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Main
Date: 16 Aug 2007 12:40:13
From:
Subject: Turing engine
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Is turing engine in any rating list, like ssdf? Has anybody tried it against a wide variety of opponents to estimate its elo? Is there anywhere in the web more info about how it works? Thanks
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Date: 19 Aug 2007 13:50:52
From:
Subject: Re: Alan Turing's Chess program
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Well it is extremely slow. Keeping in mind that it doesn't have any chess knowledge, then it must have no selective search in order to be so slow. It has no options. rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1 Analysis by Turing: 1=2Ea3 =B1 (0.80) Depth: 1 00:00:00 1=2Ea4 +- (1.80) Depth: 1 00:00:00 1=2Ec4 +- (1.80) Depth: 1 00:00:00 1=2Ed3 +- (2.70) Depth: 1 00:00:00 1=2Ed4 +- (3.30) Depth: 1 00:00:00 1=2Ee3 +- (4.40) Depth: 1 00:00:00 1=2Ee3 Nc6 +- (4.40) Depth: 2 00:00:00 1=2Ee3 Nc6 2.e4 +- (4.40) Depth: 3 00:00:00 1=2Ee3 Nc6 2.e4 Rb8 +- (4.40) Depth: 4 00:00:01 1=2Ee3 Nc6 2.e4 Rb8 3.a3 +- (4.40) Depth: 5 00:00:03 1=2Ee3 Nc6 2.e4 Rb8 3.a3 Ra8 +- (4.40) Depth: 6 00:00:14 It doesn't mind how long you give it to think it sticks with e3! And for black side regardless white's first move: It sticks to e6! for example after e4 rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/4P3/8/PPPP1PPP/RNBQKBNR b KQkq e3 0 1 Analysis by Turing: 1=2E..Nc6 -+ (-1.80) Depth: 1 00:00:00 1=2E..Nf6 -+ (-2.00) Depth: 1 00:00:00 1=2E..d6 -+ (-2.70) Depth: 1 00:00:00 1=2E..d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 -+ (-3.30) Depth: 1 00:00:00 1=2E..e6 -+ (-4.40) Depth: 1 00:00:00 1=2E..e6 2.e5 -+ (-4.40) Depth: 2 00:00:00 1=2E..e6 2.e5 Nc6 -+ (-4.40) Depth: 3 00:00:00 1=2E..e6 2.e5 Nc6 3.d4 -+ (-4.40) Depth: 4 00:00:01 1=2E..e6 2.e5 Nc6 3.d4 Rb8 -+ (-4.40) Depth: 5 00:00:05 1=2E..e6 2.e5 Nc6 3.d4 Rb8 4.a3 -+ (-4.40) Depth: 6 00:00:30 after d4 rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/3P4/8/PPP1PPPP/RNBQKBNR b KQkq d3 0 1 Analysis by Turing: 1=2E..Nc6 -+ (-2.00) Depth: 1 00:00:00 1=2E..d6 -+ (-2.70) Depth: 1 00:00:00 1=2E..d5 -+ (-3.30) Depth: 1 00:00:00 1=2E..e6 -+ (-4.40) Depth: 1 00:00:00 1=2E..e6 2.d5 exd5 3.Qxd5 -+ (-4.40) Depth: 2 00:00:00 1=2E..e6 2.d5 exd5 3.Qxd5 -+ (-4.40) Depth: 3 00:00:00 1=2E..e6 2.d5 exd5 3.Qxd5 -+ (-4.40) Depth: 4 00:00:01 1=2E..e6 2.d5 exd5 3.Qxd5 Nc6 -+ (-4.40) Depth: 5 00:00:06 1=2E..e6 2.d5 exd5 3.Qxd5 Nc6 4.Qc4 -+ (-4.40) Depth: 6 00:01:24 after c4 rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/2P5/8/PP1PPPPP/RNBQKBNR b KQkq c3 0 1 Analysis by Turing: 1=2E..Nc6 -+ (-1.80) Depth: 1 00:00:00 1=2E..Nf6 -+ (-1.80) Depth: 1 00:00:00 1=2E..a5 -+ (-1.80) Depth: 1 00:00:00 1=2E..d6 -+ (-2.70) Depth: 1 00:00:00 1=2E..d5 2.cxd5 Qxd5 -+ (-3.30) Depth: 1 00:00:00 1=2E..e6 -+ (-4.40) Depth: 1 00:00:00 1=2E..e6 2.a3 -+ (-4.40) Depth: 2 00:00:00 1=2E..e6 2.a3 Nc6 -+ (-4.40) Depth: 3 00:00:00 1=2E..e6 2.a3 Nc6 3.a4 -+ (-4.40) Depth: 4 00:00:05 1=2E..e6 2.a3 Nc6 3.a4 Rb8 -+ (-4.40) Depth: 5 00:00:25 1=2E..e6 2.a3 Nc6 3.a4 Rb8 4.a5 -+ (-4.40) Depth: 6 00:05:43 after Nf3 rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/5N2/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKB1R b KQkq - 0 1 Analysis by Turing: 1=2E..Nc6 -+ (-1.80) Depth: 1 00:00:00 1=2E..Nf6 -+ (-1.80) Depth: 1 00:00:00 1=2E..a5 -+ (-1.80) Depth: 1 00:00:00 1=2E..d6 -+ (-2.70) Depth: 1 00:00:00 1=2E..d5 -+ (-3.30) Depth: 1 00:00:00 1=2E..e6 -+ (-4.40) Depth: 1 00:00:00 1=2E..e6 2.Ng1 -+ (-4.40) Depth: 2 00:00:00 1=2E..e6 2.Ng1 Nc6 -+ (-4.40) Depth: 3 00:00:00 1=2E..e6 2.Ng1 Nc6 3.a3 -+ (-4.40) Depth: 4 00:00:01 1=2E..e6 2.Ng1 Nc6 3.a3 Rb8 -+ (-4.40) Depth: 5 00:00:04 1=2E..e6 2.Ng1 Nc6 3.a3 Rb8 4.a4 -+ (-4.40) Depth: 6 00:00:16 and after b3 rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/1P6/P1PPPPPP/RNBQKBNR b KQkq - 0 1 Analysis by Turing: 1=2E..Nc6 -+ (-1.80) Depth: 1 00:00:00 1=2E..Nf6 -+ (-1.80) Depth: 1 00:00:00 1=2E..a5 -+ (-1.80) Depth: 1 00:00:00 1=2E..d6 -+ (-2.70) Depth: 1 00:00:00 1=2E..d5 -+ (-3.30) Depth: 1 00:00:00 1=2E..e6 -+ (-4.40) Depth: 1 00:00:00 1=2E..e6 2.a3 -+ (-4.40) Depth: 2 00:00:00 1=2E..e6 2.a3 Nc6 -+ (-4.40) Depth: 3 00:00:00 1=2E..e6 2.a3 Nc6 3.a4 -+ (-4.40) Depth: 4 00:00:01 1=2E..e6 2.a3 Nc6 3.a4 Rb8 -+ (-4.40) Depth: 5 00:00:03 1=2E..e6 2.a3 Nc6 3.a4 Rb8 4.a5 -+ (-4.40) Depth: 6 00:00:12 after 1.e4e5 rnbqkbnr/pppp1ppp/8/4p3/4P3/8/PPPP1PPP/RNBQKBNR w KQkq e6 0 1 Analysis by Turing: 2=2Ea3 =B1 (0.80) Depth: 1 00:00:00 2=2Ea4 +- (1.80) Depth: 1 00:00:00 2=2Ed4 exd4 3.Qxd4 +- (2.70) Depth: 1 00:00:00 2=2ENc3 +- (3.10) Depth: 1 00:00:00 2=2ENc3 Nc6 +- (3.10) Depth: 2 00:00:00 2=2ENc3 Nc6 3.Nd5 +- (3.10) Depth: 3 00:00:00 2=2ENc3 Nc6 3.Nd5 Rb8 +- (3.10) Depth: 4 00:00:02 2=2ENc3 Nc6 3.Nd5 Rb8 4.Ne3 +- (3.10) Depth: 5 00:00:12 2=2ENc3 Nc6 3.Nd5 Rb8 4.Ne3 Ra8 +- (3.10) Depth: 6 00:00:52 after 1.e4e5 2.Nc3 rnbqkbnr/pppp1ppp/8/4p3/4P3/2N5/PPPP1PPP/R1BQKBNR b KQkq - 0 1 Analysis by Turing: 2=2E..Nc6 -+ (-2.10) Depth: 1 00:00:00 2=2E..Qf6 -+ (-2.10) Depth: 1 00:00:00 2=2E..Qg5 -+ (-2.10) Depth: 1 00:00:00 2=2E..Qg5 3.Nd5 -+ (-2.10) Depth: 2 00:00:00 2=2E..Qg5 3.Nd5 Kd8 -+ (-2.10) Depth: 3 00:00:00 2=2E..Qg5 3.Nd5 Kd8 4.Ne3 -+ (-2.10) Depth: 4 00:00:03 2=2E..Qg5 3.Nd5 Kd8 4.Ne3 Nc6 -+ (-2.10) Depth: 5 00:00:16 2=2E..Qg5 3.Nd5 Kd8 4.Ne3 Nc6 5.Nf5 -+ (-2.10) Depth: 6 00:01:19 and after 2....Qg5 rnb1kbnr/pppp1ppp/8/4p1q1/4P3/2N5/PPPP1PPP/R1BQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1 Analysis by Turing: 3=2ENd5 =3D (0.00) Depth: 1 00:00:00 3=2Ea3 =B1 (0.80) Depth: 1 00:00:00 3=2Ea4 =B1 (1.10) Depth: 1 00:00:00 3=2Ed4 +- (2.20) Depth: 1 00:00:00 3=2Ed4 Qf6 +- (2.20) Depth: 2 00:00:00 3=2Ed4 Qf6 4.dxe5 Qxe5 +- (2.20) Depth: 3 00:00:00 3=2Ed4 Qf6 4.dxe5 Qxe5 +- (2.20) Depth: 4 00:00:03 3=2Ed4 Qf6 4.dxe5 Qxe5 5.a3 +- (2.20) Depth: 5 00:00:23 3=2Ed4 Qf6 4.dxe5 Qxe5 5.a3 Nc6 +- (2.20) Depth: 6 00:01:43 Interesting the fact how the score keeps changing rapidly depending on the side playing Don't pay attention on the time, my pc was under heavy load at the time.
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Date: 17 Aug 2007 23:44:38
From: Guy Macon
Subject: Re: Alan Turing's Chess program
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[email protected] wrote: >I had no idea we lost it completely. >Are you aware of any effort to reconstruct it? >Or to make some valid educated guess about how it was working apart >from the non-detailed info on chessbase? See my other post in this thread to see more on whether it is actually lost or not.
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Date: 17 Aug 2007 10:53:03
From:
Subject: Re: Alan Turing's Chess program (was: Turing engine)
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On Aug 17, 10:45 am, Guy Macon <http://www.guymacon.com/ > wrote: > [email protected] wrote: > >Is turing engine in any rating list, like ssdf? Has anybody tried it > >against a wide variety of opponents to estimate its elo? > > >Is there anywhere in the web more info about how it works? > > "Turing Engine" has another meaning. I suggest calling it > "Alan Turing's Chess Program" or "TurboChamp." > > Nobody has tried it against other programs for the following > reasons: > > [1] > Alan Turing's Chess program has been lost to history. > No copies survived. > > [2] > Alan Turing's Chess program was written long before there > existed any computer that could run it, So Turing ran it > by hand using a pencil and paper, taking about half an > hour to compute each move. > > [3] > Alan Turing's Chess program was incredibly weak. There > would be no point in playing it against even the weakest > programs written for actual computers. > > Here is the only recorded game of Alan Turing's TurboChamp: > > Event "First game by the frst chess program"] > [Site "Manchester, England"] > [Date "1952"] > [White "Turing's TurboChamp"] > [Black "Alick Glennie"] > [Result "0-1"] > > 1. e4 e5 > 2. Nc3 Nf6 > 3. d4 Bb4 > 4. Nf3 d6 > 5. Bd2 Nc6 > 6. d5 Nd4 > 7. h4 Bg4 > 8. a4 Nxf3+ > 9. gxf3 Bh5 > 10. Bb5+ c6 > 11. dxc6 O-O > 12. cxb7 Rb8 > 13. Ba6 Qa5 > 14. Qe2 Nd7 > 15. Rg1 Nc5 > 16. Rg5 Bg6 > 17. Bb5 Nxb7 > 18. O-O-O Nc5 > 19. Bc6 Rfc8 > 20. Bd5 Bxc3 > 21. Bxc3 Qxa4 > 22. Kd2 Ne6 > 23. Rg4 Nd4 > 24. Qd3 Nb5 > 25. Bb3 Qa6 > 26. Bc4 Bh5 > 27. Rg3 Qa4 > 28. Bxb5 Qxb5 > 29. Qxd6 Rd8 > > -- > Guy Macon > <http://www.guymacon.com/> HI Guy, all these are very interesting. I had no idea we lost it completely. Are you aware of any effort to reconstruct it? Or to make some valid educated guess about how it was working apart from the non-detailed info on chessbase? Thanks for the game Thanks
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Date: 17 Aug 2007 10:42:54
From:
Subject: Re: Turing engine
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On Aug 17, 1:43 am, Tony M <[email protected] > wrote: > On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 12:40:13 -0700, [email protected] wrote: > >Is turing engine in any rating list, like ssdf? Has anybody tried it > >against a wide variety of opponents to estimate its elo? > > >Is there anywhere in the web more info about how it works? > > >Thanks > > Turing is much too weak of an engine to appear on the SSDF rating > list. There are a couple of other testers who do include it in their > lists. You can look at these links to get a general idea of its > strength:http://www.grailmaster.com/misc/chess/comp/all.htmlhttp://loirechecs.chez-alice.fr/chesswar/Chesswar011PLs.htm > > The chessbase page that has the Turing download has an explanation of > Turing.http://www.chessbase.com/download/download2.asp > > Tony Thank you Tony, but i already knew about the chesbase engine. I realized quickly it is rather weak, but i didn't know it was so weak! There is some info on chessbase but i m still qurious about its actual algorithm
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Date: 17 Aug 2007 07:45:24
From: Guy Macon
Subject: Alan Turing's Chess program (was: Turing engine)
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[email protected] wrote: >Is turing engine in any rating list, like ssdf? Has anybody tried it >against a wide variety of opponents to estimate its elo? > >Is there anywhere in the web more info about how it works? "Turing Engine" has another meaning. I suggest calling it "Alan Turing's Chess Program" or "TurboChamp." Nobody has tried it against other programs for the following reasons: [1] Alan Turing's Chess program has been lost to history. No copies survived. [2] Alan Turing's Chess program was written long before there existed any computer that could run it, So Turing ran it by hand using a pencil and paper, taking about half an hour to compute each move. [3] Alan Turing's Chess program was incredibly weak. There would be no point in playing it against even the weakest programs written for actual computers. Here is the only recorded game of Alan Turing's TurboChamp: Event "First game by the frst chess program"] [Site "Manchester, England"] [Date "1952"] [White "Turing's TurboChamp"] [Black "Alick Glennie"] [Result "0-1"] 1. e4 e5 2. Nc3 Nf6 3. d4 Bb4 4. Nf3 d6 5. Bd2 Nc6 6. d5 Nd4 7. h4 Bg4 8. a4 Nxf3+ 9. gxf3 Bh5 10. Bb5+ c6 11. dxc6 O-O 12. cxb7 Rb8 13. Ba6 Qa5 14. Qe2 Nd7 15. Rg1 Nc5 16. Rg5 Bg6 17. Bb5 Nxb7 18. O-O-O Nc5 19. Bc6 Rfc8 20. Bd5 Bxc3 21. Bxc3 Qxa4 22. Kd2 Ne6 23. Rg4 Nd4 24. Qd3 Nb5 25. Bb3 Qa6 26. Bc4 Bh5 27. Rg3 Qa4 28. Bxb5 Qxb5 29. Qxd6 Rd8 -- Guy Macon <http://www.guymacon.com/ >
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Date: 16 Aug 2007 22:43:12
From: Tony M
Subject: Re: Turing engine
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On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 12:40:13 -0700, [email protected] wrote: >Is turing engine in any rating list, like ssdf? Has anybody tried it >against a wide variety of opponents to estimate its elo? > >Is there anywhere in the web more info about how it works? > >Thanks Turing is much too weak of an engine to appear on the SSDF rating list. There are a couple of other testers who do include it in their lists. You can look at these links to get a general idea of its strength: http://www.grailmaster.com/misc/chess/comp/all.html http://loirechecs.chez-alice.fr/chesswar/Chesswar011PLs.htm The chessbase page that has the Turing download has an explanation of Turing. http://www.chessbase.com/download/download2.asp Tony
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Date: 17 Aug 2007 08:02:25
From: Guy Macon
Subject: Alan Turing's Chess program (was: Turing engine)
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Tony M wrote: > >On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 12:40:13 -0700, [email protected] wrote: > >>Is turing engine in any rating list, like ssdf? Has anybody tried it >>against a wide variety of opponents to estimate its elo? >> >>Is there anywhere in the web more info about how it works? >> >>Thanks > >Turing is much too weak of an engine to appear on the SSDF rating >list. There are a couple of other testers who do include it in their >lists. You can look at these links to get a general idea of its >strength: >http://www.grailmaster.com/misc/chess/comp/all.html >http://loirechecs.chez-alice.fr/chesswar/Chesswar011PLs.htm I would be very interested in seeing what they are calling "Turing." I am guessing an unrelated program using the name Turing, not the chess program written by Alan Turing, which was lost. >The chessbase page that has the Turing download has an explanation of >Turing. >http://www.chessbase.com/download/download2.asp That link leads to a page with no references to "Turing" -- Guy Macon <http://www.guymacon.com/ >
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Date: 17 Aug 2007 15:55:18
From: Tony M
Subject: Re: Alan Turing's Chess program (was: Turing engine)
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On Fri, 17 Aug 2007 08:02:25 +0000, Guy Macon <http://www.guymacon.com/ > wrote: >I would be very interested in seeing what they are calling >"Turing." I am guessing an unrelated program using the name >Turing, not the chess program written by Alan Turing, which >was lost. > It's a Chessbase engine, written by Ken Thompson and Mathias Feist, that is an implementation of Turing's "famous paper machine". http://www.chessbase.com/columns/column.asp?pid=102 >>The chessbase page that has the Turing download has an explanation of >>Turing. >>http://www.chessbase.com/download/download2.asp > >That link leads to a page with no references to "Turing" I know, I posted a corrected link in reply to myself in this thread. Here it is again, in case my post didn't come through on your server. http://www.chessbase.com/download/index.asp Select Engines from the drop down list. Tony
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Date: 17 Aug 2007 23:47:35
From: Guy Macon
Subject: Re: Alan Turing's Chess program
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Tony M wrote: > >Guy Macon <http://www.guymacon.com/> wrote: > >>I would be very interested in seeing what they are calling >>"Turing." I am guessing an unrelated program using the name >>Turing, not the chess program written by Alan Turing, which >>was lost. >> > >It's a Chessbase engine, written by Ken Thompson and Mathias Feist, >that is an implementation of Turing's "famous paper machine". >http://www.chessbase.com/download/index.asp > >Select Engines from the drop down list. Fascinating! It sure looks like Thompson and Feist had a copy of Turing's original program that other sources say was lost. I just went on a quest to ether find the program they started with or the source code to the program they wrote. I started with the description at the above URL: Turing Chess engine for Fritz by Mathias Feist and Ken Thompson which implements the famous paper machine by Alan Turing. The orginal set of rules was incomplete and unclear in several points, which are discussed below. 1. no mention was made of stalemate; detection was added with a positional evaluation of 0.0, which seemed to be the most logical. 2. a move gets a bonus if threatening mate in 1; a threat obviously means a nullmove for the other side which is illegal if the move was giving check. Still it may be a mate in 1 move. This was ignored, the move just gets the bonus for a checking move. 3. algorithm enhanced so that the engine may play with both sides, i.e. everything logically negated if black to move. 4. iterative deepening added to allow higher search depths. 5. a recapture is not made entirely clear: it is considered to be a capture to the same square as the previous move. 6. rule d) is not clear about checks/enemy pieces; a wKe1 and a wPe4 give the vulnerability of e2+e3, but a bPe4 gives an additional vulnerability of e4. Doesn't sound logical. 7. calculating the material value is impossible if one side is left with the king only. A division by zero would occur. In this case the material value is material+1.0 of the other side. The algorithm is based on material value, at the root moves with equal material values are resolved by positional values which are shown as the evaluation. This is not completely satisfying since the positional values are rather "jerky" and the more important material values are hidden. You download a setup program which allows you to install the engine in the Fritz directory. Download Turing Engine: http://www.chessbase.com/download/engines/setup%20turing.exe I downloaded it and ran it, and it created a single file called Turing.eng, dated 16-09-2003 19:19 with a size of 139,264 bytes. Extracting various text strings from the above, I see: R6028 - unable to initialize heap R6026 - not enough space for stdio initialization R6017 - unexpected multithread lock error R6002 - floating point not loaded Microsoft Visual C++ Runtime Library Runtime Error! Program: ... <program name unknown > Chess32.dll Turing.eng Turing Mathias Feist & Ken Thompson ... So it's a Microsoft Visual C++ program with a Chess32.dll The obvious Google searches turned up nothing: Your search - Feist "turing.eng" - did not match any documents. Your search - Feist "turing.c" - did not match any documents. Your search - Feist "Chess32.dll" - did not match any documents. Your search - Feist "Chess32.c" - did not match any documents. Your search - turing "Chess engine for Fritz" - did not match any documents. So, does anyone have any other information on this algorithm -- either the Turing or the Thompson and Feist version? Could someone with Fritz please run Turing.eng and tell me if it displays any other information (splash screen, copyright, help screens, etc.) and if possible post any that might help in my search? -- Guy Macon <http://www.guymacon.com/ >
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Date: 19 Aug 2007 16:29:03
From: Tony M
Subject: Re: Alan Turing's Chess program
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On Fri, 17 Aug 2007 23:47:35 +0000, Guy Macon <http://www.guymacon.com/ > wrote: >I downloaded it and ran it, and it created a single >file called Turing.eng, dated 16-09-2003 19:19 with >a size of 139,264 bytes. > >Extracting various text strings from the above, I see: > >R6028 - unable to initialize heap >R6026 - not enough space for stdio initialization >R6017 - unexpected multithread lock error >R6002 - floating point not loaded >Microsoft Visual C++ Runtime Library >Runtime Error! Program: ... <program name unknown> >Chess32.dll >Turing.eng >Turing Mathias Feist & Ken Thompson > >... So it's a Microsoft Visual C++ program with a Chess32.dll > >The obvious Google searches turned up nothing: > >Your search - Feist "turing.eng" - did not match any documents. >Your search - Feist "turing.c" - did not match any documents. >Your search - Feist "Chess32.dll" - did not match any documents. >Your search - Feist "Chess32.c" - did not match any documents. >Your search - turing "Chess engine for Fritz" - did not match any documents. > >So, does anyone have any other information on this algorithm > -- either the Turing or the Thompson and Feist version? > >Could someone with Fritz please run Turing.eng and tell me if >it displays any other information (splash screen, copyright, >help screens, etc.) and if possible post any that might help >in my search? Hi Guy. chess32.dll is the .dll that Chessbase GUIs use to communicate with Chessbase engines. turing.eng is an engine file meant to run only under a Chessbase GUI. When I run it here, the copyright screen simply says: Engine 'Turing' Mathias Feist & Ken Thompson Unfortunately I can't seem to find much more information on this. If you want to try out the Turing engine yourself without having to pay for a Chessbase product, you can use it with the Fritz 6 demo. You can get the demo at http://ftp.carnet.hr/misc/chess/Fritz6Demo.zip. Tony
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Date: 16 Aug 2007 23:40:24
From: Tony M
Subject: Re: Turing engine
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On Thu, 16 Aug 2007 22:43:12 GMT, Tony M <[email protected] > wrote: > >The chessbase page that has the Turing download has an explanation of >Turing. >http://www.chessbase.com/download/download2.asp > >Tony This link didn't seem to work for me when I revisited it. Try http://www.chessbase.com/download/index.asp and then select Engines from the drop down list and click the select program button. Tony
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