see how strong GM Becerra is here:
http://www.uschessleague.com/JulioBecerra.html
Obviously, your program can't do that (yet!).
jm
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Date: 12 May 2008 22:26:12
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: Why is Chessmaster XI still crap?
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On May 13, 12:06=A0am, [email protected] wrote:
> On May 10, 4:48=A0am, Sanny <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >GetClubhas 5 Levels to play with
>
> > 1. Beginner 8-10 sec / move
> > 2. Easy 30 sec/ move
> > 3. Normal 1-2 min / move
> > 4. Master - 5-10 min / move
> > 5. Advance - 30 min/ move
>
> > Play a few games and tell me which one plays stronger. Many people
> > here say ChessMaster is very Strong Lets see how it fairs with
> > Different Levels atGetClub.
>
> Wait, does that REALLY say 30 minutes PER MOVE?? No wonder nobody
> plays the higher levels on your site. You do realize that standard
> tournament time controls are approximately 2 minutes per move, right?
>
> Nobody is going to test your program against another program if they
> have to wait around 5-30 minutes for each move. Until you can get your
> engine to play at least at Master level in 2 minutes per move, you
> don't have anything worth selling.
>
> jm
There are three levels which play in less than 2 min / move They are
1. Beginner 8-10 sec / move
2. Easy 30 sec/ move
3. Normal 1-2 min / move
For Playes rated less than 1900 above levels will chew them like a
nut.
There are 3 extra strong players with 2400+ rating they sometimes play
with Advance & Master Level and they win the game as they play very
strong games.
Bye
Sanny
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
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Date: 12 May 2008 12:06:11
From:
Subject: Re: Why is Chessmaster XI still crap?
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On May 10, 4:48=A0am, Sanny <[email protected] > wrote:
> GetClub has 5 Levels to play with
>
> 1. Beginner 8-10 sec / move
> 2. Easy 30 sec/ move
> 3. Normal 1-2 min / move
> 4. Master - 5-10 min / move
> 5. Advance - 30 min/ move
>
> Play a few games and tell me which one plays stronger. Many people
> here say ChessMaster is very Strong Lets see how it fairs with
> Different Levels at GetClub.
Wait, does that REALLY say 30 minutes PER MOVE?? No wonder nobody
plays the higher levels on your site. You do realize that standard
tournament time controls are approximately 2 minutes per move, right?
Nobody is going to test your program against another program if they
have to wait around 5-30 minutes for each move. Until you can get your
engine to play at least at Master level in 2 minutes per move, you
don't have anything worth selling.
jm
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