A big program mistake was found.

Main

Date: 29 Jul 2006 23:39:30
From: Sanny
Subject: A big program mistake was found.

A big program mistake was found which was weakening computer moves. Now
the bug has been removed. So it will play really tough game.

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

Recently Nomorechess and others won Advance level as there was a bug
which has now been removed.

The bug was asking Program to sacrifice its Pawns for no reasions.

Now Since the Bug has been removed It will not allow its Pawns to be
killed unless you give a Pawn in Exchange

Test your Level at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

Now I feel even Taylor Kingston and Bob will be defeated by its Master
Level, While Others will get beaten by Normal. And Chess players like
me and others will be beaten by Easy Levels.

If computer gets success in beating all the opponents. It would be a
great day for me and my programmers. Have a good Day.

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

Date: 01 Aug 2006 03:51:15
From: Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (Wlod)
Subject: Re: A big program mistake was found.

Sanny keeps crossposting his garbage to

rec.games.chess.politics

> A very Big Board has been Added to the Game, [...]
> Isn't it Great !!!.

FANTASTIC !!! THE GREATEST ACHIEVEMENT
OF THE THIERD MILLENIUM !!!

Now, Sanny, that I have your attention, listen:
next time you crosspost I report you to the
"abuse". Got it?

Sanny, crossposting is BAD for your business
(unless I get lazy :-),

Wlod

Date: 01 Aug 2006 00:01:18
From: help bot
Subject: Re: A big program mistake was found.

Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (Wlod) wrote:
> Sanny wrote:
>
> > You have got 16 extra games for $2.00 as
> > You will surely be second if
> > not First. Now you can play 16 extra games.
>
> Sanny, you are new here. Let me tell you a secret
> (you can keep a secret, can't you?). Chess is the
> second greatest help_bot's passion. Actually,
> a very poor second, far behind his true love
> for lollypops. And that's what he's gona spent
> his two bucks on, you'll see, just give him his $2.

LOL

As I understand it, the way the prize money works is that
you can "spend" it only on more games. Thus, the best
possible outcome is that a player like say, TK, uses his
initial 30 free games to earn enough points to win the big
$5 prize, then repeats each month thereafter as the big
$5 prize winner, using his prize money to buy more games
and keep on winning 1st prize.

So all this discussion about what I would do with all my
prize money (evny?) once I got it, is pointless. But just
for the record, I would take my $2 and invest in Wal-t
stock back about twenty years ago, just to see what
happens. Or should I split it 50/50 between WMT and
Microsoft? Or what about if I diversify, investing a few
cents in each of these: Wal-t, Microsoft, Yahoo!,
IBM --right before DeepBlue beat Kasparov, Amazon, and
a bet on Fischer to win in 1992, offering a million to one
odds to all takers. With a diversified portfolio like that,
how could I lose?

-- help bot

Date: 31 Jul 2006 04:05:58
From: Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (Wlod)
Subject: Re: A big program mistake was found.

Sanny wrote:

> You have got 16 extra games for $2.00 as
> You will surely be second if
> not First. Now you can play 16 extra games.

Sanny, you are new here. Let me tell you a secret
(you can keep a secret, can't you?). Chess is the
second greatest help_bot's passion. Actually,
a very poor second, far behind his true love
for lollypops. And that's what he's gona spent
his two bucks on, you'll see, just give him his $2.

Regards,

Wlod

Date: 31 Jul 2006 03:47:32
From: Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (Wlod)
Subject: Re: A big program mistake was found.

help bot wrote:

> It was just that the Pentium processor chip
> was loose in its socket all that time.

And it had that famous floating pawn bug,
which forced an exchange of zillions chips.
You know, losing exchange is a major
business chess disaster.

Wlod

Date: 31 Jul 2006 03:40:53
From: Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (Wlod)
Subject: Re: A big program mistake was found.

Date: 31 Jul 2006 02:54:37
From: help bot
Subject: Re: Bob is Best Player at GetClub Chess.

Sanny wrote:

> Bob is the Best Player on GetClub Chess Game. He plays less games but
> he always beats Master Level in 19-20 Moves. Even TK needs 30-40 moves
> to win it.

I just went to GetClub.com and replayed several of Bob's
games for the first time. I noticed that once Bob did not
refute some obvious blunder, but just developed normally.
This reminded me of TK's games, and is evidence
that either Bob does not always use a computer, or else he
sometimes tries to play the opening on his own, or maybe
his program is just sorta weak. :)

Most of Bob's games look exactly like a strong computer
bashing Sanny's much weaker one. Several non-human moves
were played, and yes, Bob often wins very quickly, but then, if
he is using a good computer program, this is to be expected.
In particular, odd combinations which most humans don't even
look for frequently spring up, in addition to the computereque style
of too many silly Queen moves. If there were some certain way
to determine whether or not Bob used a computer here, I would
be calling the bookies in Vegas to lock up some easy winnings. :)

Here is my main point: Sanny claims that Bob always
wins very quickly, and rather than try to explain that speed
is not necessarily indicative of strength, I simply note that
the claim itself is faulty, for Bob does NOT always win so
quickly. One game so far has him in an endgame, not
winning until move 36. That's pretty poor for say, Fritz. This
game is almost certainly one computer vs. another, and it is
clear that Sanny's inferior program stands no chance. The
worst part of all is that every time Bob's computer makes a
silly computer move, Sanny's does not exploit it but rather
tries its darndest to avoid inconveniencing "Bob" in any way!

> How?
>
> He always gives its Major Pieces for Pawns. Sometimes Knight for a
> pawn, Sometimes Bishop for a Pawn and even Rook for a pawn. And in the
> End he Brings a Check Mate Position. As if He has foreseen the Check
> Mate Position in the Opening only.

Actually, I found the games to be a bit dodgy, in the
sense that no strategic plan was followed, but instead
shallow tactics ruled the day. This is to be expected.
Computers don't make strategic plans. They bounce
around like Tigger, going after pawns, pieces, whatever
they can eat at the moment. And they are very good at
this, just like sharks. IMO, there is no way to test which
is stronger from looking at these games against Sanny's
program, because it is too weak to put up any fight.

> I do not know how he plans by giving its Strong Pieces for Pawns and
> still Win all the Games with Master Level.

Sanny, whatever program Bob is using (and I have no
clue), it will never lose a single game to your program
on any level. Your program is way down around, say,
USCF 1000 or thereabouts. Nearly all the commercial
programs, and even the free engines such as Crafty,
are well over 2000 USCF now. The best one is on the
brink of breaking the 3000 k, just as DeepBlue was,
unofficially speaking. Aside from operator error, the odds
of GetClub's program beating such a program are basically
zero. Against strong humans, the odds are only *slightly*
better than zero. I have beaten it twenty-nine times in a
row, and not once have I had a lost position. BTW, my
specialty is defending these, and I have lots of practice.

-- help bot

Date: 31 Jul 2006 01:38:30
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: A big program mistake was found.

> But the main issue has switched from one of slowness to
> one of strength, for it becomes apparent that the program
> cannot defend against combinations only a few moves deep.
> This makes it quite suitable for weak chess players, who don't
> want to lose *every game* to a state-of-the-art opponent. Yet
> at the same time, it becomes frustrating to geniuses like
> myself (hee, hee!) who cannot seem to win in any other way
> than by snatching armloads of free stuff, which the program
> invariably hangs. Against THIS program, I feel the way Tal
> must have always felt -- tactically, I can do no wrong!

The game will again be improved by a fator of two atleast this month.

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

One thing, Whenever you play a new game Close the Old Browser and
restart on a new Browser. Refresh the New Browser once. Sometimes the
Browser keep old Program into memory and make wrong Moves.

Bye
Sanny

Play a game at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

Date: 31 Jul 2006 01:26:06
From: help bot
Subject: Re: A big program mistake was found.

Sanny wrote:
> > >
> > > Now I feel even Taylor Kingston and Bob will be defeated by its Master
> > > Level, While Others will get beaten by Normal. And Chess players like
> > > me and others will be beaten by Easy Levels.
> > >
> > > If computer gets success in beating all the opponents. It would be a
> > > great day for me and my programmers. Have a good Day.
>
>
> > I have now played 29 free games at GetClub, and the last,
> > or 30th, is reserved for a human opponent so I will not be
> > disqualified from winning the big $5. prize, should Taylor
> > Kingston tire of demolishing your program over and over.
>
> You have got 16 extra games for $2.00 as You will surely be second if
> not First. Now you can play 16 extra games.

Assumming Bonsai or Bob do not go on a last minute tear,
this is correct. Suppose for example that I play only the
Advance level, and I somehow miraculously manage to defeat it
16 times next month, how many points is that? As it is, I "wasted"
a lot of games playing the much weaker levels, due to my own poor
internet connection (which frequently terminates a game in progress)
and also due to the speed issues which have now been solved,
more or less. I also purchased a (slightly) better notebook adapter
for better reception range, and swithced locations.

Obviously, those who play using a reliable connection and
who have unlimited time will have no real difficulty now of
finishing games on the higher levels, provided their patience
holds out.

But the main issue has switched from one of slowness to
one of strength, for it becomes apparent that the program
cannot defend against combinations only a few moves deep.
This makes it quite suitable for weak chess players, who don't
want to lose *every game* to a state-of-the-art opponent. Yet
at the same time, it becomes frustrating to geniuses like
myself (hee, hee!) who cannot seem to win in any other way
than by snatching armloads of free stuff, which the program
invariably hangs. Against THIS program, I feel the way Tal
must have always felt -- tactically, I can do no wrong!

-- help bot

Date: 31 Jul 2006 01:20:54
From: Sanny
Subject: Bob is Best Player at GetClub Chess.

> playing better than ever. Fischer called in to complain that
> he could no longer beat it on the "master" level. No, really.
> He has been playing as "Bonsai", and Kramnik is the real
> "Bob". Honest.
>

Play a game at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

Bob is the Best Player on GetClub Chess Game. He plays less games but
he always beats Master Level in 19-20 Moves. Even TK needs 30-40 moves
to win it.

How?

He always gives its Major Pieces for Pawns. Sometimes Knight for a
pawn, Sometimes Bishop for a Pawn and even Rook for a pawn. And in the
End he Brings a Check Mate Position. As if He has foreseen the Check
Mate Position in the Opening only.

I do not know how he plans by giving its Strong Pieces for Pawns and
still Win all the Games with Master Level.

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

Date: 31 Jul 2006 01:06:02
From: help bot
Subject: Re: A big program mistake was found.

Sanny wrote:
> >> Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
> >
> > 1.d4 d5
> >
> > 2.c4 dxc4!
> >
> >
> > Everything has been fixed this time! Sanny is going to
> > hire IM Phil Innes or Wlod and everything will be hunky
>
> I taught it this opening 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e5 3.dxe5 d4 4.Nf3 Nc6
>
> It is called Albin Counter Gambit
>
> Play a game at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
>
> You Changed the move at 2. ....... e5 to 2. ....... dxc4
>
> White recovers the Pawn by playing 3. Q-a4+ And gets Center Control

I was only joking, Sanny.

In my line, White should *not* recover the gambited
pawn by 3.Q-a4+, as the Queen gets chased around by
lesser pieces afterward. Correct (and this could be added
to the program's book) is:

1.d4 d5

2.c4 dxc4

3.Nf3

This move put a stop to any and all attempts by Black
to sneak in the move ...e5 (dxe5 Qxd1+).

In fact, White regains the pawn later without much trouble,
provided he knows how to refute unsound attempts to hold
onto it, such as ...b5, for instance.

If in fact White's best line was to immediately regain the
pawn via the Queen check Sanny gave, this opening would
not be called the Queen's *Gambit*, as no gambit would be
offered.

-- help bot

Date: 31 Jul 2006 00:45:23
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: A big program mistake was found.

> >
> > Now I feel even Taylor Kingston and Bob will be defeated by its Master
> > Level, While Others will get beaten by Normal. And Chess players like
> > me and others will be beaten by Easy Levels.
> >
> > If computer gets success in beating all the opponents. It would be a
> > great day for me and my programmers. Have a good Day.

> I have now played 29 free games at GetClub, and the last,
> or 30th, is reserved for a human opponent so I will not be
> disqualified from winning the big $5. prize, should Taylor
> Kingston tire of demolishing your program over and over.

You have got 16 extra games for $2.00 as You will surely be second if
not First. Now you can play 16 extra games.

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

Date: 31 Jul 2006 00:33:46
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: A big program mistake was found.

A very Big Board has been Added to the Game, So when it is your Move
Just Press "Big Board" Button and you can analyze your Position on a
Big Board.

And Once your Analysis is complete you can close the Big Board and make
your Move. Isn't it Great !!!.

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

Also, When you complete a game you will be shown your game for
analysis.

Any other Modification you need tell me and it will be done.

I am Happy to see that now no one is complaining about my Chess game,
and everone is Praising about http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html game.
Thats a good thing about my Chess game.

Still if anyone finds anything wrong do inform me.

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

Date: 31 Jul 2006 00:28:15
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: A big program mistake was found.

>> Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
>
> 1.d4 d5
>
> 2.c4 dxc4!
>
>
> Everything has been fixed this time! Sanny is going to
> hire IM Phil Innes or Wlod and everything will be hunky

I taught it this opening 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e5 3.dxe5 d4 4.Nf3 Nc6

It is called Albin Counter Gambit

Play a game at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

You Changed the move at 2. ....... e5 to 2. ....... dxc4

White recovers the Pawn by playing 3. Q-a4+ And gets Center Control

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

Date: 30 Jul 2006 21:00:13
From: help bot
Subject: Re: A big program mistake was found.

Taylor Kingston wrote:
> help bot wrote:
> > I have now played 29 free games at GetClub, and the last,
> > or 30th, is reserved for a human opponent so I will not be
> > disqualified from winning the big $5. prize, should Taylor
> > Kingston tire of demolishing your program over and over.
>
> TK already has tired of it. If you win the $5, I advise spending it
> foolishly.

Wait! There are many more "improvements" on the way.
No ---- come back! The speed has now been tripled. It now
*wins* pawns, as in this example:

1.d4 d5

2.c4 dxc4!

Everything has been fixed this time! Sanny is going to
hire IM Phil Innes or Wlod and everything will be hunky
dory from now on, I promise! It was just that the Pentium
processor chip was loose in its socket all that time. Ray
Keene came by and fixed it, then he fixed the opening
book. Kasparov tweaked the analysis module and it is
playing better than ever. Fischer called in to complain that
he could no longer beat it on the "master" level. No, really.
He has been playing as "Bonsai", and Kramnik is the real
"Bob". Honest.

-- help not

Date: 30 Jul 2006 06:33:35
From: Taylor Kingston
Subject: Re: A big program mistake was found.

help bot wrote:
> I have now played 29 free games at GetClub, and the last,
> or 30th, is reserved for a human opponent so I will not be
> disqualified from winning the big $5. prize, should Taylor
> Kingston tire of demolishing your program over and over.

TK already has tired of it. If you win the $5, I advise spending it
foolishly.

Date: 30 Jul 2006 04:25:14
From: Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (Wlod)
Subject: Re: A big program mistake was found.

help bot wrote:

> a REAL man would offer both Rooks, or perhaps
> a Rook, Knight, Bishop and three pawns

I used to offer the raw beginners both rooks
AND the queen. I think I won each time.
And I was a beginner myself at the time,
but I was a fearless beginner :-)

> What you need is one expert chess programmer --

As a minimum, they should know
about alpha-beta pruning, just
for starters. The replacing 3 plies
deep search with 5 deep will be trivial.

> "Twenty-nine wins in a row is not bad." -- Capablanca

"No(!), Mr. nomorechess. You still need to prove
yourself against a stronger opposition before
you may play *me*." -- Howard Staunton

> "Did you try disabling 'idiot mode'?" -- Bob Hyatt
>
> "I can't quite put my finger on it, but something seems to
> be terribly wrong with this program." -- Sherlock Holmes
>
> "Did Sanny forget to 'enable' the analysis module?" -- B. Hyatt
>
> "No? Then maybe he left the analysis module out when he
> compiled?" -- Bob Hyatt
>
> "What is an analysis module?" -- Sanny

I have to share my professional(!!!) experience from 1994,
when I worked at Wiltel in The Woodlands, Texas.
The company used "Objective C" language, while I have
developed my algorithm in plain C (and it was running
nicely). Then a group of programmers had adopted my
code to Objective C, after which they promptly declared
that I had bugs, and that in general I don't know much
about programming. Finally they had asked me to look
into their code.

Somehow they managed to have an executable system
but they missed my MOST IMPORTANT function
(routine) entirely, they didn't include it at all!

It's like taking the body of a car but not the engine,
and then to complain that the car is not moving :-)
I would never believe something like this possible
if it didn't happen to me.

Regards,

Wlod

Date: 30 Jul 2006 01:57:22
From: help bot
Subject: Re: A big program mistake was found.

Sanny wrote:
> A big program mistake was found which was weakening computer moves. Now
> the bug has been removed. So it will play really tough game.
>
> Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
>
> Recently Nomorechess and others won Advance level as there was a bug
> which has now been removed.
>
> The bug was asking Program to sacrifice its Pawns for no reasions.
>
> Now Since the Bug has been removed It will not allow its Pawns to be
> killed unless you give a Pawn in Exchange
>
> Test your Level at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
>
> Now I feel even Taylor Kingston and Bob will be defeated by its Master
> Level, While Others will get beaten by Normal. And Chess players like
> me and others will be beaten by Easy Levels.
>
> If computer gets success in beating all the opponents. It would be a
> great day for me and my programmers. Have a good Day.

Sanny, your computer cranked out a few more "book" moves
this time, but after that, it was business as usual, which is to
say that it almost *immediately* hung a pawn for no reason. In
fact, your program is *still* so weak that we could have a
contest as to who here can give it the greatest odds, and still
win. Phil Innes claimed he was ready to try a King ch right
out to the center of the board in the opening. Wlod seems willing
to try Rook odds. As for me, I think they are chickenshit; a REAL
man would offer both Rooks, or perhaps a Rook, Knight, Bishop
and three pawns -- nearly one whole side of the board, as
adequate compensation for the many flaws in your program.
I'm not saying I would win every game, but.... :)

In my opinion, your program at GetClub.com is analysing
too slowly to reach the depths required to take on any strong
chess player, even on your highest (and slowest-moving) level.
Can you tell us what computer language you are using?
And the processor? Is it a gutted TSR80 from Radio Shack?
An Atari2600 game machine with half its chips removed?

I just downloaded a free chess Graphic User Interface called
Arena, to enable me to try out some free chess engines. I
don't know what went wrong, but this program (Arena) in
conjunction with the engine I installed, has a killer bug. As a
result I can't do a thing with it so far. The thing is, this free
engine is an early version of a commercial program which has
raised the bar to new heights in terms of strength. At the same
time, your programmers are lowering the other end of that same
bar to new lows. :)

I do like your graphic chess board, which is both clear and
large. And your persistence is admirable. Yet your results so
far are not in accord with what we have come to expect from
modern computers, with their blazing speed. I think the most
likely culprit is your programmers, who perhaps know very
little about *chess programming* techniques. Chess is a game
where the "tree" of variations grows at an astounding rate of
speed, and as such it requires specialized knowledge in order
to keep any processor from being quickly overwhelmed at a
relatively shallow depth of analysis. What you need is one
expert chess programmer -- not a committee of hacks with
their boxes full of makeshift program band-aids.

I have now played 29 free games at GetClub, and the last,
or 30th, is reserved for a human opponent so I will not be
disqualified from winning the big $5. prize, should Taylor
Kingston tire of demolishing your program over and over.
But I am having trouble finding a human opponent, as very
few players (if any) are logged on when I am there. It is
quite possible that the month will end and I will not have
been able to find someone willing to play me. In my
opinion, you would likely do much better if you could
secure permission to use Crafty or Jester as your chess
engine, and then put your efforts into "improving" your
Web site in general. Hire someone like Mig Greengard
to "drive traffic" to the site. Good luck.

"Twenty-nine wins in a row is not bad." -- Capablanca

"You missed a faster win on move 25 of game 29, as I recall."
-- Alekhine

"Good against computers is one thing; good against the living,
that's something else." -- Han Solo

"Nomorechess demonstrated no particular skill in the endgame,
never once reaching one." -- E. Winter

"I don't care how may games he won. He won't post under his
real name, and it's killing me." -- Phil Innes

"Chess is a struggle. And in these games there was no fight."
-- Lasker

"Did you try disabling 'idiot mode'?" -- Bob Hyatt

"Sure, anyone can squeak out a win *as White* in every game."
-- jr

"I can't quite put my finger on it, but something seems to be
terribly wrong with this program." -- Sherlock Holmes

"Did Sanny forget to 'enable' the analysis module?" -- B. Hyatt

"Nomo's unconventional opening play left a lot to be desired."
-- Taylor Kingston

"No? Then maybe he left the analysis module out when he
compiled?" -- Bob Hyatt

"What is an analysis module?" -- Sanny