Why are you Winning at GetClub Chess.

Main

Date: 08 Sep 2007 22:18:56
From: Sanny
Subject: Why are you Winning at GetClub Chess.

I was thinking the GetClub Chess will win a lot of games now, But I am
seeing that the results are not comming as predicted.

Chess Played at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

Yesterday "Stinky Garlnoot" and "apple3feet" beat Master and Normal
Levels.

See Recorded Games: http://www.getclub.com/cc/showgame.php?num=10

As per my analysis the games played were Ok. But the result was
computer lost.

Winners Go through the Recorded Games and tell me what mistake the
GetClub Chess is doing. Why it is loosing to strong players?

What weakness are you seeing in the Games played at GetClub Chess. Why
it is unable to beat the strong players? Is there any strategy mistake
or it is still making tactical mistake.

GetClub Chess thinks 8-10 depth (half move) deeper. Still it lose in
games with strong players. Are Strong players using Fritz8 or other
computer to play games at GetClub or they are finding the Getclub game
very weak.

So tell me the weaknesses you find in GetClub Chess so that I may
remove them.

Please tell, what should be improved in GetClub Chess

1. Depth of Moves
2. Game Strategy
3. Tactical Calculations
4. or Any other thing

See Recorded Games: http://www.getclub.com/cc/showgame.php?num=10

I want to see GetClub Chess beat all the Players playing it, and not
only the weak players like me and my friends but also the strong
players like "Nomorechess", "Zebediah", "Stinky Garlnoot" and
"apple3feet" and "Taylor Kingston" .

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

Date: 14 Sep 2007 08:57:30
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: Why are you Winning at GetClub Chess.

> Or does the program ever do what Sanny says the program does, ever?
>
> Here it continues to cheat time controls as 'my enemy' Ken Sloan says. Can
> Sanny work on that and tell us only if it/he doesn't cheat anymore,
> otherwise it/he is a constant liar. And we/we seem to universaly think
> so-so!
>
> Would Sanny agree that if he tells another lie in public about his engine,
> and everyone thinks its a lie, that he is actually lying; should post no
> more here, award no more awards; claim master levels for his 1300 engine, et
> cetera?
>
>
There is nothing lie that can be told. All games are recorded. And
arround 1000 Games are recorded. I do not know where the Term CHEAT
comes from. Why will computer cheat. Yes, It always give equal pieces
to both players.

It allows you to play all legal moves then from where the Question of
Cheating comes in.

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

1000 games has been played at GetClub Chess. So I do not understand
what Kenneth Sloan is talking about. If I am wroing play a game and
look for yourself how it plays. It never cheats.

Beginner Level Plays in 10-20 seconds Sometimes very rarely it takes
more that 30 seconds.
Easy Level Plays in 30- 60 seconds Very rarely it takes more than 2
min
Normal Level plays in 2-3 min Very rarely it takes more that 4
minutes.

Yes Master Level takes lot of time 5-10 min. But I feel Beginner &
Easy are sufficient for most players.

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

Date: 14 Sep 2007 00:53:01
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: Why are you Winning at GetClub Chess.

> I played a few games yesterday at the easy levels
> and thought there was something odd going on; all of
> a sudden, the program was "booked up" in the openings
> and although it played good moves much of the time it
> would inevitably overlook an obvious tactical threat; in
> sum, it was like playing a decent human opponent.

Today GetClub Chess played very good moves and Draw game With one of
the Worlds best Chess Program Jester.

Below is the Game Played at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

Jester: White
GetClub Black (Beginner Level)

Recorded Game: http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?id=DM9355&game=Chess

1.e2-e4 e7-e5
2.Nb1-c3 Ng8-f6
3.g2-g3 Nb8-c6
4.Ng1-f3 Bf8-b4
5.Bf1-b5 Bb4xc3
6.d2xc3 Ke8-g8
7.Bc1-g5 h7-h6
8.Bg5xf6 Qd8xf6
9.Ke1-g1 Nc6-d8
10.h2-h4 c7-c5
11.Bb5-e2 Nd8-c6
12.Qd1-d5 d7-d6
13.Rf1-d1 Rf8-d8
14.Qd5-d3 Bc8-h3
15.Qd3-e3 Ra8-b8
16.a2-a3 Bh3-e6
17.Rd1-d2 Be6-h3
18.Rd2-d1 Bh3-e6
19.Rd1-d2 -------------

Game Draw.!!! with Black Pieces.

Recorded Game: http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?id=DM9355&game=Chess

So It gives me relief the Program is now playing very good moves.

Yesterday I said of shutting my Program if it do not improve in 4
days. And today it satisfied me so now I can continue with GetClub
Chess Game without shutting it forever.

Its after long hard work the sucess came. And I am very happy about
it.

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

Date: 13 Sep 2007 16:15:24
From: help bot
Subject: Re: Why are you Winning at GetClub Chess.

On Sep 13, 4:37 pm, Kenneth Sloan <[email protected] > wrote:
> Sanny wrote:

> > Yes you are correct, I think it will take 3-4 days more to produce a
> > stable program. This game is taking a lot of time and resources. If it
> > do not work well in a week I think We will have to shut this game
> > forever.
>
> I think a more sensible estimate would be 3-4 decades.
>
> At least, you are consistent here. days -> decades is about the same
> multiplicative factor that you use when measuring the time alloted for
> each move.

It's probably a coded message. During a state of war,
"no uncoded messages on an open channel", as they
said in Star Trek's the Wrath of Khan.

When Sanny writes that his program has once again
been "improved", that may be code for "new bugs are
introduced to replace the old". (Well, who wants the
same old bugs all the time anyway? It's good to have
a variety of different bugs; variety is the spice of life.)

On the weakest levels, the speed of play is much,
much more reasonable than before, but there are way
too many disconnects during play.

-- help bot

Date: 13 Sep 2007 09:13:52
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: Why are you Winning at GetClub Chess.

> > So all improvements were removed and old Game which atleast make
> > sensible moves was restored.
>
> Sheesh! A sensible move would have been to test the software before releasing
> shut a shitty patch.
>

Yes you are correct, I think it will take 3-4 days more to produce a
stable program. This game is taking a lot of time and resources. If it
do not work well in a week I think We will have to shut this game
forever.

Bye
Sanny

Date: 13 Sep 2007 16:37:32
From: Kenneth Sloan
Subject: Re: Why are you Winning at GetClub Chess.

Sanny wrote:
>>> So all improvements were removed and old Game which atleast make
>>> sensible moves was restored.
>> Sheesh! A sensible move would have been to test the software before releasing
>> shut a shitty patch.
>>
>
> Yes you are correct, I think it will take 3-4 days more to produce a
> stable program. This game is taking a lot of time and resources. If it
> do not work well in a week I think We will have to shut this game
> forever.
>

I think a more sensible estimate would be 3-4 decades.

At least, you are consistent here. days - > decades is about the same
multiplicative factor that you use when measuring the time alloted for
each move.

--
Kenneth Sloan [email protected]
Computer and Information Sciences +1-205-932-2213
University of Alabama at Birmingham FAX +1-205-934-5473
Birmingham, AL 35294-1170 http://www.cis.uab.edu/sloan/

Date: 13 Sep 2007 17:25:46
From: Thomas T. Veldhouse
Subject: Re: Why are you Winning at GetClub Chess.

In rec.games.chess.computer Sanny <[email protected] > wrote:
>> > So all improvements were removed and old Game which atleast make
>> > sensible moves was restored.
>>
>> Sheesh! A sensible move would have been to test the software before releasing
>> shut a shitty patch.
>>
>
> Yes you are correct, I think it will take 3-4 days more to produce a
> stable program. This game is taking a lot of time and resources. If it
> do not work well in a week I think We will have to shut this game
> forever.
>

That sounds familiar. Are you paying these guys to write this code? Or is it
just you? If the former, then perhaps pulling in somebody technical with a
little QA knowledge will save your game. If the latter, well, I hope you can
do a little self study ... is it all in Java? If so, try JUnit. Put some
hooks in to the engine [in debug mode] that you can throw a position at it and
expect certain output from various functions.

I can't be of more help than that ... I have never written a chess engine and
my background is largely C++ and C#.NET.

--
Thomas T. Veldhouse

We have more to fear from the bungling of the incompetent than from the
machinations of the wicked.

Date: 13 Sep 2007 09:13:36
From: help bot
Subject: Re: Why are you Winning at GetClub Chess.

On Sep 13, 10:45 am, Sanny <[email protected] > wrote:

> Yesterday a few improvement patches were added to the game, But I
> think it made it feel play so bad that it started giving out pieces
> for no reasion.
>
> So all improvements were removed and old Game which atleast make
> sensible moves was restored.

I played a few games yesterday at the easy levels
and thought there was something odd going on; all of
a sudden, the program was "booked up" in the openings
and although it played good moves much of the time it
would inevitably overlook an obvious tactical threat; in
sum, it was like playing a decent human opponent.

My guess is that both Sanny and his meanest
critics are off base regarding the program's actual
playing strength. No, it is not Class B, Class B,
Class A, Expert and so forth, but neither is it Class E,
Class E, Class E, and Class D. You have to focus on
the sad fact that no matter how poorly it may play the
openings, and no matter how many times it fails to
avoid a mate-in-two on itself, it still is dangerous at
times.

Ralph Callenberg suggested that Sanny's numbers
were exaggerated by 750 to 1000 points, but this is
utter nonsense; take 1000 points off of Sanny's
estimate of 2000 for Master level and you get 1000--
I would love to bet money on Sanny's ML against a
room full of such players, at $100 per board. Make
that a very LARGE room full! IMO, the Master level
would mow them down like a row of carrots (no wait,
carrots grow underground).

I think Sanny's numbers are too close together;
they do not give his program much credit for taking
double, triple, or even ten times more time to think.
Perhaps he should put his Beginner level somewhat
lower, but his top levels are not so bad, weighing
tactics at 90% or so and the worst aspects much
less. I'm talking about results here, not the artistic
aspects... LOL.

-- help bot

Date: 13 Sep 2007 08:47:20
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: Why are you Winning at GetClub Chess.

> I think my browser must be malfunctioning...
>
> And my operating system...
>
> And my monitor...
>
> No way can I be seeing those words; no way, no how.

Yesterday a few improvement patches were added to the game, But I
think it made it play so bad that it started giving out pieces for no
reasion.

So all improvements were removed and old Game which was atleast make
sensible moves was restored.

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

Date: 13 Sep 2007 08:45:39
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: Why are you Winning at GetClub Chess.

On Sep 13, 6:45 pm, "Thomas T. Veldhouse" <[email protected] > wrote:
> In rec.games.chess.computerChessOne <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
> > I agree with Ken Sloan that the program cheats non-stop and Sammy cannot
> > possibly be as nutz@ as he pretends, or can he? Who is Sanny? And what is
> > this ludicrous consulting company that rests on the cheatingchessengine as
> > keting device?
>
Yesterday a few improvement patches were added to the game, But I
think it made it feel play so bad that it started giving out pieces
for no reasion.

So all improvements were removed and old Game which atleast make
sensible moves was restored.

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

Date: 13 Sep 2007 15:58:19
From: Thomas T. Veldhouse
Subject: Re: Why are you Winning at GetClub Chess.

In rec.games.chess.computer Sanny <[email protected] > wrote:
> Yesterday a few improvement patches were added to the game, But I
> think it made it feel play so bad that it started giving out pieces
> for no reasion.
>
> So all improvements were removed and old Game which atleast make
> sensible moves was restored.
>

Sheesh! A sensible move would have been to test the software before releasing
shut a shitty patch.

--
Thomas T. Veldhouse

We have more to fear from the bungling of the incompetent than from the
machinations of the wicked.

Date: 12 Sep 2007 23:10:09
From: Ralf Callenberg
Subject: Re: Why are you Winning at GetClub Chess.

[x-posting reduced]
On Sep 12, 6:01 pm, Sanny <[email protected] > wrote:

> Beginner Level: 1700
> Easy Level: 1800
> Normal Level: 1900
> Master Level: 2000

Those numbers are exaggerated by roughly 750 to 1000 points. A 1500
player wipes the floor with your program. Sanny, just to give you an
idea of how bad your program is: today it got beaten on easy level by
my mobile phone - not some fancy st phone, no an ordinary three
years old Siemens S65. Chessmaster was running as a Java ME
application on it, which I downloaded for 3 Euro. Your program on the
other hand was running inside a Java 6 JVM on a Pentium IV, 3 GHz, 2
GB RAM. Your program was, is and will ever be a joke, some of the
worst pieces of software I ever concountered, written by a severely
limited software developer who has not the slightest idea about chess.
Your "improvements" and fixes don't change anything. You simply don't
have a clue. My advice: give it up, it's a waste of time.

Ralf

Date: 12 Sep 2007 15:52:31
From: help bot
Subject: Re: Why are you Winning at GetClub Chess.

On Sep 12, 12:01 pm, Sanny <[email protected] > wrote:

> More than 1000 games have been played at GetClub without any problem

Huh?

I think my browser must be malfunctioning...

And my operating system...

And my monitor...

No way can I be seeing those words; no way, no how.

-- help bot

Date: 12 Sep 2007 10:01:29
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: Why are you Winning at GetClub Chess.

> > May be he pressed "Resign Now" Button by Mistake.
>
> That doesn't make sense, Sanny. If I remember correctly, in the
> final position of this game, it is White's move, i.e. your program's
> move. (I can't verify that today because the replay function does not
> seem to be working.) The "resign now" button is available to a player
> only when it is his move. Therefore Black could not have resigned this
> game, either intentionally or accidentally.

Yes you are correct the last move was of black Bishop by "Stinky
Garlnoot".

I think there may be some other reasion for that. If such thing
happens again. I could see why it happened.

More than 1000 games have been played at GetClub without any problem,
then why it happened in this game is very difficult to say.

The game plays same way on each computer, And same program is loaded
on each computer. So its difficult to understand why it happen in that
game.

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

Date: 12 Sep 2007 09:50:03
From: Taylor Kingston
Subject: Re: Why are you Winning at GetClub Chess.

On Sep 12, 11:02 am, Sanny <[email protected] > wrote:
> > But the games do not seem to be recorded accurately, Sanny. Check,
> > for example, the last game by "Stinky Garlnoot." In the final position
> > shown, your program, playing White, is clearly busted, being down a
> > piece with no compensation, yet the game is recorded as a win for
> > White. Looks like your program just decided it didn't want to lose, so
> > it declared itself the winner and stopped the game.
>
> May be he pressed "Resign Now" Button by Mistake.

That doesn't make sense, Sanny. If I remember correctly, in the
final position of this game, it is White's move, i.e. your program's
move. (I can't verify that today because the replay function does not
seem to be working.) The "resign now" button is available to a player
only when it is his move. Therefore Black could not have resigned this
game, either intentionally or accidentally.

Date: 12 Sep 2007 09:49:37
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: Why are you Winning at GetClub Chess.

> So, did you talk with your *team* and suggest what I have indicated? History
> doesn't lend a whole lot of credibility to these ratings above. Perhaps, when
> I get the *time*, I will give it a try, as I am not even rated 1700, so I can
> play against beginner and see how I do.
>
We always test the Product but weak moves are something which is very
difficult to detect. The Big Question is whether the move is correct
or not.

Even Beginner Level plays better than most of us. So it is very
difficult to pin point mistake in the game.

However good players like Nomorechess and Taylor Kingston understand
what moves are wrong.

Now the game has further improved, So I think Higher Levels will give
good challenge to even Strong Players Also.

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.getclub.com/Chess.html

Date: 12 Sep 2007 09:02:28
From: help bot
Subject: Re: Why are you Winning at GetClub Chess.

On Sep 12, 10:02 am, Sanny <[email protected] > wrote:
> > But the games do not seem to be recorded accurately, Sanny. Check,
> > for example, the last game by "Stinky Garlnoot." In the final position
> > shown, your program, playing White, is clearly busted, being down a
> > piece with no compensation, yet the game is recorded as a win for
> > White. Looks like your program just decided it didn't want to lose, so
> > it declared itself the winner and stopped the game.
>
> May be he pressed "Resign Now" Button by Mistake.

Sanny, on other Web sites they make you "confirm"
a resignation in order to avoid any claims to have
clicked a button by mistake. At one, RedHotPawn,
you must confirm and then *reconfirm*, apparently
so they can just laugh at any claims by players
that it was just a slip of the hand. This might be a
bit annoying to those players who resign frequently
(I wouldn't know anything about that, of course).

My experience is that the GetClub Web site is very
buggy. Countless times I have been playing a game
and a new window pops up, displaying my Home Page;
I wonder if someone else on the site has clicked on my
Home page, or if this is just another crazy bug which
happens at random (usually when I make a move).

I suffer frequent disconnects, and have restarted a
single game *dozens of times* before finally finishing
it. Even when you first log on, you are not taken to
the chess area but instead a screen appears, and
just sits there until you click on the link; only THEN
are you able to see the chess area; this is annoying.

I do like your chessboard colors and pieces. In fact,
I tried another Java program (after being prodded
repeatedly here in rgc to do so) and its pieces were
very weird; I didn't like having to analyze on such an
odd-looking board so I just noted how well it played
and never went back. RedHotPawn seems to have
some computer cheats, although I am not certain of
this, but it seems to have players with low ratings
who are nearly invincible, as if they just bought a
chess program and boy do they like how it "helps"
their game! : >D

I am still playing on ChessWorld.net, and have yet
to run into even a single "invincible" 1600 player. I
am guessing that they congregate at or near the top,
where ever that may be (I'm still finishing up a tourney
against newcomers, all started at 1400).

No matter how weak the chess program may be,
people are going to prefer a site which has fewer bugs,
or perhaps, no bugs at all. I see no reason why we
must go through so many steps in order to start a
game; once logged in, it should require but one
click to reach a screen where we can decide to play
rated or unrated, fast or slow, Black or White, and so
forth.

-- help bot

Date: 12 Sep 2007 09:01:02
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: Why are you Winning at GetClub Chess.

> If he doesn't take the suggestion, then perhaps he won't be pestering this
> group much longer, but if he does, perhaps he will put out a better product.

Yes, Test and play a game.

I am sure you will like its move. Here is how they play now.

Beginner Level: 1700
Easy Level: 1800
Normal Level: 1900
Master Level: 2000

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

Date: 12 Sep 2007 08:56:40
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: Why are you Winning at GetClub Chess.

> Nobody said anything about testing all moves. I said make some unit tests
> that can stress various functions in your engine. Then at least, you will
> know those functions are working as expected under certain test conditions.
>

Now most of the Problems has been removed.

Here is how they play now.

Beginner Level: 1700
Easy Level: 1800
Normal Level: 1900
Master Level: 2000

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

Date: 12 Sep 2007 16:35:02
From: Thomas T. Veldhouse
Subject: Re: Why are you Winning at GetClub Chess.

In rec.games.chess.computer Sanny <[email protected] > wrote:
>> Nobody said anything about testing all moves. I said make some unit tests
>> that can stress various functions in your engine. Then at least, you will
>> know those functions are working as expected under certain test conditions.
>>
>
> Now most of the Problems has been removed.
>
> Here is how they play now.
>
> Beginner Level: 1700
> Easy Level: 1800
> Normal Level: 1900
> Master Level: 2000
>
>

So, did you talk with your *team* and suggest what I have indicated? History
doesn't lend a whole lot of credibility to these ratings above. Perhaps, when
I get the *time*, I will give it a try, as I am not even rated 1700, so I can
play against beginner and see how I do.

--
Thomas T. Veldhouse

We have more to fear from the bungling of the incompetent than from the
machinations of the wicked.

Date: 12 Sep 2007 08:34:10
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: Why are you Winning at GetClub Chess.

> > PlayChessat:http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
>
> Not untilGetClubstops cheating.

Can you give me any example of Cheating?

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

Date: 12 Sep 2007 12:42:15
From: Kenneth Sloan
Subject: Re: Why are you Winning at GetClub Chess.

Sanny wrote:
>>> PlayChessat:http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
>> Not untilGetClubstops cheating.
>
> Can you give me any example of Cheating?
>
> Bye
> Sanny
>
> Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
>
>
Failure to observe the time control.

--
Kenneth Sloan [email protected]
Computer and Information Sciences +1-205-932-2213
University of Alabama at Birmingham FAX +1-205-934-5473
Birmingham, AL 35294-1170 http://www.cis.uab.edu/sloan/

Date: 12 Sep 2007 20:01:43
From: Chess One
Subject: Re: Why are you Winning at GetClub Chess.

"Kenneth Sloan" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Sanny wrote:
>>>> PlayChessat:http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
>>> Not untilGetClubstops cheating.
>>
>> Can you give me any example of Cheating?
>>
>> Bye
>> Sanny
>>
>> Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
>>
>>
> Failure to observe the time control.

I never agree with Ken Sloan, as Sam Slaon points out. In fact I seem to
'attack' him with my comments, non-stop and everyday. So, this message has
evidently nothing to do with my liking of him.

I agree with Ken Sloan that the program cheats non-stop and Sammy cannot
possibly be as nutz@ as he pretends, or can he? Who is Sanny? And what is
this ludicrous consulting company that rests on the cheating chess engine as
keting device?

The thing with computer chess programs is that they do exactly what their
programmers tells them to do... and since Sanny spams any group who engages
him, will he instead engage himself, and let others say the program is
'improved' or something? Has anyone ever done that?

Or does the program ever do what Sanny says the program does, ever?

Here it continues to cheat time controls as 'my enemy' Ken Sloan says. Can
Sanny work on that and tell us only if it/he doesn't cheat anymore,
otherwise it/he is a constant liar. And we/we seem to universaly think
so-so!

Would Sanny agree that if he tells another lie in public about his engine,
and everyone thinks its a lie, that he is actually lying; should post no
more here, award no more awards; claim master levels for his 1300 engine, et
cetera?

Will he? Will you Sanny?

Phil Innes

> --
> Kenneth Sloan [email protected]
> Computer and Information Sciences +1-205-932-2213
> University of Alabama at Birmingham FAX +1-205-934-5473
> Birmingham, AL 35294-1170 http://www.cis.uab.edu/sloan/

Date: 13 Sep 2007 13:45:01
From: Thomas T. Veldhouse
Subject: Re: Why are you Winning at GetClub Chess.

In rec.games.chess.computer Chess One <[email protected] > wrote:
>
> I agree with Ken Sloan that the program cheats non-stop and Sammy cannot
> possibly be as nutz@ as he pretends, or can he? Who is Sanny? And what is
> this ludicrous consulting company that rests on the cheating chess engine as
> keting device?
>

Sanny?

I think his whois information probably says it all:

Softtank
Sanjay Sharma ([email protected])
C-33, Chandranagar
Indore
Madhya Pradesh,452008
IN
Tel. +91.1731552674

<snip -- I only felt like answering this portion ;-) >

--
Thomas T. Veldhouse

We have more to fear from the bungling of the incompetent than from the
machinations of the wicked.

Date: 12 Sep 2007 08:02:28
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: Why are you Winning at GetClub Chess.

> But the games do not seem to be recorded accurately, Sanny. Check,
> for example, the last game by "Stinky Garlnoot." In the final position
> shown, your program, playing White, is clearly busted, being down a
> piece with no compensation, yet the game is recorded as a win for
> White. Looks like your program just decided it didn't want to lose, so
> it declared itself the winner and stopped the game.

May be he pressed "Resign Now" Button by Mistake.

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.getclub.com/Chess.html

Date: 12 Sep 2007 07:58:11
From: help bot
Subject: Re: Why are you Winning at GetClub Chess.

On Sep 12, 5:45 am, Sanny <[email protected] > wrote:

> > In short, the way to help him is by mailing him
> > cases of Band-Aids, glue, rubber bands and best
> > of all, duck tape.
>
> One more Patch was found. Now I think it will play much better than
> earlier. And a few bugs were removed I hope that will make it better.

This job calls for a *professional*; call Orkin!

> Play a game and keep giving your valuable suggestions, So that all
> problems are removed.
>
> I feel now you will find the game quite better than earlier if not
> report me the problem. As the games are recorded I can see the
> recorded game.

Last time I played the games were not showing up
afterward (I won every time against the easiest level),
and it kept saying I still had exactly 30 free games left.

In fact, all my previous recent games were rated under
some new identity; obviously, I am not concerned about
"protecting" my 1400 rating by playing under aliases;
this is simply a matter of the difficulty in getting logged
on, rejected passwords, etc. I must admit that I was
careless to not record my old password somewhere,
just assuming I would remember it indefinitely.

-- help bot

Date: 12 Sep 2007 06:40:06
From: Taylor Kingston
Subject: Re: Why are you Winning at GetClub Chess.

On Sep 12, 6:45 am, Sanny <[email protected] > wrote:
>
> I feel now you will find the game quite better than earlier if not
> report me the problem. As the games are recorded I can see the
> recorded game.

But the games do not seem to be recorded accurately, Sanny. Check,
for example, the last game by "Stinky Garlnoot." In the final position
shown, your program, playing White, is clearly busted, being down a
piece with no compensation, yet the game is recorded as a win for
White. Looks like your program just decided it didn't want to lose, so
it declared itself the winner and stopped the game.

Date: 12 Sep 2007 03:45:15
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: Why are you Winning at GetClub Chess.

> In short, the way to help him is by mailing him
> cases of Band-Aids, glue, rubber bands and best
> of all, duck tape.
>

One more Patch was found. Now I think it will play much better than
earlier. And a few bugs were removed I hope that will make it better.

Play a game and keep giving your valuable suggestions, So that all
problems are removed.

I feel now you will find the game quite better than earlier if not
report me the problem. As the games are recorded I can see the
recorded game.

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

Date: 11 Sep 2007 16:23:51
From: help bot
Subject: Re: Why are you Winning at GetClub Chess.

On Sep 11, 10:59 am, "Thomas T. Veldhouse" <[email protected] > wrote:

> Perhaps your team should get a chess player onboard

Maybe Sanny thinks *he is* a chess player?

> and test it before you
> release software. Better yet, build unit tests to test various functions in
> the engine so that you KNOW before you release that your software at least
> does the things you expect it to do under the test conditions. You will get a
> lot less heat from the people in this group if you put a little QC around your
> product.

Functions? Like say, a modular program in which
a move-generator passes a list to the next function,
which screens for legality and then passes off the
revised list (legal moves only) to an analysis function,
and on down the line? I don't think that is how
Sanny's program works.

My guess is that Sanny's program has a bunch
of patched-together code which incorporates a
multitude of Band-Aid style "fixes", and spits out a
move (legal or not) only after going through a series
of contortions and painful exercises, many of which
would "kill" any normal program the same way a
lemming is killed when he jumps off a cliff into the
sea. For Sanny, "testing" is where he goes back
after the game and meekly asks where the program
went wrong, so he can then type in another "fix" in
which the program will play some improvement by
rote from then on whenever it reaches the same
position, in exactly the same move order.

In short, the way to help him is by mailing him
cases of Band-Aids, glue, rubber bands and best
of all, duck tape.

-- hep bot

Date: 12 Sep 2007 13:08:24
From: Thomas T. Veldhouse
Subject: Re: Why are you Winning at GetClub Chess.

In rec.games.chess.computer help bot <[email protected] > wrote:
> On Sep 11, 10:59 am, "Thomas T. Veldhouse" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Perhaps your team should get a chess player onboard
>
> Maybe Sanny thinks *he is* a chess player?
>
>
>> and test it before you
>> release software. Better yet, build unit tests to test various functions in
>> the engine so that you KNOW before you release that your software at least
>> does the things you expect it to do under the test conditions. You will get a
>> lot less heat from the people in this group if you put a little QC around your
>> product.
>
> Functions? Like say, a modular program in which
> a move-generator passes a list to the next function,
> which screens for legality and then passes off the
> revised list (legal moves only) to an analysis function,
> and on down the line? I don't think that is how
> Sanny's program works.
>
> My guess is that Sanny's program has a bunch
> of patched-together code which incorporates a
> multitude of Band-Aid style "fixes", and spits out a
> move (legal or not) only after going through a series
> of contortions and painful exercises, many of which
> would "kill" any normal program the same way a
> lemming is killed when he jumps off a cliff into the
> sea. For Sanny, "testing" is where he goes back
> after the game and meekly asks where the program
> went wrong, so he can then type in another "fix" in
> which the program will play some improvement by
> rote from then on whenever it reaches the same
> position, in exactly the same move order.
>
> In short, the way to help him is by mailing him
> cases of Band-Aids, glue, rubber bands and best
> of all, duck tape.
>

Agreed, it sounds like that. Never-the-less, a released program should have a
QA process and a QA process usually follows a unit testing process [or
incorporates one in batch].

If he doesn't take the suggestion, then perhaps he won't be pestering this
group much longer, but if he does, perhaps he will put out a better product.

--
Thomas T. Veldhouse

We have more to fear from the bungling of the incompetent than from the
machinations of the wicked.

Date: 11 Sep 2007 10:49:02
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: Why are you Winning at GetClub Chess.

> Perhaps your team should get achessplayer onboard and test it before you
> release software. Better yet, build unit tests to test various functions in
> the engine so that you KNOW before you release that your software at least
> does the things you expect it to do under the test conditions. You will get a
> lot less heat from the people in this group if you put a little QC around your
> product.

Chess is a game which is always different and we can never know what
moves opponent will play in reply to computers move.

So we cannot test all the moves I think there are more moves possible
than all the dust particles in the World.

Bye
Sanny.

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

Date: 11 Sep 2007 18:45:10
From: Thomas T. Veldhouse
Subject: Re: Why are you Winning at GetClub Chess.

In rec.games.chess.computer Sanny <[email protected] > wrote:
>
> Chess is a game which is always different and we can never know what
> moves opponent will play in reply to computers move.
>

Apparently you are not a software engineer then. You can test various
functions in the engine for expected results. Put in a position and run a
unit test to determine certain expected results in that position (i.e. certain
moves are always good). Yes, it is possible to put unit testing around that
chess engine ... you just need to put in the hooks and debug.

> So we cannot test all the moves I think there are more moves possible
> than all the dust particles in the World.
>

Nobody said anything about testing all moves. I said make some unit tests
that can stress various functions in your engine. Then at least, you will
know those functions are working as expected under certain test conditions.

--
Thomas T. Veldhouse

We have more to fear from the bungling of the incompetent than from the
machinations of the wicked.

Date: 11 Sep 2007 15:59:20
From: Thomas T. Veldhouse
Subject: Re: Why are you Winning at GetClub Chess.

In rec.games.chess.computer Sanny <[email protected] > wrote:
> I was thinking the GetClub Chess will win a lot of games now, But I am
> seeing that the results are not comming as predicted.
>

Sanjay -

Perhaps your team should get a chess player onboard and test it before you
release software. Better yet, build unit tests to test various functions in
the engine so that you KNOW before you release that your software at least
does the things you expect it to do under the test conditions. You will get a
lot less heat from the people in this group if you put a little QC around your
product.

--
Thomas T. Veldhouse

We have more to fear from the bungling of the incompetent than from the
machinations of the wicked.

Date: 11 Sep 2007 06:39:57
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: Why are you Winning at GetClub Chess.

On Sep 10, 1:32 am, Kenneth Sloan <[email protected] > wrote:
> Sanny wrote:
> > I was thinking theGetClubChesswill win a lot of games now, But I am
> > seeing that the results are not comming as predicted.
>
> Predicted by whom?
>
> Only 1 poster here has predicted that the results would improve - and
> that was you.
>
>
>
> >ChessPlayed at:http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
>
> > Yesterday "Stinky Garlnoot" and "apple3feet" beat Master and Normal
> > Levels.
>
> > See Recorded Games:http://www.getclub.com/cc/showgame.php?num=10
>
> > As per my analysis the games played were Ok. But the result was
> > computer lost.
>
> Your analysis is faulty.
>
> I looked at the "Stinky Garlnoot" game. GetClubwas positionally lost
> after 10 moves. Count the number of moves that it takes to get from f1
> to e2.
>
>
>
> > Winners Go through the Recorded Games and tell me what mistake the
> >GetClubChessis doing. Why it is loosing to strong players?
>
> Because it makes weak moves.
>
>
>
> > What weakness are you seeing in the Games played atGetClubChess. Why
> > it is unable to beat the strong players? Is there any strategy mistake
> > or it is still making tactical mistake.
>
> >GetClubChessthinks 8-10 depth (half move) deeper. Still it lose in
> > games with strong players. Are Strong players using Fritz8 or other
> > computer to play games atGetClubor they are finding theGetclubgame
> > very weak.
>
> No one needs Fritz to beatGetClub. I think a 1980 Radio Shack portable
> computer could beatGetClub.
>
>
>
> > So tell me the weaknesses you find inGetClubChessso that I may
> > remove them.
>
> > Please tell, what should be improved inGetClubChess
>
> > 1. Depth of Moves
> > 2. Game Strategy
> > 3. Tactical Calculations
> > 4. or Any other thing
>
> Observing the stated time control
>
>
>
> > See Recorded Games:http://www.getclub.com/cc/showgame.php?num=10
>
> > I want to seeGetClubChessbeat all the Players playing it, and not
> > only the weak players like me and my friends but also the strong
> > players like "Nomorechess", "Zebediah", "Stinky Garlnoot" and
> > "apple3feet" and "Taylor Kingston" .
>
> You don't always get what you want.
>
>
>
> > Bye
> > Sanny
>
> Promises, promises...
>
>
>
> > PlayChessat:http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
>
> Not untilGetClubstops cheating.
>
> --
> Kenneth Sloan [email protected]
> Computer and Information Sciences +1-205-932-2213
> University of Alabama at Birmingham FAX +1-205-934-5473
> Birmingham, AL 35294-1170 http://www.cis.uab.edu/sloan/

After looking your suggestions, The game was improved a bit today.
Lets see if it plays stronger moves now.

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

Date: 11 Sep 2007 06:39:29
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: Why are you Winning at GetClub Chess.

On Sep 9, 10:58 pm, Taylor Kingston <[email protected] > wrote:
> On Sep 9, 1:18 am, Sanny <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > I was thinking theGetClubChesswill win a lot of games now, But I am
> > seeing that the results are not comming as predicted.
>
> >ChessPlayed at:http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
>
> > Yesterday "Stinky Garlnoot" and "apple3feet" beat Master and Normal
> > Levels.
>
> > See Recorded Games:http://www.getclub.com/cc/showgame.php?num=10
>
> > As per my analysis the games played were Ok.
>
> No, Sanny. I looked at some of those games, and your program made
> mistake after mistake, both tactically and strategically. In the
> opening it wastes time, moving pieces to no purpose, even placing them
> on squares where the opponent gains time for development by attacking
> them. It fails to develop its own pieces. It weakens its pawn
> structure by rash advances that leave its king vulnerable, or by
> letting its pawns get doubled and/or isolated. In some cases it
> obviously was not analyzing more than 3 or 4 ply ahead. It really does
> not seem much improved at all compared to 6 months ago.
>
> > But the result was computer lost.
>
> Yes, that's what happens when one plays badly.
>
> > Winners Go through the Recorded Games and tell me what mistake the
> >GetClubChessis doing. Why it is loosing to strong players?
>
> Sanny, quit wasting your time asking this sort of question here.
> Educate yourself aboutchess. Get some decent books and learn the
> fundamentals of the game. And quit making ridiculous claims about your
> inept program.

After looking your suggestions, The game was improved a bit today.
Lets see if it plays stronger moves now.

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

Date: 11 Sep 2007 10:40:33
From: Kenneth Sloan
Subject: Re: Why are you Winning at GetClub Chess.

Sanny wrote:
>
> After looking your suggestions, The game was improved a bit today.
> Lets see if it plays stronger moves now.
>

Does your program still cheat?

--
Kenneth Sloan [email protected]
Computer and Information Sciences +1-205-932-2213
University of Alabama at Birmingham FAX +1-205-934-5473
Birmingham, AL 35294-1170 http://www.cis.uab.edu/sloan/

Date: 11 Sep 2007 06:38:08
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: Why are you Winning at GetClub Chess.

> In spite of comments which strongly imply a certain
> depth of search, I find that the program is not even
> aware of itself being checkmated until one or perhaps
> two moves beforehand. This is good evidence that the
> program is weak tactically, and until it can see simple
> tactics like mate-in-two there is no reason to waste
> time thinking about strategy or trying to punch in more
> opening lines for it to play by rote.

It sees checkmates in 3 & 4 depending upon Level. But to complete a
game It waits till Mait in 2 is found. As opponent may miss a Maten in
4 While computer has seen it.

After looking your suggestions, The game was improved a bit today.
Lets see if it plays stronger moves now.

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

Date: 10 Sep 2007 11:09:19
From: help bot
Subject: Re: Why are you Winning at GetClub Chess.

On Sep 9, 12:18 am, Sanny <[email protected] > wrote:

> I was thinking the GetClub Chess will win a lot of games now, But I am
> seeing that the results are not comming as predicted.

> Winners Go through the Recorded Games and tell me what mistake the
> GetClub Chess is doing. Why it is loosing to strong players?
>
> What weakness are you seeing in the Games played at GetClub Chess. Why
> it is unable to beat the strong players? Is there any strategy mistake
> or it is still making tactical mistake.

In spite of comments which strongly imply a certain
depth of search, I find that the program is not even
aware of itself being checkmated until one or perhaps
two moves beforehand. This is good evidence that the
program is weak tactically, and until it can see simple
tactics like mate-in-two there is no reason to waste
time thinking about strategy or trying to punch in more
opening lines for it to play by rote.

Other Java applets play just fine, so I don't quite
understand why it is that with GetClub the applet
takes so long to load and then runs so s-l-o-w-l-y
and why there must be frequent disconnects, why
the Web site is so messed up, etc. A lot of time
has been spent to get the site where it is today (no
matter how sad that may be), so I understand the
reluctance to try another approach -- one where you
follow programming guidelines and test software for
bugs and so forth.

Let me suggest an experiment, whereby you can
keep your buggy Web site and your present chess
programs, and simply add a side project then. Set
up a new "level"; call it Fish Level and write the code
so the program only does two things:

1) generates a list of all legal moves in a given
position

and

2) use simple arithmetic to add up the values of
the men on the board, returning for instance the
value "0" for the starting position and "-1" where it
has lost a pawn.

Now, using only this simple arithmetic, analyze
the possible (legal) variations until a fixed depth
has been reached, and then have the program play
the move which nets the largest value in its own
favor. In other words, if it can grab the King, have
it grab the King; if it can take the enemy Queen,
have it do that, etc. Just look a few moves deep
and then play the best move it has found.

My prediction is that unless even this approach if
screwed up somehow, it will play better than what
you have now because it will *always* get the simple
tactics part of chess right.

-- help bot

Date: 09 Sep 2007 15:32:57
From: Kenneth Sloan
Subject: Re: Why are you Winning at GetClub Chess.

Sanny wrote:
> I was thinking the GetClub Chess will win a lot of games now, But I am
> seeing that the results are not comming as predicted.

Predicted by whom?

Only 1 poster here has predicted that the results would improve - and
that was you.

>
> Chess Played at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
>
> Yesterday "Stinky Garlnoot" and "apple3feet" beat Master and Normal
> Levels.
>
> See Recorded Games: http://www.getclub.com/cc/showgame.php?num=10
>
> As per my analysis the games played were Ok. But the result was
> computer lost.

Your analysis is faulty.

I looked at the "Stinky Garlnoot" game. GetClub was positionally lost
after 10 moves. Count the number of moves that it takes to get from f1
to e2.

>
> Winners Go through the Recorded Games and tell me what mistake the
> GetClub Chess is doing. Why it is loosing to strong players?

Because it makes weak moves.

>
> What weakness are you seeing in the Games played at GetClub Chess. Why
> it is unable to beat the strong players? Is there any strategy mistake
> or it is still making tactical mistake.
>
> GetClub Chess thinks 8-10 depth (half move) deeper. Still it lose in
> games with strong players. Are Strong players using Fritz8 or other
> computer to play games at GetClub or they are finding the Getclub game
> very weak.

No one needs Fritz to beat GetClub. I think a 1980 Radio Shack portable
computer could beat GetClub.

>
> So tell me the weaknesses you find in GetClub Chess so that I may
> remove them.
>
> Please tell, what should be improved in GetClub Chess
>
> 1. Depth of Moves
> 2. Game Strategy
> 3. Tactical Calculations
> 4. or Any other thing

Observing the stated time control

>
> See Recorded Games: http://www.getclub.com/cc/showgame.php?num=10
>
> I want to see GetClub Chess beat all the Players playing it, and not
> only the weak players like me and my friends but also the strong
> players like "Nomorechess", "Zebediah", "Stinky Garlnoot" and
> "apple3feet" and "Taylor Kingston" .
>

You don't always get what you want.

>
> Bye
> Sanny

Promises, promises...

>
> Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
>

Not until GetClub stops cheating.

--
Kenneth Sloan [email protected]
Computer and Information Sciences +1-205-932-2213
University of Alabama at Birmingham FAX +1-205-934-5473
Birmingham, AL 35294-1170 http://www.cis.uab.edu/sloan/

Date: 09 Sep 2007 10:58:52
From: Taylor Kingston
Subject: Re: Why are you Winning at GetClub Chess.

On Sep 9, 1:18 am, Sanny <[email protected] > wrote:
> I was thinking the GetClub Chess will win a lot of games now, But I am
> seeing that the results are not comming as predicted.
>
> Chess Played at:http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
>
> Yesterday "Stinky Garlnoot" and "apple3feet" beat Master and Normal
> Levels.
>
> See Recorded Games:http://www.getclub.com/cc/showgame.php?num=10
>
> As per my analysis the games played were Ok.

No, Sanny. I looked at some of those games, and your program made
mistake after mistake, both tactically and strategically. In the
opening it wastes time, moving pieces to no purpose, even placing them
on squares where the opponent gains time for development by attacking
them. It fails to develop its own pieces. It weakens its pawn
structure by rash advances that leave its king vulnerable, or by
letting its pawns get doubled and/or isolated. In some cases it
obviously was not analyzing more than 3 or 4 ply ahead. It really does
not seem much improved at all compared to 6 months ago.

> But the result was computer lost.

Yes, that's what happens when one plays badly.

> Winners Go through the Recorded Games and tell me what mistake the
> GetClub Chess is doing. Why it is loosing to strong players?

Sanny, quit wasting your time asking this sort of question here.
Educate yourself about chess. Get some decent books and learn the
fundamentals of the game. And quit making ridiculous claims about your
inept program.

Date: 09 Sep 2007 01:23:38
From: Anonymous
Subject: Re: Why are you Winning at GetClub Chess.

"Sanny" < > I was thinking the GetClub Chess will win a lot of games now, But
I am
> seeing that the results are not comming as predicted.
>

You are an annoying retard.