Game playing tougher than ever.

Main

Date: 04 Aug 2006 01:53:28
From: Sanny
Subject: Game playing tougher than ever.

Recently the game has been improved further allowing it to make better
moves

It would be really difficult to get a win now.

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

Below Problems Rectified.

1. 2 openings corrected (As nomorechess played an unusual opening
getting a pawn)
2. Your game is saved and you can play it anytime again within 10
hours.
3. Game makes better Moves than earlier (Now, Do not play aimlessly)
4. It will look for all moves before declaring "Check Mate" (Taylor
kingston game was stopped in between)

Start a game : http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

So with the above 4 game improvements it will reach new heights.

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

Date: 18 Aug 2006 10:00:48
From: Taylor Kingston
Subject: Re: "Tough Fight" need 42 Moves to win it

Dave (from the UK) wrote:
> Taylor Kingston wrote:
>
> > I've decided to try to reach a score of 50-0 against Sanny's program,
> > then retire. You're welcome to top that if you like.
>
> What's the point?

There was a scene in the film "Cool Hand Luke" where Luke (Paul
Newman) boasted that he could eat 50 eggs. And in fact he did
(hardboiled). When the deed was done, someone asked him why. IIRC, he
replied "It just seemed like sumthin' to do."

Date: 18 Aug 2006 07:08:00
From: Taylor Kingston
Subject: Re: "Tough Fight" need 42 Moves to win it

help bot wrote:
> Riddle me this, Batman: if it is using Javascript, and it is
> also using my processor to calculate its moves, then why
> oh why will the thing refuse to move for hours on end?
>
> Right now, I am in the middle of a complex middlegame
> arising from a Caro Kan and I can't get anywhere, because
> of the slooooooooooooowness of Sanny's program. It seems
> to want to "think" 8 ply deep, but never seems to be able
> to finish that last ply. At this rate, Taylor Kingston and
> Richerby will blow by me by simply playing the next-lower
> level! It's all over, folks. These "inferior" players are going
> to snatch the big $5.00 prize this month and there is nothing
> anybody can do to stop them -- not even Zed!
>
> BTW, it hasn't blundered so much as a lowly pawn in this
> game, which is of course on the Advance level -- the highest
> one. Despite rumors that Sanny has, once again, "fixed" the
> speed problem, I would definitely recommend staying far
> away from this level for now. The only "fix" I can see is that
> you can't hardly beat this level anymore, because it won't ever
> move so you can complete a game.

Greg, I tried the "Master" level yesterday, and it moved fairly
quickly. Badly as usual, but not slowly, and it actually did play a
book line for the first six moves or so.
On my last game with the highest level, an errant mouse click found
me dropping a piece in the opening to an elementary combination. But
then it gave the piece right back to a comparably elementary tactic! It
was all downhill from there.
I've decided to try to reach a score of 50-0 against Sanny's program,
then retire. You're welcome to top that if you like.

Date: 18 Aug 2006 17:46:05
From: Dave (from the UK)
Subject: Re: "Tough Fight" need 42 Moves to win it

Taylor Kingston wrote:

> I've decided to try to reach a score of 50-0 against Sanny's program,
> then retire. You're welcome to top that if you like.

What's the point?
--
Dave (from the UK)

Please note my email address changes periodically to avoid spam.
It is always of the form: [email protected]
Hitting reply will work for a few months only - later set it manually.

http://witm.sourceforge.net/ (Web based Mathematica front end)

Date: 18 Aug 2006 02:09:09
From: help bot
Subject: Re: "Tough Fight" need 42 Moves to win it

Wilma wrote:
> David Vancina <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
> > I looked at this site a week or two ago, just to see what all the fuss
> > was about. If I remember correctly the whole thing is Javascript.
> > While Java performance has improved dramatically over the years, through
> > implementation of JIT compilers and whatnot, I don't think there's been
> > any parallel improvement in Javascript performance. Is it even
> > *possible* to create a high-performance engine in Javascript?
> >
> >
> > [email protected] wrote:
> >> Beginner level takes 30 seconds per move. That's about the limit of my
> >> patience, and Jester plays 2100-level chess within that time.
> >
>
> You could write a profitable program that played at, say, a Class C level.
> The general public might be attracted to a site where they could beat the
> computer from time to time. I doubt that any professional programmer who
> wants to compete with Chessmaster or Fritz is going to write in Java,
> though.
>
> Wilma

Riddle me this, Batman: if it is using Javascript, and it is
also using my processor to calculate its moves, then why
oh why will the thing refuse to move for hours on end?

Right now, I am in the middle of a complex middlegame
arising from a Caro Kan and I can't get anywhere, because
of the slooooooooooooowness of Sanny's program. It seems
to want to "think" 8 ply deep, but never seems to be able
to finish that last ply. At this rate, Taylor Kingston and
Richerby will blow by me by simply playing the next-lower
level! It's all over, folks. These "inferior" players are going
to snatch the big $5.00 prize this month and there is nothing
anybody can do to stop them -- not even Zed!

BTW, it hasn't blundered so much as a lowly pawn in this
game, which is of course on the Advance level -- the highest
one. Despite rumors that Sanny has, once again, "fixed" the
speed problem, I would definitely recommend staying far
away from this level for now. The only "fix" I can see is that
you can't hardly beat this level anymore, because it won't ever
move so you can complete a game.

-- third place dude

Date: 17 Aug 2006 11:28:01
From: Rob
Subject: Re: "Tough Fight" need 42 Moves to win it

Ron wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> "Sanny" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Or play with Higher Levels, if your Rating is say 1700 then play a game
> > with Normal level and it will play as good as you are.
>
> If you want people to play on higher levels, you need to get the
> computer to play at the speed it say it'll play at. I don't have time to
> wait half an hour per move.

Ron,
Zed plays a bit faster and will chat wit you too.

http://tinyurl.com/s8ws3

Rob

Date: 07 Aug 2006 02:42:39
From: help bot
Subject: Re: "Tough Fight" need 42 Moves to win it

David Richerby wrote:
> Sanny <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Ron wrote:
> >> The game went 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.d4 Bb4+? 5.c3 Be7? 6.de
> >> h6?? 7.Qd5 Nxe5 8.Nxe5 Nf6 9.Qxf7 mate.
> >
> > The opening was corrected Now you cannot beat the Beginner level so
> > easily.
>
> You really don't get it, do you? Every time somebody beats your
> computer easily, you change the opening book so it doesn't get into
> that position again. What you need to do is change the program so it
> can see these incredibly simple mate threats and avoids them itself.
>
> Suppose your child gets hit by a car on a particular street. Your
> attitude is to tell him not to go to that street again because it's
> dangerous. Then he gets hit on another street so you tell him not to
> go there, either. What you should be doing is teaching him to cross
> the road safely.

I agree with this 100%.

Here is the fly in the noodle soup: this guy, Sanny,
needs skilled chess programming help very badly, and
he can't seem to get it. All he can seem to rustle up
hereabouts is derogatory reks and laughter at the
horrid results he has managed to achieve so far with
his supposed "team" of hack programmers.

Now I can try to offer him some very general advice,
such as going to rgc.computers or browsing the Web
for the proper chess programming techniques, with
which to replace whatever it is he is using now. But
I'm in no position to give detailed advice -- unlike say,
Phil Innes (supposedly) or Bob Hyatt.

Right now as I type, I am slaughtering the Advance
level with ease, and because I detect some serious
problems with short-range tactics even at this slooow
level, I know Sanny is not just out of touch, but
slogging down the wrong path in his methods. Tactics
are supposed to be the easy part for modern computers!

BTW, that's one TOUGH kid, to twice survive being hit
by a car! Rather than take any more chances, if I were
Sanny I would simply move to where they don't have
any cars. Let him get smacked into by pedestrians.

-- help not

Date: 06 Aug 2006 21:52:57
From: help bot
Subject: Re: "Tough Fight" need 42 Moves to win it

Sanny wrote:
> > > Beginner level plt ays at 1500 rating

snip

> One cannot descide rating from 1-2 games. Play 5-6 games with Beginner
> Level and you will find it is playing like an 1500 rating.
>
> Beginner level plays at 1500 rating
> Easy level play as 1600 rating,
> Normal Level as 1700 rating
> Master Level as 1800 rating
> Advance Level plays at 1900 rating.
>
> Or play with Higher Levels, if your Rating is say 1700 then play a game
> with Normal level and it will play as good as you are.

Sanny, I have a special request: could you possibly add
about fouteen more levels (above Advance) so that I, too,
can have a sparring opponent worthy of my own level?
Thanks.

-- help bot (~3200 GC)

Date: 06 Aug 2006 08:01:45
From: Taylor Kingston
Subject: Re: "Tough Fight" need 42 Moves to win it

Sanny wrote:

> Beginner level plays at 1500 rating
> Easy level play as 1600 rating,
> Normal Level as 1700 rating
> Master Level as 1800 rating
> Advance Level plays at 1900 rating.

Nonsense. My USCF OTB rating is 1811, I've played every level several
times, scoring 39-0, and it has never even given me a difficult game.
According to Dr. Elo's formulae, you don't see that kind of performance
unless the rating difference is at least 650 points. Therefore I would
conclude that your program, at its very best, plays at an elo rating of
about 1100-1150.

Date: 06 Aug 2006 00:55:45
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: "Tough Fight" need 42 Moves to win it

> > Beginner level plt ays at 1500 rating
> >
> >Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

>
> That's preposterous. Your engine is nowhere close to 1500-level. If it
> were, It would be a close fight between me and it, and that's not the
> case... I had an easy time from move 10. Below is a good game by a USCF
> 1400-level player against me at G/15.
>
> [White "likesforests"]
> [Black "NN"]
> [Result "1/2-1/2"]
>
> 1. d4 Nf6 2. Nc3 d5 3. Bg5 e6 4. Nf3 Nbd7 5. Ne5 h6 6. Nxd7 Bxd7 7.
> Bxf6 Qxf6 8. e4 dxe4 9. Nxe4 Qh4 10. Bd3 Bb4+ 11. c3 Ba5 12. g3 Qe7 13.
> Nc5 Bc6 14. O-O O-O 15. Be4 Bb5 16. Re1 Bb6 17. Nxb7 Rac8 18. Nc5 Bxc5
> 19. dxc5 Rfd8 20. Qc2 Qxc5 21. a4 Bc4 22. b3 Bd5 23. Bxd5 exd5 24. b4
> Qc4 25. Rac1 Re8 26. Rxe8+ Rxe8 27. a5 Re2 28. Qb1 Qg4 29. Re1 Rxe1+
> 30. Qxe1 Qc4 31. Qe8+ Kh7 32. Qxf7 Qxc3 33. Qxd5 Qxb4 34. Qf5+ Kh8 35.
> Qc8+ Kh7 36. Qxc7 a6 1/2-1/2

One cannot descide rating from 1-2 games. Play 5-6 games with Beginner
Level and you will find it is playing like an 1500 rating.

Beginner level plays at 1500 rating
Easy level play as 1600 rating,
Normal Level as 1700 rating
Master Level as 1800 rating
Advance Level plays at 1900 rating.

Or play with Higher Levels, if your Rating is say 1700 then play a game
with Normal level and it will play as good as you are.

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

Date: 06 Aug 2006 20:47:04
From: Ron
Subject: Re: "Tough Fight" need 42 Moves to win it

In article <[email protected] >,
"Sanny" <[email protected] > wrote:

> Or play with Higher Levels, if your Rating is say 1700 then play a game
> with Normal level and it will play as good as you are.

If you want people to play on higher levels, you need to get the
computer to play at the speed it say it'll play at. I don't have time to
wait half an hour per move.

Date: 06 Aug 2006 00:36:52
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: "Tough Fight" need 42 Moves to win it

> I just played it again at beginner level.
>
> The game went 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.d4 Bb4+? 5.c3 Be7? 6.de h6??
> 7.Qd5 Nxe5 8.Nxe5 Nf6 9.Qxf7 mate.
>
> I've played 1100-rated players who were substantially better than this.
> From the moment I got it out of book, every move it made was terrible.
> Only 7. ... Nxe5 is not abysmal, but, of course, that's the only move to
> avoid an immediate mate.

The opening was corrected Now you cannot beat the Beginner level so
easily.

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

Date: 07 Aug 2006 09:47:35
From: David Richerby
Subject: Re: "Tough Fight" need 42 Moves to win it

Sanny <[email protected] > wrote:
> Ron wrote:
>> The game went 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.d4 Bb4+? 5.c3 Be7? 6.de
>> h6?? 7.Qd5 Nxe5 8.Nxe5 Nf6 9.Qxf7 mate.
>
> The opening was corrected Now you cannot beat the Beginner level so
> easily.

You really don't get it, do you? Every time somebody beats your
computer easily, you change the opening book so it doesn't get into
that position again. What you need to do is change the program so it
can see these incredibly simple mate threats and avoids them itself.

Suppose your child gets hit by a car on a particular street. Your
attitude is to tell him not to go to that street again because it's
dangerous. Then he gets hit on another street so you tell him not to
go there, either. What you should be doing is teaching him to cross
the road safely.

Dave.

--
David Richerby Crystal Newspaper (TM): it's like a
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ daily broadsheet but it's completely
transparent!

Date: 06 Aug 2006 20:53:32
From: Ron
Subject: Re: "Tough Fight" need 42 Moves to win it

In article <[email protected] >,
"Sanny" <[email protected] > wrote:

> > I just played it again at beginner level.
> >
> > The game went 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.d4 Bb4+? 5.c3 Be7? 6.de h6??
> > 7.Qd5 Nxe5 8.Nxe5 Nf6 9.Qxf7 mate.
> >
> > I've played 1100-rated players who were substantially better than this.
> > From the moment I got it out of book, every move it made was terrible.
> > Only 7. ... Nxe5 is not abysmal, but, of course, that's the only move to
> > avoid an immediate mate.
>
> The opening was corrected Now you cannot beat the Beginner level so
> easily.

No, you didn't, because I just played the same first seven moves
(acheiving a forced mate) against the program.

Date: 05 Aug 2006 13:08:07
From:
Subject: Re: "Tough Fight" need 42 Moves to win it

Sanny wrote:
> >
> > Beginner level takes 30 seconds per move. That's about the limit of my
> > patience, and Jester plays 2100-level chess within that time. 3 months
> > ago your engine played 1200-level chess. If I were to guess, I would
> > say it now plays 1300-level chess. It has a long way to go to beat
> > intermediate-level players like me on a regular basis.
>
> Beginner level plt ays at 1500 rating

That's preposterous. Your engine is nowhere close to 1500-level. If it
were, It would be a close fight between me and it, and that's not the
case... I had an easy time from move 10. Below is a good game by a USCF
1400-level player against me at G/15.

[White "likesforests"]
[Black "NN"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]

1. d4 Nf6 2. Nc3 d5 3. Bg5 e6 4. Nf3 Nbd7 5. Ne5 h6 6. Nxd7 Bxd7 7.
Bxf6 Qxf6 8. e4 dxe4 9. Nxe4 Qh4 10. Bd3 Bb4+ 11. c3 Ba5 12. g3 Qe7 13.
Nc5 Bc6 14. O-O O-O 15. Be4 Bb5 16. Re1 Bb6 17. Nxb7 Rac8 18. Nc5 Bxc5
19. dxc5 Rfd8 20. Qc2 Qxc5 21. a4 Bc4 22. b3 Bd5 23. Bxd5 exd5 24. b4
Qc4 25. Rac1 Re8 26. Rxe8+ Rxe8 27. a5 Re2 28. Qb1 Qg4 29. Re1 Rxe1+
30. Qxe1 Qc4 31. Qe8+ Kh7 32. Qxf7 Qxc3 33. Qxd5 Qxb4 34. Qf5+ Kh8 35.
Qc8+ Kh7 36. Qxc7 a6 1/2-1/2

Note: On turn 17, I missed a win. On Turn 36 I had a better position
but we both had 4-6 seconds on our clocks and so agreed to a draw.

Date: 05 Aug 2006 06:05:22
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: "Tough Fight" need 42 Moves to win it

>
> Beginner level takes 30 seconds per move. That's about the limit of my
> patience, and Jester plays 2100-level chess within that time. 3 months
> ago your engine played 1200-level chess. If I were to guess, I would
> say it now plays 1300-level chess. It has a long way to go to beat
> intermediate-level players like me on a regular basis.

Its play has improved a lot Play a game with Easy level and see how it
plays. I think

Beginner level plays at 1500 rating
Easy level play as 1600 rating,
Normal Level as 1700 rating
Master Level as 1800 rating
Advance Level plays at 1900 rating.

I think this is the minimum these levels will play. Earlier Master
Level was playing at 1400 Rating. There is an improvement of +400
Rating in last month.

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

Date: 05 Aug 2006 17:59:22
From: Ron
Subject: Re: "Tough Fight" need 42 Moves to win it

In article <[email protected] >,
"Sanny" <[email protected] > wrote:

> Its play has improved a lot Play a game with Easy level and see how it
> plays. I think
>
> Beginner level plays at 1500 rating
> Easy level play as 1600 rating,
> Normal Level as 1700 rating
> Master Level as 1800 rating
> Advance Level plays at 1900 rating.

This is wildly optimistic.

I've played it at beginner level and it's not even CLOSE to 1500.

Date: 05 Aug 2006 18:15:07
From: Ron
Subject: Re: "Tough Fight" need 42 Moves to win it

In article
<[email protected] >,
Ron <[email protected] > wrote:

> This is wildly optimistic.
>
> I've played it at beginner level and it's not even CLOSE to 1500.

I just played it again at beginner level.

The game went 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.d4 Bb4+? 5.c3 Be7? 6.de h6??
7.Qd5 Nxe5 8.Nxe5 Nf6 9.Qxf7 mate.

I've played 1100-rated players who were substantially better than this.
From the moment I got it out of book, every move it made was terrible.
Only 7. ... Nxe5 is not abysmal, but, of course, that's the only move to
avoid an immediate mate.

Date: 07 Aug 2006 09:39:24
From: David Richerby
Subject: Re: "Tough Fight" need 42 Moves to win it

[ Cross-post trimmed: this is off-topic in rgc.misc ]

Ron <[email protected] > wrote:
> The game went 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.d4 Bb4+? 5.c3 Be7? 6.de h6??
> 7.Qd5 Nxe5 8.Nxe5 Nf6 9.Qxf7 mate.
>
> I've played 1100-rated players who were substantially better than
> this. From the moment I got it out of book, every move it made was
> terrible. Only 7. ... Nxe5 is not abysmal, but, of course, that's
> the only move to avoid an immediate mate.

I think you're too harsh. 8... Nf6 also cannot be called bad since
any move at that point succumbs to mate in one. Perhaps 8... f6!? is
better as it doesn't drop any material. :-)

Dave.

--
David Richerby Enormous Boss (TM): it's like a middle
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ manager but it's huge!

Date: 05 Aug 2006 04:11:58
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: Tough Fight need 50-60 Moves to win it.

> For the average chess player, your program is probably just
> fine. But having come here to this newsgroup, you have,
> unfortunately, drawn in some of the best chess players in the
> entire universe! Players who are virtually impossible to beat.
> Not to mention near-IM Innes, 2300+ Taylor Kingston, and
> even Wlod. :>D
>
>

Yes true this newsgroop has all best players. My program is for comman
man not for Tournament Players. Its beginner level easily beats me and
all my friends but when tournament players Play they beat its all
levels.

It is very difficult to be better than a Human Brain.

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

Date: 05 Aug 2006 03:38:55
From: help bot
Subject: Re: Tough Fight need 50-60 Moves to win it.

Sanny wrote:

> > Most expert chess programmers have all sorts of tricks which
> > they use to speed up the search dramatically, and I am
> > pretty sure your team is missing out here.
> >
>
> Could you Explain, What Tricks they employ, So that I may add them to
> my game. I feel the game now is quite strong but it lacks correct
> postion calculation

I think what you need is help from an expert chess programmer,
which I am not. Some key terms: move-tree *pruning*, capture
and check *extentions*, *hashtables*.

For the average chess player, your program is probably just
fine. But having come here to this newsgroup, you have,
unfortunately, drawn in some of the best chess players in the
entire universe! Players who are virtually impossible to beat.
Not to mention near-IM Innes, 2300+ Taylor Kingston, and
even Wlod. : >D

> This Problem was rectified, Now on you will not be able to get its
> pieces so easily as in the game you last played. It was due to a
> program error not calculation mistake. And that error has been removed.

Sanny, you keep on saying this, but to no avail. Every time
you say you "fixed" a problem, a new one pops up in its
place. In essence, I keep winning because I see deeper and
know more. This is not something which can be "patched"
with a box full of band-aids. The truth is, if you had yet another,
higher level, let's call it "Ultimate", I would still crush your
program on a regular basis. The only difference is that it might
take me a week to finish a single game.

"One day, I just got good." -- me

Date: 07 Aug 2006 09:34:59
From: David Richerby
Subject: Re: Tough Fight need 50-60 Moves to win it.

[ Cross-post trimmed. This is off-topic in rgc.misc. ]

help bot <[email protected] > wrote:
> Sanny wrote:
>> Could you Explain, What Tricks they employ, So that I may add them
>> to my game. I feel the game now is quite strong but it lacks
>> correct postion calculation
>
> I think what you need is help from an expert chess programmer,
> which I am not. Some key terms: move-tree *pruning*, capture
> and check *extentions*, *hashtables*.

Google, on the other hand is (or, at least, knows someone who is).
Searching for `chess programming tutorial' will give you lots of
information.

Dave.

--
David Richerby Carnivorous Pants (TM): it's like a
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ well-tailored pair of trousers but it
eats flesh!

Date: 05 Aug 2006 03:13:36
From:
Subject: Re: "Tough Fight" need 42 Moves to win it

Sanny wrote:

> > Your program has no clue about king protection. Even as Black I managed
> > to destroy its defenses by turn 10 and mate by turn 42. I'm only a
> > Class B player. I'm certain Taylor Kingston playing as White would
> > manage a win in under 40 moves.
>
> That game you played was with Beginner Level, Higher Levels will give
> good chalange Play with its Easy and Normal Levels and see the
> difference.

Beginner level takes 30 seconds per move. That's about the limit of my
patience, and Jester plays 2100-level chess within that time. 3 months
ago your engine played 1200-level chess. If I were to guess, I would
say it now plays 1300-level chess. It has a long way to go to beat
intermediate-level players like me on a regular basis.

Date: 16 Aug 2006 12:54:20
From: David Vancina
Subject: Re: "Tough Fight" need 42 Moves to win it

I looked at this site a week or two ago, just to see what all the fuss
was about. If I remember correctly the whole thing is Javascript.
While Java performance has improved dramatically over the years, through
implementation of JIT compilers and whatnot, I don't think there's been
any parallel improvement in Javascript performance. Is it even
*possible* to create a high-performance engine in Javascript?

[email protected] wrote:
> Beginner level takes 30 seconds per move. That's about the limit of my
> patience, and Jester plays 2100-level chess within that time.

Date: 22 Aug 2006 10:44:02
From: David Richerby
Subject: Re: "Tough Fight" need 42 Moves to win it

David Vancina <[email protected] > wrote:
> I looked at this site a week or two ago, just to see what all the
> fuss was about. If I remember correctly the whole thing is
> Javascript. While Java performance has improved dramatically over
> the years, through implementation of JIT compilers and whatnot, I
> don't think there's been any parallel improvement in Javascript
> performance.

You're confusing Java (a portable programming language designed by Sun
Microsystems) and Javascript (a client-side scripting language for web
pages developed by Netscape, originally known as `LiveScript'). The
two are completely unrelated and, frankly, I'm surprised that Sun
didn't sue for the abuse of its tradeked name.

The program in question is written in Java.

> Is it even *possible* to create a high-performance engine in
> Javascript?

I very much doubt it.

Dave.

--
David Richerby Swiss Hungry Cheese (TM): it's like
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ a brick of cheese but it'll eat you
and it's made in Switzerland!

Date: 17 Aug 2006 01:35:30
From: Wilma
Subject: Re: "Tough Fight" need 42 Moves to win it

David Vancina <[email protected] > wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> I looked at this site a week or two ago, just to see what all the fuss
> was about. If I remember correctly the whole thing is Javascript.
> While Java performance has improved dramatically over the years, through
> implementation of JIT compilers and whatnot, I don't think there's been
> any parallel improvement in Javascript performance. Is it even
> *possible* to create a high-performance engine in Javascript?
>
>
> [email protected] wrote:
>> Beginner level takes 30 seconds per move. That's about the limit of my
>> patience, and Jester plays 2100-level chess within that time.
>

You could write a profitable program that played at, say, a Class C level.
The general public might be attracted to a site where they could beat the
computer from time to time. I doubt that any professional programmer who
wants to compete with Chessmaster or Fritz is going to write in Java,
though.

Wilma

Date: 05 Aug 2006 02:48:13
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: "Tough Fight" need 42 Moves to win it

>
> Your program has no clue about king protection. Even as Black I managed
> to destroy its defenses by turn 10 and mate by turn 42. I'm only a
> Class B player. I'm certain Taylor Kingston playing as White would
> manage a win in under 40 moves.
>

That game you played was with Beginner Level, Higher Levels will give
good chalange Play with its Easy and Normal Levels and see the
difference.

Bye
Sanjay

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

Date: 05 Aug 2006 02:43:10
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: Tough Fight need 50-60 Moves to win it.

> Most expert chess programmers have all sorts of tricks which
> they use to speed up the search dramatically, and I am
> pretty sure your team is missing out here.
>

Could you Explain, What Tricks they employ, So that I may add them to
my game. I feel the game now is quite strong but it lacks correct
postion calculation

This Problem was rectified, Now on you will not be able to get its
pieces so easily as in the game you last played. It was due to a
program error not calculation mistake. And that error has been removed.

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

Date: 07 Aug 2006 09:32:22
From: David Richerby
Subject: Re: Tough Fight need 50-60 Moves to win it.

[ Cross-post trimmed: this is off-topic in rgc.misc ]

Sanny <[email protected] > wrote:
> I feel the game now is quite strong but it lacks correct postion
> calculation

I feel that, as long as you continue to believe that your program is
quite strong, it isn't going to improve significantly. I can beat its
`master' level pretty easily and I'm a pretty weak player. (Rated
107BCF, which puts me in either the bottom or next-to-bottom section
of a British weekend tournament.)

Dave.

--
David Richerby Surprise Lead Apple (TM): it's like
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ a tasty fruit that weighs a ton but
not like you'd expect!

Date: 05 Aug 2006 02:36:39
From:
Subject: Re: "Tough Fight" need 42 Moves to win it

Sanny wrote:
> I played a game with Beginner Level, I was even unable to give a Check
> to the Opponents King and it Mated me in Middle Game. It brings a
> strong defence to protect its king.

> It will need you atleast 40 + moves to break its defence and another
> 10-20 moves to bring a Mate.

Your program has no clue about king protection. Even as Black I managed
to destroy its defenses by turn 10 and mate by turn 42. I'm only a
Class B player. I'm certain Taylor Kingston playing as White would
manage a win in under 40 moves.

> So where are you Bob/ Taylor Kingston/ Bonsai/ Nomorechess. What do you
> say. Are you able to beat it easily?

Fairly easily. Moves 1-5 were in my opening book. Moves 10-42 I was
confident I would win. It still has a long way to go.

Date: 05 Aug 2006 01:11:21
From: help bot
Subject: Re: Tough Fight need 50-60 Moves to win it.

Sanny wrote:
> I played a game with Beginner Level, I was even unable to give a Check
> to the Opponents King and it Mated me in Middle Game. It brings a
> strong defence to protect its king.
>
> Play a game at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
>
> I have seen other people games Now you cannot win it in Middle Game.
> You have to fight till end game to win with computer.
>
> It will need you atleast 40 + moves to break its defence and another
> 10-20 moves to bring a Mate.
>
> Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
>
> So where are you Bob/ Taylor Kingston/ Bonsai/ Nomorechess. What do you
> say. Are you able to beat it easily?

Sanny, in my opinion "Bob" is almost certainly using a
computer, and as such, yes, he can continue to beat your
program effortlessly, despite many improvements. Please
note that the very best of these programs, run on modern
hardware, exceed the Grandmaster level in terms of strength.
By "exceed" I mean they leave ordinary GMs (let's say USCF
2600) in the dust.

Taylor Kingston *was* at one time rated almost 2300 in
correspondence chess, and you can bet that he will not
be caught up to by any such improvements as you have
implemented in the past, or are likely to in the near future.

You need to realise that these are very strong players, and
your program, however much improved so far, has a very
long way to go before it will approach this high level of chess.
It's not that your program is all that bad; it's just that there
seems to be an issue with calculating speed, with not looking
deep enough to handle even short-range tactics properly.
Most expert chess programmers have all sorts of tricks which
they use to speed up the search dramatically, and I am
pretty sure your team is missing out here.

I don't know where Bonsai stands, as I have not looked at
any of his games yet. As for me (nomorechess), I have
some trouble generating "miniatures" (wins in under 20 or
25 moves) against your Advance level. They still come,
but not as easily or as often as before your improvements.
Still, the wins are not all that difficult to achieve, as your
program every once in a while plays a crazy, weak move
which loses material or else allows an obvious mating attack.
Again, this is not to say that your program is weak. It's
just that I am, like, totally awesome. : >D

-- help bot

Date: 05 Aug 2006 00:24:14
From: Sanny
Subject: Tough Fight need 50-60 Moves to win it.

I played a game with Beginner Level, I was even unable to give a Check
to the Opponents King and it Mated me in Middle Game. It brings a
strong defence to protect its king.

Play a game at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

I have seen other people games Now you cannot win it in Middle Game.
You have to fight till end game to win with computer.

It will need you atleast 40 + moves to break its defence and another
10-20 moves to bring a Mate.

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

So where are you Bob/ Taylor Kingston/ Bonsai/ Nomorechess. What do you
say. Are you able to beat it easily?

So now on you will be able to Mate it only after 40-50 Moves. And in
some games you may have to go till 60 Moves to win it.

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

Date: 04 Aug 2006 06:09:40
From: Sanny
Subject: Dave {from UK} Are you lost

Dave (from the UK) wrote:
> Sanny wrote:
> > Recently the game has been improved further allowing it to make better
> > moves
> >
> > It would be really difficult to get a win now.
> >
> > Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
> >

> Dave (from the UK)
>
> Please note my email address changes periodically to avoid spam.
> It is always of the form: [email protected]
> Hitting reply will work for a few months only - later set it manually.

"So that no one can catch you spamming arround."

>
> <SPAM WEBSITE> (Web based Mathematica front end) Stop it SPAMMER

THIS IS a CHESS GROUP not MATHS GROUP. post your messages to rec.maths
instead of a Chess group.

Earlier you brough a validator, Now you are complaing other things I
feel it shows my Game has really improved. Thats the reasion few people
are getting annoyed.

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

Have you seen your Validator gives 41 errors for www.google.com and
www.yahoo.com

My Program is improving at a very fast rate and soon it will outplay
good players. And I love it going better. And the players are enjoying
winning Prizes.

Dave (From UK) {Are you lost that you keep reminding people you are
from UK someone take me back home}

Dave {from wherever you are} stop talking nonsense be a little st. I
know 10 days back you were asking that you want to design a chess game
which language you should use) You are even not capable of developing a
chess game but you are advicing me who have developed much better than
you can ever think of.

Dave (from wherever you are) you have to learn a lot first get a Degree
than give your advices. Else fool arround and keep using that Validator
to browse websites.

Sorry, you look a bit stupid. But this world has many stupids So you
feel yourself clever.

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

Date: 04 Aug 2006 14:33:24
From: David Richerby
Subject: Re: Dave {from UK} Are you lost

Sanny <[email protected] > wrote:
> Dave (from the UK) wrote:
>> <SPAM WEBSITE> (Web based Mathematica front end) Stop it SPAMMER
>
> THIS IS a CHESS GROUP not MATHS GROUP. post your messages to rec.maths
> instead of a Chess group.

There's nothing wrong with putting a pointer to a website in one's
signature. It's entirely acceptable and vertainly doesn't constitute
spam. (NB: spam does not mean `E-mail/news postings I don't like.')

> Sorry, you look a bit stupid.

Um... Research shows that the incompetent seldom realise their
incompetence.

Dave.

--
David Richerby Technicolor Microsoft Toy (TM): it's
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ like a fun child's toy that's really
hard to use but it's in realistic
colour!

Date: 04 Aug 2006 05:52:50
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: Game playing tougher than ever.

[email protected] wrote:
> Sanny wrote:
> > It would be really difficult to get a win now.
>
> Your "new and improved" engine lost its first game. It's late, so my
> play was a bit sloppy.

You played with Beginner Level. That was a tough fight you win in 46
moves with Beginner Level.

So it means the Easy and Normal Level will be much difficult to win.

Now look at the recorded game Played by likesforests
http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?id=DM2470&game=Chess

It was a lot of gambit and sacrifices game

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

Date: 04 Aug 2006 11:22:47
From: David Richerby
Subject: Re: Game playing tougher than ever.

You misspelled `slower'.

Dave.

--
David Richerby Aluminium Apple (TM): it's like a
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ tasty fruit that's really light!

Date: 04 Aug 2006 11:06:22
From: Dave (from the UK)
Subject: Re: Game playing tougher than ever.

Sanny wrote:
> Recently the game has been improved further allowing it to make better
> moves
>
> It would be really difficult to get a win now.
>
> Play Chess at: <your usual spam>
>

I guess this request will not be acted on, but is there any chance you
could spend a bit less time spamming the newsgroups? Why not set up a
mailing list for those interested in your web site? There are more
announcements from you about your one web site than all the other chess
servers in the whole world. One does not get a minute by minute account
of changes at FICS, ICC or other.

--
Dave (from the UK)

Please note my email address changes periodically to avoid spam.
It is always of the form: [email protected]
Hitting reply will work for a few months only - later set it manually.

http://witm.sourceforge.net/ (Web based Mathematica front end)

Date: 04 Aug 2006 18:02:27
From: Simon Krahnke
Subject: Re: Game playing tougher than ever.

* Dave (from the UK) (12:06) schrieb:

> I guess this request will not be acted on, but is there any chance you
> could spend a bit less time spamming the newsgroups?

Oh, come on. Unlike most of the crap posted to this group it's about
computer chess.

And it's amusing.

mfg, simon .... l

Date: 04 Aug 2006 18:18:37
From: David Richerby
Subject: Re: Game playing tougher than ever.

Simon Krahnke <[email protected] > wrote:
> Unlike most of the crap posted to this group it's about computer
> chess.

Killfiling anything cross-posted to rec.games.chess.politics catches
most of the off-topic dross, IME.

Dave.
--
David Richerby Expensive Flammable Peanut (TM): it's
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ like a roasted nut but it burns really
easily and it'll break the bank!

Date: 04 Aug 2006 11:22:21
From: David Richerby
Subject: Re: Game playing tougher than ever.

Dave (from the UK) <[email protected] > wrote:
> I guess this request will not be acted on, but is there any chance
> you could spend a bit less time spamming the newsgroups? Why not set
> up a mailing list for those interested in your web site? There are
> more announcements from you about your one web site than all the
> other chess servers in the whole world. One does not get a minute by
> minute account of changes at FICS, ICC or other.

Partly that's because FICS is reasonably stable: there aren't all that
many changes to announce, these days. Anyway, I second the motion.

Dave.

--
David Richerby Surprise Cat (TM): it's like a cuddly
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ pet but not like you'd expect!

Date: 04 Aug 2006 02:49:39
From:
Subject: Re: Game playing tougher than ever.

Sanny wrote:
> It would be really difficult to get a win now.

Your "new and improved" engine lost its first game. It's late, so my
play was a bit sloppy.