How GetClub Chess game developed so Strong.

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Date: 07 Mar 2007 22:37:05
From: Sanny
Subject: How GetClub Chess game developed so Strong.

GetClub game speed and strength have kept improving because of good
players playing it and beating it. But many players are not playing it
thinking it to be as weak as it was 3 months back.

Try a game: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

GetClub Game was designed in May 2006

Jun 2006 its all illegal Moves were Removed.
July 2006 it was playing good enough to complete a game.
Aug 2006 Game Strength was increased
Sep 2006 Opening was added
Oct 2006 New rules were added
Nov 2006 It played taking long time 5-10 min/ move
Dec 2006 Time was reduced to maximum 1 min/ move
Jan 2007 Great Speed Jump done
Feb 2007 Game strength was increased

So one can see every month there was a bit improvement in the game. A
player who had played say in Nov 2006 has not seen the improvements
made later and he still believes the game is weak despite so many
improvements.

Still many improvements are needed but I am not getting much
suggestions out of the Box. Good players let me know if you can still
beat it's Beginner & Easy Levels.

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

Date: 21 Mar 2007 02:13:49
From: help bot
Subject: Re: GetClub Chess Stronger again.

On 21, 4:00 am, "Sanny" <[email protected] > wrote:

> > Seriously, Sanny, I appreciate your deleting
> > that game so I can complete a game against
> > one of the weaker levels in, perhaps, a single
> > day. I have had several games where I was
> > winning and a change was made and they
> > were deleted, and I have also had several
> > where I did not like my position at all but was
> > saved by a random deletion.
>
> Games with Advance level are deleted as it takes lot of time and the
> player might not be able to complete it. Player has only one option to
> Resign which will reduce his ratings.
>
> Games that are a week old are usually deleted As the player may be
> facing difficulty in completing that game.

One of the things I have noticed is that many of
the critics here who say they beat Sanny's program
(like a carrot?) turn out to be playing unrated games.

Obviously, such games are not recorded and there
is no penalty therefore for losing, so anybody can
play several such games and then come here to
*selectively* report on their best wins. These guys
may think they are clever, but really it is quite
obvious.

--------

When you adopt a policy of deleting games as
described above, there arises a new strategy: not
continuing a game where the position is lost. It
seems plain to me that this possibility can give
the human opponent a big edge over the computer,
since it is not going to refuse to continue any
game on account of a bad position. In sum, the
results will end up being skewed in favor of the
dishonest human players, and against the program
while leaving more honest players out in the cold.

So what can be done here? One possibility is
rather than deleting games at random, to set a
policy of adjudication. Such a policy could, most
unfortunately, favor the human players again, for
any position they know to be a technical win need
not be completed, erasing the risk of messing up
this part of a game. On the other hand, it could
happen that the program is awarded a win in a
position it could never convert on its own in a
million years... .

-- help bot

Date: 21 Mar 2007 01:00:25
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: GetClub Chess Stronger again.

On 21, 11:41 am, "help bot" <[email protected] > wrote:
> On 21, 1:50 am, "Sanny" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > Haha! I was easily killing your Avanced level, but
> > > unable to finish the game because my battery ran
> > > out of juice (again). So now this crush is deleted,
> > > and we are back to the slowness problem. OTOH,
> > > I admit there have been times when I had an
> > > undesirable position and the games got deleted, so
> > > it is no big deal.
>
> > Yesterday an improvement in strength was done which made it slow. So I
> > deleted your game with Advance level as it will never finish.
>
> > But today we have again got back to speed. So now you may play with
> > higher levels.
>
> Hmm. Not a bad strategy. If your best level is
> getting mauled, make an "improvement" and
> delete the game. But if it should happen to be
> doing okay, leave things as they are. ;>D
>
> Seriously, Sanny, I appreciate your deleting
> that game so I can complete a game against
> one of the weaker levels in, perhaps, a single
> day. I have had several games where I was
> winning and a change was made and they
> were deleted, and I have also had several
> where I did not like my position at all but was
> saved by a random deletion.
>

Games with Advance level are deleted as it takes lot of time and the
player might not be able to complete it. Player has only one option to
Resign which will reduce his ratings.

Games that are a week old are usually deleted As the player may be
facing difficulty in completing that game.

Play a game with Master Level and tell if you find any improvement in
it's play style.

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
You can play Chess with Computer as well as Human opponents here.
And your Games are Recorded. http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

Date: 21 Mar 2007 09:32:17
From: Kenneth Sloan
Subject: Re: GetClub Chess Stronger again.

Sanny wrote:

>>
>
> Games with Advance level are deleted as it takes lot of time and the
> player might not be able to complete it. Player has only one option to
> Resign which will reduce his ratings.
>
> Games that are a week old are usually deleted As the player may be
> facing difficulty in completing that game.

Well, "duh!". How can you complete a game in only a week when the
program takes hours to make each move?

Congratulations on building the perfect correspondence chess computer.

--
Kenneth Sloan [email protected]
Computer and Information Sciences +1-205-932-2213
University of Alabama at Birmingham FAX +1-205-934-5473
Birmingham, AL 35294-1170 http://www.cis.uab.edu/sloan/

Date: 20 Mar 2007 23:41:01
From: help bot
Subject: Re: GetClub Chess Stronger again.

On 21, 1:50 am, "Sanny" <[email protected] > wrote:

> > Haha! I was easily killing your Avanced level, but
> > unable to finish the game because my battery ran
> > out of juice (again). So now this crush is deleted,
> > and we are back to the slowness problem. OTOH,
> > I admit there have been times when I had an
> > undesirable position and the games got deleted, so
> > it is no big deal.
>
> Yesterday an improvement in strength was done which made it slow. So I
> deleted your game with Advance level as it will never finish.
>
> But today we have again got back to speed. So now you may play with
> higher levels.

Hmm. Not a bad strategy. If your best level is
getting mauled, make an "improvement" and
delete the game. But if it should happen to be
doing okay, leave things as they are. ; >D

Seriously, Sanny, I appreciate your deleting
that game so I can complete a game against
one of the weaker levels in, perhaps, a single
day. I have had several games where I was
winning and a change was made and they
were deleted, and I have also had several
where I did not like my position at all but was
saved by a random deletion.

One night this week there was a very heavy
fog where I live, and my internet connection
was working okay from home. But most of
the time I have to go down the street, and
then my battery requires constant recharging
or I have to just call it a day. This is really
the only reason I cannot finish against your
Advance level, for when it comes to patience,
I have plenty.

-- help bot

Date: 20 Mar 2007 22:50:46
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: GetClub Chess Stronger again.

> Haha! I was easily killing your Avanced level, but
> unable to finish the game because my battery ran
> out of juice (again). So now this crush is deleted,
> and we are back to the slowness problem. OTOH,
> I admit there have been times when I had an
> undesirable position and the games got deleted, so
> it is no big deal.
>

Yesterday an improvement in strength was done which made it slow. So I
deleted your game with Advance level as it will never finish.

But today we have again got back to speed. So now you may play with
higher levels.

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
You can play Chess with Computer as well as Human opponents here.
And your Games are Recorded. http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

Date: 20 Mar 2007 16:37:45
From: help bot
Subject: Re: GetClub Chess Stronger again.

On 20, 7:56 am, "Sanny" <[email protected] > wrote:

> Soon you will find a much stronger opponent. The game strength has
> been increased but again it will take a little more time per move but
> then the results will be a better move.

Haha! I was easily killing your Avanced level, but
unable to finish the game because my battery ran
out of juice (again). So now this crush is deleted,
and we are back to the slowness problem. OTOH,
I admit there have been times when I had an
undesirable position and the games got deleted, so
it is no big deal.

I noticed a big pick up in playing activity at the
site when you made the program play quickly (but
it was making weak moves). The problem is, few
if any are going to pay money to play when there
are alternatives with no significant issues -- except
if they want to see what it feels like to again beat a
computer easily! This, my friend, is where you
have the ket cornered; there is no competition
here these days, and having this ket niche all
to yourself, you could make millions! : >D

-- help bot

Date: 20 Mar 2007 04:56:02
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: GetClub Chess Stronger again.

> Sanny claimed that downloading the latest version
> of Java would make his program beat us like a carrot,
> but after installing I couldn't detect any substantial
> difference in strength. (Maybe I'm so good that only
> giving Bobby Fischer remote-control of the moves
> would make any perceptible difference to me?) :>D
>

Soon you will find a much stronger opponent. The game strength has
been increased but again it will take a little more time per move but
then the results will be a better move.

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
You can play Chess with Computer as well as Human opponents here.
And your Games are Recorded. http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

Date: 20 Mar 2007 01:49:11
From: help bot
Subject: Re: GetClub Chess Stronger again.

On 20, 3:26 am, "Sanny" <[email protected] > wrote:

> I play on Desktop which is 2.Ghz Pentium IV and it plays without
> problem, Yes if I open 2-3 other sites then it slows down.
>
> Remember when you play with a downloaded Game only that window is
> open, Here you are doing multi tasking like playing, writing to
> google, opening a word file and so on.

Sanny, when I open two or three or even six or eight
"tabs" (not windows) in Firefox there doesn't seem to
be any serious slowdown. None of these are running
processor-intensive programs like Excel or a graphics
program -- they are just displaying different Web sites.
But even if I shut down all the other tabs and just play
your chess program, the fan will quickly kick on and
my battery power will drop more rapidly than normal.

> For best whenever you play, Start new game in new window. If your
> computer is working for more than three hours close and restart
> computer before you play.
>
> Laptops usually burn quickly as they are too compact but Desktop are
> better place to play as they have a big fan to cool the CPU.

Next time I buy a notebook, battery power will be
high on my list (along with more RAM). I will also
look very closely at the sturdiness of the case,
especially where the display panel joins the base,
for this is where my current machine is falling apart.
Oh, and I want one more thing: Wi Max!

-- help bot

Date: 20 Mar 2007 01:40:21
From: help bot
Subject: Re: GetClub Chess Stronger again.

On 20, 3:14 am, Ralf Callenberg <[email protected] > wrote:
> 20.03.2007 07:58, help bot:
>
> > This makes sense. But before you can play, you
> > have to allow a couple of pop-ups: one is the log on
> > screen, and the other is where you select your
> > opponent.
>
> Those popups are applet-windows, they don't get blocked by Firefox'
> blocker, which blocks mainly popups generated by JavaScript.

Hmm. I thought my "Norton Confidential" had control
of my pop-ups. At RedHotPawn, for instance, default had
pop-ups blocked and I made the mistake of un-blocking
them. Then I had to figure out how exactly to get it back
the way it was.

> > His program does not work on my computer unless
> > I am connected, even though it will continue to analyze
> > ad infinitum if I disconnect. The point is to make actual
> > headway.
>
> OK, it works if you are playing unrated games without logging in.

Why would you want to do that? Those games
don't get recorded for posterity to see, ridicule,
and forever toss back in your face. Wait... now
I get it!

> Otherwise it indeed doesn't. But I doubt that there is a lot of
> communication going on, just the moves. That shouldn't bring down the
> whole application.

A long time back, my internet connection would
often time out because there was so little going
back and forth. I often read my emails while
playing, and some of these go on forever before
I can finish and delete them (which causes a
transmission). More recently, I think he has made
the transmissions more frequent, probably because
of complaints about disconnects. Anyway, the
program is playing *much faster* right now.

> > Not on my machine. I have a typical notebook
> > computer, and am using the latest version of
> > Firefox. Perhaps I would give IE a try,
>
> The browser doesn't make a big difference. The question is: which Java
> version is used?

Sanny claimed that downloading the latest version
of Java would make his program beat us like a carrot,
but after installing I couldn't detect any substantial
difference in strength. (Maybe I'm so good that only
giving Bobby Fischer remote-control of the moves
would make any perceptible difference to me?) : >D

-- help bot

Date: 20 Mar 2007 00:26:43
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: GetClub Chess Stronger again.

On 20, 11:28 am, Ralf Callenberg <[email protected] > wrote:
> 20.03.2007 06:14, help bot:
>
> > Last night I typed out a long posting in which I
> > tried to "enlighten" Sanny as to a major defect
> > recently introduced, which in effect, opened up
> > a new window or tab about every ten seconds.
>
> Two words: popup blocker.
>
> > More to the point, you cannot make headway
> > in the game unless and until the two computers
> > make communication, to register that a move
> > has been completed.
>
> I was talking about playing against Sanny's computer program. Of course,
> if you play against other users on his site you have to be connected. To
> play against his program, it is not necessary.
>
> > This of course means that
> > a poor internet connection is in itself sufficient to
> > slow things to a crawl.
>
> No, the skillful programmer of this thing was sufficent to achieve this
> feature.
>
> (Why do you suppose I
>
> > am a mere hundred points ahead of the rest of
> > the pack? It's because I can hardly play at all!)
>
> You think, you are the only one? It is slow for everybody, no matter how
> fast the internet connection is.
>
> > You obviously have no clue as to how Sanny's
> > program actually works on my machine.
>
> Again: it is slow as hell on about any machine. Maybe your notebook has
> not enough RAM or not enought CPU-power to deal with this magnificent
> piece of software.
>
> Greetings,
> Ralf

I play on Desktop which is 2.Ghz Pentium IV and it plays without
problem, Yes if I open 2-3 other sites then it slows down.

Remember when you play with a downloaded Game only that window is
open, Here you are doing multi tasking like playing, writing to
google, opening a word file and so on.

For best whenever you play, Start new game in new window. If your
computer is working for more than three hours close and restart
computer before you play.

Laptops usually burn quickly as they are too compact but Desktop are
better place to play as they have a big fan to cool the CPU.

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
You can play Chess with Computer as well as Human opponents here.
And your Games are Recorded. http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

Date: 19 Mar 2007 23:58:16
From: help bot
Subject: Re: GetClub Chess Stronger again.

On 20, 2:28 am, Ralf Callenberg <[email protected] > wrote:

> 20.03.2007 06:14, help bot:
>
> > Last night I typed out a long posting in which I
> > tried to "enlighten" Sanny as to a major defect
> > recently introduced, which in effect, opened up
> > a new window or tab about every ten seconds.
>
> Two words: popup blocker.

This makes sense. But before you can play, you
have to allow a couple of pop-ups: one is the log on
screen, and the other is where you select your
opponent. After this a pop-up blocker should do
the trick. Note: when I played tonight, the problem
had already disappeared or been fixed.

> > More to the point, you cannot make headway
> > in the game unless and until the two computers
> > make communication, to register that a move
> > has been completed.
>
> I was talking about playing against Sanny's computer program.

Well, I suppose I was talking about the moon and
the stars, and how they look really cool at night --
until I start growing really hairy and my teeth turn
into giant fangs! LOL

> Of course, if you play against other users on his site
> you have to be connected. To
> play against his program, it is not necessary.

His program does not work on my computer unless
I am connected, even though it will continue to analyze
ad infinitum if I disconnect. The point is to make actual
headway.

> > This of course means that
> > a poor internet connection is in itself sufficient to
> > slow things to a crawl.
>
> No, the skillful programmer of this thing was sufficent to achieve this
> feature.

Not on my machine. I have a typical notebook
computer, and am using the latest version of
Firefox. Perhaps I would give IE a try, but it
boots up with zero knowledge of my many
favorite Web sites or passwords, which is a
pain as I need something to do while the chess
program "thinks" (you almost have to redefine the
word for Sanny's program).

> > (Why do you suppose I
> > am a mere hundred points ahead of the rest of
> > the pack? It's because I can hardly play at all!)
>
> You think, you are the only one?

I may not be the only one, but it is sufficient
that I am the *best* one. Look at the list of top
players on the main screen: I am the funny-
looking guy at the top, with the hands which
open and close. ; >D

> It is slow for everybody, no matter how
> fast the internet connection is.

True, but there is a HUGE difference between not
being able to play in the absence of great patience,
and not being able to play, period. Most people
can minimize the chess window and find something
else to occupy their time, and so can I, at times.

> > You obviously have no clue as to how Sanny's
> > program actually works on my machine.
>
> Again: it is slow as hell on about any machine.

Changing the subject. I never claimed it wasn't
slow on other people's machines; what I wrote was
that on my machine, it is not even playable at times.

> Maybe your notebook has not enough RAM or not
> enought CPU-power to deal with this magnificent
> piece of software.

Nah. It used to work okay, but then my internet
connection somehow worsened. If I go down the
street to a public WiFi spot, the connection trouble
magically disappears and is replaced with my
battery running out of juice. Right now I am typing
this from home, which for some reason, is working
right now. Maybe it's the dense fog or something.

-- help bot

Date: 20 Mar 2007 08:14:39
From: Ralf Callenberg
Subject: Re: GetClub Chess Stronger again.

20.03.2007 07:58, help bot:

> This makes sense. But before you can play, you
> have to allow a couple of pop-ups: one is the log on
> screen, and the other is where you select your
> opponent.

Those popups are applet-windows, they don't get blocked by Firefox'
blocker, which blocks mainly popups generated by JavaScript.

> His program does not work on my computer unless
> I am connected, even though it will continue to analyze
> ad infinitum if I disconnect. The point is to make actual
> headway.

OK, it works if you are playing unrated games without logging in.
Otherwise it indeed doesn't. But I doubt that there is a lot of
communication going on, just the moves. That shouldn't bring down the
whole application.

>
> Not on my machine. I have a typical notebook
> computer, and am using the latest version of
> Firefox. Perhaps I would give IE a try,

The browser doesn't make a big difference. The question is: which Java
version is used?

Greetings,
Ralf

Date: 19 Mar 2007 22:14:15
From: help bot
Subject: Re: GetClub Chess Stronger again.

On 20, 12:35 am, "Ralf Callenberg" <[email protected] > wrote:
> On 20, 4:18 am, "help bot" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Right now, I am in the midst of a game against
> > Sanny's middle level, but not making much headway
> > because of my poor internet connection and its
> > slothfulness.
>
> The slowliness of the program has nothing to do with the internet
> connection. Once the applet has been started it runs completely on
> your machine (only slight communication with the server if at all).

Ooooh -- a grotesque error!

Last night I typed out a long posting in which I
tried to "enlighten" Sanny as to a major defect
recently introduced, which in effect, opened up
a new window or tab about every ten seconds.
This post never went through, but the problem
was sufficient to keep me from trying to finish
the game or start another.

More to the point, you cannot make headway
in the game unless and until the two computers
make communication, to register that a move
has been completed. This of course means that
a poor internet connection is in itself sufficient to
slow things to a crawl. (Why do you suppose I
am a mere hundred points ahead of the rest of
the pack? It's because I can hardly play at all!)

> Try it out: during the game deactivate your internet connection. You
> will see, that the game continues.

LOL! I have no need to deactivate my connection
during play, for this is constantly occurring -- against
my will -- when I play from home. So I tend to play
where I have a decent connection, which is why I
cannot recharge my battery at will. When the
battery runs down, I am out of luck. If I stay home
so I can charge the battery at will, I can't make
much headway. By headway I mean actually
completing moves so that the game progresses
toward its logical conclusion (i.e. a win for me!).
You obviously have no clue as to how Sanny's
program actually works on my machine.

Right now I am doing well, as the program has
been sped up to many times its normal speed.
Yet in a few moments, I will once again run out
of power and have to stop mid-game (I'm winning
easily vs. Advanced level).

-- help bot

Date: 20 Mar 2007 07:28:45
From: Ralf Callenberg
Subject: Re: GetClub Chess Stronger again.

20.03.2007 06:14, help bot:

> Last night I typed out a long posting in which I
> tried to "enlighten" Sanny as to a major defect
> recently introduced, which in effect, opened up
> a new window or tab about every ten seconds.

Two words: popup blocker.

> More to the point, you cannot make headway
> in the game unless and until the two computers
> make communication, to register that a move
> has been completed.

I was talking about playing against Sanny's computer program. Of course,
if you play against other users on his site you have to be connected. To
play against his program, it is not necessary.

> This of course means that
> a poor internet connection is in itself sufficient to
> slow things to a crawl.

No, the skillful programmer of this thing was sufficent to achieve this
feature.

(Why do you suppose I
> am a mere hundred points ahead of the rest of
> the pack? It's because I can hardly play at all!)

You think, you are the only one? It is slow for everybody, no matter how
fast the internet connection is.

> You obviously have no clue as to how Sanny's
> program actually works on my machine.

Again: it is slow as hell on about any machine. Maybe your notebook has
not enough RAM or not enought CPU-power to deal with this magnificent
piece of software.

Greetings,
Ralf

Date: 19 Mar 2007 21:35:37
From: Ralf Callenberg
Subject: Re: GetClub Chess Stronger again.

On 20, 4:18 am, "help bot" <[email protected] > wrote:

> Right now, I am in the midst of a game against
> Sanny's middle level, but not making much headway
> because of my poor internet connection and its
> slothfulness.

The slowliness of the program has nothing to do with the internet
connection. Once the applet has been started it runs completely on
your machine (only slight communication with the server if at all).
Try it out: during the game deactivate your internet connection. You
will see, that the game continues.

Greetings,
Ralf

Date: 19 Mar 2007 20:18:59
From: help bot
Subject: Re: GetClub Chess Stronger again.

On 19, 6:59 am, David Richerby <[email protected] >
wrote:

> > Well, to a very strong player increasing the strength of play might
> > seem like a big issue; yet for the average player who has never
> > competed, it might be overkill. Is it really necessary for the
> > program to win every game?
>
> No but Sanny often boasts here about how strong his program is. As
> such, I infer that writing a strong program is one of his (team's)
> goals. As it is, the program demonstrates mainly that Sanny's
> programmers aren't very good and that Sanny himself has little
> comprehension of chess.

Having a goal of writing a powerful chess program
does not mean that failing to achieve that goal is a
big deal. As far as I can see, the only harm done
is twofold: 1) Sanny's claims are not backed by his
results; and 2) a few very strong chess players such
as those who seem to predominate here will give
negative feedback. The first of these two can be
blamed, not on the weakness of the program, but on
its lousy PR man, Sanny. : >D

Right now, I am in the midst of a game against
Sanny's middle level, but not making much headway
because of my poor internet connection and its
slothfulness. Out of the three or so moves it has
made so far, none were blunders and the game
looks even-Steven as I deliberately played to take
it out of book quickly.

-- help bot

Date: 19 Mar 2007 05:01:25
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: GetClub Chess Stronger again.

> No but Sanny often boasts here about how strong his program is. As
> such, I infer that writing a strong program is one of his (team's)
> goals. As it is, the program demonstrates mainly that Sanny's
> programmers aren't very good and that Sanny himself has little
> comprehension ofchess.
>

My program is way too fast and stronger. Yesterday again a bit
improvement done.

http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

Play and try to beat it's beginner level and you will see what I am
saying. By the way what is your username Dave? I would like to see
your recorded game to see how good you play.

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

Date: 16 Mar 2007 15:41:03
From: help bot
Subject: Re: GetClub Chess Stronger again.

On 16, 7:02 am, David Richerby <[email protected] >
wrote:

> > If you will look at the actual site you will see that the chess
> > program is but a small part of the total effort by Sanny's team.
>
> Yes but, as I said, a competent programmer should be able to produce a
> program of that strength within a month in their spare time. Since
> Sanny has a whole team of programmers, even only spending some of
> their time on the chess program, they should be able to come up with
> something significantly stronger.

Well, to a very strong player increasing the strength
of play might seem like a big issue; yet for the average
player who has never competed, it might be overkill.
Is it really necessary for the program to win every game?
I think this could actually have a negative impact on the
site's popularity, since not many people really enjoy
losing all the time. Fortunately for me, that will never be
an issue, as I am a "star" at GetClub. ; >D

-- help bot

Date: 19 Mar 2007 10:59:44
From: David Richerby
Subject: Re: GetClub Chess Stronger again.

help bot <[email protected] > wrote:
> David Richerby <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Yes but, as I said, a competent programmer should be able to
>> produce a program of that strength within a month in their spare
>> time. Since Sanny has a whole team of programmers, even only
>> spending some of their time on the chess program, they should be
>> able to come up with something significantly stronger.
>
> Well, to a very strong player increasing the strength of play might
> seem like a big issue; yet for the average player who has never
> competed, it might be overkill. Is it really necessary for the
> program to win every game?

No but Sanny often boasts here about how strong his program is. As
such, I infer that writing a strong program is one of his (team's)
goals. As it is, the program demonstrates mainly that Sanny's
programmers aren't very good and that Sanny himself has little
comprehension of chess.

Dave.

--
David Richerby Natural Beer (TM): it's like a
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ refreshing lager but it's completely
natural!

Date: 22 Mar 2007 00:31:24
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: GetClub Chess Stronger again.

> That does not match my experience.
>

See Recorded Games: http://www.getclub.com/cc/showgame.php?num=10

Look at the recorded games where players are completing 4-5 games with
Master Level in a day.

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
You can play Chess with Computer as well as Human opponents here.
And your Games are Recorded. http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

Date: 15 Mar 2007 23:15:49
From: help bot
Subject: Re: GetClub Chess Stronger again.

On 15, 7:50 am, David Richerby <[email protected] >
wrote:

> Generating a list of legal moves is by no means the hardest part of
> writing a chess program.
>
> I still believe that any competent programmer should be able to
> produce a program at least as good as Sanny's within a month's work,
> in his or her spare time, without copying any code from anyone. The
> strength of Sanny's program would be acceptable for a `first draft',
> so to speak. Given a further eighteen months' work (which is, as I
> recall, about the length of time that Sanny's program has been under
> development), a competent programmer should be able to produce
> something considerably stronger.

If you will look at the actual site you will see
that the chess program is but a small part of
the total effort by Sanny's team. They seem
to have written the site's code itself, along with
numerous other items, just one of which happens
to be a chess program. So it is not accurate to
think their efforts are all focused upon one of the
games; in fact, the product for sale ought to get
the lion's share of their efforts, along with the Web
site, which apparently is not so great either.

-- help bot

Date: 16 Mar 2007 11:02:09
From: David Richerby
Subject: Re: GetClub Chess Stronger again.

help bot <[email protected] > wrote:
> David Richerby <[email protected]> wrote:
>> I still believe that any competent programmer should be able to
>> produce a program at least as good as Sanny's within a month's
>> work, in his or her spare time, without copying any code from
>> anyone. [...]
>
> If you will look at the actual site you will see that the chess
> program is but a small part of the total effort by Sanny's team.

Yes but, as I said, a competent programmer should be able to produce a
program of that strength within a month in their spare time. Since
Sanny has a whole team of programmers, even only spending some of
their time on the chess program, they should be able to come up with
something significantly stronger.

Dave.

--
David Richerby Revolting Accelerated Monk (TM): it's
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ like a man of God but it's twice as
fast and it'll turn your stomach!

Date: 21 Mar 2007 09:13:10
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: GetClub Chess Stronger again.

> > Games with Advance level are deleted as it takes lot of time and the
> > player might not be able to complete it. Player has only one option to
> > Resign which will reduce his ratings.
>
> > Games that are a week old are usually deleted As the player may be
> > facing difficulty in completing that game.
>
> Well, "duh!". How can you complete a game in only a week when the
> program takes hours to make each move?
>

When game strength was increased Higher levels started taking lot of
time again that problem was solved now each level plays quite fast.

Beginner: 10-20 seconds/ move
Easy: 20-30seconds/ move
Normal: 1 min/ move
Master: 2 min/ move
Advance 4-5 min/ move

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
You can play Chess with Computer as well as Human opponents here.
And your Games are Recorded. http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

Date: 21 Mar 2007 12:51:56
From: Kenneth Sloan
Subject: Re: GetClub Chess Stronger again.

Sanny wrote:
>>> Games with Advance level are deleted as it takes lot of time and the
>>> player might not be able to complete it. Player has only one option to
>>> Resign which will reduce his ratings.
>>> Games that are a week old are usually deleted As the player may be
>>> facing difficulty in completing that game.
>> Well, "duh!". How can you complete a game in only a week when the
>> program takes hours to make each move?
>>
>
> When game strength was increased Higher levels started taking lot of
> time again that problem was solved now each level plays quite fast.
>
> Beginner: 10-20 seconds/ move
> Easy: 20-30seconds/ move
> Normal: 1 min/ move
> Master: 2 min/ move
> Advance 4-5 min/ move
>
> Bye
> Sanny
>
> Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
> You can play Chess with Computer as well as Human opponents here.
> And your Games are Recorded. http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
>
>

That does not match my experience.

--
Kenneth Sloan [email protected]
Computer and Information Sciences +1-205-932-2213
University of Alabama at Birmingham FAX +1-205-934-5473
Birmingham, AL 35294-1170 http://www.cis.uab.edu/sloan/

Date: 21 Mar 2007 03:26:29
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: GetClub Chess Stronger again.

> One of the things I have noticed is that many of
> the critics here who say they beat Sanny's program
> (like a carrot?) turn out to be playing unrated games.

As one can't play higher levels without login.

They can play only with Beginner Level for anyone saying he has beaten
higher levels like easy, normal or master then that game will be a
recorded game.

> Obviously, such games are not recorded and there
> is no penalty therefore for losing, so anybody can
> play several such games and then come here to
> *selectively* report on their best wins. These guys
> may think they are clever, but really it is quite
> obvious.

Then he has to stop playing for a week. Any good player will not adopt
this technique.

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
You can play Chess with Computer as well as Human opponents here.
And your Games are Recorded. http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

Date: 15 Mar 2007 23:08:31
From: help bot
Subject: Re: How GetClub Chess game developed so Strong.

On 13, 1:47 pm, Kenneth Sloan <[email protected] > wrote:
> Sanny wrote:
>
> > These are just a rough Estimates
>
> > Here is how I judge. My Rating is arround 1500
>
> Where is this rating published?

If I translated him correctly, he just admitted that
his numbers are all whipped up out of thin air. It's
not unlike alchemy, except that the goal is not to
create gold, but rating points!

Oh heck, why not? If Phil Innes can don a non-
existent title and if Jason Repa has a high IQ,
then why can't Sanny be like them and just make
up his own chess rating? Just make up a special
chart and plot these numbers and titles and such,
and label it "Rgc La-la Land".

-- help bot

Date: 15 Mar 2007 23:02:32
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: How GetClub Chess game developed so Strong.

> What really bugs me is that Sanny keeps lying about the strength of his
> program, and talking about it as if it were something much stronger than
> it is. If Sanny were at all honest about his program, I think he'd find
> a horde of people on the newsgroups willing to help him.
>

My Program plays quite well, Yesterday again 2 bugs were removed which
were spoiling it's calculations.

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

Date: 15 Mar 2007 18:58:19
From: help bot
Subject: Re: How GetClub Chess game developed so Strong.

On 13, 7:20 pm, Ralf Callenberg <[email protected] > wrote:

> > A wiser fellow might just log on to the Web
> > site and replay these games, before placing his
> > "bets".
>
> There doesn't seem to be a possibility to search for games. And I doubt
> it is overly wise to browse through 140 games just to find your two defeats.

[Hey, is it *my fault* that I've only lost two games?]

Wow. And I thought *I* was lazy!

There in fact is an extremely simple way to see the
games I have discussed here. In fact, once you log
on the site, *my name and a link to my games* is at
the top of the list on the main screen. Duh!

Just below somewhere can be found the games of
Taylor Kingston, who unfortunately, played under
multiple aliases. Don't bother looking for the single
loss here, as it apparently contains a score-keeping
error which makes it impossible to replay beyond a
certain (early) point.

Other strong players there are "Bob", who lost but
once, and beyond that you may encounter unknown
aliases of nearly-an-IM Innes, among others. If you
really cared, you might ask him which names he
has played under, but several of them are fairly
self-evident.

> > It
> > also was looking just a few plys deep, whereas
> > now it goes as far and as fast as programs from
> > the late 1980s or so;
>
> One shouldn't forget, that in the late 80s the computers were more than
> hundred times faster than today, RAM increased by a factor of thousand.

Fool that I am, I no longer have any of these older,
far faster and more powerful machines! I had been
duped into believing the new ones were better -- no
doubt by that cad, Bill Gates! I should have stuck
with DOS 2.0.

> And a Mephisto of the mid 80s would wipe the floor with Sanny's baby.

That was a stand-alone chess computer, which
could only do one thing. (Sanny's program runs
while I use the nifty built-in Windows calculator
to figure my latest rating.)

> programs like Genius and
> > Mchess and Chessmaster, all of which were
> > years in the making. The key difference is that
> > those were the work -- at least in part -- of chess
> > experts, and as a result, far superior all around.
>
> But those guys were more or less on their own. Nowadays each student can
> look at the code of different programs with GM strength and find out how
> it can be done.

Right. And this is how your college students no
doubt proceed, yet Sanny's team has undertaken to
reinvent the wheel, so to speak. He has repeatedly
asked for specific moves which are blunders so he
can "hardwire" in a superior replacement, or quick
fix. It is evident (to me anyway) that he has taken
no shortcuts, but wrote this mess of a program from
scratch. Yet he is continually compared to and
measured against commercial chess programs,
which is apples to oranges from one perspective.

Sanny's program is in a way an experiment in
learning to write a decent program from scratch,
with no shortcuts and no copying from others. In
sum, the precise opposite of the approach taken
by the typical college student you described.
Progress will inevitably be slow, and clumsy,
and it has begun from a starting point far below
that of your typical, modern day chess program.

-- help bot

Date: 15 Mar 2007 20:04:42
From: Ron
Subject: Re: How GetClub Chess game developed so Strong.

In article <[email protected] >,
"help bot" <[email protected] > wrote:

> Sanny's program is in a way an experiment in
> learning to write a decent program from scratch,
> with no shortcuts and no copying from others. In
> sum, the precise opposite of the approach taken
> by the typical college student you described.
> Progress will inevitably be slow, and clumsy,
> and it has begun from a starting point far below
> that of your typical, modern day chess program.

And I think we'd all be okay with that ...

It doesn't even bug me that much that Sanny's program is slow, buggy,
makes illegal moves, fails to protect pieces from pawn attacks ... etc,
etc etc.

What really bugs me is that Sanny keeps lying about the strength of his
program, and talking about it as if it were something much stronger than
it is. If Sanny were at all honest about his program, I think he'd find
a horde of people on the newsgroups willing to help him.

But he's not.

-Ron

Date: 15 Mar 2007 06:21:54
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: GetClub Chess Stronger again.

> recall, about the length of time that Sanny's program has been under
> development), a competent programmer should be able to produce
> something considerably stronger.
>

Have you played at GetClub recently?

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

Date: 15 Mar 2007 03:13:02
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: GetClub Chess Stronger again.

> Yes, and if they can do it, why not Sanny? I just want to point out,
> that his excuses are not really valid.
>
>

True I am looking at your Game and ask my programmers to correct the
game

Bye
Sanny

Date: 15 Mar 2007 02:37:39
From: Ralf Callenberg
Subject: Re: GetClub Chess Stronger again.

On 15, 5:32 am, "help bot" <[email protected] > wrote:

> I understand that there are bits of code available which,
> for instance, will generate a list of all the legal moves in
> a given position.

And not only bits of code, but complete programs.

If these flowcharts or subroutines are
> followed, it makes sense that some college students
> could put together a decent chess program in short order.

Yes, and if they can do it, why not Sanny? I just want to point out,
that his excuses are not really valid.

>
> But let's not forget that professional programmers have
> at times churned out chess programs which had no
> opening book whatever, and which might very well play
> 1.Nh3 after an hour's number-crunching, and which
> could be beaten easily after,say, the program wrongly
> sacs a Knight and Bishop for a Rook, a pawn, and a spite
> check for good measure.

When was this? 10, 15 years ago?

> Ralf, under what name did you play these games? Is
> it possible for others to see them, or did you play unrated
> "just in case"?

rca, rank 13. The last game I talked about is the first in the list.

Greetings,
Ralf

Date: 14 Mar 2007 21:32:56
From: help bot
Subject: Re: GetClub Chess Stronger again.

On 14, 8:33 pm, Ralf Callenberg <[email protected] > wrote:

> There are programs on the internet written by college students during
> their holidays which are several hundreds of points stronger than yours.
> I don't compare yours with world class programs as Fritz, Shredder and
> the likes, but with hobby programs one can download for free. And there
> are lots of them around.

I understand that there are bits of code available which,
for instance, will generate a list of all the legal moves in
a given position. If these flowcharts or subroutines are
followed, it makes sense that some college students
could put together a decent chess program in short order.

But let's not forget that professional programmers have
at times churned out chess programs which had no
opening book whatever, and which might very well play
1.Nh3 after an hour's number-crunching, and which
could be beaten easily after,say, the program wrongly
sacs a Knight and Bishop for a Rook, a pawn, and a spite
check for good measure.

> > Play with Easy Level and see for yourself. Now, unlike earlier if you
> > overlook a move you are gone.
>
> I just had a game. I don't see much of a difference. It overlooks simple
> pawn forks, it gives away material left and right. It has no idea about
> king's safety and makes effectless moves on the queen's side, while his
> king's side is under attack. And I won't even talk about that it still
> does not develop its pieces in the opening. All in all I don't feel much
> of resistance when playing against it.
>
> > Calling it weak without playing it do not make sense. Yes you won 2-3
> > months back but now you will not be able to win Easy level so easily.
>
> I played it, it is as easy as a few month ago. You may be a too weak
> player to estimate the strength of your program, but let me tell you -
> for a tournament player your program is far away from being a challenge.

Ralf, under what name did you play these games? Is
it possible for others to see them, or did you play unrated
"just in case"?

The reason I ask is simply that it hasn't done this against
me; not recently I mean. Against me, the program played
fairly decent chess, not unlike what I am (now) used to at
RedHotPawn, facing human players who are under no
particular time pressure. In fact, often times the program's
style is not far from that of a typical average human player.

-- help bot

Date: 15 Mar 2007 11:50:05
From: David Richerby
Subject: Re: GetClub Chess Stronger again.

help bot <[email protected] > wrote:
> Ralf Callenberg <[email protected]> wrote:
>> There are programs on the internet written by college students
>> during their holidays which are several hundreds of points stronger
>> than yours.
>
> I understand that there are bits of code available which,
> for instance, will generate a list of all the legal moves in
> a given position. If these flowcharts or subroutines are
> followed, it makes sense that some college students
> could put together a decent chess program in short order.

Generating a list of legal moves is by no means the hardest part of
writing a chess program.

I still believe that any competent programmer should be able to
produce a program at least as good as Sanny's within a month's work,
in his or her spare time, without copying any code from anyone. The
strength of Sanny's program would be acceptable for a `first draft',
so to speak. Given a further eighteen months' work (which is, as I
recall, about the length of time that Sanny's program has been under
development), a competent programmer should be able to produce
something considerably stronger.

Dave.

--
David Richerby Accelerated Cheese (TM): it's like
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ a brick of cheese but it's twice
as fast!

Date: 14 Mar 2007 21:19:50
From: help bot
Subject: Re: GetClub Chess Stronger again.

On 14, 3:08 am, "Sanny" <[email protected] > wrote:

> Play with Easy Level and see for yourself. Now, unlike earlier if you
> overlook a move you are gone.http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
>
> So if you still think GetClub is weak, before telling me that play a
> game with Easy Level and show me your recorded game that you won.
>
> Calling it weak without playing it do not make sense. Yes you won 2-3
> months back but now you will not be able to win Easy level so easily.
> Yes Beginner can be beaten easily, Then that's your Choice.

Sanny, you have repeatedly posted estimates which
show a difference -- according to you -- of only one
hundred points between levels. In view of this, how
can you imagine that if I were beating your Beginner
level easily and moved up to Easy level, there could
be any real change in the result? It doesn't make
sense, unless you really believe the difference between
levels is much greater, in which case you ought to stop
saying otherwise.

Recently, I played three games -- winning all of them
easily and yet, as I have said, there is some real
resistance now, even on the lower levels. For me to
play the higher levels would require two things:

1) Recharging my notebook computer's battery
repeatedly during play, and...

2) switching back-and-forth between other "tabs" or
windows and your chess program, to fill the time.

This is both distracting and costly, because I can't
plug into an electrical outlet here. Also, it means the
games would likely last many days each, which is far
from ideal.

Nevertheless, those players who think they "know"
how weak your program is now from their early
experiences are fooled by their own lack of respect
for your comments to the contrary; and this is the direct
result of all the times you have posted here announcing
big improvements which really amounted to big efforts
with smallish results. : >D

The truth is, some of these critics are so put off by
the long history of "big improvements" that they will
not even listen to the straight facts, coming from an
unbiased observer (i.e. me). But the biggest problem
is of course the high level of play among many of the
commentators here, and of course the even higher
standard of play in commercial chess programs. In
effect, you are competing against chess experts and
in the case of this writer, a nearly-a-chess-genius
who has been called "a star" at GetClub. Frankly,
your best move is to delete your current chess
program, and cleverly substitute one of the weaker
commercial programs when no one is looking.
Then *remain silent*, and let others gradually come
to realize just how big the "improvements" have
been. Eventually, a few of these players might even
post something about it here. Better still, tell us
you ave decided to "sell" GetClub to someone else,
and never post under that name again. Come back
in a year as, say, "Sammy" or "Freddie". ; >D

-- help bot

.

Date: 14 Mar 2007 00:08:11
From: Sanny
Subject: GetClub Chess Stronger again.

> One of the games finished up with a *nice*
> mating combination which I have seen in some
> published GM game, somewhere. Even so, as
> the combination was rather deep, I mistakenly
> dismissed the possibility and gave my best shot
> at a win. In the other game I also overlooked a
> nasty tactical shot, which Sanny's program did
> not. As I have pointed out before, it has come a
> long way, baby. It is not objective to toss all the
> program's early weaknesses in with its current
> status and judge them as if homogenized milk.

Soon Easy Level & Normal level will give you strong competition. As
now the game has been further improved yesterday.

Play a game at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

> The early program in fact had higher ratings, as
> it had yet to be beaten down by rgc pundits. It
> also was looking just a few plys deep, whereas
> now it goes as far and as fast as programs from
> the late 1980s or so; programs like Genius and
> Mchess and Chessmaster, all of which were
> years in the making. The key difference is that
> those were the work -- at least in part -- ofchess
> experts, and as a result, far superior all around.

Chess Master and Fritz etc has been made 5-10 yrs back so all mistakes
in them has been removed from them while GetClub game is not even an
year old. But still it plays quite strong.

Play with Easy Level and see for yourself. Now, unlike earlier if you
overlook a move you are gone.
http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

So if you still think GetClub is weak, before telling me that play a
game with Easy Level and show me your recorded game that you won.

Calling it weak without playing it do not make sense. Yes you won 2-3
months back but now you will not be able to win Easy level so easily.
Yes Beginner can be beaten easily, Then that's your Choice.

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

Date: 15 Mar 2007 01:33:11
From: Ralf Callenberg
Subject: Re: GetClub Chess Stronger again.

14.03.2007 08:08, Sanny:

>
> Chess Master and Fritz etc has been made 5-10 yrs back so all mistakes
> in them has been removed from them while GetClub game is not even an
> year old.

There are programs on the internet written by college students during
their holidays which are several hundreds of points stronger than yours.
I don't compare yours with world class programs as Fritz, Shredder and
the likes, but with hobby programs one can download for free. And there
are lots of them around.

> But still it plays quite strong.

You can repeat this as often as you want: it does not.

>
> Play with Easy Level and see for yourself. Now, unlike earlier if you
> overlook a move you are gone.

I just had a game. I don't see much of a difference. It overlooks simple
pawn forks, it gives away material left and right. It has no idea about
king's safety and makes effectless moves on the queen's side, while his
king's side is under attack. And I won't even talk about that it still
does not develop its pieces in the opening. All in all I don't feel much
of resistance when playing against it.

> Calling it weak without playing it do not make sense. Yes you won 2-3
> months back but now you will not be able to win Easy level so easily.

I played it, it is as easy as a few month ago. You may be a too weak
player to estimate the strength of your program, but let me tell you -
for a tournament player your program is far away from being a challenge.

Greetings,
Ralf

Date: 13 Mar 2007 18:26:29
From: help bot
Subject: Re: This month a new Improvement done.

On 12, 11:24 pm, "Chess Freak" <[email protected] > wrote:
> At "expert level" on getclub.com, Sanny's program played
>
> 1. e4 e6
> 2. d4 d5
> 3. Nc3 Nf6
> 4. e5 h6???
>
> It even took about 400 seconds to make that killer 4. ... h6
> move!

Okay, there are a few glitches. Suppose you were to
have what appears to be a lock-up, or maybe you started
another game in the same browser as the previous one.
I have seen Sanny's program take "forever" and refuse to
move, but if I reboot my machine it suddenly decides to
move quickly, despite not having reached anywhere near
the depth it had analyzed before, when it would not move.
Strange things can happen, but this is not proof that his
program is horrible on the whole.

In the case you describe above, my first guess is that
Sanny mistyped the book moves, mixing up different lines.
For example, in one popular line the move ...h6 is played
after ...B-b4 and ...Nf6, but there would of course be a
White Bishop on g5. Now why would the program take
400 seconds if it were still "in book", I don't know. It is
possible that the tactical search is so messed up that it
just failed to see the piece hang, of course. But the vast
majority of the time -- even on its weakest levels -- it sees
the simple stuff now, though it wasn't always so.

Here's an example of how it handles tactics on Easy
level: Yesterday, I steadily managed to chalk up a full Rook
advantage (plus several pawns, to boot) and walked my
King right up the board to set up a mating net. But before
I could execute, the program resigned by stopping the
game, for it correctly foresaw that in every line it was a
mate in two coming. This seems to be the typical case
these days; like a weak human player, the program drops
material but it sees enough to put up a bit of resistance.

Recently, I have played just three games at GetClub,
and not one entailed anything like what you describe
above. Two were against Easy level, and one was vs.
(the even easier) Beginner level. All three games
progressed at a reasonable speed, too, but none so
quick that I could afford to try the top levels again on
my notebook, with its rapid battery drain rate.

Okay, here is another possibility in your game: the chess
program was "down" for repairs, so Sanny bravely stepped
in and took the reigns. ; >D

-- help bot

Date: 12 Mar 2007 20:42:12
From: help bot
Subject: Re: How GetClub Chess game developed so Strong.

On 12, 9:35 pm, Ralf Callenberg <[email protected] > wrote:

> No, there are enough programs out there - not talking about Fritz,
> Shredder and the likes, but simple open source programs, which beat me,
> and I won't look for excuses. Just the other day I played a casual game
> against a program I never heard of. The whole installation (including
> GUI) is below 1 MB on the disk. It has obviously only a small opening
> database and played the opening quite strange. I made an error - but
> this was not such a big blunder, and yet it punished me severely. I
> don't say: "Ah, it was just an error on my side", as a weak player would
> not have seen the weakness of my play. You always lose because of
> errors, but some are more difficult to see than others. Sanny's program
> can only see blunderes. Sanny's program doesn't seem to have a line in
> its game, some forcing play. It shuffles the pieces around and if you
> put pieces en prise or try too hard to win fast, he might get a shot,
> but that's it. I could bet: your losses were not due to some striking
> attack of Sanny's program, but were because of over playing the position

You could bet, but you would simply be wrong.

A wiser fellow might just log on to the Web
site and replay these games, before placing his
"bets".

One of the games finished up with a *nice*
mating combination which I have seen in some
published GM game, somewhere. Even so, as
the combination was rather deep, I mistakenly
dismissed the possibility and gave my best shot
at a win. In the other game I also overlooked a
nasty tactical shot, which Sanny's program did
not. As I have pointed out before, it has come a
long way, baby. It is not objective to toss all the
program's early weaknesses in with its current
status and judge them as if homogenized milk.

The early program in fact had higher ratings, as
it had yet to be beaten down by rgc pundits. It
also was looking just a few plys deep, whereas
now it goes as far and as fast as programs from
the late 1980s or so; programs like Genius and
Mchess and Chessmaster, all of which were
years in the making. The key difference is that
those were the work -- at least in part -- of chess
experts, and as a result, far superior all around.

The biggest issue remaining would seem to be
that now, after all the nasty hammering away at
Sanny himself here, there seem to be few if any
players, which leaves only the program to vie
against. In sum, the method of "promotion"
adopted by Sanny has itself brought about the
doom of his Web site, or rather, the chess part
thereof. IMO, he might well do better with a
fresh start, using another name such as
PatzerClub.com or FishClub.com. The title
could perhaps link back into his main Web site,
after modifications to fool the masses. : >D

-- help bot

Date: 14 Mar 2007 00:20:48
From: Ralf Callenberg
Subject: Re: How GetClub Chess game developed so Strong.

13.03.2007 04:42, help bot:

>
> You could bet, but you would simply be wrong.
>
> A wiser fellow might just log on to the Web
> site and replay these games, before placing his
> "bets".

There doesn't seem to be a possibility to search for games. And I doubt
it is overly wise to browse through 140 games just to find your two defeats.

> As I have pointed out before, it has come a
> long way, baby. It is not objective to toss all the
> program's early weaknesses in with its current
> status and judge them as if homogenized milk.

A few months ago I played a game on advanced level, recently one on
beginners level. It still stays: the play of this program is a joke.

> It
> also was looking just a few plys deep, whereas
> now it goes as far and as fast as programs from
> the late 1980s or so;

One shouldn't forget, that in the late 80s the computers were more than
hundred times faster than today, RAM increased by a factor of thousand.
And a Mephisto of the mid 80s would wipe the floor with Sanny's baby.

programs like Genius and
> Mchess and Chessmaster, all of which were
> years in the making. The key difference is that
> those were the work -- at least in part -- of chess
> experts, and as a result, far superior all around.

But those guys were more or less on their own. Nowadays each student can
look at the code of different programs with GM strength and find out how
it can be done.

Greetings,
Ralf

Date: 13 Mar 2007 08:25:04
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: How GetClub Chess game developed so Strong.

On 13, 9:23 am, "help bot" <[email protected] > wrote:
> On 12, 3:31 am, "Sanny" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > I am happy to see my game playing as a 1600 Rated player While I
> > myself is 1500 Rated.
>
> > 6 months back my rating of 1200 but my game improved playing at
> >GetClubChess. At that time Beginner Level was having 1300 rating. 300
> > lower than its current rating.
>
> Where do these rating numbers come from?
> Are you, Sanny, rated unofficially and therefore
> invisible on your own Web site? Are they,
> perhaps, estimates?
>
> -- help bot

These are just a rough Estimates

Here is how I judge. My Rating is arround 1500 and I get beaten by
Beginner quite often So it must be arround +100 than me. arround 1600.

I got my rating as I am better than average Chess player having 1200
Rating.

1000 is the rating for Novice who has Just learnt.

Bye
Sanny.

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

Date: 14 Mar 2007 00:29:56
From: Ralf Callenberg
Subject: Re: How GetClub Chess game developed so Strong.

13.03.2007 16:25, Sanny:

> Here is how I judge. My Rating is arround 1500 and I get beaten by
> Beginner quite often So it must be arround +100 than me. arround 1600.

On which scale do you have got a rating of 1500? I can not imagine, that
a ELO 1500 player gets beaten half the time by your program on Beginners
level. No way.

My estimation is, Beginners Level is roughly 1200. Its a bit difficult
to compare it with human players, as the overall strategic ability is
even much lower (pushing around the pieces with no clear purpose, moving
pieces in the opening several times, making nonsense moves as h6 when
there is absolutely no reason to play this pawn etc.), but it can see
combinations above this level. But all in all a 1500 player shouldn't
have big problems beating your program, and especially not on Beginners
level.

Greetings,
Ralf

Date: 14 Mar 2007 04:55:00
From: Ron
Subject: Re: How GetClub Chess game developed so Strong.

In article <[email protected] >,
Ralf Callenberg <[email protected] > wrote:

> but it can see
> combinations above this level.

Only sometimes. Sometimes you attack a piece with a pawn and it forgets
to move it.

-Ron

Date: 13 Mar 2007 12:47:15
From: Kenneth Sloan
Subject: Re: How GetClub Chess game developed so Strong.

Sanny wrote:

>
> These are just a rough Estimates
>
> Here is how I judge. My Rating is arround 1500

Where is this rating published?

--
Kenneth Sloan [email protected]
Computer and Information Sciences +1-205-932-2213
University of Alabama at Birmingham FAX +1-205-934-5473
Birmingham, AL 35294-1170 http://www.cis.uab.edu/sloan/

Date: 12 Mar 2007 21:58:46
From: help bot
Subject: Re: How GetClub Chess game developed so Strong.

Date: 12 Mar 2007 21:50:11
From: help bot
Subject: Re: How GetClub Chess game developed so Strong.

On 12, 3:31 am, "Sanny" <[email protected] > wrote:

> I am happy to see my game playing as a 1600 Rated player While I
> myself is 1500 Rated.
>
> 6 months back my rating of 1200 but my game improved playing at
> GetClub Chess. At that time Beginner Level was having 1300 rating. 300
> lower than its current rating.

Where do these rating numbers come from?
Are you, Sanny, rated unofficially and therefore
invisible on your own Web site? Are they,
perhaps, estimates?

-- help bot

Date: 12 Mar 2007 21:23:07
From: help bot
Subject: Re: How GetClub Chess game developed so Strong.

Date: 12 Mar 2007 20:01:04
From: help bot
Subject: Re: This month a new Improvement done.

On 12, 3:26 am, "Sanny" <[email protected] > wrote:

> ch 2007: Game strength further improved.
>
> Now it will be twice tougher than the games it played in Feb 2007.
>
> If The game continues to improve like earlier, I am sure beginner
> level will reach a rating of 1800 in next 2-3 months. Currently
> Beginner plays like a 1600 Rated Player.
>
> Play 5/10 Games at:http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
>
> If you win those game then Tell my the moves where computer was wrong
> and What was the correct move. I will see that mistake do not repeat
> in future.

One way to improve the program would be to have it
"hang" or lock up whenever I make a move (i.e. whenever
I am likely winning) so it never loses to me. This same
strategy should also work against Taylor Kingston and
"Bob". No, wait -- that's not fair!

Okay, maybe we should make a few comments after
the games so you will have some clue as to why the
program lost. But, again, the approach whereby we
state the "correct" move for you to hardwire in is far
from any real solution, as there is a nearly *infinite*
number of possible chess positions. In short, the right
way is to "teach" the program to find better moves on
its own.

Let me give an example of what I mean. In a recent
game at RedHotPawn, the play went:

1.e4 c6
2.Bc4 d5
3.ed ed
4.Bb5+ Nc6
5.d3

Now here I noticed a tactical problem in that after
my next move the only response to not immediately
hang the Bishop is Nc3, which allows p-d4, attacking
the pinned Knight and (apart from any complications),
snaring a piece.

5. ... Qa5+
6.Nc3

Here I note that after my attack on the pinned Knight,
my opponent can easily trade his Bishop *with check*,
thereby leaving only the Knight to be reckoned with.
In addition, there is another issue: White can try Q-f3,
with tactical threats of his own which might well save
the day or perhaps even turn the tables. Nevertheless,
I proceed as planned.

6. ... d4
7.Bd2

The game is lost, for my opponent did not see the
one move which might have saved him: Qf3.

Now, suppose this game had been between the
program at GetClub and me, and I were to tell you
that in the opening, White erred with 2.Bc4. In no
way would addressing that problem help the more
serious ones which followed. You would perhaps
type in an automatic 2.d4, but the program would
not avoid making this sort of error in other, similar
positions which might arise. The real fix is to go in
and rehash the tactical search, so that the program
could "see" all the basic tactical ramifications of
the move 5.d3 using check-and-capture extensions.

------------

It's really a simple case of: give a chess program a
fish, you feed it for a day; TEACH a chess program
to fish, you feed it for life.

-- help bot

("...a font of wisdom" -- Taylor Kingston)

Date: 12 Mar 2007 20:24:48
From: Chess Freak
Subject: Re: This month a new Improvement done.

At "expert level" on getclub.com, Sanny's program played

1. e4 e6
2. d4 d5
3. Nc3 Nf6
4. e5 h6???

It even took about 400 seconds to make that killer 4. ... h6
move!

"help bot" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 12, 3:26 am, "Sanny" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> ch 2007: Game strength further improved.
>>
>> Now it will be twice tougher than the games it played in Feb 2007.
>>
>> If The game continues to improve like earlier, I am sure beginner
>> level will reach a rating of 1800 in next 2-3 months. Currently
>> Beginner plays like a 1600 Rated Player.
>>
>> Play 5/10 Games at:http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
>>
>> If you win those game then Tell my the moves where computer was wrong
>> and What was the correct move. I will see that mistake do not repeat
>> in future.
>
> One way to improve the program would be to have it
> "hang" or lock up whenever I make a move (i.e. whenever
> I am likely winning) so it never loses to me. This same
> strategy should also work against Taylor Kingston and
> "Bob". No, wait -- that's not fair!
>
> Okay, maybe we should make a few comments after
> the games so you will have some clue as to why the
> program lost. But, again, the approach whereby we
> state the "correct" move for you to hardwire in is far
> from any real solution, as there is a nearly *infinite*
> number of possible chess positions. In short, the right
> way is to "teach" the program to find better moves on
> its own.
>
> Let me give an example of what I mean. In a recent
> game at RedHotPawn, the play went:
>
> 1.e4 c6
> 2.Bc4 d5
> 3.ed ed
> 4.Bb5+ Nc6
> 5.d3
>
> Now here I noticed a tactical problem in that after
> my next move the only response to not immediately
> hang the Bishop is Nc3, which allows p-d4, attacking
> the pinned Knight and (apart from any complications),
> snaring a piece.
>
> 5. ... Qa5+
> 6.Nc3
>
> Here I note that after my attack on the pinned Knight,
> my opponent can easily trade his Bishop *with check*,
> thereby leaving only the Knight to be reckoned with.
> In addition, there is another issue: White can try Q-f3,
> with tactical threats of his own which might well save
> the day or perhaps even turn the tables. Nevertheless,
> I proceed as planned.
>
> 6. ... d4
> 7.Bd2
>
> The game is lost, for my opponent did not see the
> one move which might have saved him: Qf3.
>
> Now, suppose this game had been between the
> program at GetClub and me, and I were to tell you
> that in the opening, White erred with 2.Bc4. In no
> way would addressing that problem help the more
> serious ones which followed. You would perhaps
> type in an automatic 2.d4, but the program would
> not avoid making this sort of error in other, similar
> positions which might arise. The real fix is to go in
> and rehash the tactical search, so that the program
> could "see" all the basic tactical ramifications of
> the move 5.d3 using check-and-capture extensions.
>
> ------------
>
> It's really a simple case of: give a chess program a
> fish, you feed it for a day; TEACH a chess program
> to fish, you feed it for life.
>
> -- help bot
>
> ("...a font of wisdom" -- Taylor Kingston)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Date: 12 Mar 2007 10:50:04
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: How GetClub Chess game developed so Strong.

> "[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > Beginner: 1600
> > > Easy: 1700
> > > Normal: 1800

> > So once again tell me why I care. I can find weak programs for free
> > literally anywhere. So what? It's slowly improving. So? it will
> > forever be an inferior product on a very much inferior website. The
> > site design is horribly annoying. It's cluttered, full of stupid
> > animated gimmicks, and unwanted sound.

As per your Instructions

1. Sound has been Removed !!!
2. animated Gimmicks have been removed too.

>
> More to the point, based on Sanny's history of outright lies about the
> strength of the program, why should anyone give any of his claims any
> credibility?
>

Play a game I am sure you will face it upside down. as GetClub has
been constantly improving.

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

Date: 12 Mar 2007 09:29:08
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: How GetClub Chess game developed so Strong.

> > Now beginner Level plays Quite fast and stronger. Currently it is
> > playing with 1600 Rating and every months its strength increases
> > roughly by 50.
>
> > On a fast computer P-IV 2.5 GHz
>
> > Beginner: 1600
> > Easy: 1700
> > Normal: 1800

> So once again tell me why I care. I can find weak programs for free
> literally anywhere. So what? It's slowly improving. So? it will
> forever be an inferior product on a very much inferior website. The
> site design is horribly annoying. It's cluttered, full of stupid
> animated gimmicks, and unwanted sound.

Thanks for your advice about Sound I too feel that sound is bit boring
after listning 100s of times.. Should I remove the music from the
Website?

It is weak (still 1600 rating) because it plays without installing on
your computer. It only uses resources Browser provides to the applet.
If it plays standalone it would be much stronger.

Why you will play at GetClub.com Site.

1. you get 5 levels. (Beginner/ Easy/ Normal....)
2. You get Rating on winning
3. You can play with Human opponents online too. {Fix a match with
Nomorechess and see if you can win him.}
4. Your games are recorded
5. You get Prizes every month on winning

and many more reasions to Play at
http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

Date: 13 Mar 2007 02:46:00
From: Ralf Callenberg
Subject: Re: How GetClub Chess game developed so Strong.

12.03.2007 17:29, Sanny:

>
> It is weak (still 1600 rating) because it plays without installing on
> your computer. It only uses resources Browser provides to the applet.
> If it plays standalone it would be much stronger.

This is wishfull thinking. Try it out, convert it to a stand alone. You
will see, that with current JVMs the difference between Java running in
an applet and running in its own process is not so overwhelming as to be
a sound basis for your assumption.

Greetings,
Ralf

Date: 12 Mar 2007 13:33:27
From: Kenneth Sloan
Subject: Re: How GetClub Chess game developed so Strong.

Sanny wrote:
>>> Now beginner Level plays Quite fast and stronger. Currently it is
>>> playing with 1600 Rating and every months its strength increases
>>> roughly by 50.
>>> On a fast computer P-IV 2.5 GHz
>>> Beginner: 1600
>>> Easy: 1700
>>> Normal: 1800
>
>> So once again tell me why I care. I can find weak programs for free
>> literally anywhere. So what? It's slowly improving. So? it will
>> forever be an inferior product on a very much inferior website. The
>> site design is horribly annoying. It's cluttered, full of stupid
>> animated gimmicks, and unwanted sound.
>
> Thanks for your advice about Sound I too feel that sound is bit boring
> after listning 100s of times.. Should I remove the music from the
> Website?

It would be better to simply remove the website.

>
> It is weak (still 1600 rating) because it plays without installing on
> your computer. It only uses resources Browser provides to the applet.
> If it plays standalone it would be much stronger.
>

It is weak because it is badly written.

Better programs have been created that use 1/10 the resources.

> Why you will play at GetClub.com Site.
>
> 1. you get 5 levels. (Beginner/ Easy/ Normal....)

All of them mis-represented

> 2. You get Rating on winning

of what possible value is a GetClub rating???

> 3. You can play with Human opponents online too. {Fix a match with
> Nomorechess and see if you can win him.}

how many humans are available to play, right now?

> 4. Your games are recorded

it would be nice if the website provided a gamescore during the game.

> 5. You get Prizes every month on winning

I've won every game I've played, and never won a prize.

>
> and many more reasions to Play at
> http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

don't be shy - we have time - please list ALL the reasons.

>
> Bye
> Sanny
>
> Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
>

--
Kenneth Sloan [email protected]
Computer and Information Sciences +1-205-932-2213
University of Alabama at Birmingham FAX +1-205-934-5473
Birmingham, AL 35294-1170 http://www.cis.uab.edu/sloan/

Date: 12 Mar 2007 08:40:55
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: How GetClub Chess game developed so Strong.

On 12, 1:36 am, "Sanny" <[email protected] > wrote:

> Now beginner Level plays Quite fast and stronger. Currently it is
> playing with 1600 Rating and every months its strength increases
> roughly by 50.
>
> On a fast computer P-IV 2.5 GHz
>
> Beginner: 1600
> Easy: 1700
> Normal: 1800

So once again tell me why I care. I can find weak programs for free
literally anywhere. So what? It's slowly improving. So? it will
forever be an inferior product on a very much inferior website. The
site design is horribly annoying. It's cluttered, full of stupid
animated gimmicks, and unwanted sound.

But I think 'help bot' got it right about crying wolf. Sanny, you
have used up all your credibility and then some.

Date: 12 Mar 2007 08:28:24
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: How GetClub Chess game developed so Strong.

Date: 12 Mar 2007 17:03:21
From: Ron
Subject: Re: How GetClub Chess game developed so Strong.

In article <[email protected] >,
"[email protected]" <[email protected] > wrote:

> > Beginner: 1600
> > Easy: 1700
> > Normal: 1800
>
> So once again tell me why I care. I can find weak programs for free
> literally anywhere. So what? It's slowly improving. So? it will
> forever be an inferior product on a very much inferior website. The
> site design is horribly annoying. It's cluttered, full of stupid
> animated gimmicks, and unwanted sound.

More to the point, based on Sanny's history of outright lies about the
strength of the program, why should anyone give any of his claims any
credibility?

-Ron

Date: 12 Mar 2007 00:36:59
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: How GetClub Chess game developed so Strong.

> That's probably because nobody tried. I played a few games, just out of
> curiosity. If I got problems, it was just, because I did it while
> concentrated on other things, as the games take much too long, to play
> just against this program, without doing other things in the meantime.

Now beginner Level plays Quite fast and stronger. Currently it is
playing with 1600 Rating and every months its strength increases
roughly by 50.

On a fast computer P-IV 2.5 GHz

Beginner: 1600
Easy: 1700
Normal: 1800

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

Date: 13 Mar 2007 03:17:43
From: Ralf Callenberg
Subject: Re: How GetClub Chess game developed so Strong.

12.03.2007 08:36, Sanny:

> Now beginner Level plays Quite fast and stronger. Currently it is
> playing with 1600 Rating and every months its strength increases
> roughly by 50.

Where do you get these numbers from? I just played it on an AMD 2600 and
my impression is, that Beginners level is around 1000, 1200 if being
generous.

> Beginner: 1600
> Easy: 1700
> Normal: 1800

It seems to me, you are making up those numbers.

Greetings,
Ralf

Date: 12 Mar 2007 00:31:33
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: How GetClub Chess game developed so Strong.

> Maybe a wolf crier does not deserve a fair test. Maybe
> he used up all his credit and is forever stuck with a credit
> rating of "F minus". But the program itself s not Sanny.
> I prefer to remain objective, and so to me the field is wide
> open as to its current strength. It might be only 1400, or
> it could be as high as 1800 -- I don't know. But I do know
> that it was once sub-1200, and since then it has improved
> kedly, regardless of what Sanny may claim.

I am happy to see my game playing as a 1600 Rated player While I
myself is 1500 Rated.

6 months back my rating of 1200 but my game improved playing at
GetClub Chess. At that time Beginner Level was having 1300 rating. 300
lower than its current rating.

On a fast computer P-IV 2.5 GHz

Beginner: 1600
Easy: 1700
Normal: 1800

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

Date: 12 Mar 2007 00:26:19
From: Sanny
Subject: This month a new Improvement done.

On 8, 11:37 am, "Sanny" <[email protected] > wrote:
> GetClubgame speed and strength have kept improving because of good
> players playing it and beating it. But many players are not playing it
> thinking it to be as weak as it was 3 months back.
>
> Try a game:http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
>
> GetClubGame was designed in May 2006
>

> Jun 2006 its all illegal Moves were Removed.
> July 2006 it was playing good enough to complete a game.
> Aug 2006 Game Strength was increased
> Sep 2006 Opening was added
-----
------
> Dec 2006 Time was reduced to maximum 1 min/ move
> Jan 2007 Great Speed Jump done
> Feb 2007 Game strength was increased
>

Now to add this month improvements to the list

ch 2007: Game strength further improved.

Now it will be twice tougher than the games it played in Feb 2007.

If The game continues to improve like earlier, I am sure beginner
level will reach a rating of 1800 in next 2-3 months. Currently
Beginner plays like a 1600 Rated Player.

Play 5/10 Games at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

If you win those game then Tell my the moves where computer was wrong
and What was the correct move. I will see that mistake do not repeat
in future.

Say 20. N-f3 was wrong because ..... And Correct move is 20. P-f3

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

Date: 11 Mar 2007 22:30:46
From: help bot
Subject: Re: How GetClub Chess game developed so Strong.

On 11, 12:53 pm, Ralf Callenberg <[email protected] > wrote:
> 11.03.2007 06:25, help bot:
>
> > All I am saying is that in view of all the commentary
> > here to the effect that this program can be beaten with
> > one's eyes closed, it is amusing that nobody -- not even
> > nearly-an-IMs or 2300+s -- has yet managed to approach
> > my lofty rating, despite my complete inactivity of late.
>
> That's probably because nobody tried. I played a few games, just out of
> curiosity. If I got problems, it was just, because I did it while
> concentrated on other things, as the games take much too long, to play
> just against this program, without doing other things in the meantime.
> And especially regarding this endless duration of those games, and that
> I manage to win games even after a rook down without compensation, I
> simply regard it as a waste of time playing against it. Why should I
> play against it? Proving that I am stronger than a program on a sub 1600
> level? Others think the same, and that's the simple reason, why you are
> the undisputed king of ChessClub - and not some strange reason still to
> look for.

Heh, heh! So you managed to win after hanging a Rook.
But what of the fact that you not only managed to hang your
Rook, but the program also managed to take it from you!
So then, you are in the habit of hanging Rooks to, as you
say, sub-1600s. Yet this is of no importance(?), only what
happened afterward: the failure to convert. But then, had
the program converted the win you could have fallen back
to the "I wasn't paying attention" defense, so there is no
opportunity for it to "win" and you can't really "lose", once
you take into account all the possible excuses. In short,
an unfair, or pretend test.

When I first started playing at GetClub I was given few
opportunities to hang anything; all that mattered was my
wide choice of free material, given generously. At that
time, Sanny was informed his program was sub-1000 in
strength. Now it sometimes takes Rooks away, but no
credit is given for "improvements" due to the countless
times he cried "wolf". My take is that if the program can
now snatch Rooks from the hand, it shows improvement,
even if the endgame is so poor that it cannot always
convert the win. The point is this: neither can you always
save the loss, even if in your pretend test you succeeded.
To this Rook hang I would add my losses, where the
program "somehow" managed to play quite well for many
moves.

Maybe a wolf crier does not deserve a fair test. Maybe
he used up all his credit and is forever stuck with a credit
rating of "F minus". But the program itself s not Sanny.
I prefer to remain objective, and so to me the field is wide
open as to its current strength. It might be only 1400, or
it could be as high as 1800 -- I don't know. But I do know
that it was once sub-1200, and since then it has improved
kedly, regardless of what Sanny may claim.

Mostly I now play at RedHotPawn -- a site with no
issues and no misrepresentations and yes, human
opponents. The slowness remains, for when you make
a move the opponent has a day before his clock starts
to tick. Yet this is countered by the fact that you can
play six games at once, and for free. At first, the level of
opposition was very weak, and I won almost effortlessly.
But after a few players whose ratings had climbed well
above the starting point joined in, it got tougher. In fact,
in one game I made a strategic error and with clockwork
precision (or *computer* precision, perhaps) I was ground
into a pulp. So much for my perfect record.

As with GetClub, the level of play there leaves much to
be desired, but there remains the distinct possibility of a
human opponent utilizing a strong chess program at any
time, so the only way to be sure is to play in person,
OTB, and don;t let your opponent go to the restroom... .
: >D

-- help bot

Date: 13 Mar 2007 02:35:52
From: Ralf Callenberg
Subject: Re: How GetClub Chess game developed so Strong.

12.03.2007 06:30, help bot:

> Heh, heh! So you managed to win after hanging a Rook.
> But what of the fact that you not only managed to hang your
> Rook, but the program also managed to take it from you!

It wasn't so difficult.

> So then, you are in the habit of hanging Rooks to, as you
> say, sub-1600s.

Only when playing casually and when not taking the opponent seriously.

> But then, had
> the program converted the win you could have fallen back
> to the "I wasn't paying attention" defense, so there is no
> opportunity for it to "win" and you can't really "lose", once
> you take into account all the possible excuses. In short,
> an unfair, or pretend test.

No, there are enough programs out there - not talking about Fritz,
Shredder and the likes, but simple open source programs, which beat me,
and I won't look for excuses. Just the other day I played a casual game
against a program I never heard of. The whole installation (including
GUI) is below 1 MB on the disk. It has obviously only a small opening
database and played the opening quite strange. I made an error - but
this was not such a big blunder, and yet it punished me severely. I
don't say: "Ah, it was just an error on my side", as a weak player would
not have seen the weakness of my play. You always lose because of
errors, but some are more difficult to see than others. Sanny's program
can only see blunderes. Sanny's program doesn't seem to have a line in
its game, some forcing play. It shuffles the pieces around and if you
put pieces en prise or try too hard to win fast, he might get a shot,
but that's it. I could bet: your losses were not due to some striking
attack of Sanny's program, but were because of over playing the position
on your side. Your attack just went wrong. This small program I played,
which probably is not even on the Swedish Computer Rating list, played a
quite consistent and comprehensive style.

It's not that I generally don't respect what amateur programmers manage
to achieve in a few month of programming, to the contrary, I think it's
amazing how strong even results of small hobby projects have become. I
am just not impressed by what Sanny has achived over the last year or
so. It's not that chess programming is a secret science any more. There
are a lot of extremely strong open source programs out there, where you
can see how to do it. Yes, he made some progress, but it's still not
impressive, and most of his progress is due to his poor beginning.

And this leads to the original question: why bothering with this
program? One can chose amongst a high number of free programs which are
mostly stronger and play much faster. Just because you can see your name
on top of some silly ranking list?

> >
> As with GetClub, the level of play there leaves much to
> be desired, but there remains the distinct possibility of a
> human opponent utilizing a strong chess program at any
> time, so the only way to be sure is to play in person,
> OTB, and don;t let your opponent go to the restroom... .

As 99% percent of my games are OTB, I don't care about those cheap
cheaters on the internet anyway. Cheaters OTB at least at the moment are
not an issue and only the topic of "would be" talking.

Greetings,
Ralf

Date: 10 Mar 2007 21:25:52
From: help bot
Subject: Re: How GetClub Chess game developed so Strong.

On 10, 11:32 pm, "[email protected]" <[email protected] >
wrote:
> > To sum up, the critics are out in droves, yet not one
> > of them seems able to "walk the walk" when it comes
> > to actually thrashing the supposedly pathetically weak
> > program the way I have.
>
> Of course you completely and I think deliberately miss the point,
> which is simply that there are so many better programs and so many
> better sites, GetClubbed remains a colossal waste of time. So what if
> Sanny has his program playing at, say, the USCF 1600 level or
> thereabouts? Why should anyone even bother?

Good question. One reason would be that this may
be your last chance ever to play a chess program and
actually win. Another is that there can be no question
of the opponent cheating by referencing a (strong)
program, so what you see is what you get. Of course,
many if not most would prefer a human opponent, but
then you must accept the risk of losing to an android
computer-operator in disguise. The GetClub site is a
place where you can find a -- let's say -- 1600 level
opponent at any time, night or day. But there may
well be better sites with equal amenities which also
offer a far stronger computer opponent as an option.

All I am saying is that in view of all the commentary
here to the effect that this program can be beaten with
one's eyes closed, it is amusing that nobody -- not even
nearly-an-IMs or 2300+s -- has yet managed to approach
my lofty rating, despite my complete inactivity of late.
It seems to me that the program has in fact gotten a
lot tougher, and this, along with a shortage of "fresh
meat" to boost the program's rating back up where it
started, is what prevents anyone from overtaking me.
The fact is, I can't play much there at all, on account
of the killer battery drain to my notebook. So my still
being in first place is rather strange. It reminds me a
little of all the geniuses, super-geniuses, and almost-
geniuses who appear in every thread about IQ and
chess. Geniuses everywhere, but not an average
fellow in sight! The same with GetClub: critics galore,
but none that manage to show up on the ratings chart
radar screen. Of course, they will all claim it is the
fact that they don't *want* to play and crush Sanny's
monstrosity with eyes shut, and this may even be so.
But it leaves room for doubt.

-- help bot

Date: 11 Mar 2007 17:53:05
From: Ralf Callenberg
Subject: Re: How GetClub Chess game developed so Strong.

11.03.2007 06:25, help bot:

> All I am saying is that in view of all the commentary
> here to the effect that this program can be beaten with
> one's eyes closed, it is amusing that nobody -- not even
> nearly-an-IMs or 2300+s -- has yet managed to approach
> my lofty rating, despite my complete inactivity of late.

That's probably because nobody tried. I played a few games, just out of
curiosity. If I got problems, it was just, because I did it while
concentrated on other things, as the games take much too long, to play
just against this program, without doing other things in the meantime.
And especially regarding this endless duration of those games, and that
I manage to win games even after a rook down without compensation, I
simply regard it as a waste of time playing against it. Why should I
play against it? Proving that I am stronger than a program on a sub 1600
level? Others think the same, and that's the simple reason, why you are
the undisputed king of ChessClub - and not some strange reason still to
look for.

Greetings,
Ralf

Date: 10 Mar 2007 20:32:25
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: How GetClub Chess game developed so Strong.

> To sum up, the critics are out in droves, yet not one
> of them seems able to "walk the walk" when it comes
> to actually thrashing the supposedly pathetically weak
> program the way I have.

Of course you completely and I think deliberately miss the point,
which is simply that there are so many better programs and so many
better sites, GetClubbed remains a colossal waste of time. So what if
Sanny has his program playing at, say, the USCF 1600 level or
thereabouts? Why should anyone even bother?

Date: 09 Mar 2007 14:17:25
From: help bot
Subject: Re: How GetClub Chess game developed so Strong.

On 9, 11:15 am, "[email protected]" <[email protected] > wrote:

> > Jan 2007 Great Speed Jump done
>
> Jumps are in checkers.

This comment reveals just how desperate a few of the
critics are to find fault where there is none. : >D

> > Still many improvements are needed
>
> Your only really accurate statement.

Try a game now and see if you think there has still
been no improvements. I recently ripped off two games,
and found the program a decent opponent relative to
a wide variety of players I have recently played at
another Web site called RedHotPawn.

IMO, the program used to be so weak that for about
a month, I thought I was Paul Morphy reincarnated!
Now things are a lot tougher. Sure, it took a long time,
but then, you should have expected as much since
Sanny's programming team were not experts in chess
programming, but HTML guys.

Recently, I have been "warned" that somebody is
fast approaching my stellar rating at GetClub, and
I had better get busy protecting it, etc. Then I read
a comment where Sanny described himself as hitting
the 1400+ level, which got me curious. So I logged
on at GetClub and lo and behold, not only is this
Jebediah critter nowhere near to breaking my record,
but Sanny is not even listed among the top players.

To sum up, the critics are out in droves, yet not one
of them seems able to "walk the walk" when it comes
to actually thrashing the supposedly pathetically weak
program the way I have. In my most recent game vs.
Beginner level, the program played at a decent speed
for all but a few moves. And in the other game, where
I faced off against the Easy level, it took somewhat
longer, but still nowhere near to the slothful ways of
the past. In fact, were I not rapidly running out of
battery power all the time, I would probably have gone
ahead and tested the next higher level as well.

I can tell from the strength of play that the displayed
number of plys is not just a bogus trick, and judging
from this, the program has made *vast* improvements.

-- help bot

Date: 09 Mar 2007 08:15:05
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: How GetClub Chess game developed so Strong.

> Jun 2006 its all illegal Moves were Removed.

Imagine that, it stopped playing illegal moves.

> July 2006 it was playing good enough to complete a game.

Imagine that, it finished a game.

> Aug 2006 Game Strength was increased

Now that it can finish a game ... wow!

> Sep 2006 Opening was added

Really getting up there, Sanny.

> Oct 2006 New rules were added

New rules? As opposed to illegal moves?

> Nov 2006 It played taking long time 5-10 min/ move

Now there's a real improvement.

> Dec 2006 Time was reduced to maximum 1 min/ move

Except that it wasn't.

> Jan 2007 Great Speed Jump done

Jumps are in checkers.

> Feb 2007 Game strength was increased

No where else to go.

> So one can see every month there was a bit improvement in the game. A

Every month there was more hype.

> Still many improvements are needed

Your only really accurate statement.

Date: 08 Mar 2007 13:18:41
From: Kenneth Sloan
Subject: Re: How GetClub Chess game developed so Strong.

Sanny wrote:
> GetClub game speed and strength have kept improving because of good
> players playing it and beating it. But many players are not playing it
> thinking it to be as weak as it was 3 months back.
>
> Try a game: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
>

OK...here goes...

a) no move listing
b) 20-second delay, every so often, between when the user drops a piece
on a new square and when the piece actually is displayed on that square
c) program oversteps the time control on every move - according to it's
own clock
d) the clock is inaccurate
e) 20-second delay, every so often, between when the clock stops, and
when the board is updated
f) program drops a piece for nothing around move 15
g) I intentionally give back the piece and trade down to a R+2P ending,
allowing the program the distant passed pawn
h) program drops the other pawn (giving me two connected passed pawns
protected by - and protecting - my K)
i) programs distant passed pawn is never pushed
j) I queen
k) it's now mate in one, and the program reports that it has taken 1060
seconds searching for a way out. the program has 3 legal moves, and my
response to all of them is the same: Qh8++. The program claims to be
"Thinking on King (7)"

You are right - this version is much better than the last version.

--
Kenneth Sloan [email protected]
Computer and Information Sciences +1-205-932-2213
University of Alabama at Birmingham FAX +1-205-934-5473
Birmingham, AL 35294-1170 http://www.cis.uab.edu/sloan/

Date: 08 Mar 2007 11:25:58
From: Mike Murray
Subject: Re: How GetClub Chess game developed so Strong.

On Thu, 08 2007 13:18:41 -0600, Kenneth Sloan
<[email protected] > wrote:

>You are right - this version is much better than the last version.

Maybe we start worrying about somebody planting GetClub on a MonRoi ?
Heh, heh, heh.

Date: 08 Mar 2007 07:22:04
From: Ron
Subject: Re: How GetClub Chess game developed so Strong.

I see another timeline:

Jun 2006: Sanny lies about the strength and speed of his program.
July 2006: Sanny lies about the strength and speed of his program.
Aug 2006: Sanny lies about the strength and speed of his program.
Sep 2006: Sanny lies about the strength and speed of his program.
Oct 2006: Sanny lies about the strength and speed of his program.
Nov 2006: Sanny lies about the strength and speed of his program.
Dec 2006: Sanny lies about the strength and speed of his program.
Jan 2007: Sanny lies about the strength and speed of his program.
Feb 2007: Sanny lies about the strength and speed of his program.

Date: 09 Mar 2007 18:59:30
From: Terry
Subject: Re: How GetClub Chess game developed so Strong.

"Ron" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> I see another timeline:
>
> Jun 2006: Sanny lies about the strength and speed of his program.
> July 2006: Sanny lies about the strength and speed of his program.
> Aug 2006: Sanny lies about the strength and speed of his program.
> Sep 2006: Sanny lies about the strength and speed of his program.
> Oct 2006: Sanny lies about the strength and speed of his program.
> Nov 2006: Sanny lies about the strength and speed of his program.
> Dec 2006: Sanny lies about the strength and speed of his program.
> Jan 2007: Sanny lies about the strength and speed of his program.
> Feb 2007: Sanny lies about the strength and speed of his program.

LOL