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Main
Date: 15 Sep 2007 00:37:17
From: Sanny
Subject: Can Fritz8 beat GetClub Master Level.
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I am asking for a Challenge between Frits8 vs Master Level, Can Fritz
8 beat Master Level of GetClub Chess?
What do Taylor Kingston Say.
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
Now All will cry by the strength of GetClub Chess, Ha Ha Ha....
GetClub Chess will beat all Players whether Strong or weak. Ha Ha
Ha....
Yesterday Beginner Level beat a player 4 times and was able to draw a
game with Nomorechess So I think the game play has improved a lot.
Can Zebediah & Taylor Kingston Still beat its Master Level without
using Computer?
Can Nomorechess beat the Easy & Normal Levels?
I love seeing GetClub winning the games!!!
Bye
Sanny
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
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Date: 18 Sep 2007 15:01:39
From: help bot
Subject: Re: Can Fritz8 beat GetClub Master Level.
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On Sep 18, 3:34 pm, TrekNoid <[email protected] > wrote:
> > > Your 'Easy' mode advertises 10-20 second moves... yet in my games, it
> > > regularly took longer than 20 seconds to make a decision.
>
> > You have read wrong.
>
> > Beginner: 10-20 sec/move
> > Easy : 30-40 sec/move
> > Normal: 1-2 min/move
> > Master: 5-10 min/move
>
> > Bye
> > Sanny
>
> > Play Chess at:http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
>
> I've got a screen capture of your game on beginner level taking 144
> seconds to make a move... It actually took longer, I just got tired of
> Screen Capturing :) It's following move, it took 48 seconds...
In my experience, the program's actual speed of play
varies *dramatically*, from faster than advertised, to
much, much, much slower. I had one game last night
in which I was not 100% certain that I had not selected
by mistake the Advance level, for it would not move.
But later on, it began making moves very quickly, as if
suddenly awakened from a deep slumber. How this
happens with a Java applet running on my own
computer escapes me, but it could have something to
do with communications problems.
-- help bot
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Date: 18 Sep 2007 14:55:02
From: help bot
Subject: Re: Can Fritz8 beat GetClub Master Level.
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On Sep 17, 4:30 pm, Taylor Kingston <[email protected] > wrote:
> > >>> Nonsense. Yesterday afternoon I started a game between your program
> > >>> and Fritz8. GetClub moved so slowly I could not finish the game until
> > >>> this morning, but essentially the game was over by the 7th move, when
> > >>> GetClub threw away a piece for almost nothing, and then played so
> > >>> idiotically that it lost any chance for compensation. Here is the
> > >>> game:
>
> > >> So please try again with Opening moves. as this game was not played
> > >> with opening book for some reasion.
>
> > > Sanny, as I said before, I am not wasting any more time with your
> > > silly program. Or on replying to your silly posts.
>
> > Apparently, you ... mis-spoke ...
>
> No, Ken. Unless I have had a memory lapse, the above post was the
> first time that I said I would no longer reply to Sanny. Since then I
> have not, therefore you and Mr. Veldhouse are mistaken in this regard.
> The "as I before" applied to wasting time on his program.
Technically, although "Zeb" Kingston did not predict
that he was going to stop wasting his time here, he
used the present tense as in "I am not wasting time";
this explains the contradiction noted by other GetClub
hecklers. If you are typing a message which says that
you aren't typing, you have just contradicted yourself.
Of course, we know that what was *meant* was that
TK was not *going to* waste any more time after that
final post, which will not be followed by any others,
ever, on this subject. It's perfectly correct, as we shall
see in time; of that there can be no doubt. TK has
spoken his final words on this subject, and he certainly
showed a good deal of patience in waiting until now to
leave it alone. Forever. And always. As we shall see.
-- help bot
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Date: 18 Sep 2007 20:34:44
From: TrekNoid
Subject: Re: Can Fritz8 beat GetClub Master Level.
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On Sep 18, 11:09 am, Sanny <[email protected] > wrote:
> > One piece of feedback, though:
>
> > Your 'Easy' mode advertises 10-20 second moves... yet in my games, it
> > regularly took longer than 20 seconds to make a decision.
>
> You have read wrong.
>
> Beginner: 10-20 sec/move
> Easy : 30-40 sec/move
> Normal: 1-2 min/move
> Master: 5-10 min/move
>
> Bye
> Sanny
>
> Play Chess at:http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
I've got a screen capture of your game on beginner level taking 144
seconds to make a move... It actually took longer, I just got tired of
Screen Capturing :) It's following move, it took 48 seconds...
If you'd like, I'll e-mail you the shot.
TrekNoid
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Date: 19 Sep 2007 11:15:24
From: Ralf Callenberg
Subject: Re: Can Fritz8 beat GetClub Master Level.
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18.09.2007 22:34, TrekNoid:
> I've got a screen capture of your game on beginner level taking 144
> seconds to make a move...
Sanny makes up the strength of his program as well as the time it takes
to make moves. He did this since he appeared here a year ago and didn't
change his attitude since. Yesterday somehow I couldn't resist and play
a game on easy level. Of course it still plays like shit (every 1300
player in my chess club would play more reasonable) and at the end,
there was a position where it had exactly one legal move (with a mate in
three afterwards) - and it took about 10 minutes to find this one move!
Greetings,
Ralf
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Date: 18 Sep 2007 09:09:27
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: Can Fritz8 beat GetClub Master Level.
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> One piece of feedback, though:
>
> Your 'Easy' mode advertises 10-20 second moves... yet in my games, it
> regularly took longer than 20 seconds to make a decision.
>
You have read wrong.
Beginner: 10-20 sec/move
Easy : 30-40 sec/move
Normal: 1-2 min/move
Master: 5-10 min/move
Bye
Sanny
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
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Date: 17 Sep 2007 16:44:53
From: help bot
Subject: Re: Can Fritz8 beat GetClub Master Level.
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On Sep 17, 10:45 am, "Thomas T. Veldhouse" <[email protected] > wrote:
> In rec.games.chess.computer Taylor Kingston <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
> > Sanny, as I said before, I am not wasting any more time with your
> > silly program. Or on replying to your silly posts.
>
> You just did :-)
Say, do you suppose that Sanny's program is just
getting too strong for Zeb/Taylor Kingston to handle?
What with all the thousands of "improvements", the
ply depth of search extending beyond what one can
count on the fingers of one hand, and the opening
book -- it is a wonder that any of us have managed
to best Sanny's program this long. Even IM Innes,
armed to the teeth with the latest version of Rybka,
has disappeared. I think the strength of Sanny's
program is to blame; those who can't stand the heat,
soon leave the kitchen.
-- help bot
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Date: 17 Sep 2007 16:38:40
From: help bot
Subject: Re: Can Fritz8 beat GetClub Master Level.
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On Sep 17, 3:10 am, Sanny <[email protected] > wrote:
> > 1. Nf3 d5
> > 2. d4 Nf6
> > 3. Bg5 Ne4
>
> > This is the Trompowski, and it was only when GetClub
> > played the horrible 4. Qd3 that it got into trouble.
>
> So the Master was playing correct Opening moves for itself. Thats
> good.
>
> > Even so, the sac' on f7 was completely un-called for;
> > the Knight should have just retreated. Something is
> > horribly wrong if the program sac's a piece for spite
> > checks, when there is no substantive attack. Hint:
> > you cannot conduct an attack by sacrificing the only
> > piece you have developed, because after the sacrifice,
> > that piece can attack no more. Duh!
>
> Here Kinight had no place to move. If it comes back Knight & Queen get
> into fork by pawn.
Stop! You have made a simple tactical error in your
analysis. First, although 7. Nh3 is much better for
Black, this is still better than hanging a piece. But the
real flaw in your thinking is much too shallow calculation:
1. Nf3 d5
2. d4 Nf6
3. Bg5 Ne4
4. Qd3 Nxg5
5. Nxg5 e5
6. h4 h6
7. Nf3 e4 (forking two pieces)
8. Qe3!
Both White pieces escape intact. This is a perfect
example of why I keep telling you to focus on tactics.
Do you recall the odds matches where Rybka gave
up a random pawn for nothing against grandmasters
and still managed to win? Tactics; they couldn't
quite handle her tactical skill, even in clearly better
positions where the possibility of counterplay was
severely limited due to the gambit pawn.
> bIf it goes at h3, Then pawn at h4 can be captured
> by queen. So always there was a loss of a Pawn.
Let's look at this for a moment:
6. h4 h6
7. Nh3 Qxh4
8. dxe5
Now, the tactics are far from over as Black can try
...Qb4+ or ...Nc6, but White is not down anything and
he may be able to castle Queenside very soon, with
counterplay.
> By taking Pawn at f7, It was 2 points loss. But It took 1 pawn
> advantage for King Moved and King cannot do chastling. And the King
> defence was broken.
I see; you give a full pawn for loss of castling rights.
But how do you explain the program *not* taking on e5
after ...Nxf7, Kxf7? That counts as a point, no?
> Since for all moves there was a loss of 1 pawn. It descided to
> sacrifice knight for a pawn + weakening King ~ 1+1=2 Points having a
> loss of 1 point.
>
> So trhe move 4. Q-d3 was wrong. I think Master Level did 8 (half
> moves) calculations and could not see the Fork, Incase it has seen
> till 9 (half moves) It would not have played Q-d3.
Okay, what we have here is a situation where your chess
program is, perhaps, the only one in existence which does
not use tactical search extensions. I wish I could explain
precisely how they can be implemented, but that is beyond
my abilities. In essence, when in a "quiet position", which
is one where there are no legal checks or captures, you
evaluate positional factors; but when there are checks and/or
captures, you *must* look deeper until you reach a quiet
position, and pass back the position score along the line
to the first move.
If best play for both sides in one line ends in checkmate,
the score for the first move in that line is +1 bazillion points.
If best play leads to the forced win of a pawn, the score for
the first move in that line is +1 point.
As far as I know, the first commercial chess computer,
a portable tabletop model, which made this leap to light
speed was probably the Fidelity Chess Challenger series.
It had by-rote opening moves, tactical search extensions,
and selectable levels from very fast to exceedingly slow,
and its priy weakness was that in simple endgames
the play sped up dramatically because of a fixed depth of
search (a poor idea). That was perhaps in the late 1970s;
you are in this sense, a quarter of a century behind the
curve.
-- help bot
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Date: 17 Sep 2007 14:30:50
From: Taylor Kingston
Subject: Re: Can Fritz8 beat GetClub Master Level.
|
On Sep 17, 5:14 pm, Kenneth Sloan <[email protected] > wrote:
> Taylor Kingston wrote:
> > On Sep 17, 1:40 am, Sanny <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>> Nonsense. Yesterday afternoon I started a game between your program
> >>> and Fritz8. GetClub moved so slowly I could not finish the game until
> >>> this morning, but essentially the game was over by the 7th move, when
> >>> GetClub threw away a piece for almost nothing, and then played so
> >>> idiotically that it lost any chance for compensation. Here is the
> >>> game:
>
> >> So please try again with Opening moves. as this game was not played
> >> with opening book for some reasion.
>
> > Sanny, as I said before, I am not wasting any more time with your
> > silly program. Or on replying to your silly posts.
>
> Apparently, you ... mis-spoke ...
No, Ken. Unless I have had a memory lapse, the above post was the
first time that I said I would no longer reply to Sanny. Since then I
have not, therefore you and Mr. Veldhouse are mistaken in this regard.
The "as I before" applied to wasting time on his program.
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Date: 17 Sep 2007 19:31:11
From: TrekNoid
Subject: Re: Can Fritz8 beat GetClub Master Level.
|
On Sep 15, 2:37 am, Sanny <[email protected] > wrote:
>
> Yesterday Beginner Level beat a player 4 times and was able to draw a
> game with Nomorechess So I think the game play has improved a lot.
>
Well, if you're referring to the games I lost, you probably shouldn't
be too excited... I'm hardly any measure of a 'good' player. I get
beaten regularly by Chessmaster at the 1600 level :)
One piece of feedback, though:
Your 'Easy' mode advertises 10-20 second moves... yet in my games, it
regularly took longer than 20 seconds to make a decision.
TrekNoid
[email protected]
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Date: 17 Sep 2007 09:21:19
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: Can Fritz8 beat GetClub Master Level.
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> > Sanny, as I said before, I am not wasting any more time with your
> > silly program. Or on replying to your silly posts.
>
> You just did :-)
>
Ha Ha Ha what a joke !!!
Bye
Sanny
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
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Date: 17 Sep 2007 07:00:41
From: Taylor Kingston
Subject: Re: Can Fritz8 beat GetClub Master Level.
|
On Sep 17, 1:40 am, Sanny <[email protected] > wrote:
> > Nonsense. Yesterday afternoon I started a game between your program
> > and Fritz8. GetClub moved so slowly I could not finish the game until
> > this morning, but essentially the game was over by the 7th move, when
> > GetClub threw away a piece for almost nothing, and then played so
> > idiotically that it lost any chance for compensation. Here is the
> > game:
> So please try again with Opening moves. as this game was not played
> with opening book for some reasion.
Sanny, as I said before, I am not wasting any more time with your
silly program. Or on replying to your silly posts.
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Date: 17 Sep 2007 16:14:47
From: Kenneth Sloan
Subject: Re: Can Fritz8 beat GetClub Master Level.
|
Taylor Kingston wrote:
> On Sep 17, 1:40 am, Sanny <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> Nonsense. Yesterday afternoon I started a game between your program
>>> and Fritz8. GetClub moved so slowly I could not finish the game until
>>> this morning, but essentially the game was over by the 7th move, when
>>> GetClub threw away a piece for almost nothing, and then played so
>>> idiotically that it lost any chance for compensation. Here is the
>>> game:
>
>> So please try again with Opening moves. as this game was not played
>> with opening book for some reasion.
>
> Sanny, as I said before, I am not wasting any more time with your
> silly program. Or on replying to your silly posts.
>
Apparently, you ... mis-spoke ...
--
Kenneth Sloan [email protected]
Computer and Information Sciences +1-205-932-2213
University of Alabama at Birmingham FAX +1-205-934-5473
Birmingham, AL 35294-1170 http://www.cis.uab.edu/sloan/
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Date: 17 Sep 2007 15:45:24
From: Thomas T. Veldhouse
Subject: Re: Can Fritz8 beat GetClub Master Level.
|
In rec.games.chess.computer Taylor Kingston <[email protected] > wrote:
>
> Sanny, as I said before, I am not wasting any more time with your
> silly program. Or on replying to your silly posts.
>
You just did :-)
--
Thomas T. Veldhouse
We have more to fear from the bungling of the incompetent than from the
machinations of the wicked.
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Date: 17 Sep 2007 01:19:04
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: Can Fritz8 beat GetClub Master Level.
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> So trhe move 4. Q-d3 was wrong. I think Master Level did 8 (half
> moves) calculations and could not see the Fork, Incase it has seen
> till 9 (half moves) It would not have played Q-d3.
>
Sorry, I checked again, it did 9 (half move) calculations and played Q-
d3. If it have done 10(half move) calculations it would have seen the
fork of Queen+Knight at 10th (half) Move.
Bye
Sanny.
Play Chess at:http://www.getclub.com/Chess.html
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Date: 17 Sep 2007 01:10:07
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: Can Fritz8 beat GetClub Master Level.
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> 1. Nf3 d5
> 2. d4 Nf6
> 3. Bg5 Ne4
>
> This is the Trompowski, and it was only when GetClub
> played the horrible 4. Qd3 that it got into trouble.
So the Master was playing correct Opening moves for itself. Thats
good.
> Even so, the sac' on f7 was completely un-called for;
> the Knight should have just retreated. Something is
> horribly wrong if the program sac's a piece for spite
> checks, when there is no substantive attack. Hint:
> you cannot conduct an attack by sacrificing the only
> piece you have developed, because after the sacrifice,
> that piece can attack no more. Duh!
Here Kinight had no place to move. If it comes back Knight & Queen get
into fork by pawn. bIf it goes at h3, Then pawn at h4 can be captured
by queen. So always there was a loss of a Pawn.
By taking Pawn at f7, It was 2 points loss. But It took 1 pawn
advantage for King Moved and King cannot do chastling. And the King
defence was broken.
Since for all moves there was a loss of 1 pawn. It descided to
sacrifice knight for a pawn + weakening King ~ 1+1=2 Points having a
loss of 1 point.
So trhe move 4. Q-d3 was wrong. I think Master Level did 8 (half
moves) calculations and could not see the Fork, Incase it has seen
till 9 (half moves) It would not have played Q-d3.
Bye
Sanny.
Play Chess at: http://www.getclub.com/Chess.html
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Date: 17 Sep 2007 00:21:42
From: help bot
Subject: Re: Can Fritz8 beat GetClub Master Level.
|
On Sep 17, 12:40 am, Sanny <[email protected] > wrote:
> > note: time used, in minutes and seconds, given after each move:
>
> > 1.Nf3 10:00 d5 :00 2.d4 6:10 Nf6 :00 3.Bg5 18:39
> The game was wrong. I find the Opening book was not followed. It
> thought for 10 min in opening first move? It always plays opening
> moves in 0 seconds. And First 4 moves are opening moves.
>
> Why was opening not played. It means there was something wrong with
> loading of program, Otherwise a descent opening would have been played
> and it would have tough time for fritz8 once the game started with a
> correct opening.
Actually, the first few moves were not to blame here.
1. Nf3 d5
2. d4 Nf6
3. Bg5 Ne4
This is the Trompowski, and it was only when GetClub
played the horrible 4. Qd3 that it got into trouble.
Even so, the sac' on f7 was completely un-called for;
the Knight should have just retreated. Something is
horribly wrong if the program sac's a piece for spite
checks, when there is no substantive attack. Hint:
you cannot conduct an attack by sacrificing the only
piece you have developed, because after the sacrifice,
that piece can attack no more. Duh!
-- help bot
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Date: 16 Sep 2007 22:57:02
From: help bot
Subject: Re: Can Fritz8 beat GetClub Master Level.
|
On Sep 16, 10:56 am, Taylor Kingston <[email protected] > wrote:
> Nonsense. Yesterday afternoon I started a game between your program
> and Fritz8. GetClub moved so slowly I could not finish the game until
> this morning, but essentially the game was over by the 7th move, when
> GetClub threw away a piece for almost nothing, and then played so
> idiotically that it lost any chance for compensation. Here is the
> game:
>
> White: GetClub
> Black: Fritz 8
>
> note: time used, in minutes and seconds, given after each move:
>
> 1.Nf3 10:00 d5 :00 2.d4 6:10 Nf6 :00 3.Bg5 18:39
>
> Notice the long think. Sanny's program repeatedly overstepped the
> self-announced time limit of 5-10 minutes per move.
A nice diversion to avoid recognition of the fact that
here, GetClub stands well due to her solid opening play.
> 3...Ne4 0:00 4.Qd3? 6:03 Nxg5 0:19 5.Nxg5 8:40 e5 0:00 6.h4 13:31 h6
> 0:23 7.Nxf7?? 13:32 Kxf7 0:04
>
> Basically, the game is already decided. White might have had some
> slight chance if he'd followed up the knight sac with 8.dxe5, but
> Sanny's program proceeds from bad to worse.
>
> 8.Nc3? 13:52 e4 0:10 9.Qb5? 5:58 c6 0:00 10.Qb3 9:47 Qb6 0:00
>
> Good, straightforward chess technique. When you're ahead in
> material, seek to exchange queens. White must oblige or lose the d-
> pawn.
What about 11.e3, guarding the d-pawn and
stubbornly refusing to trade Queens? If the
opponent initiates the trade, it is a psychological
coup; in effect, Fritz must admit that he can't
handle the tactics with Queens on the board.
> 11.Qxb6 6:27 axb6
An excellent move! GetClub is a tactical
genius, sometimes selecting the same move
as Bobby Fischer almost certainly would.
> 0:02 12.Nd1 14:05
>
> A ludicrous spectacle. Not only is White a piece down, but he's lost
> control of the center and does not have a single piece developed.
Read Nimzowitch; one need not always occupy
the center, or rush development if the center is
closed.
> 12...c5 0:17 13.Ne3 10:32 cxd4 0:10 14.Nxd5 14:59 Be6 0:00 15.c4 13:07
> Bd6 0:00 16.g4? 16:39 b5 0:05 17.e3 7:18 bxc4 0:00 18.Bxc4 6:02 Rc8
> 0:00 19.b3??
Another classic example of anti-GetClub annotation.
Objectively, this is just about as good a way to lose as any.
While most humans would prefer to "attack something" with
...Nb6, there is little objective reason to prefer one losing
technique to another. In fact, many grandmasters are known
for being poor at losing brilliantly. You take GM Kramnik, for
instance; in one game he allowed a mate-in-one on himself,
when there were myriad better ways to lose!
> 9:49 b5 0:00
>
> Most human players would probably have gone for more simplification,
> but Fritz8 has enough calculating ability, even at very quick time
> limits, to handle this more complicated line.
>
> 20.Nb6 11:27 bxc4 0:00 21.Nxa8 9:15 dxe3
Look at this: no query for inferior moves, if *Fritz*
is the one making them. My computer shows that
...Bb4+ is quite superior: 22. Kf1 Nd7, 23. ed Rxa8
(+5 for Black since the Knight does not escape).
> 0:00 22.O-O
An error. Now the Knight is trapped for sure.
> 11:26 Nd7 0:04
> 23.fxe3+
Another brilliant tactical blow by GetClub! Too bad
the attack will be made without any army left.
> 23:15 Ke7 0:00 24.Rf2 9:11 Rxa8 0:04 25.g5
A serious error, as now the pin-- a8-a1 -- will allow
Fritz a quick and smooth finish, like a Pinot Grigio,
1948.
> 7:38 cxb3 0:02
> 26.a4 8:23 Bg3 0:00 27.Rd2 7:51 Bxh4 0:04 28.gxh6 7:45 Ne5 0:00
>
> Most human players again would probably just chop wood, but Fritz is
> weaving a mating net.
Well, perhaps it is, but Fritz obviously lost the thread
when it gave up on promoting the b-pawn and switched
to grabbing irrelevant pawns on the far wing. IMO, White
should already be down to one Rook and completely
defenseless about here.
> 29.Kh1 13:16 Nf3 0:03 30.Re2 14:52 Rh8 0:00 31.hxg7 16:23 Rh6 0:04
> 32.Kg2 8:30
>
> At this point Fritz announced mate in at most 8.
Yes, well, that may be because White has defended
poorly; my computer sees no forced easy mate after
better defensive moves. In other words, was Fritz
really "weaving a net" or did GetClub just trip and
catch itself?
> 32...Rg6+ 0:00 33.Kh1 15:56 Bf6 0:06
Here, my computer shows a forced mate via ...Be1.
If Fritz misses shallow mates, how can he have been
"weaving a net" many moves back?
> Here I shut down for the night, and restarted the game this morning,
> hence the "0:00" time for White's next move
>
> 34.g8=R 0:00
>
> Seems odd to promote to a rook, but that's what Sanny's program did.
> Doesn't matter anyway. The way Fritz now completely ignores the newly
> promoted piece is amusing.
>
> 34...Rh6+
Amusing perhaps, but after this lemon my computer
shows the quickest forced mates have evaporated into
thin air. In fact, Fritz seems to almost be struggling
not to *lose ground* here, in terms of "mate-in-x".
> 0:00 35.Kg2 6:18 Rh2+ 0:00 36.Kf1 6:23 Bc4
Finally, a good move my program did not foresee.
We're back to the quickie mates again.
> 0:00 37.Rae1 9:42
> Bh4 0:00 38.Rg7+ 9:41 Kf8 0:00
>
> And here Sanny's program resigned; after the spite check 39.Rf7+ Kxf7
> it's mate next move.
> I trust this satisfies Sanny's curiosity about the relative merits
> of his program versus Fritz8, and puts paid to the notion that his
> program is "improving." I will waste no more time on this issue.
Sometimes, Sanny's program does really stupid
things like the Knight sac' in this game. But other
times, it plays rather well for a long time. The
problem is that it only takes one such blunder for
the program to lose the game, and this is why I
keep telling Sanny to get his tactics up to speed.
I believe it was Sam Sloan who recommended the
book "Pawn Power in Chess" to Sanny, but if you
play the program you will see that he can have all
of that programmed in and it would still lose, as in
the above game, on elementary tactics.
-- help bot
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Date: 16 Sep 2007 22:40:06
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: Can Fritz8 beat GetClub Master Level.
|
> Nonsense. Yesterday afternoon I started a game between your program
> and Fritz8. GetClub moved so slowly I could not finish the game until
> this morning, but essentially the game was over by the 7th move, when
> GetClub threw away a piece for almost nothing, and then played so
> idiotically that it lost any chance for compensation. Here is the
> game:
>
> White: GetClub
> Black: Fritz 8
>
> note: time used, in minutes and seconds, given after each move:
>
> 1.Nf3 10:00 d5 :00 2.d4 6:10 Nf6 :00 3.Bg5 18:39
>
The game was wrong. I find the Opening book was not followed. It
thought for 10 min in opening first move? It always plays opening
moves in 0 seconds. And First 4 moves are opening moves.
Why was opening not played. It means there was something wrong with
loading of program, Otherwise a descent opening would have been played
and it would have tough time for fritz8 once the game started with a
correct opening.
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
So please try again with Opening moves. as this game was not played
with opening book for some reasion.
Bye
Sanny
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
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Date: 16 Sep 2007 08:56:09
From: Taylor Kingston
Subject: Re: Can Fritz8 beat GetClub Master Level.
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On Sep 15, 1:17 pm, Sanny <[email protected] > wrote:
> > > What do Taylor Kingston Say.
>
> > Sanny, I already registered Fritz8 with your "new improved" program,
> > and have pitted the two programs against each other in several games
> > at various levels, including "master" if I recall correctly. It was no
> > contest. Fritz8 slaughtered your program. So the match you ask for has
> > already been played, just check your records.
>
> That was I think 2-3 days back. After that the Game was improved and
> now it has outplay many good players.
Nonsense. Yesterday afternoon I started a game between your program
and Fritz8. GetClub moved so slowly I could not finish the game until
this morning, but essentially the game was over by the 7th move, when
GetClub threw away a piece for almost nothing, and then played so
idiotically that it lost any chance for compensation. Here is the
game:
White: GetClub
Black: Fritz 8
note: time used, in minutes and seconds, given after each move:
1.Nf3 10:00 d5 :00 2.d4 6:10 Nf6 :00 3.Bg5 18:39
Notice the long think. Sanny's program repeatedly overstepped the
self-announced time limit of 5-10 minutes per move.
3...Ne4 0:00 4.Qd3? 6:03 Nxg5 0:19 5.Nxg5 8:40 e5 0:00 6.h4 13:31 h6
0:23 7.Nxf7?? 13:32 Kxf7 0:04
Basically, the game is already decided. White might have had some
slight chance if he'd followed up the knight sac with 8.dxe5, but
Sanny's program proceeds from bad to worse.
8.Nc3? 13:52 e4 0:10 9.Qb5? 5:58 c6 0:00 10.Qb3 9:47 Qb6 0:00
Good, straightforward chess technique. When you're ahead in
material, seek to exchange queens. White must oblige or lose the d-
pawn.
11.Qxb6 6:27 axb6 0:02 12.Nd1 14:05
A ludicrous spectacle. Not only is White a piece down, but he's lost
control of the center and does not have a single piece developed.
12...c5 0:17 13.Ne3 10:32 cxd4 0:10 14.Nxd5 14:59 Be6 0:00 15.c4 13:07
Bd6 0:00 16.g4? 16:39 b5 0:05 17.e3 7:18 bxc4 0:00 18.Bxc4 6:02 Rc8
0:00 19.b3?? 9:49 b5 0:00
Most human players would probably have gone for more simplification,
but Fritz8 has enough calculating ability, even at very quick time
limits, to handle this more complicated line.
20.Nb6 11:27 bxc4 0:00 21.Nxa8 9:15 dxe3 0:00 22.O-O 11:26 Nd7 0:04
23.fxe3+ 23:15 Ke7 0:00 24.Rf2 9:11 Rxa8 0:04 25.g5 7:38 cxb3 0:02
26.a4 8:23 Bg3 0:00 27.Rd2 7:51 Bxh4 0:04 28.gxh6 7:45 Ne5 0:00
Most human players again would probably just chop wood, but Fritz is
weaving a mating net.
29.Kh1 13:16 Nf3 0:03 30.Re2 14:52 Rh8 0:00 31.hxg7 16:23 Rh6 0:04
32.Kg2 8:30
At this point Fritz announced mate in at most 8.
32...Rg6+ 0:00 33.Kh1 15:56 Bf6 0:06
Here I shut down for the night, and restarted the game this morning,
hence the "0:00" time for White's next move
34.g8=R 0:00
Seems odd to promote to a rook, but that's what Sanny's program did.
Doesn't matter anyway. The way Fritz now completely ignores the newly
promoted piece is amusing.
34...Rh6+ 0:00 35.Kg2 6:18 Rh2+ 0:00 36.Kf1 6:23 Bc4 0:00 37.Rae1 9:42
Bh4 0:00 38.Rg7+ 9:41 Kf8 0:00
And here Sanny's program resigned; after the spite check 39.Rf7+ Kxf7
it's mate next move.
I trust this satisfies Sanny's curiosity about the relative merits
of his program versus Fritz8, and puts paid to the notion that his
program is "improving." I will waste no more time on this issue.
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Date: 16 Sep 2007 00:00:11
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: Q: Can Fritz8 beat GetClub Master Level. A: Yes, if don't remove its Queen.
|
> So, which gives you the better odds? I say fight the
> tiger with the knife; try to wrest the knife from him
> and then use it to slit his throat from behind (you
> should know that fighting a tiger from any other
> position can be *very* risky!).
Ok Play a game with Master Level and try to beat it. I think it will
win 3/4 times. Incase you win then telkl me any weak move played by
Master Level.
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
>
> Maybe he was in better form, or maybe he is taking
> the games more seriously, carefully considering his
> every move. If he is using another chess program (it
> makes little difference which one), yours will lose
> horribly in nearly every game. Of course, yours is a
> Java applet while a normal chess program is running
> much, much faster.
I am thinking to have a downloadable version of the game also that
will be faster than the applet. If it is 10 times faster then Beginner
Level will play as good as Normal Level & Easy level will play like
Master Level. That I will create once all are satisfied with the
Applet version.
Bye
Sanny
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
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Date: 15 Sep 2007 17:36:34
From: help bot
Subject: Re: Q: Can Fritz8 beat GetClub Master Level. A: Yes, if don't remove its Queen.
|
On Sep 15, 12:48 pm, Sanny <[email protected] > wrote:
> Samsloan has just arrived at GetClub Chess. He played 2 games both
> with Easy Level. And win both games. Is he a good player?
Yes, he is a good player. You need to focus on beating
weak players consistently; these strong players are all
booked up and you may beat them on occasion, but just
get the chess program at a reasonable level at tactics
and you will see the most improvement in results.
> Can he be on top at GetClub Chess?
Um, no. Only nomorechess can do that; or maybe
Taylor Zebediah Kingston if he works very hard.
You see, Mr. Sloan doesn't realize it, but he plays
very bad moves in the opening; and since the
opening is going to be a part of *every* game, that
hurts him, except against weak players where the
bizarre positions put them on their own quickly.
> He beat Easy level in just 24 moves in first game.
The number of moves can tell you how "sharply"
they play, but it is only the result which speaks to
strength. Think about it: if you were to fight a tiger
with a knife, you would probably lose *very quickly*;
but if you were to fight old age, you would lose every
time, even though it would be a long, slow struggle.
So, which gives you the better odds? I say fight the
tiger with the knife; try to wrest the knife from him
and then use it to slit his throat from behind (you
should know that fighting a tiger from any other
position can be *very* risky!).
> And the other game he took 50 Moves to win.
>
> His game looks better than that of other players. Is he using
> Computer?
Maybe he was in better form, or maybe he is taking
the games more seriously, carefully considering his
every move. If he is using another chess program (it
makes little difference which one), yours will lose
horribly in nearly every game. Of course, yours is a
Java applet while a normal chess program is running
much, much faster.
-- help bot
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Date: 15 Sep 2007 10:48:07
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: Q: Can Fritz8 beat GetClub Master Level. A: Yes, if don't remove its Queen.
|
> How about fixing the program so that it doesn't force
> you to play on after the game is legally over? K & N
> vs. K is drawn, so the fact that I had to hang my Knight
> in order to move on to the next game is a bug; worse,
> even after I gave away my Knight it STILL did not see
> that the game was a draw!!! King vs. King, Sanny, is
> a draw, according to the rules of chess. Naturally, I
> cleverly found a way to get a threefold repetition of
> position and thereby save a draw (whew!) before losing
> on old age/rigormortis at the keyboard; this just goes
> to show how good a chess player I am -- even when the
> chips are down, I hunker down and find a way to save
> the game; my King and Knight were easily a match for
> the Beginner level's lone King -- in fact, I felt I had the
> upperhand (groan).
Samsloan has just arrived at GetClub Chess. He played 2 games both
with Easy Level. And win both games. Is he a good player? Can he be on
top at GetClub Chess? He beat Easy level in just 24 moves in first
game. And the other game he took 50 Moves to win.
His game looks better than that of other players. Is he using
Computer?
Bye
Sanny
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
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Date: 15 Sep 2007 10:17:39
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: Can Fritz8 beat GetClub Master Level.
|
> > What do Taylor Kingston Say.
>
> Sanny, I already registered Fritz8 with your "new improved" program,
> and have pitted the two programs against each other in several games
> at various levels, including "master" if I recall correctly. It was no
> contest. Fritz8 slaughtered your program. So the match you ask for has
> already been played, just check your records.
That was I think 2-3 days back. After that the Game was improved and
now it has outplay many good players.
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
Currently the GetClub game is 3-4 times better than it was 2-3 days
back. Thats why I would like to see if Now GetClub Chess gives
Challenge to Fritz8 or not.
>
> > I love seeing GetClub winning the games!!!
>
> GetClub will never beat Frtiz8.
Ok what about you, Can Master Level beat you in 2/4 Games? Have you
played a game without computer help?
Bye
Sanny
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
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Date: 15 Sep 2007 07:15:28
From: Taylor Kingston
Subject: Re: Can Fritz8 beat GetClub Master Level.
|
On Sep 15, 3:37 am, Sanny <[email protected] > wrote:
> I am asking for a Challenge between Frits8 vs Master Level, Can Fritz
> 8 beat Master Level of GetClub Chess?
>
> What do Taylor Kingston Say.
Sanny, I already registered Fritz8 with your "new improved" program,
and have pitted the two programs against each other in several games
at various levels, including "master" if I recall correctly. It was no
contest. Fritz8 slaughtered your program. So the match you ask for has
already been played, just check your records.
> I love seeing GetClub winning the games!!!
GetClub will never beat Frtiz8.
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Date: 15 Sep 2007 06:34:07
From: help bot
Subject: Q: Can Fritz8 beat GetClub Master Level. A: Yes, if don't remove its Queen.
|
Sanny wrote:
> I am asking for a Challenge between Frits8 vs Master Level, Can Fritz
> 8 beat Master Level of GetClub Chess?
>
> What do Taylor Kingston Say.
>
> Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
>
> Now All will cry by the strength of GetClub Chess, Ha Ha Ha....
>
> GetClub Chess will beat all Players whether Strong or weak. Ha Ha
> Ha....
Sanny, I really do get the feeling I am playing a human
opponent now. All booked-up in the openings (compared
to before, when it knew nothing), and it plays well but on
occasion misses really simple tactics, just like humans
do. This reminds me of the Turk: a contraption in which
was hidden a human chess player, except that in this
case the human is about Class B strength, whereas with
the Turk they put a strong master inside.
> Yesterday Beginner Level beat a player 4 times and was able to draw a
> game with Nomorechess So I think the game play has improved a lot.
Maybe Nomo got careless and clicked "Knight" instead
of "Queen" when promoting his pawn; maybe the program
was not so good if it allowed the opponent to promote his
pawns and must rely upon mouse errors to get a draw.
(BTW, computers don't make this kind of error, so they
have an inherent advantage as small compensation for
being really, really daft.)
> Can Zebediah & Taylor Kingston Still beat its Master Level without
> using Computer?
No. In order to play at GetClub, he *must* use a
computer, just like the rest of us. This may surprise
you, but even He puts his pants on, one leg at a time!
> Can Nomorechess beat the Easy & Normal Levels?
Nomo may be tired of all the disconnects, so maybe
he will and maybe he won't beat up on those levels some
mo'.
> I love seeing GetClub winning the games!!!
How about fixing the program so that it doesn't force
you to play on after the game is legally over? K & N
vs. K is drawn, so the fact that I had to hang my Knight
in order to move on to the next game is a bug; worse,
even after I gave away my Knight it STILL did not see
that the game was a draw!!! King vs. King, Sanny, is
a draw, according to the rules of chess. Naturally, I
cleverly found a way to get a threefold repetition of
position and thereby save a draw (whew!) before losing
on old age/rigormortis at the keyboard; this just goes
to show how good a chess player I am -- even when the
chips are down, I hunker down and find a way to save
the game; my King and Knight were easily a match for
the Beginner level's lone King -- in fact, I felt I had the
upperhand (groan).
-- help bot
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