Is there a forced winning line for black?

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Date: 21 Jan 2007 19:16:28
From: Dave Smith
Subject: Is there a forced winning line for black?

6k1/p4p1p/5p2/8/8/P6P/3r2P1/1R5K b - - 0 35

Date: 23 Jan 2007 02:58:14
From: Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (Wlod)
Subject: Re: Is there a forced winning line for black?

[email protected] has provided interesting links:

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forsyth-Edwards_Notation
>
> Any decent chess program should be able to accept this format.
>
> As for a website, you can try here:
>
> http://www.shredderchess.com/online-chess/online-databases/endgame-database.html
>

At first this website mad me happy.
Then I tried position:

FEN: 8/2kpp3/8/8/8/8/2PK2P1/8 w

and the program claims that
white is lost in at the most 21 moves,
and in 9 moves after playing kd2-c3.
However, after executing this kd2-c3
move, the program in the new position
claims that it is a draw. (It claims a draw
also after some other moves by white).

This contradiction proves that
the program has a bug.

Best regards,

Wlod

Date: 23 Jan 2007 12:15:30
From: Tony M
Subject: Re: Is there a forced winning line for black?

On 23 Jan 2007 02:58:14 -0800, "Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (Wlod)"
<[email protected] > wrote:

>[email protected] has provided interesting links:
>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forsyth-Edwards_Notation
>>
>> Any decent chess program should be able to accept this format.
>>
>> As for a website, you can try here:
>>
>> http://www.shredderchess.com/online-chess/online-databases/endgame-database.html
>>
>
>At first this website mad me happy.
>Then I tried position:
>
>FEN: 8/2kpp3/8/8/8/8/2PK2P1/8 w
>
>and the program claims that
>white is lost in at the most 21 moves,
>and in 9 moves after playing kd2-c3.
>However, after executing this kd2-c3
>move, the program in the new position
>claims that it is a draw. (It claims a draw
>also after some other moves by white).
>
>This contradiction proves that
>the program has a bug.
>
>Best regards,
>
> Wlod

I copied and pasted your position to the Shredder web site, and it
claimed that all moves resulting from this position were drawn. When
I removed the g pawn, then the site claimed that the position was a
loss in 21 for white.

However, I produced bugs, similar to what you experienced, by clicking
on and changing the position very quickly. It seems to me that the
Java applet caches the results of tablebase searches, and if one
clicks too quickly the wrong search results somehow get associated
with the wrong position. Refreshing the page clears up these
problems.

Tony

Date: 22 Jan 2007 23:21:34
From: help bot
Subject: Re: Is there a forced winning line for black?

Sanny wrote:
> Dave Smith wrote:
> > 6k1/p4p1p/5p2/8/8/P6P/3r2P1/1R5K b - - 0 35
>
> How to look this position on the computer. Is there any site where I
> can input above board position and it shows me the real chess position.

Good question, Sanny. This is Forsythe notation (I may have
spelled that incorrectly), and it goes something along these lines:

six (empty squares on the bottom rank), White King on f1(?)

a White pawn on a2, then four empty squares, White pawn again,

and so forth. To me, it is a bit confusing, but the idea is that it
requires
somewhat fewer characters to represent a chess position than the old
style notation. I suppose at one time this saving of characters was
important, but now I don't really see the advantage, except of course
to those few who use this extensively.

-- help bot

Date: 22 Jan 2007 22:37:31
From: Sanny
Subject: I got the Solution

Dave Smith wrote:
> 6k1/p4p1p/5p2/8/8/P6P/3r2P1/1R5K b - - 0 35

After looking the Fen diagram at
http://www.shredderchess.com/online-chess/online-databases/endgame-database.html

I understood what the position is.

It is black move
So Black moves

R-a2

In reply white has two options 1. R-b8+ Then black moves K-g7.

2. R-f1 Then again White plays K-g7.

It keeps pressure on a3 and advances other three pawns. And can win by
advancing extra pawn to Queen.

I am not great player as I easlily get beaten by Beginner Level at:
http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

But This is what I conclude from quick analysis. Being a pawn up is a
good Advantage.

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

Date: 22 Jan 2007 12:37:16
From:
Subject: Re: Is there a forced winning line for black?

Sanny wrote:
> Dave Smith wrote:
> > 6k1/p4p1p/5p2/8/8/P6P/3r2P1/1R5K b - - 0 35
>
> How to look this position on the computer. Is there any site where I
> can input above board position and it shows me the real chess position.
>
> Thanks
> Sanny
>
> Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

This is a standard format for notating a chess position in text called
"Forsyth-Edwards Notation" or "FEN".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forsyth-Edwards_Notation

Any decent chess program should be able to accept this format.

As for a website, you can try here:
http://www.shredderchess.com/online-chess/online-databases/endgame-database.html

This site will take any position with up to 6 men on the board and show
you the result after best play.

jm

Date: 21 Jan 2007 22:46:48
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: Is there a forced winning line for black?

Dave Smith wrote:
> 6k1/p4p1p/5p2/8/8/P6P/3r2P1/1R5K b - - 0 35

How to look this position on the computer. Is there any site where I
can input above board position and it shows me the real chess position.

Thanks
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

Date: 23 Jan 2007 12:13:29
From: Tony M
Subject: Re: Is there a forced winning line for black?

On 21 Jan 2007 22:46:48 -0800, "Sanny" <[email protected] > wrote:

>
>Dave Smith wrote:
>> 6k1/p4p1p/5p2/8/8/P6P/3r2P1/1R5K b - - 0 35
>
>How to look this position on the computer. Is there any site where I
>can input above board position and it shows me the real chess position.
>
>Thanks
>Sanny
>
>Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

I copied and pasted your position to the Shredder web site, and it
claimed that all moves resulting from this position were drawn. When
I removed the g pawn, then the site claimed that the position was a
loss in 21 for white.

However, I produced bugs, similar to what you experienced, by clicking
on and changing the position very quickly. It seems to me that the
Java applet caches the results of tablebase searches, and if one
clicks too quickly the wrong search results somehow get associated
with the wrong position. Refreshing the page clears up these
problems.

Tony

Date: 22 Jan 2007 21:07:04
From: Dave (from the UK)
Subject: Re: Is there a forced winning line for black?

Sanny wrote:
> Dave Smith wrote:
>
>>6k1/p4p1p/5p2/8/8/P6P/3r2P1/1R5K b - - 0 35
>
>
> How to look this position on the computer. Is there any site where I
> can input above board position and it shows me the real chess position.
>
> Thanks
> Sanny
>
> Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
>

http://chessdb.sourceforge.net/

will do it on your own computer.

Black has a king, 4 pawns and a rook - white a king, 3 pawns and a rook.

--
Dave (from the UK)

Please note my email address changes periodically to avoid spam.
It is always of the form: [email protected]
Hitting reply will work for a few months only - later set it manually.

http://chessdb.sourceforge.net/ - a Free open-source Chess Database

Date: 22 Jan 2007 17:19:12
From: Simon Krahnke
Subject: Re: Is there a forced winning line for black?

* Sanny <[email protected] > (07:46) schrieb:

> Dave Smith wrote:
>> 6k1/p4p1p/5p2/8/8/P6P/3r2P1/1R5K b - - 0 35
>
> How to look this position on the computer. Is there any site where I
> can input above board position and it shows me the real chess position.

What about www.getclub.com?

mfg, simon .... l