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Main
Date: 30 Oct 2006 00:19:52
From: Sanny
Subject: GetClub Game Development Stopped due to Money
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Now, I am feeling uncertain about the GetClub Game Development. It is
taking lot of money, While the response of players was not so good as
was predicted 6 months back. We need atleast $100- $200/month to keep
improving the Game.
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
Now, we will not invest our Time and Money in Developing this Chess
game further. As we are not getting back what we are investing. We are
loosing our Fresh Money that we earned by hard work.
However if any of the Rich Player want the Game to Progress and play
good enough, their support is appriciated.
We are looking for support from the Players. You just need to buy Games
from site.
Purchase More Games at:
http://www.getclub.com/Secured/Purchase_Games.php?Game=10.00
If we collect atleast $100- $200 / month we can Sustain the GetClub
Chess with further improvements. It is very difficult to improve the
Game without getting Money back.
If you want further Improvements in GetClub Chess Game, buy our Games
that will help us improve this game.
Purchase Chess Games at:
http://www.getclub.com/Secured/Purchase_Games.php?Game=10.00
Currently the game plays good enough to be played as a free Game. But
further improvements can come only when we get back enough Money for
further Improvements.
Bye
Sanny
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
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Date: 03 Nov 2006 02:22:35
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: A Little Improvement Done.
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> As far as the "tab" key goes, I rarely use it. In fact,
> I quite often catch myself using the notebook
> equivalent of a mouse, where the tab key would have
> been quicker and simpler. It's an old habit I developed
> back when I was using a desktop computer, and the
> mouse did everything but type out text. As I said, I
> did not click the "resign game" button; I was reading
> in another tab at the time the game ended abruptly,
> opening a new browser where the game could be
> replayed. It did not signal that it had moved by
> playing a sound, so I had no reason to stop reading
> and switch to the GetClub tab. As you can see, I
> was about to deliver checkmate in two or three
> more moves.
That Game was Cancelled and your Ratings were Updated to Previous
Values.
Bye
Sanny
Play Chess at: http://www.getclub.com/Chess.html
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Date: 02 Nov 2006 23:13:42
From: help bot
Subject: Re: A Little Improvement Done.
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Sanny wrote:
> > A while back, we were advised to not have multiple
> > browsers open because this slows the program down
> > too much, so I started using a single (Firefox) browser,
> > utilizing the "tabs" feature to switch back and forth
> > when I hear the sound signalling that the program has
> > moved. I don't see much of a difference in speed, but
> > I suppose it is likely my computer's "resources" are
> > used more efficiently with tabs instead of multiple
> > browser instances.
>
> Play Chess at: http://www.getclub.com/Chess.html
>
> Using Tabs get result in error.
>
> Say instead of Pressing Tab Twice and It points to another button. I
> always use mouse clicks as it will always press the buttonm where it is
> pointing to.
>
> In using Tabs (Keyboard Interface) Sometimes we press ENTER KEYS while
> wrong Button is selected.
>
> In XP While Shut Down I never use tabs as It is always unclear which
> button is currently selected.
Sanny, the old Internet Explorer lacked this new
feature (which Firefox has had for some time), but
the new one will have it. In fact, the new IE is out
now, and it has tabs. I am not certain exactly how
this works, but with tabs you can switch between
multiple windows in the same browser, instead of
running several instances of that browser, each
with just one "window". Each of these tabs represents
a seperate window in the browser.
As far as the "tab" key goes, I rarely use it. In fact,
I quite often catch myself using the notebook
equivalent of a mouse, where the tab key would have
been quicker and simpler. It's an old habit I developed
back when I was using a desktop computer, and the
mouse did everything but type out text. As I said, I
did not click the "resign game" button; I was reading
in another tab at the time the game ended abruptly,
opening a new browser where the game could be
replayed. It did not signal that it had moved by
playing a sound, so I had no reason to stop reading
and switch to the GetClub tab. As you can see, I
was about to deliver checkmate in two or three
more moves.
-----------
I saw the post about the prize winners for October,
and thought I'd have a look at Zebediah's games to
see if he was any good. The very first game I looked
at (and I stopped there) had him playing the master
level. Everything was going normally, when I noticed
that your program was about to get forked and lose
a piece. Sure enough, Zebediah moved his Queen
to threaten mate on the move, AND a loose Bishop.
But instead of defending against the instant mate, your
program just ignored that threat -- and this was on the
master level! What's up with that? I just don't
understand what sort of programming it is that allows
a shallow tactical threat like this to slip by. The one
strength of computers in chess is supposed to be
short-range tactics, where they *never* overlook the
obvious (unlike humans). In this one case, I would
have to say that you would have done better to use
the simplest program possible, just add up the
values of the men and see which move leads to the
smallest loss. K=100, Q=10, R=5, B=3, N=3, p=1
Clearly, on master level the program ought to be able
to "see" several plys deep in all variations, and even if
you got the piece values all wrong, so long as the King
is overweighted, the program will t least *try* to avoid
mate!
-- help bot
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Date: 02 Nov 2006 04:53:44
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: A Little Improvement Done.
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> A while back, we were advised to not have multiple
> browsers open because this slows the program down
> too much, so I started using a single (Firefox) browser,
> utilizing the "tabs" feature to switch back and forth
> when I hear the sound signalling that the program has
> moved. I don't see much of a difference in speed, but
> I suppose it is likely my computer's "resources" are
> used more efficiently with tabs instead of multiple
> browser instances.
Play Chess at: http://www.getclub.com/Chess.html
Using Tabs get result in error.
Say instead of Pressing Tab Twice and It points to another button. I
always use mouse clicks as it will always press the buttonm where it is
pointing to.
In using Tabs (Keyboard Interface) Sometimes we press ENTER KEYS while
wrong Button is selected.
In XP While Shut Down I never use tabs as It is always unclear which
button is currently selected.
Bye
Sanny
Play Chess at: http://www.getclub.com/Chess.html
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Date: 02 Nov 2006 15:33:24
From: Chris F.A. Johnson
Subject: Re: A Little Improvement Done.
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On 2006-11-02, Sanny wrote:
>> A while back, we were advised to not have multiple
>> browsers open because this slows the program down
>> too much, so I started using a single (Firefox) browser,
>> utilizing the "tabs" feature to switch back and forth
>> when I hear the sound signalling that the program has
>> moved. I don't see much of a difference in speed, but
>> I suppose it is likely my computer's "resources" are
>> used more efficiently with tabs instead of multiple
>> browser instances.
>
> Play Chess at: http://www.getclub.com/Chess.html
>
> Using Tabs get result in error.
>
> Say instead of Pressing Tab Twice and It points to another button. I
> always use mouse clicks as it will always press the buttonm where it is
> pointing to.
He is not talking about the TAB key, but about browser tabs, in
which several web pages are accessible within a single window by
clicking on a tab at the top of the window.
--
Chris F.A. Johnson <http://cfaj.freeshell.org >
===================================================================
Author:
Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress)
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Date: 02 Nov 2006 03:05:12
From: help bot
Subject: Re: A Little Improvement Done.
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Tony M wrote:
> I made an earlier post recommending that Sanny look at the source of
> the Java version of TCSP for an idea on implementing a time control so
> that a program plays in exactly x number of seconds. I made the
> recommendation because TSCP handles it in a simple way, and in only
> about a dozen lines of code.
>
> In Java/chess programming speak (help bot, you may want to skip this
> paragraph, it's hellaciously geeky), TSCP puts the entire root search
(root search: this is what rabbits do when looking for carrots)
> in a try block
(try block: a block with precisely three sides)
>, checks for a timeout
(timeout: what you put your kids in when they misbehave)
> every 1024 nodes
(nodes: similar to nematodes, but without the emats)
> (both in the alpha/beta
(Alpha beta is a large grocery store chain.)
> and quiescence search), throws an exception
(An "exception" is any pitch which is not a fastball, curve, or
screwball)
> when a timeout
> is reached, and plays the best move found so far when it catches the
> exception
(easier said than done!)
>, after taking back whatever moves that it made
(see for example, Kasparov vs. J. Polgar)
> during the search when it timed out. It might not be the most
> elegant way to do things, but it works well enough.
(Point taken. Kasparov 1, Polgar 0)
> Just to make it clear, it's not my intent to belittle Sanny and his
> efforts. I know from personal experience how hard it is to write a
> bug-free chess program, and how bugs can sap the strength of a
> program. He's improved the quality of play over the last little
> while, to the point where it plays reasonably well for a Java applet.
> I'm a fan of all chess programs, big and small, and would just like to
> see Sanny's program be exactly what he advertises it to be.
Things are tough all over. Sanny needs people to buy
games in order to finance further improvements, but they
are unlikely to do so unless and until these improvements
are implemented. Zugzwang. (That's geek-speak for "any
move loses").
-- help bot
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Date: 02 Nov 2006 01:54:24
From: help bot
Subject: Re: A Little Improvement Done.
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Sanny wrote:
> > In my last few games, I noticed a disappearing,
> > incomplete game, which didn't bother me much since
> > these games are hardly world class anyway. I suspect
>
> Chess game at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
>
> This happens when by mistake you Press "Resign Game" Button.
>
> Or you have "Resign Game" button Selected and you Press any of the two
> ENTER KEYS.
>
> Never Press Resign Game Button as it means you want to Resign the Game
> as you are loosing.
How is it possible to have the "resign game" button
*selected* when I am in another tab? And even if this
is possible, hitting "enter" in another tab should have
no effect in the GetClub tab, which is not the active
tab, but is merely running in the background.
A while back, we were advised to not have multiple
browsers open because this slows the program down
too much, so I started using a single (Firefox) browser,
utilizing the "tabs" feature to switch back and forth
when I hear the sound signalling that the program has
moved. I don't see much of a difference in speed, but
I suppose it is likely my computer's "resources" are
used more efficiently with tabs instead of multiple
browser instances.
BTW, a while back there was a complaint that your
site all too frequently pops up a new window whenever
it moves; the window I'm talking about is the player's
"home page", and it happens with my browser, too.
It's a bit scary, since there is a tendency to assume
the program has "detected" mate coming and is
resigning -- many moves in advance. Imagine the
feeling of defeating a chess program which can "see"
itself getting checkmated, say, ten or more moves
in advance via brute force. Very scary.
One thing I have noticed about GetClub is that,
unlike some programs, it does not grab your man
mid-air and decide for you where you are going to
put it down. This has been a problem for me in the
past, but Sanny's program lets *you* decide by
waiting for you to click on the destination square.
Obviously, the program could easily win far more
games if it were not programmed to let the players
decide regarding their own moves.
-- help bot
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Date: 02 Nov 2006 01:23:34
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: A Little Improvement Done.
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> In my last few games, I noticed a disappearing,
> incomplete game, which didn't bother me much since
> these games are hardly world class anyway. I suspect
Chess game at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
This happens when by mistake you Press "Resign Game" Button.
Or you have "Resign Game" button Selected and you Press any of the two
ENTER KEYS.
Never Press Resign Game Button as it means you want to Resign the Game
as you are loosing.
Bye
Sanny
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
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Date: 01 Nov 2006 21:56:20
From: help bot
Subject: Re: A Little Improvement Done.
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Sanny wrote:
> > Sanny, the fastest way to increase your monetary intake
> > would be to focus on improving the speed -- not the depth --
>
> Yes The game Speed has been Improved as you Adviced.
>
> It was easier earlier to improve the game earlier, Now it is very hard
> to even get it better by a factor of 2.
>
> Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
>
> Earlier Each Month GetClub Chess used to play twice faster.
>
> But Now it takes 3 Months to make it twice Faster.
>
> Now it is very hard even to understand how the Program is Thinking, So
> it is very diffuclt to modify it further.
>
> However if you want further Improvements, Just send me the Recorded
> Game with Analysis of the Wrong Moves.
>
> Here is how it Plays Now.
>
> Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
>
> Beginner Level: 10-20 Seconds
> Easy Level: 30-40 Seconds
> Normal Level: 1-2 Minutes
Well, that may be true for others, but on my computer
the program re-re-re-analyses positions such that a good
deal of time is wasted. It also takes much longer on
certain moves than others, but again, this could be a
problem on my end, not yours.
In my last few games, I noticed a disappearing,
incomplete game, which didn't bother me much since
these games are hardly world class anyway. I suspect
it happenned because I allowed too much time to elapse
before resuming. But my very last game was ended
abruptly, with my new game total showing that I had
lost! How I could lose is beyong my powers of
imagination, for I was very close to delivering checkmate
and had already won the computer's Queen for a Bishop.
At the time, I had another tab open and was reading in
it when the usual new browser window suddenly
appeared -- you know, the one where I get to replay all
my brilliant moves which led up to the win. Only this
time it was (I assume) a loss, yet all my windows were
frozen and I had to shut down and reboot. In any case,
anyone who plays the program on whatever level that
game was will get some extra rating points due to this
freak error.
-- help bot
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Date: 02 Nov 2006 10:24:59
From: Tony M
Subject: Re: A Little Improvement Done.
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On 1 Nov 2006 21:56:20 -0800, "help bot" <[email protected] >
wrote:
>
>Sanny wrote:
>> > Sanny, the fastest way to increase your monetary intake
>> > would be to focus on improving the speed -- not the depth --
>>
>> Yes The game Speed has been Improved as you Adviced.
>>
>> It was easier earlier to improve the game earlier, Now it is very hard
>> to even get it better by a factor of 2.
>>
>> Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
>>
>> Earlier Each Month GetClub Chess used to play twice faster.
>>
>> But Now it takes 3 Months to make it twice Faster.
>>
>> Now it is very hard even to understand how the Program is Thinking, So
>> it is very diffuclt to modify it further.
>>
>> However if you want further Improvements, Just send me the Recorded
>> Game with Analysis of the Wrong Moves.
>>
>> Here is how it Plays Now.
>>
>> Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
>>
>> Beginner Level: 10-20 Seconds
>> Easy Level: 30-40 Seconds
>> Normal Level: 1-2 Minutes
>
>
> Well, that may be true for others, but on my computer
>the program re-re-re-analyses positions such that a good
>deal of time is wasted.
I've seen the number in the thinking output do funky things, too.
Without looking at the source, it's hard to say whether Sanny has a
bug in his search, or whether the program is merely giving incorrect
thinking output, or whether the number is something other than actual
search depth. The program doesn't product a lot of thinking output,
but it's understandable for a pay site not to give a player too much
info to work with.
> It also takes much longer on
>certain moves than others, but again, this could be a
>problem on my end, not yours.
>
It's standard behavior for Sanny's program, from what I've seen. A
highly tactical position, or a position with several equally good
alternatives can cause a deep think. This is a result of not having a
proper time control.
It would be nice if Sanny got the time control to work correctly. It
seems to be the most common complaint about his program (not
necessarily from you, help bot, but in general), and it really would
make the playing experience more enjoyable. Plus, people might be more
willing to pay if they aren't getting frustrated by overly long
thinking times.
I made an earlier post recommending that Sanny look at the source of
the Java version of TCSP for an idea on implementing a time control so
that a program plays in exactly x number of seconds. I made the
recommendation because TSCP handles it in a simple way, and in only
about a dozen lines of code.
In Java/chess programming speak (help bot, you may want to skip this
paragraph, it's hellaciously geeky), TSCP puts the entire root search
in a try block, checks for a timeout every 1024 nodes (both in the
alpha/beta and quiescence search), throws an exception when a timeout
is reached, and plays the best move found so far when it catches the
exception, after taking back whatever moves that it made during the
search when it timed out. It might not be the most elegant way to do
things, but it works well enough.
Just to make it clear, it's not my intent to belittle Sanny and his
efforts. I know from personal experience how hard it is to write a
bug-free chess program, and how bugs can sap the strength of a
program. He's improved the quality of play over the last little
while, to the point where it plays reasonably well for a Java applet.
I'm a fan of all chess programs, big and small, and would just like to
see Sanny's program be exactly what he advertises it to be.
> In my last few games, I noticed a disappearing,
>incomplete game, which didn't bother me much since
>these games are hardly world class anyway. I suspect
>it happenned because I allowed too much time to elapse
>before resuming. But my very last game was ended
>abruptly, with my new game total showing that I had
>lost! How I could lose is beyong my powers of
>imagination, for I was very close to delivering checkmate
>and had already won the computer's Queen for a Bishop.
>At the time, I had another tab open and was reading in
>it when the usual new browser window suddenly
>appeared -- you know, the one where I get to replay all
>my brilliant moves which led up to the win. Only this
>time it was (I assume) a loss, yet all my windows were
>frozen and I had to shut down and reboot. In any case,
>anyone who plays the program on whatever level that
>game was will get some extra rating points due to this
>freak error.
>
I'll let Sanny handle that one, no idea what's going on there.
> -- help bot
Tony
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Date: 01 Nov 2006 04:40:59
From: Sanny
Subject: A Little Improvement Done.
|
> Sanny, the fastest way to increase your monetary intake
> would be to focus on improving the speed -- not the depth --
Yes The game Speed has been Improved as you Adviced.
It was easier earlier to improve the game earlier, Now it is very hard
to even get it better by a factor of 2.
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
Earlier Each Month GetClub Chess used to play twice faster.
But Now it takes 3 Months to make it twice Faster.
Now it is very hard even to understand how the Program is Thinking, So
it is very diffuclt to modify it further.
However if you want further Improvements, Just send me the Recorded
Game with Analysis of the Wrong Moves.
Here is how it Plays Now.
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
Beginner Level: 10-20 Seconds
Easy Level: 30-40 Seconds
Normal Level: 1-2 Minutes
Bye
Sanny
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
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Date: 30 Oct 2006 21:42:54
From: help bot
Subject: Re: GetClub Game Development Stopped due to Money
|
Sanny wrote:
> > Currently the game plays good enough to be played as a free Game. But
> > further improvements can come only when we get back enough Money for
> > further Improvements.
>
> However Today a bit of improvement was done. So you will find a bit
> faster and better Game Play.
>
> Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html (Faster Game)
>
> But further Improvents are Stopped till Lots of people Start Playing
> and we get enough income to fund Improvements.
Sanny, the fastest way to increase your monetary intake
would be to focus on improving the speed -- not the depth --
of your program's responses. I have noticed that the
displayed depth (assumming this is not merely a ploy)
has improved dramatically, which would seem to indicate
an improvement in strength of play. But what you really
need to do *first* is get the response times on the lower
levels down to under a minute per move, so players are
not discouraged by the slowness of play. It's okay for the
highest level(s) to take a long time for each move, but at
least on the Beginner level a player ought to be able to
play a game without switching to another browser to kill
some time while waiting for the program to move in the
middlegame.
Another area which needs improvement is the handling
of drawn games.
You might try steering traffic to your Web site by an
exchange of advertisements. For example, in exchange
for a small ad for another Web site on yours, someone
might be willing to place a small ad for yours, on theirs.
Just an idea.
Keep trying -- don't give up hope. (But remember, even
with gazillions of dollars and hoardes of programmers,
there is no way your program will ever be as good as I
am at chess.) ; >D
-- help bot
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Date: 30 Oct 2006 15:58:04
From: Nick
Subject: Re: GetClub Game Development Stopped due to Money
|
Dave (from the UK) wrote:
> Sanny wrote:
> > Now, I am feeling uncertain about the GetClub Game Development.
At least several writers in rec.games.chess.* have offered some
good advice to Sanny about how to improve his chess engine.
Sanny has 'responded' by ignoring their advice and sometimes
also by insulting them.
> > It is taking lot of money, While the response of players was
> > not so good as was predicted 6 months back.
Who, other than Sanny, predicted that?
I *emphatically* told Sanny that his chess engine was
the worst that I have ever seen, and I expected that it
would be a commercial failure.
> > We need at least $100- $200/month to keep
> > improving the Game.
Why is there any need 'to keep improving the Game'?
Has not Sanny proclaimed many times that 'all problems
have been rectified now'?
> That's cheap !!! You have often posted mentioning a "team of
> programmers". Where do you get a team of programmers for $100-=A3200 /
> month? I would have thought that would be the rate of one competent
> programmer for 1 day - not a team for a month.
If you were a competent computer programmer, then
would be desperate or foolish enough to work for Sanny?
--Nick
> > Now, we will not invest our Time and Money in Developing
> > this Chess game further.
>
> Does that mean an end to the spam too?
>
> > Purchase More Games at:
> > http://www.getclub.com/Secured/Purchase_Games.php?Game=3D10.00
>
> Well, perhaps this will be the last post with all the spam - we can but
> hope!
> --
> Dave (from the UK)
>
> Please note my email address changes periodically to avoid spam.
> It is always of the form: [email protected]
> Hitting reply will work for a few months only - later set it manually.
>=20
> http://witm.sourceforge.net/ (Web based Mathematica front end)
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Date: 30 Oct 2006 14:06:05
From: Dave (from the UK)
Subject: Re: GetClub Game Development Stopped due to Money
|
Sanny wrote:
> Now, I am feeling uncertain about the GetClub Game Development. It is
> taking lot of money, While the response of players was not so good as
> was predicted 6 months back. We need atleast $100- $200/month to keep
> improving the Game.
That's cheap !!! You have often posted mentioning a "team of
programmers". Where do you get a team of programmers for $100-�200 /
month? I would have thought that would be the rate of one competent
programmer for 1 day - not a team for a month.
> Now, we will not invest our Time and Money in Developing this Chess
> game further.
Does that mean an end to the spam too?
> Purchase More Games at:
> http://www.getclub.com/Secured/Purchase_Games.php?Game=10.00
Well, perhaps this will be the last post with all the spam - we can but
hope!
--
Dave (from the UK)
Please note my email address changes periodically to avoid spam.
It is always of the form: [email protected]
Hitting reply will work for a few months only - later set it manually.
http://witm.sourceforge.net/ (Web based Mathematica front end)
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Date: 30 Oct 2006 16:04:20
From: David Richerby
Subject: Re: GetClub Game Development Stopped due to Money
|
Dave (from the UK) <[email protected] > wrote:
> Sanny wrote:
>> We need atleast $100- $200/month to keep improving the Game.
>
> That's cheap !!! You have often posted mentioning a "team of
> programmers". Where do you get a team of programmers for $100-�200 /
> month?
India.
> I would have thought that would be the rate of one competent
> programmer for 1 day - not a team for a month.
Now you see the appeal of outsourcing programming work to India? Of
course, it's not necessarily good value. I'd have thought that a
competent programmer working full-time could produce an engine of the
quality of Sanny's within a couple of weeks. So, you get to choose
twelve days at $x/day or twelve months at $x/month. I know which I'd
rather have.
Dave.
--
David Richerby Perforated Wine (TM): it's like a
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ vintage Beaujolais but it's full
of holes!
|
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Date: 30 Oct 2006 17:41:59
From: Thomas T. Veldhouse
Subject: Re: GetClub Game Development Stopped due to Money
|
David Richerby <[email protected] > wrote:
>
> Now you see the appeal of outsourcing programming work to India? Of
> course, it's not necessarily good value. I'd have thought that a
> competent programmer working full-time could produce an engine of the
> quality of Sanny's within a couple of weeks. So, you get to choose
> twelve days at $x/day or twelve months at $x/month. I know which I'd
> rather have.
>
Even at $10 / hour, which is a typical rate for entry level engineers in
India, is still less than three working days. No, Sanny is a lone programmer
... judging by his English, perhaps he is from India as well.
$200 doesn't buy much of an engineer little enough a team of them.
--
Thomas T. Veldhouse
Key Fingerprint: D281 77A5 63EE 82C5 5E68 00E4 7868 0ADC 4EFB 39F0
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Date: 30 Oct 2006 03:44:21
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: GetClub Game Development Stopped due to Money
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> Currently the game plays good enough to be played as a free Game. But
> further improvements can come only when we get back enough Money for
> further Improvements.
However Today a bit of improvement was done. So you will find a bit
faster and better Game Play.
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html (Faster Game)
But further Improvents are Stopped till Lots of people Start Playing
and we get enough income to fund Improvements.
Bye
Sanny
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
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