Newbie looking for data structure

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Date: 28 Nov 2006 14:24:56
From: Clueless Newie
Subject: Newbie looking for data structure

I am developing my knowledge of a particular opening, and have
been making notes in the form of a tree -- if I make such and such
a move, my opponent has these possible replies, and my answer to
each is such and such.

The tree is getting too large/complex to keep track of in a simple
text file and has duplication (the same position arrived at by
different move sequences.)

Is there some standard format for recording an opening book that I
can use? Ideally it would be human-readable, but I will invest in
a program if that's the only way. Any references would be appreciated.

Date: 30 Nov 2006 10:04:50
From: David Richerby
Subject: Re: Newbie looking for data structure

Clueless Newie <[email protected] > wrote:
> Is there some standard format for recording an opening book that I
> can use? Ideally it would be human-readable, but I will invest in a
> program if that's the only way. Any references would be
> appreciated.

I'm surprised Mike Leahy hasn't posted suggesting his software,
Bookup. I've no idea if it's any good or produces human-readable
files but it seems to be designed for exactle the problem you're
trying to solve.

Google should give you the URL.

Dave.

--
David Richerby Addictive Hilarious Umbrella (TM):
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ it's like an umbrella but it's a
bundle of laughs and you can never
put it down!

Date: 29 Nov 2006 06:47:14
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Newbie looking for data structure

Clueless Newie wrote:
> I am developing my knowledge of a particular opening, and have
> been making notes in the form of a tree -- if I make such and such
> a move, my opponent has these possible replies, and my answer to
> each is such and such.
>
> The tree is getting too large/complex to keep track of in a simple
> text file and has duplication (the same position arrived at by
> different move sequences.)
>
> Is there some standard format for recording an opening book that I
> can use? Ideally it would be human-readable, but I will invest in
> a program if that's the only way. Any references would be appreciated.

Chessbase is what you need. Best of Show. You can print tables
(ECO-like), add keys, delete keys, etc.

http://chess-training.blogspot.com

Date: 29 Nov 2006 17:44:12
From: M Winther
Subject: Re: Newbie looking for data structure

Den 2006-11-29 15:47:14 skrev [email protected]
<[email protected] >:

>
> Clueless Newie wrote:
>> I am developing my knowledge of a particular opening, and have
>> been making notes in the form of a tree -- if I make such and such
>> a move, my opponent has these possible replies, and my answer to
>> each is such and such.
>>
>> The tree is getting too large/complex to keep track of in a simple
>> text file and has duplication (the same position arrived at by
>> different move sequences.)
>>
>> Is there some standard format for recording an opening book that I
>> can use? Ideally it would be human-readable, but I will invest in
>> a program if that's the only way. Any references would be appreciated.
>
> Chessbase is what you need. Best of Show. You can print tables
> (ECO-like), add keys, delete keys, etc.
>
> http://chess-training.blogspot.com
>

The ECO style tables are very nice. However, working with opening keys in
ChessBase is tedious. I doubt that anybody has succeeded in this. It is
tricky
and it takes too much time to create keys. I suppose that most chessBase
users use the separate tree instead.

Comparatively, creating several keys (the whole line) in TascBase, is done
with two key strokes, and the keys become integrated in the chess tree,
unlike in ChessBase.

TascBase is superior tool for the person who wants to work with his own
variants, and developing them. ChessBase is more of a playground for the
chess enthusiast, a lot of functions that are fun but not indispensable.

Mats

Date: 30 Nov 2006 09:32:00
From: Clueless Newie
Subject: Re: Newbie looking for data structure

M Winther wrote:
>
>skrev [email protected]
>
>> Clueless Newie wrote:
>
>>> I am developing my knowledge of a particular opening, and have
>>> been making notes in the form of a tree -- if I make such and such
>>> a move, my opponent has these possible replies, and my answer to
>>> each is such and such.
>>>
>>> The tree is getting too large/complex to keep track of in a simple
>>> text file and has duplication (the same position arrived at by
>>> different move sequences.)
>>>
>>> Is there some standard format for recording an opening book that I
>>> can use? Ideally it would be human-readable, but I will invest in
>>> a program if that's the only way. Any references would be appreciated.
>>
>> Chessbase is what you need. Best of Show. You can print tables
>> (ECO-like), add keys, delete keys, etc.
>>
>> http://chess-training.blogspot.com
>>
>
>The ECO style tables are very nice. However, working with opening keys in
>ChessBase is tedious. I doubt that anybody has succeeded in this. It is
>tricky
>and it takes too much time to create keys. I suppose that most chessBase
>users use the separate tree instead.
>
>Comparatively, creating several keys (the whole line) in TascBase, is done
>with two key strokes, and the keys become integrated in the chess tree,
>unlike in ChessBase.
>
>TascBase is superior tool for the person who wants to work with his own
>variants, and developing them. ChessBase is more of a playground for the
>chess enthusiast, a lot of functions that are fun but not indispensable.

What is an opening key and why would I want to create one?

Date: 02 Dec 2006 19:24:57
From: M Winther
Subject: Re: Newbie looking for data structure

Den 2006-11-30 10:32:00 skrev Clueless Newie <[email protected] >:

>
>
> M Winther wrote:
>>
>> skrev [email protected]
>>
>>> Clueless Newie wrote:
>>
>>>> I am developing my knowledge of a particular opening, and have
>>>> been making notes in the form of a tree -- if I make such and such
>>>> a move, my opponent has these possible replies, and my answer to
>>>> each is such and such.
>>>>
>>>> The tree is getting too large/complex to keep track of in a simple
>>>> text file and has duplication (the same position arrived at by
>>>> different move sequences.)
>>>>
>>>> Is there some standard format for recording an opening book that I
>>>> can use? Ideally it would be human-readable, but I will invest in
>>>> a program if that's the only way. Any references would be
>>>> appreciated.
>>>
>>> Chessbase is what you need. Best of Show. You can print tables
>>> (ECO-like), add keys, delete keys, etc.
>>>
>>> http://chess-training.blogspot.com
>>>
>>
>> The ECO style tables are very nice. However, working with opening keys
>> in
>> ChessBase is tedious. I doubt that anybody has succeeded in this. It is
>> tricky
>> and it takes too much time to create keys. I suppose that most chessBase
>> users use the separate tree instead.
>>
>> Comparatively, creating several keys (the whole line) in TascBase, is
>> done
>> with two key strokes, and the keys become integrated in the chess tree,
>> unlike in ChessBase.
>>
>> TascBase is superior tool for the person who wants to work with his own
>> variants, and developing them. ChessBase is more of a playground for the
>> chess enthusiast, a lot of functions that are fun but not indispensable.
>
> What is an opening key and why would I want to create one?
>
>

An opening key is a node in a database under which new games are sorted
when they are imported. This node is a move in a variant, for instance, a
special
variant under Scheveningen. If you want to check what new games have been
played in this very variant, you simply click on the key and all the
relevant games
appear. The opening keys could constitute a player's opening repertoire.
They
can be presented elegantly, in the form of a tree in TascBase, or as ECO
codes in
ChessBase. The keys could be furnished with comments, including the regular
chess notation, which improves the overview of variations. If a certain key
is provided with a question k, then you know that this is a move that
can
be refuted. Modern Chess Assistant versions have key functionality in
their tree,
but TascBase is probably the best example. Bookup and ChessBase simply
make trees out of game lines, and it's a different thing. It seems like
you want a
tree where every node is an opening key, so you should choose TascBase,
then.
At least, try it out. Don't do this on paper, it's hopeless. Transfer it
to paper later,
wuhen you are ready.

Mats
--
Anv�nder Operas banbrytande e-postklient: http://www.opera.com/m2/

Date: 28 Nov 2006 20:25:59
From: M Winther
Subject: Re: Newbie looking for data structure

Den 2006-11-28 15:24:56 skrev Clueless Newie <[email protected] >:

>
>
>
> I am developing my knowledge of a particular opening, and have
> been making notes in the form of a tree -- if I make such and such
> a move, my opponent has these possible replies, and my answer to
> each is such and such.
>
> The tree is getting too large/complex to keep track of in a simple
> text file and has duplication (the same position arrived at by
> different move sequences.)
>
> Is there some standard format for recording an opening book that I
> can use? Ideally it would be human-readable, but I will invest in
> a program if that's the only way. Any references would be appreciated.
>
>

This is a Sisuphys work. There are so many possible variants that it will
never end. You *must* have a program that creates a tree automatically.
They all create trees now, but the best tree function is provided by
TascBase.
It takes care of transpositions automatically (moves leading to same
variant).
In TascBase 2.1 transpositions are coloured differently, otherwise you can
view them in the tree by pressing Ctrl-T.
http://www.chessaustraliaocom.au/index.cfm?p=order&o=TASC-BASE&t=retail

TascBase is both for DOS and Windows. If you have a normal sized screen
it works fine in WinXP, too, otherwise you'll have to run it under DosBOX.
It an enormous waste of time and energy to do this by hand. You must have
a database.

Mats

Date: 29 Nov 2006 07:21:14
From: Clueless Newie
Subject: Re: Newbie looking for data structure

M Winther wrote:
>
>skrev Clueless Newie:
>
>> I am developing my knowledge of a particular opening, and have
>> been making notes in the form of a tree -- if I make such and such
>> a move, my opponent has these possible replies, and my answer to
>> each is such and such.
>>
>> The tree is getting too large/complex to keep track of in a simple
>> text file and has duplication (the same position arrived at by
>> different move sequences.)
>>
>> Is there some standard format for recording an opening book that I
>> can use? Ideally it would be human-readable, but I will invest in
>> a program if that's the only way. Any references would be appreciated.
>
>This is a Sisuphys work. There are so many possible variants that
>it will never end. You *must* have a program that creates a tree
>automatically. They all create trees now, but the best tree function
>is provided by TascBase. It takes care of transpositions automatically
>(moves leading to same variant). In TascBase 2.1 transpositions are
>coloured differently, otherwise you can view them in the tree by pressing
>Ctrl-T.
>
>http://www.chessaustraliaocom.au/index.cfm?p=order&o=TASC-BASE&t=retail
>
>TascBase is both for DOS and Windows. If you have a normal sized
>screen it works fine in WinXP, too, otherwise you'll have to run
>it under DosBOX. It an enormous waste of time and energy to do this
>by hand. You must have a database.

That makes a lot of sense.

Does the resulting TascBase database (or something it exports to)
conform to any sort of standard, or will I be tied to TascBase
forever because of a propriatary format? It looks like I will be
building my "personal opening book" for many years, and who knows
whether I may switch to Mac OS X or Linux some day?

What would be ideal is something that a program generates but
a human can read.

Date: 29 Nov 2006 12:44:56
From: M Winther
Subject: Re: Newbie looking for data structure

Den 2006-11-29 08:21:14 skrev Clueless Newie <[email protected] >:

>
>
>
> M Winther wrote:
>>
>> skrev Clueless Newie:
>>
>>> I am developing my knowledge of a particular opening, and have
>>> been making notes in the form of a tree -- if I make such and such
>>> a move, my opponent has these possible replies, and my answer to
>>> each is such and such.
>>>
>>> The tree is getting too large/complex to keep track of in a simple
>>> text file and has duplication (the same position arrived at by
>>> different move sequences.)
>>>
>>> Is there some standard format for recording an opening book that I
>>> can use? Ideally it would be human-readable, but I will invest in
>>> a program if that's the only way. Any references would be appreciated.
>>
>> This is a Sisuphys work. There are so many possible variants that
>> it will never end. You *must* have a program that creates a tree
>> automatically. They all create trees now, but the best tree function
>> is provided by TascBase. It takes care of transpositions automatically
>> (moves leading to same variant). In TascBase 2.1 transpositions are
>> coloured differently, otherwise you can view them in the tree by
>> pressing
>> Ctrl-T.
>>
>> http://www.chessaustraliaocom.au/index.cfm?p=order&o=TASC-BASE&t=retail
>>
>> TascBase is both for DOS and Windows. If you have a normal sized
>> screen it works fine in WinXP, too, otherwise you'll have to run
>> it under DosBOX. It an enormous waste of time and energy to do this
>> by hand. You must have a database.
>
> That makes a lot of sense.
>
> Does the resulting TascBase database (or something it exports to)
> conform to any sort of standard, or will I be tied to TascBase
> forever because of a propriatary format? It looks like I will be
> building my "personal opening book" for many years, and who knows
> whether I may switch to Mac OS X or Linux some day?
>
> What would be ideal is something that a program generates but
> a human can read.
>
>

TascBase can export its tree to text format, but it is rather awkward,
with notation like b1c3, etc. It is always a problem with the format
regardless of which database you buy. On the other hand, if you buy
CA2 or TB2 for Dos, then you can purchase a cheap laptop on ebay, and
always keep this computer for chess only, regardless if you change
operative system on your main computer. It will always be possible
to buy old computers on ebay, so this should be no problem. These older
databases work fine on old computers. But you have to hurry up, soon
they cannot be bought anymore. 9.90 AUD is very cheap, so even if you
decide to work with another software, it's no loss.

And when you've worked with the database for a year or so, and decided
what variants you will use, then you can simply draw the tree from the
screen
and move it to paper. But you must work with a database, otherwise it
takes too long time.

If you choose TascBase, then it's preferable to have an earlier Windows
version
than XP, and remember to set VideoMode=SVGA in the ini file (this trick
is not documented in the manual for the 2.1 version). In this way you will
see more of the tree at one time.

CA 2.0 for DOS (and WIndows) is also very attractive. However, this
database is not designed for making your own keys in the tree (that is
designing your own variants). This database is more for studying
grandmaster games. But this could be ideal for many amateurs who
don't want to devote too much time on chess study.

Mats

Mats