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Main
Date: 16 Nov 2005 08:53:41
From: ironmarshal
Subject: ruy lopez exchange variation
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I've just recently started playing the Exchange Variation and wa
wondering if somebody can explain to me the logic of 4...dxc6. Why no
play 4...bxc6 setting yourself up for d5 later and fighting for th
middle?
Ironsha
--
ironshal
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Date: 23 Nov 2005 14:57:21
From: Nick
Subject: Re: ruy lopez exchange variation
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Ray Gordon wrote:
> > Thanks Antonio and Claus, that's very instructive.
>
> And hardly "trivial."
>
> I would agree the endgame is more promising for White,
> but White has to win for the opening to be playable.
>
> The middlegame problems are much greater, as
> Black has all the cards through at least move 30.
"Black has all the cards through at least move 30."
--Ray Gordon
Oh, really?
Here's the game between GM Ni Hua (2603 FIDE) and
GM Ildar Ibragimov (2617 FIDE) from the China-USA match
in round 7 of the 2005 World Team Championship in Israel:
Ni Hua - Ildar Ibragimov (6 November 2005)
1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nc6 3 Bb5 a6 4 Bxc6 dxc6 5 O-O Qd6 6 Na3 b5
7 c3 c5 8 Nc2 Bb7 9 a4 b4 10 Qe2 O-O-O 11 cxb4 cxb4 12 d4 exd4
13 Ncxd4 c5 14 Rd1 cxd4 15 Rxd4 Qxd4 16 Nxd4 Rxd4 17 Bf4 Ne7
18 Rc1+ Nc6 19 Qe3 Bc5 20 Qh3+ Kd8 21 Be3 Re8 22 Qxh7 Ba7
23 Qxg7 Rdxe4 24 Qf6+ Kc7 25 Bf4+ Kb6 26 h4 Re1+ 27 Rxe1 Rxe1+
28 Kh2 Re6 29 Qxf7 Re7 30 Qd5 Bb8 31 Bxb8 Nxb8 32 Qd8+ 1-0
Perhaps Ray Gordon would like to explain how GM Ildar Ibragimov
went wrong in the opening or the middlegame?
--Nick
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Date: 22 Nov 2005 05:14:07
From: JEH
Subject: Re: ruy lopez exchange variation
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Thanks Antonio and Claus, that's very instructive.
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Date: 23 Nov 2005 10:44:49
From: Ray Gordon
Subject: Re: ruy lopez exchange variation
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> Thanks Antonio and Claus, that's very instructive.
And hardly "trivial."
I would agree the endgame is more promising for White, but White has to win
for the opening to be playable.
The middlegame problems are much greater, as Black has all the cards through
at least move 30.
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Date: 21 Nov 2005 09:08:46
From: JEH
Subject: Re: ruy lopez exchange variation
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Is it possible to fish out postions with just King's and this Pawn
Structure from a DataBase and check the performance stats? That would
give an idea of how trivial it is.
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Date: 21 Nov 2005 22:38:54
From: Antonio Torrecillas
Subject: Re: ruy lopez exchange variation
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En/na JEH ha escrit:
> Is it possible to fish out postions with just King's and this Pawn
> Structure from a DataBase and check the performance stats? That would
> give an idea of how trivial it is.
I did that with chessbase: I made a new database of Ruy Lopez exchange
games. Then I made a new database with the games reaching a PURE pawn
ending with no material advantage, with NO white pawn in d3 and with
black doubled pawns.
That mean more than 300 games. But maybe half part is not related stuff
(for ex: black have doubled pawns in the kings wing or when pawn ending
is reached one side wins by force a pawn or some king is too advanced or
position is completely bloqued). I have obtained 60 games from the first
100 but I'm a little tired to continue.
The best idea of how trivial win is can be deduced from that 60 games:
- 4 wins for black, 9 draws and 47 wins for white. ... 3 of those 4 wins
for black were won games for white with big blunders and the fourth is
an equal level ending where white king is in d1 (after Kxd1) whereas
black king is in f5 attacking white pawns.
- Most part of games are children games (u10), u1800 players or blitz games.
- When a typical ending is reached and no beginners are playing in some
cases black resigns early without fight until the end.
Some instructive examples: (well, my news server does not allow me big
messages) ... I hope that to be useful!
[Event "SVK-ch"]
[Site "Topolcianky"]
[Date "1994.??.??"]
[Round "1"]
[White "Kriz, Oliver"]
[Black "Castiglione, io"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "C68"]
[WhiteElo "2285"]
[PlyCount "93"]
[EventDate "1994.??.??"]
[Source "ChessBase"]
[SourceDate "1997.11.17"]
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Bxc6 dxc6 5. Nc3 f6 6. d4 exd4 7. Nxd4
c5 8.Nde2 Qxd1+ 9. Nxd1 Bd7 10. Bf4 O-O-O 11. Ne3 Bc6 12. f3 Ne7 13. Kf2
Ng6 14. Bg3 Be7 15. Rad1 Rhe8 16. Nc3 b5 17. Ncd5 Bxd5 18. Rxd5 c6 19.
Rdd1 c4 20. Nf5 Bf8 21. Bd6 Nh4 22. Bxf8 Nxf5 23. Bc5 Nh6 24. Bb6 Rd7
25. g4 Rb7 26. Bc5 Nf7 27. h4 Rd8 28. Rxd8+ Kxd8 29. Rd1+ Rd7 30. Rxd7+
Kxd7 31. Ke3 Ke6 32. f4 Nd6 33. f5+ Kd7 34. Bxd6 Kxd6 {diagram} 35. Kf4
h6 36. c3 a5 37. a3 a4 38. Ke3 Ke5 39. Kf3 Kd6 40.Kf4 c5 41. Ke3 Ke5 42.
Kf3 b4 43. Ke3 Kd6 44. Kf4 b3 45. Ke3 h5 46. gxh5 Ke5 47. Kf3 1-0
[Event "AUT-chT9596"]
[Site "Vorarlberg"]
[Date "1995.??.??"]
[Round "6"]
[White "Hillgarter, Christoph"]
[Black "Zech, Otto"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "C68"]
[WhiteElo "1885"]
[BlackElo "1665"]
[PlyCount "89"]
[EventDate "1996.??.??"]
[Source "ChessBase"]
[SourceDate "1998.11.10"]
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Bxc6 dxc6 5. Nc3 f6 6. d4 exd4 7. Qxd4
Bg4 8.Qxd8+ Rxd8 9. Bf4 Bd6 10. Ne2 Ne7 11. O-O-O O-O 12. Rd2 Ng6 13.
Bxd6 Rxd6 14.Rhd1 Rfd8 15. Rxd6 Rxd6 16. Nfg1 Ne5 17. f3 Rxd1+ 18. Kxd1
Be6 19. b3 Kf7 20.Kd2 c5 21. Nf4 Nc6 22. Nge2 g5 23. Nxe6 Kxe6 24. a3
Nd4 25. Kd3 Nxe2 26. Kxe2 Ke5 {diagram} 27. Ke3 f5 28. exf5 Kxf5 29. g3
b5 30. c4 c6 31. a4 h5 32. h3 Ke5 33. f4+ gxf4+ 34. gxf4+ Kf6 35. Ke4 b4
36. h4 a5 37. f5 Kf7 38. Ke5 Ke7 39. f6+ Kf8 40.Kf5 Kf7 41. Kg5 Ke6 42.
Kg6 Ke5 43. f7 Kd4 44. f8=Q Kc3 45. Qf3+ 1-0
[Event "Wattens op"]
[Site "Wattens"]
[Date "1993.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Mitschnigg, Monika"]
[Black "Pescoller, Peter"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "C68"]
[WhiteElo "1625"]
[BlackElo "1805"]
[PlyCount "121"]
[EventDate "1993.??.??"]
[Source "ChessBase"]
[SourceDate "1999.11.18"]
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Bxc6 dxc6 5. Nc3 Qd6 6. d4 exd4 7. Nxd4
c5 8.Nde2 Qxd1+ 9. Nxd1 Bg4 10. Ndc3 Nf6 11. Bf4 O-O-O 12. h3 Bxe2
13.Kxe2 g6 14.Rad1 Bg7 15. Rxd8+ Rxd8 16. Rd1 Rxd1 17. Kxd1 Kd7 18. Be5
Ne8 19. Bxg7 Nxg7 20.Kd2 h5 21. g4 hxg4 22. hxg4 g5 23. Ne2 Ne6 24. Ke3
Kd6 25. f4 gxf4+ 26. Nxf4 Ke5 27. Nxe6 Kxe6 {diagram} 28. Kf4 f6 29. c3
c4 30. Ke3 Ke5 31. Kf3 a5 32. Ke3 b5 33. a3 a4 34. Kf3 c6 35. Ke3 c5
36.Kf3 b4 37.Ke3 bxa3 38. bxa3 Kd6 39. Kf4 Ke6 40.e5 fxe5+ 41. Ke4 Kd6
42. g5 Ke6 43. g6 Kf6 44. g7 Kxg7 45. Kxe5 Kf7 46. Kd5 Ke7 47. Kxc5 Kd7
48. Kxc4 Kc6 49.Kb4 Kb6 50. Kxa4 Kc5 51. Kb3 Kb5 52. c4+ Kc5 53.Kc3 Kc6
54. Kd4 Kd6 55. a4 Kc6 56. c5 Kc7 57. Kd5 Kd7 58. c6+ Kc7 59. Kc5 Kc8
60. Kb6 Kb8 61.c7+ 1-0
[Event "Wch U12 Girls"]
[Site "Cannes"]
[Date "1997.??.??"]
[Round "2"]
[White "Levacic, Melissa"]
[Black "Attaran, Anahita"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "C68"]
[PlyCount "95"]
[EventDate "1997.??.??"]
[Source "ChessBase"]
[SourceDate "1999.11.18"]
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Bxc6 dxc6 5. O-O Bd6 6. d4 Bg4 7. dxe5
Bxf3 8.Qxf3 Bxe5 9. Rd1 Qf6 10. Qxf6 Nxf6 11. f4 Bd6 12. Nc3 O-O-O
13.Be3 Bb4 14. e5 Bxc3 15. bxc3 Nd5 16. Rd3 Rd7 17. Kf2 Rhd8 18. Re1
Nxe3 19. Kxe3 Re8 20. Red1 Rde7 21. Kf3 f6 22. exf6 gxf6 23. g4 Re2 24.
R1d2 Rxd2 25. Rxd2 Re1 26. Re2 Rxe2 27. Kxe2 Kd7 {diagram} 28. Kd3 Ke6
29. Ke4 c5 30.h4 h6 31. g5 fxg5 32. hxg5 hxg5 33. fxg5 b6 34. g6 Kf6 35.
Kd5 Kxg6 36. Kc6 Kf5 37. Kxc7 Ke5 38. Kxb6 Kd5 39.a4 Kc4 40. a5 Kd5 41.
Kxa6 Kc6 42. c4 Kc7 43. Kb5 Kb7 44. Kxc5 Ka6 45. Kd6 Kxa5 46. c5 Ka6 47.
c6 Kb6 48. Kd7 1-0
[Event "Brno Olexa mem"]
[Site "Brno"]
[Date "1996.??.??"]
[Round "2"]
[White "Kredl, K."]
[Black "Cesek, L."]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "C68"]
[PlyCount "93"]
[EventDate "1996.??.??"]
[Source "ChessBase"]
[SourceDate "2000.11.22"]
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Bxc6 dxc6 5. d4 exd4 6. Qxd4 Qxd4
7.Nxd4 Bg4 8. f3 Bh5 9. Be3 f6 10. Ne6 Kd7 11. Nxf8+ Rxf8 12. Nc3 Re8
13. O-O-O+ Kc8 14.Rhe1 Ne7 15. Ne2 Rd8 16. Bc5 Rd7 17. Rxd7 Kxd7 18.Rd1+
Ke8 19. Bxe7 Kxe7 20.Rd4 Bf7 21. Nf4 b6 22. a3 g5 23. Ne2 h5 24. Nc3 b5
25. Kd1 c5 26. Nd5+ Bxd5 27.Rxd5 Rd8 28. Rxd8 Kxd8 {diagram} 29. Kd2
Kd7 30. Kd3 Ke6 31. g3 a5 32. f4 c6 33. c3 a4 34. h3 Kd6 35. e5+ Ke6 36.
exf6 Kxf6 37. Ke4 gxf4 38. Kxf4 c4 39. g4 hxg4 40.hxg4 c5 41. g5+ Ke6
42. g6 b4 43. g7 Kf7 44. Ke5 Kxg7 45. Kd5 bxa3 46. bxa3 Kf6 47. Kxc5 1-0
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Date: 22 Nov 2005 07:31:39
From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Claus-J=FCrgen_Heigl?=
Subject: Re: ruy lopez exchange variation
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Antonio Torrecillas wrote:
> Some instructive examples:
> [White "Kriz, Oliver"]
> [Black "Castiglione, io"]
>
> 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Bxc6 dxc6 5. Nc3 f6 6. d4 exd4 7. Nxd4
> c5 8.Nde2 Qxd1+ 9. Nxd1 Bd7 10. Bf4 O-O-O 11. Ne3 Bc6 12. f3 Ne7 13. Kf2
> Ng6 14. Bg3 Be7 15. Rad1 Rhe8 16. Nc3 b5 17. Ncd5 Bxd5 18. Rxd5 c6 19.
> Rdd1 c4 20. Nf5 Bf8 21. Bd6 Nh4 22. Bxf8 Nxf5 23. Bc5 Nh6 24. Bb6 Rd7
> 25. g4 Rb7 26. Bc5 Nf7 27. h4 Rd8 28. Rxd8+ Kxd8 29. Rd1+ Rd7 30. Rxd7+
> Kxd7 31. Ke3 Ke6 32. f4 Nd6 33. f5+ Kd7 34. Bxd6 Kxd6 {diagram}
White follows the standard strategy: play f5, support the e pawn with
Kf4, push the e pawn when the black king is away from d6. Black plays
along but could have put up a stiffer defense.
> 35. Kf4 h6 36. c3 a5 37. a3 a4 38. Ke3
White is waiting for Black running out of pawn moves which is ok because
Black concurs. Black thinks he can forestall e5 if he controls e5 with a
king at d6 or block it with his king on e5. White aims for Kf4 when
Black can't play Kd6. But if Black goes for e5 White can force the black
king away eventually. This is why: White has access to f4 through e3 and
f3 and Black has access to d6 from c7, d7, e7, c5 and e5. But note that
c5, e5, and c7-d7-e7 are disconnected. So if Black advances his king to
c5 or e5 White can play Ke3-f3 and keep connection to f4 but Black can't
move on a square that connects to d6, he only can occupy d6 itself. If
Black plays Ke5 or Kc5 and has no more pawn moves White can force the
Black king from d6 simply by Ke3-f3-f4.
Now the question: What if Black answers Ke3 with Ke7? Now if White tries
the tempo manouvre Ke3-f3-f4 Black simply answers with Ke7-d7-d6. White
has two connected squares which connect to f4 but Black has even three
connected squares to d6 so White can't out-tempo Black.
So Ke3 is getting White nowhere if Black defended with Ke7. White better
looks for a better continuation here and there is one. White doesn't
have to wait for the black king to be away and can force the
breakthrough here and now. Black can keep his king at d6 only with pawn
moves.
38. e5! fxe5+ (after 38...Ke7 39. g5 hxg5 (39...h5 40. exf6 gxf6 41. g6)
40. hxg5 fxe5 41. Kxe5 White goes for the queenside) 39. Ke4
What has happened? Essentially White sacrificed a pawn to lose a tempo
so Black is to move and will have to move his king away from d6 as soon
as he runs out of other moves. The loss of the pawn is only temporary as
White will win it back when Black moves his king away. White's king is
almost in the same situation: White wants to keep the attack on e5 and
e4 is the only square where White can keep up this attack. So is it just
a matter of who runs out of pawn moves first? Not quite, as another
thing has changed. As the black pawn moved from f6 to e5 the remaining
white pawns are now able to advance on their own, and as they are three
against two (e5 is passed by and can't brake the pawns) they can create
a passed pawn. It is the threat of creating a passed pawn that
eventually forces the black king to give up his position at d6.
39...a4 (giving up the pawn 39...Kd7 40. Kxe5 Ke7 41. g5 followed by f6
is game over) 40. a3 c5 41. g5 h5 (trading the h pawns doesn't make a
difference. It's white f and g against black g pawn.) 42. g6
Now White is threatening 43. f6 gxf6 44. g7 creating an unstoppable
passed pawn so Black finally has to give up his position at d6.
42...Ke7 43. Kxe5 b5 (if the king moves f6 wins) 44. Kd5 Kf6 45. Ke4!
(not 45. Kxc4? Kxf5 as both sides will get queens.) 45...Ke7 46. Ke5 b3
(Black ran out of pawn moves) 47. f6 (47. Kd5 Kf6 48. Ke4 Ke7 49. Ke5
followed by f6 is also possible) 47...gxf6+ (47...Kf8 48. f7 and White
goes for the queenside) 48. Kf5 (same procedure as every year) 48...Ke8
49. Ke6 Kf8 50. Kxf6 Kg8 51. g7 Kh7 52. Kf7 Kh6 53. g8R! (queening is
stalemate!) and mate in two moves.
> Ke5 39. Kf3 Kd6 40.Kf4 c5 41.
> Ke3 Ke5 42. Kf3 b4 43. Ke3 Kd6 44. Kf4 b3 45. Ke3 h5 46. gxh5 Ke5
> 47. Kf3 1-0
> [White "Mitschnigg, Monika"]
> [Black "Pescoller, Peter"]
> 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Bxc6 dxc6 5. Nc3 Qd6 6. d4 exd4 7. Nxd4
> c5 8.Nde2 Qxd1+ 9. Nxd1 Bg4 10. Ndc3 Nf6 11. Bf4 O-O-O 12. h3 Bxe2
> 13.Kxe2 g6 14.Rad1 Bg7 15. Rxd8+ Rxd8 16. Rd1 Rxd1 17. Kxd1 Kd7 18. Be5
> Ne8 19. Bxg7 Nxg7 20.Kd2 h5 21. g4 hxg4 22. hxg4 g5 23. Ne2 Ne6 24. Ke3
> Kd6 25. f4 gxf4+ 26. Nxf4 Ke5
Easier is 26...Nd4 27. c3 Nc6 with the plan Ne5, c4 and c5. White then
can't move away his Nf4 because of Nd3 and Black destroys the White
queenside. Also the white king has to keep control of d3 because again
Nd3 and White can't afford to trade knights at d3 creating a passed pawn
for Black. Basically White will be restricted to Ke3-e2-e3. After 28. g5
White has built a fence against the black king, so not much can happen
for both sides.
> 27. Nxe6 Kxe6 {diagram} 28. Kf4 f6 29. c3
> c4 30. Ke3 Ke5 31. Kf3 a5
This is the decisive error. To understand this position several things
need to be considered. Black can't maintain his king position at e5
because White has an endless supply of waiting moves (Ke3-f3) and Black
sooner or later will run out of pawn moves. A white king at f4 will be
inevitable. With a white king at f4 Black must be able to move his king
to e6 or else White follows up with Kf5 and will create a passed pawn.
So somewhere in the future, White Kf4 versus black Ke6 will occur. White
then can create a passed outside pawn with e5 fxe5+ Ke4 just as in the
game. The passed outside pawn will be used to lure the black king far
away to the kingside so that the white king is able to gobble up the
queenside. This means Black munches the g pawn, White munches the e pawn
and then the white king walks over to the queenside and munches the
other pawns. If the black pawns are advanced the white king has easy
access to the black pawns. Just watch how it is done in the game.
If the black pawns are not advanced, the white king does not have easy
access to the black pawns, especially if Black keeps control over d6 and
c6. For illustration, look at 31...Kd6! 32. Kf4 Ke6 33. e5 fxe5+ 34. Ke4
Kf6 35. g5+ Ke6 (35...Kxg5 with a counterattack against the white pawns
is also possible, the text line shows how the black pawns can be
defended. To prevent the white king from intruding into the black
position, the black king has to have access to f7 after White captures
e5 while the pawn at c7 controls d6.) 36. g6 Kf6 37. g7 Kxg7 38. Kxe5
Kf7. Ok, White can capture c4, but this is the surplus pawn Black can
afford to lose. After that it's still three versus three, the black king
is back in the middle and the white king doesn't have a route to the
black pawns. White has no chance to force a win.
White can refine his plan by forcing Black to advance his pawns a little
but not enough. To begin with, moving his king around doesn't do
anything for White because Black can move his king around, too. Black
just has to be sure to be able to play Ke6 if White plays Kf4. For
example 31...Kd6 32. Kf3 Ke5 33. Ke3 Kd6. All White can do after 32. Kf4
Ke6 is to resort to pawn moves. There are not many available. b3 or b4
is out of the question because Black will trade the pawn and afterwards
can create a passed pawn on the a file winning the game for Black!
What's left is the a pawn.
31...Kd6 32. Kf4 Ke6 33. a3 a5.
Black moves the a-pawn because he wants to maintain control of d6 and
c6. If White advances his pawn any further Black can counterattack on
the queenside and keep the balance. For example 34. a4 c6 35. e5 fxe5+
36. Ke4 b5 37. g5 (37. axb5? cxb5 38. g5 b4 (threat bxc3 and a4) 39.
cxb4 cxb4 40. g6 (40. Ke3 Kf5) 40...b3 plan c3. White can't stop the b
pawn while Black can stop the g pawn. Black wins) 37...bxa4 38. g6 Kf6
39. g7 Kxg7 40. Kxe5. The black pawns are easy prey but there is a lot
to be captured so Black has time for another counterattack. 40...Kg6 41.
Kd4 Kf5 42. Kxc4 Ke4 43. Kc5 (43. b4? axb3 44. Kxb3 Kd3 and Black wins)
43...Kd3 44. Kxc6 Kc2 (or 44...Kc4 45. Kb6 a3 46. bxa3 a4 47. Ka5 Kb3
48. c4 Kxa3 49. c5 draw) 45. Kb5 Kxb2 46. Kxa4 Kxc3 47. Kxa5 draw.
34. e5 fxe5+ 35. Ke4 Kf6 36. a4
If White attempts to exploit the availability of d5 Black can
counterattack by way of the kingside. 36. Kd5 Kg5 37. Kxe5 Kxg4 38. Kd4
(or 38. Ke6 Kf4 39. Kd7 Ke4 40. Kxc7 Kd3 41. Kb6! (White can't afford
41. Kxb7? Kc2 42. Kb6 Kxb2 43. Kxa5 Kxa3! -+) 41...Kc2 42. Kxa5 Kxb2 43.
Kb4 b5 44. Kxb5 Kxc3 draw) 38...Kf3 39. Kxc4 Ke3 40. Kb5 Kd3 41. Kxa5
Kc2 42. Kb4 Kxb2 43. c4 c5+ 44. Kxc5 Kxa3 draw.
36...Ke6
The queenside pawn structure must be maintained as long as possible. If
Black gives up control of c6 he loses control of d6 as well. 36...b6 37.
Kd5! c6+! (37...Kg5 38. Kxe5 Kxg4 39. Kd5 Kf4 40. Kc6 Ke4 41. Kxc7 Kd3
42. Kxb6 Kc2 43. Kxa5 Kxb2 44. Kb4 +-) 38. Ke4! and White wins: 38...b5
(if 38...Kg5 39. Kxe5 and White has access to d6 +- or 38...Ke6 39. g5
b5 40. g6 bxa4 41. g7 Kf7 42. Kxe5 Kxg7 43. Kd6 Kf6 44. Kxc6 Ke5 45. Kc5
+-)39. g5+ Kxg5 40. axb5! cxb5 41. Kxe5 b4 42. Kd4 bxc3 (42...Kf5 43.
cxb4) 43. Kxc3 Kf5 44. Kxc4.
37. g5 b6
This is the last concession Black has to make but it isn't enough to
lose. Although control of c6 is lost Black keeps control of d6 and can
defend his pawns with his king.
38. g6 Kf6 39. g7 (39. Kd5 Kxg6 doesn't make a difference because White
still has to capture e5) 39...Kxg7 40. Kxe5 Kf7 41. Kd5 Ke7 42. Kxc4
(after 42. Kc6 Kd8 White has to settle for c4 anyway) 42...c6! (prevents
Kb5) 43. b4 axb4 44. cxb4 (44. Kxb4 Kd6 45. c4 Kc7 46. a5 Kb7 draw)
44...Kd6 45. Kd4 c5+ draw.
> 32. Ke3 b5 33. a3 a4 34. Kf3 c6 35. Ke3 c5
> 36.Kf3 b4 37.Ke3 bxa3 38. bxa3 Kd6 39. Kf4 Ke6 40.e5 fxe5+ 41. Ke4 Kd6
> 42. g5 Ke6 43. g6 Kf6 44. g7 Kxg7 45. Kxe5 Kf7 46. Kd5 Ke7 47. Kxc5 Kd7
> 48. Kxc4 Kc6 49.Kb4 Kb6 50. Kxa4 Kc5 51. Kb3 Kb5 52. c4+ Kc5 53.Kc3 Kc6
> 54. Kd4 Kd6 55. a4 Kc6 56. c5 Kc7 57. Kd5 Kd7 58. c6+ Kc7 59. Kc5 Kc8
> 60. Kb6 Kb8 61.c7+ 1-0
Claus-Juergen
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Date: 24 Nov 2005 00:09:02
From: Antonio Torrecillas
Subject: Re: ruy lopez exchange variation
|
En/na Claus-J�rgen Heigl ha escrit:
> Antonio Torrecillas wrote:
>> [White "Kriz, Oliver"]
>> [Black "Castiglione, io"]
>> (...)
>> {diagram}
>
> White follows the standard strategy: play f5, support the e pawn with
> Kf4, push the e pawn when the black king is away from d6. Black plays
> along but could have put up a stiffer defense.
>
>> 35. Kf4 h6 36. c3 a5 37. a3 a4 38. Ke3
In the very instructive comments which follow, I suppose 38.e5 can be
37.e5 because later in the line white plays a3 and black ...a4
>> [White "Mitschnigg, Monika"]
>> [Black "Pescoller, Peter"]
>> 27. Nxe6 Kxe6 {diagram} 28. Kf4 f6 29. c3 c4 30. Ke3 Ke5 31. Kf3 a5
>
> This is the decisive error. (...)
> Claus-Juergen
Another very instructive comments, thanks CJ!
I would add that this defensive resource do not mean (as other people
here can "mis-interpret") that original position (Pawn structure of Ruy
Lopez exchange after d4 exd4 is not a trivial win (as showed some
examples earlier in this thread), ... Of course, "trivial" can be
replaced by another word when reader prefer not to study endings.
I think I should add the examples where black won in the collection of
+300 games I obtained from my database:
--- all that can be saved as a pgn file for ex: anyname.pgn ---
[Event "KOLTY CC"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "1985.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Scanion, Brian"]
[Black "Kirby, Jon"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "C68"]
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Bxc6 dxc6 5. O-O Bd6 6. d4 Bg4 7. dxe5
Bxf3 8. Qxf3 Bxe5 9. Rd1 Qf6 10. Qxf6 Bxf6 11. c3 Rd8 12. Rxd8+ Bxd8 13.
Bf4 Nf6 14. Nd2 O-O 15. f3 Nh5 16. Be3 Be7 17. Nb3 b6 18. Rd1 Bd6 19.
Rd2 Bf4 20.Bxf4 Nxf4 21. Kf2 Ne6 22. Nd4 Rd8 23. Ke3 Nxd4 24. Rxd4 Rxd4
25. Kxd4 Kf8 {Diagram, Here white king is more advanced than in position
discused} 26.f4 Ke7 27. g4 f6 28. e5 fxe5+ 29. Kxe5 c5 30. h4 c6 31. f5
a5 32. g5 h6 33.gxh6 gxh6 34. h5 b5 35. f6+ Kf7 36. Kf5 c4 37. a3 a4 38.
Ke5 c5 39. Kf5 b4 40.axb4 {big blunder, white is won with 40. Ke5 ...
maybe a trascription mistake in cc game?) 40... cxb4 0-1
[Event "RL-NW9596"]
[Site "Bayern"]
[Date "1996.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Fink, Alexander"]
[Black "Neubauer, Jaroslaus"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "C68"]
[WhiteElo "1845"]
[BlackElo "1955"]
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Bxc6 dxc6 5. d4 exd4 6. Qxd4 Qxd4 7.
Nxd4 Bd6 8. Be3 Ne7 9. Nd2 Ng6 10. O-O Bf4 11. Bxf4 Nxf4 12. Rfe1 O-O
13. g3 Ne6 14.N2b3 Nxd4 15. Nxd4 c5 16. Nf3 f6 17. Re3 Re8 18. Rae1 Bg4
19. Kg2 Rad8 20. e5 Bxf3+ 21. Kxf3 fxe5 22. Rxe5 Rxe5 23. Rxe5 b6 24.
Re7 Rd2 25. Re2 Rd7 26. Kg4 Kf7 27. f4 Rd1 28. Kf3 h5 29. Ke3 Kf6 30.
Rd2 Rxd2 31. Kxd2 Kf5 {Diagram, Here black king is more advanced than in
position discused, ... that is a great difference} 32. Ke3 Kg4 33.Kf2
Kh3 34. Kf3 Kxh2 35. g4 hxg4+ 36.Kxg4 Kg2 37. f5 Kf2 38. Kg5 Kf3 39. Kg6
Kf4 40. Kxg7 Kxf5 41. Kf7 Ke5 42. Ke7 Kd5 43. Kd7 c4 44. Kxc7 Kc5 45.Kb7
a5 46. a4 {blunder ... 46. c3 a4 47. a3 seems equal, but ok, 37...c4 or
36....c4 should be considered } 46... c3 47. b3 b5 48. axb5 Kxb5 49. Kc7
a4 50.bxa4+ Kxa4 51. Kd6 Ka3 52. Kd5 Kb2 53. Kc4 Kxc2 0-1
[Event "Amazonas-ch XXXIV Absoluto sf"]
[Site "Manaus BRA"]
[Date "2002.08.10"]
[Round "3"]
[White "Barbosa Filho, Lucio"]
[Black "Benayon, Elis"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "C68"]
[BlackElo "1820"]
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Bxc6 dxc6 5. d4 exd4 6. Qxd4 Bg4 7.
Qxd8+ Rxd8 8. Nbd2 Be7 9. h3 Be6 10. Nf1 Nf6 11. Ng3 O-O 12. Be3 h6 13.
O-O Rfe8 14. Rfd1 Nd7 15. Nd4 Bf6 16. Nxe6 Rxe6 17. Bd4 Ree8 18. Bxf6
Nxf6 19. f3 Nh7 20. Kf2 Ng5 21. Ke2 Ne6 22. Ke3 g6 23. Ne2 Kg7 24. Nc3
b5 25. Rxd8 Rxd8 26. Rd1 Rxd1 27.Nxd1 g5 28. Nc3 Kf6 29. Ne2 c5 30. f4
gxf4+ 31. Nxf4 Nd4 32. c3 Ne6 33. Nxe6 fxe6 {Diagram, Here pawn
structure is altered respect to position discused} 34. Kf4 e5+ 35. Kg4
Kg6 36. h4 {it seems that 36. c4, 36. a4, and 36. Kh4} are easier wins
36... c4 37.h5+ Kf6 38. Kh4 c5 39. g4 a5 40. g5+ hxg5+ 41. Kg4 a4 42. h6
{Big blunder, the typical tactical motiv appear 42. a3 is an easy win}
42...a3 43. bxa3 b4 44. Kf3 b3 0-1
[Event "NED-ch U14"]
[Site "Rijswijk"]
[Date "2000.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Groot Bruinderink, L."]
[Black "Bottema, Timo"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "C68"]
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Bxc6 dxc6 5. O-O Bd6 6. d4 Qe7 7. dxe5
Bxe5 8.Re1 Nf6 9. Nc3 O-O 10. Bg5 Bg4 11. Qd3 h6 12. Bh4 Rad8 13. Qe3 b6
14. Rad1 c5 15. Rd3 Rxd3 16. Qxd3 b5 17. a3 c6 18. Nxe5 Qxe5 19. Qg3
Qxg3 20. Bxg3 Re8 21.f3 Be6 22. Rd1 c4 23. Rd6 Rc8 24. Kf2 Kf8 25. Ke3
Ke7 26. Be5 Ne8 27. Rd1 f6 28. Bg3 c5 29. Ne2 Rc6 30. Nf4 Nd6 31. Nxe6
Kxe6 32. Rxd6+ Rxd6 33. Bxd6 Kxd6 {Diagram, Here we have the typical
position discused a little advanced} 34. Kf4 g6 35. g4 a5 36. h4 a4
37.g5 hxg5+ 38. hxg5 Ke6 39. gxf6 Kxf6 40. e5+ Ke6 41. Ke4 b4 42. f4
{Big blunder in a won position .. it's important to study endings but
tacticas are important too in all positions. White wins with 42. c3)
42... c3 43. bxc3 bxa3 44. Kd3 a2 45. Kc4 0-1
I hope that games would be interesting to anyone who wants to improve or
simply enjoy chess, ...
AT
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Date: 24 Nov 2005 13:05:01
From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Claus-J=FCrgen_Heigl?=
Subject: Re: ruy lopez exchange variation
|
Antonio Torrecillas wrote:
> 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Bxc6 dxc6 5. d4 exd4 6. Qxd4 Qxd4 7.
> Nxd4 Bd6 8. Be3 Ne7 9. Nd2 Ng6 10. O-O Bf4 11. Bxf4 Nxf4 12. Rfe1 O-O
> 13. g3 Ne6 14.N2b3 Nxd4 15. Nxd4 c5 16. Nf3 f6 17. Re3 Re8 18. Rae1 Bg4
> 19. Kg2 Rad8 20. e5 Bxf3+ 21. Kxf3 fxe5 22. Rxe5 Rxe5 23. Rxe5 b6 24.
> Re7 Rd2 25. Re2 Rd7 26. Kg4 Kf7 27. f4 Rd1 28. Kf3 h5 29. Ke3 Kf6 30.
> Rd2 Rxd2 31. Kxd2 Kf5 {Diagram, Here black king is more advanced than in
> position discused, ... that is a great difference} 32. Ke3 Kg4 33.Kf2
> Kh3 34. Kf3 Kxh2 35. g4 hxg4+ 36.Kxg4 Kg2 37. f5 Kf2 38. Kg5 Kf3 39. Kg6
> Kf4 40. Kxg7 Kxf5 41. Kf7 Ke5 42. Ke7 Kd5 43. Kd7 c4 44. Kxc7 Kc5 45.Kb7
> a5 46. a4 {blunder ... 46. c3 a4 47. a3 seems equal, but ok, 37...c4 or
> 36....c4 should be considered }
I agree, as Black is lost here if White played 46. c3 a4 47. a3 Kb5 48.
Kc8 Kc6 49. Kb8 Kb5 50. Kb7 Kc5 51. Kc7 Kb5 52. Kd6. Black should attack
the white pawns with his king and 36...c4 saves one or two tempi which
is a lot in a pawn endgame.
> 46... c3 47. b3 b5 48. axb5 Kxb5 49. Kc7
> a4 50.bxa4+ Kxa4 51. Kd6 Ka3 52. Kd5 Kb2 53. Kc4 Kxc2 0-1
>
> [Event "NED-ch U14"]
> [Site "Rijswijk"]
> [Date "2000.??.??"]
> [Round "?"]
> [White "Groot Bruinderink, L."]
> [Black "Bottema, Timo"]
> [Result "0-1"]
> [ECO "C68"]
>
> 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Bxc6 dxc6 5. O-O Bd6 6. d4 Qe7 7. dxe5
> Bxe5 8.Re1 Nf6 9. Nc3 O-O 10. Bg5 Bg4 11. Qd3 h6 12. Bh4 Rad8 13. Qe3 b6
> 14. Rad1 c5 15. Rd3 Rxd3 16. Qxd3 b5 17. a3 c6 18. Nxe5 Qxe5 19. Qg3
> Qxg3 20. Bxg3 Re8 21.f3 Be6 22. Rd1 c4 23. Rd6 Rc8 24. Kf2 Kf8 25. Ke3
> Ke7 26. Be5 Ne8 27. Rd1 f6 28. Bg3 c5 29. Ne2 Rc6 30. Nf4 Nd6 31. Nxe6
> Kxe6 32. Rxd6+ Rxd6 33. Bxd6 Kxd6 {Diagram, Here we have the typical
> position discused a little advanced} 34. Kf4 g6 35. g4 a5 36. h4 a4
> 37.g5 hxg5+ 38. hxg5 Ke6 39. gxf6 Kxf6 40. e5+ Ke6 41. Ke4 b4 42. f4
> {Big blunder in a won position .. it's important to study endings but
> tacticas are important too in all positions. White wins with 42. c3)
> 42... c3 43. bxc3 bxa3 44. Kd3 a2 45. Kc4 0-1
White should play c3 in move 37 at the latest as Black could play c3 in
move 38 or 39 and win. Incredibly after 40...Ke6 White can only barely
escape into draw if he played c3. 41. c3 Kd5 42. Kg5 Kxe5 43. Kxg6 Kf7
44. Kf6 Kxf3 45. Ke5 b4! 46. Kd5 (46. cxb4 cxb4 47. Kd4 c3 48. bxc3 a3
-+) 46...b3 47. Kxc4 Ke3 48. Kxc5 (48. Kb5 Kd3 49. Kxa4 Kc2 loses)
48...Kd3 49. c4 Kc2 50. Kd4 Kxb2 and both sides get a new queen. The
extra pawn for Black isn't enough to win.
Claus-Juergen
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Date: 25 Nov 2005 19:27:15
From: Antonio Torrecillas
Subject: Re: ruy lopez exchange variation
|
Thanks again Claus-Juergen
Two nice lines to learn and enjoy! In apparently easy positions you have
found exact continuations discovering us how full of possibilities can
be a pawn ending.
In first game, your line with 48.Kc8!! is a win very difficult to find.
In second game, your saving line is beyond my capacity and only
tablebases and very few players in the world can know if that Q+P vs Q
ending is draw or win. (only a key typo correction, 47....Kf4)
I forgot to add to those examples I posted the following:
- The only wins for black I found in the first 100 games were or bad
versions of that typical ending or games won for white with big blunders
who lead to defeat. That can help us to understand if that ending (the
typical one) is won (and not only "advantageous" as somene here wrote).
- It seems that main resource for black to win is the typical
combination to promote a pawn sacrificing many queen wing pawns seen in
last exmaples. That resource is easy to avoid playing c3,"b2", a3 or
similarly playing a4, b3, c4.
- And main resource for black to avoid defeat (to obtain draw) is to
block the position completely (as we saw in some exmaples) or to obtain
an efective blockade with the king after having weakened white pawn
formation (as we have seen in some lately example Claus Juergen
commented here)
Antonio T.
En/na Claus-J�rgen Heigl ha escrit:
> Antonio Torrecillas wrote:
>
>> 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Bxc6 dxc6 5. d4 exd4 6. Qxd4 Qxd4 7.
>> Nxd4 Bd6 8. Be3 Ne7 9. Nd2 Ng6 10. O-O Bf4 11. Bxf4 Nxf4 12. Rfe1 O-O
>> 13. g3 Ne6 14.N2b3 Nxd4 15. Nxd4 c5 16. Nf3 f6 17. Re3 Re8 18. Rae1
>> Bg4 19. Kg2 Rad8 20. e5 Bxf3+ 21. Kxf3 fxe5 22. Rxe5 Rxe5 23. Rxe5 b6
>> 24. Re7 Rd2 25. Re2 Rd7 26. Kg4 Kf7 27. f4 Rd1 28. Kf3 h5 29. Ke3 Kf6
>> 30. Rd2 Rxd2 31. Kxd2 Kf5 {Diagram, Here black king is more advanced
>> than in position discused, ... that is a great difference} 32. Ke3 Kg4
>> 33.Kf2 Kh3 34. Kf3 Kxh2 35. g4 hxg4+ 36.Kxg4 Kg2 37. f5 Kf2 38. Kg5
>> Kf3 39. Kg6 Kf4 40. Kxg7 Kxf5 41. Kf7 Ke5 42. Ke7 Kd5 43. Kd7 c4 44.
>> Kxc7 Kc5 45.Kb7 a5 46. a4 {blunder ... 46. c3 a4 47. a3 seems equal,
>> but ok, 37...c4 or 36....c4 should be considered }
>
> I agree, as Black is lost here if White played 46. c3 a4 47. a3 Kb5 48.
> Kc8 Kc6 49. Kb8 Kb5 50. Kb7 Kc5 51. Kc7 Kb5 52. Kd6. Black should attack
> the white pawns with his king and 36...c4 saves one or two tempi which
> is a lot in a pawn endgame.
>
>> 46... c3 47. b3 b5 48. axb5 Kxb5 49. Kc7 a4 50.bxa4+ Kxa4 51. Kd6 Ka3
>> 52. Kd5 Kb2 53. Kc4 Kxc2 0-1
>
>> [White "Groot Bruinderink, L."]
>> [Black "Bottema, Timo"]
>>
>> 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Bxc6 dxc6 5. O-O Bd6 6. d4 Qe7 7.
>> dxe5 Bxe5 8.Re1 Nf6 9. Nc3 O-O 10. Bg5 Bg4 11. Qd3 h6 12. Bh4 Rad8 13.
>> Qe3 b6 14. Rad1 c5 15. Rd3 Rxd3 16. Qxd3 b5 17. a3 c6 18. Nxe5 Qxe5
>> 19. Qg3 Qxg3 20. Bxg3 Re8 21.f3 Be6 22. Rd1 c4 23. Rd6 Rc8 24. Kf2 Kf8
>> 25. Ke3 Ke7 26. Be5 Ne8 27. Rd1 f6 28. Bg3 c5 29. Ne2 Rc6 30. Nf4 Nd6
>> 31. Nxe6 Kxe6 32. Rxd6+ Rxd6 33. Bxd6 Kxd6 {Diagram, Here we have the
>> typical position discused a little advanced} 34. Kf4 g6 35. g4 a5 36.
>> h4 a4 37.g5 hxg5+ 38. hxg5 Ke6 39. gxf6 Kxf6 40. e5+ Ke6 41. Ke4 b4
>> 42. f4 {Big blunder in a won position .. it's important to study
>> endings but tacticas are important too in all positions. White wins
>> with 42. c3) 42... c3 43. bxc3 bxa3 44. Kd3 a2 45. Kc4 0-1
>
> White should play c3 in move 37 at the latest as Black could play c3 in
> move 38 or 39 and win. Incredibly after 40...Ke6 White can only barely
> escape into draw if he played c3. 41. c3 Kd5 42. Kg5 Kxe5 43. Kxg6 Kf7
> 44. Kf6 Kxf3 45. Ke5 b4! 46. Kd5 (46. cxb4 cxb4 47. Kd4 c3 48. bxc3 a3
> -+) 46...b3 47. Kxc4 Ke3 48. Kxc5 (48. Kb5 Kd3 49. Kxa4 Kc2 loses)
> 48...Kd3 49. c4 Kc2 50. Kd4 Kxb2 and both sides get a new queen. The
> extra pawn for Black isn't enough to win.
>
> Claus-Juergen
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Date: 27 Nov 2005 22:34:43
From: Ray Gordon
Subject: Re: ruy lopez exchange variation
|
> Thanks again Claus-Juergen
>
> Two nice lines to learn and enjoy! In apparently easy positions you have
> found exact continuations discovering us how full of possibilities can be
> a pawn ending.
Which was my original point.
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Date: 28 Nov 2005 16:15:53
From: Antonio Torrecillas
Subject: Re: ruy lopez exchange variation
|
En/na Ray Gordon ha escrit:
>>Thanks again Claus-Juergen
>>
>>Two nice lines to learn and enjoy! In apparently easy positions you have
>>found exact continuations discovering us how full of possibilities can be
>>a pawn ending.
>
> Which was my original point.
Please, ... do not disturb!
AT
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Date: 03 Dec 2005 00:23:48
From: Antonio Torrecillas
Subject: Re: ruy lopez exchange variation
|
En/na Antonio Torrecillas ha escrit:
> En/na Ray Gordon ha escrit:
>> I wrote:
>>> Thanks again Claus-Juergen
>>>
>>> Two nice lines to learn and enjoy! In apparently easy positions you
>>> have found exact continuations discovering us how full of
>>> possibilities can be a pawn ending.
>>
>> Which was my original point.
>
> Please, ... do not disturb!
> AT
An addition,
Searching in my library I have found an Study of Euwe as the only
reference in that subject.
The Euwe analysis (with some improvements/corrections) can be found in:
- Maizelis book about pawns endings.
- Speelmann Endgame preparation.
- Fundamental Chess Endings.
- Secrets of pawn endings by Karsten Muller
(If anyone is interested in the page or diagram, ask it)
It seems that Euwe original analysis have two inacuracies in white play
and after BOTH them, black can obtain draw. Later comentators wrote too
that white have other ways to obtain a win with no difficulties.
The draw line consist in white mistakenly giving black a reserve extra
tempo and opening the king wing in a worst form for white (not the one
we posted here with the idea of some f5 (see firsts posts).
---------------------------------
After that I need to correct my first words, I would say now "the
position seems won and there are some easy paths to victory, but white
must be careful because there are some wrong ways too"
After that correction Ron words continue being acurate:
"take all the pieces off except for kings, and assume that black's-e for
white's d-pawn trade happens, as it almost always does. Notice how
white's kingside pawn majority can create a passed pawn, whereas black's
queenside majority can't. All else being equal,then, in the endgame
white will create a passed pawn on the kingside, use it to distract the
black king, then gobble up enough queenside pawns to make the win trivial"
Terry words seems acurate too:
"This is a trivial win. Black cannot force a paased pawn. White can and
uses his majority to force a distant passed pawn."
In both cases acurate play is needed to avoid those wrong paths.
AT
Ps: And I hope not to read any comment of Ray/Roy Parker Gordon here
because He wrote nonsense messages many times in this thread:
1) "Both sides have pawn majorities, so I would hardly call this a
'trivial' win."
2) (to Terry) "... Show the win, then.
What's your rating?"
3) "it's possible for the king to go to the other side, wipe out the
pawns, and wind up in a queen ending."
4) (after I posted an example explaining white must avoid to block the
game) He wrote "I'm saying that it's not a foregone conclusion in every
possible position of that type, especially if the board is locked up.
5) "Note that Black's pawns begin all the way in the back, thus
effectively ruling out transposition into a queen ending by having each
king gobble up the other side's pawns and promoting."
6) "I would agree the endgame is more promising for White, but White has
to win for the opening to be playable."
The only post Ray/Roy was luckyly right seems: "I've seen many 'solved'
endgames refuted down the road."
but He mistakenly added "I've also seen many endgames like the ones from
the Exchange Lopez (which I used to play) where king position, pawn
position, and timing all came into play, and yes, where queen endings
wound up being contested."
I add He wrote no single move about any of the amount of lines posted.
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Date: 04 Dec 2005 16:42:44
From:
Subject: Re: ruy lopez exchange variation
|
Antonio Torrecillas wrote:
> position seems won and there are some easy paths to victory, but white
> must be careful because there are some wrong ways too"
>
> white will create a passed pawn on the kingside, use it to distract the
> black king, then gobble up enough queenside pawns to make the win trivial"
>
> "This is a trivial win. Black cannot force a paased pawn. White can and
> uses his majority to force a distant passed pawn."
>
interesting; but what if black tries to avoid queen exchange ?
and what would you say about the RL Berlin defence ?
regards
PS new update of our E-book:
"How to improve your opening play"
at:
http://superchess.com
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Date: 04 Dec 2005 17:58:50
From: Ron
Subject: Re: ruy lopez exchange variation
|
In article <[email protected] >,
[email protected] wrote:
> interesting; but what if black tries to avoid queen exchange ?
Part of what makes the exchange lopez difficult for black (although,
honestly, I find it one of the easier defenses to handle, if only
because most of the people I play against don't understand white's goals
well enough) is that it's hard to avoid the queen exchange without
creating a host of other problems.
But it's important for players of the black pieces to remember that just
because the queens come off doesn't make it an endgame.
> and what would you say about the RL Berlin defence ?
This is, obviously, a very well respected defense. It has something of a
drawing reputation at high levels but IMO that's more or less irrelevant
until you become pretty strong.
-Ron
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| |
Date: 16 Nov 2005 07:00:33
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: ruy lopez exchange variation
|
Ray Gordon wrote:
> > I've just recently started playing the Exchange Variation and was
> > wondering if somebody can explain to me the logic of 4...dxc6. Why not
> > play 4...bxc6 setting yourself up for d5 later and fighting for the
> > middle?
>
> After 4...bxc6, Black's light-squared bishop is hindered in its development,
> plus Black gets three "pawn islands" instead of two, and a much weaker
> endgame structure.
Also, after 4. ... bxc6, white can play an immediate d4 and retake with
the queen (5. d4 exd4 6. Qxd4), giving white pretty solid control over
the center of the board.
Richard
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Date: 17 Nov 2005 14:57:41
From: bellatori
Subject: Re: ruy lopez exchange variation
|
I have 129 games in my database with bxc6 and White wins 2 to 1. Kasparov
and Karpov both have played O-O against it. The reasons given by the other
respondents all seem sensible... pawn islands, slow development.
[Event "Asiag Ludi Univ sim"]
[Site "Asiag"]
[Date "1991.09.10"]
[Round "1"]
[White "Kasparov, Garry"]
[Black "Rigoni, V."]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "C68"]
[WhiteElo "2800"]
[PlyCount "83"]
[EventDate "1991.09.10"]
[EventType "simul"]
[EventRounds "20"]
[EventCountry "ITA"]
[Source "ChessBase"]
[SourceDate "1999.11.16"]
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Bxc6 bxc6 5. O-O Nf6 6. Nxe5 Bd6 7. Nf3
Be7 8.
e5 Nd5 9. c4 Nf4 10. d4 Ng6 11. Nc3 d5 12. exd6 cxd6 13. h3 Bf5 14. Re1
O-O 15.
b3 d5 16. c5 Qd7 17. Bg5 f6 18. Be3 Bd8 19. Na4 Rb8 20. Nd2 Bc7 21. Nb6
Qf7 22.
Nf1 Nh4 23. Ng3 Qg6 24. Qh5 Bxg3 25. Qxg6 Bxf2+ 26. Bxf2 Nxg6 27. g4 Be4
28.
Nd7 Rb4 29. Nxf8 Nxf8 30. Rxe4 dxe4 31. Re1 Ne6 32. Rxe4 Kf7 33. Kf1 Nxc5
34.
Re2 Ne6 35. Rc2 Nxd4 36. Bxd4 Rxd4 37. Rxc6 Rd3 38. Rxa6 Rxh3 39. Rb6 Re3
40.
a4 Rc3 41. a5 Kg6 42. a6 1-0
Got to admire the technique....
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Date: 17 Nov 2005 21:47:39
From: Ron
Subject: Re: ruy lopez exchange variation
|
In article
<[email protected] >,
"bellatori" <[email protected] > wrote:
> I have 129 games in my database with bxc6 and White wins 2 to 1. Kasparov
> and Karpov both have played O-O against it. The reasons given by the other
> respondents all seem sensible... pawn islands, slow development.
Well, it's important to understand what black's plan is the exchange ruy.
He's trying to with the middlegame. Even without queens, he needs to
attack and play aggressively. Because the endgame is trivially lost for
him (even after dxc6.)
(If this isn't immediately obvious to you, take all the pieces off
except for kings, and assume that black's-e for white's d-pawn trade
happens, as it almost always does. Notice how white's kingside pawn
majority can create a passed pawn, whereas black's queenside majority
can't. All else being equal,then, in the endgame white will create a
passed pawn on the kingside, use it to distract the black king, then
gobble up enough queenside pawns to make the win trivial.)
So black needs to play aggressively. He needs to develop his pieces, use
his bishop pair (that e-for-d trade helps him in that respect).
Now look again at dxc6 or bxc6. The endgame is lost anyway, but bxc6
gives black a pawn he has to worry about defending. Defending = inactive
pieces = no middlegame play. dxc6, on the other hand, gets the c8 bishop
into play instantly, speeding black's development for the all-important
middlegame clash.
-Ron
|
| | | | |
Date: 18 Nov 2005 10:05:21
From: Ray Gordon
Subject: Re: ruy lopez exchange variation
|
> (If this isn't immediately obvious to you, take all the pieces off
> except for kings, and assume that black's-e for white's d-pawn trade
> happens, as it almost always does. Notice how white's kingside pawn
> majority can create a passed pawn, whereas black's queenside majority
> can't. All else being equal,then, in the endgame white will create a
> passed pawn on the kingside, use it to distract the black king, then
> gobble up enough queenside pawns to make the win trivial.)
Both sides have pawn majorities, so I would hardly call this a "trivial"
win.
|
| | | | | |
Date: 18 Nov 2005 11:35:15
From: David Richerby
Subject: Re: ruy lopez exchange variation
|
Ray Gordon <[email protected] > wrote:
>> (If this isn't immediately obvious to you, take all the pieces off
>> except for kings, and assume that black's-e for white's d-pawn trade
>> happens, as it almost always does. Notice how white's kingside pawn
>> majority can create a passed pawn, whereas black's queenside majority
>> can't. All else being equal,then, in the endgame white will create a
>> passed pawn on the kingside, use it to distract the black king, then
>> gobble up enough queenside pawns to make the win trivial.)
>
> Both sides have pawn majorities, so I would hardly call this a "trivial"
> win.
Which part of, ``Notice how white's kingside pawn majority can create a
passed pawn, whereas black's queenside majority can't,'' was causing
problems?
I wouldn't describe the win as ``trivial'' as I'm a pretty weak player.
But even I know the basics of how to achieve it. It's part of that
``being back in book'' thing that you so like to talk about in the
endgame.
Dave.
--
David Richerby Solar-Powered Hilarious Cat (TM): it's
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ like a cat but it's a bundle of laughs
and it doesn't work in the dark!
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 18 Nov 2005 11:47:21
From: Terry
Subject: Re: ruy lopez exchange variation
|
"David Richerby" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:pVA*[email protected]...
> Ray Gordon <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> (If this isn't immediately obvious to you, take all the pieces off
>>> except for kings, and assume that black's-e for white's d-pawn trade
>>> happens, as it almost always does. Notice how white's kingside pawn
>>> majority can create a passed pawn, whereas black's queenside majority
>>> can't. All else being equal,then, in the endgame white will create a
>>> passed pawn on the kingside, use it to distract the black king, then
>>> gobble up enough queenside pawns to make the win trivial.)
>>
>> Both sides have pawn majorities, so I would hardly call this a "trivial"
>> win.
>
> Which part of, ``Notice how white's kingside pawn majority can create a
> passed pawn, whereas black's queenside majority can't,'' was causing
> problems?
>
> I wouldn't describe the win as ``trivial'' as I'm a pretty weak player.
> But even I know the basics of how to achieve it. It's part of that
> ``being back in book'' thing that you so like to talk about in the
> endgame.
>
>
> Dave.
I think you would find it trivial if you actually played it.
It almost wins itself.
Regards
|
| | | | | | | |
Date: 21 Nov 2005 10:16:44
From: David Richerby
Subject: Re: ruy lopez exchange variation
|
Terry <[email protected] > wrote:
> "David Richerby" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> I wouldn't describe the win as ``trivial'' as I'm a pretty weak player.
>
> I think you would find it trivial if you actually played it.
> It almost wins itself.
I set up the following position on Friday night and played it out against
Fritz on full strength with half an hour each on the clocks.
White: Kg1, pawns a2, b2, c2, e4, f2, g2, h2
Black: Kg8, pawns a6, b7, c7, c6, f7, g7, h7
(This position occurs in Mueller and Lamprecht, but with the kings on e1
and e8. I didn't look at that before trying to play it myself.)
It took me five attempts to win.
1. I botched and let the kingside get closed with an isolated passed
e-pawn in a stupid place;
2. thought I had a reasonable plan but we both queened at the same time
and I managed to lose the queen ending;
3. I miscalculated while trying to create a king-side passer and lost;
4. a different miscalculation and I get my queen but Fritz doesn't resign
and I can't see how to win the resulting queen vs four advanced passed
pawns ending and end up with a draw by repetition (Fritz shows the
win);
5. victory!
So, I'm not sure if ``fairly weak player can beat full-power Fritz at the
fifth attempt'' makes it trivial. But it's not all that hard.
Dave.
--
David Richerby Hungry Cheese (TM): it's like a lump
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ of cheese but it'll eat you!
|
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Date: 21 Nov 2005 18:07:01
From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Claus-J=FCrgen_Heigl?=
Subject: Re: ruy lopez exchange variation
|
David Richerby wrote:
> So, I'm not sure if ``fairly weak player can beat full-power Fritz at the
> fifth attempt'' makes it trivial. But it's not all that hard.
Let's say it is not trivial but a matter of technique. I guess if you
practise this again you would win on a more regular basis even against
Fritz.
Claus-Juergen
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Date: 22 Nov 2005 09:45:45
From: David Richerby
Subject: Re: ruy lopez exchange variation
|
=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Claus-J=FCrgen_Heigl?= <[email protected] > wrote:
> David Richerby wrote:
>> So, I'm not sure if ``fairly weak player can beat full-power Fritz at the
>> fifth attempt'' makes it trivial. But it's not all that hard.
>
> Let's say it is not trivial but a matter of technique. I guess if you
> practise this again you would win on a more regular basis even against
> Fritz.
I think the five games I played were sufficient practice for that. :-)
Pity I prefer 1.d4, really...
Dave.
--
David Richerby Radioactive Mouldy Sword (TM): it's
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ like a razor-sharp blade but it's
starting to grow mushrooms and it'll
make you glow in the dark!
|
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Date: 21 Nov 2005 17:15:43
From: Ray Gordon
Subject: Re: ruy lopez exchange variation
|
>> So, I'm not sure if ``fairly weak player can beat full-power Fritz at the
>> fifth attempt'' makes it trivial. But it's not all that hard.
>
> Let's say it is not trivial
I already said that, and was reamed for it.
I've seen computers do amazing things from "lost" positions which are
"trivial." May anyone who thinks otherwise be stuck in a Queen v. Knight
ending in time pressure, with the queen, and needing a win.
I also grew up reading "Basic Chess Endings," and have an inherent
disrespect for endgame analysis which lasts to this day.
|
| | | | | | | |
Date: 18 Nov 2005 18:11:11
From: Antonio Torrecillas
Subject: Re: ruy lopez exchange variation
|
En/na Terry ha escrit:
>>>>(If this isn't immediately obvious to you, take all the pieces off
>>>>except for kings, and assume that black's-e for white's d-pawn trade
>>>>happens, as it almost always does. Notice how white's kingside pawn
>>>>majority can create a passed pawn, whereas black's queenside majority
>>>>can't. All else being equal,then, in the endgame white will create a
>>>>passed pawn on the kingside, use it to distract the black king, then
>>>>gobble up enough queenside pawns to make the win trivial.)
>>>
>>>Both sides have pawn majorities, so I would hardly call this a "trivial"
>>>win.
Yes, it's a trivial win as anyone here but Ray agree,
Ray with that comment shows once more He is not as strong as He write
constantly in RGCA.
And my experience tells me that after asking "what's your rating" to
Terry, He will stop posting in this thread.
As someone wrote here, Ray will discover how trivial is this win after
playing it only once.
Curiously, trivial win in "only pawns endgame" do not mean a win with
bishops or rooks for each player. To know what are the endings with that
structure playable for black is a non trivial question.
AT
|
| | | | | | | | |
Date: 18 Nov 2005 21:15:14
From: Terry
Subject: Re: ruy lopez exchange variation
|
"Antonio Torrecillas" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> En/na Terry ha escrit:
>>>>>(If this isn't immediately obvious to you, take all the pieces off
>>>>>except for kings, and assume that black's-e for white's d-pawn trade
>>>>>happens, as it almost always does. Notice how white's kingside pawn
>>>>>majority can create a passed pawn, whereas black's queenside majority
>>>>>can't. All else being equal,then, in the endgame white will create a
>>>>>passed pawn on the kingside, use it to distract the black king, then
>>>>>gobble up enough queenside pawns to make the win trivial.)
>>>>
>>>>Both sides have pawn majorities, so I would hardly call this a "trivial"
>>>>win.
>
> Yes, it's a trivial win as anyone here but Ray agree,
>
> Ray with that comment shows once more He is not as strong as He write
> constantly in RGCA.
>
> And my experience tells me that after asking "what's your rating" to
> Terry, He will stop posting in this thread.
>
> As someone wrote here, Ray will discover how trivial is this win after
> playing it only once.
>
> Curiously, trivial win in "only pawns endgame" do not mean a win with
> bishops or rooks for each player. To know what are the endings with that
> structure playable for black is a non trivial question.
>
> AT
>
Our resident 'openings expert' Mr Gordon seems to have a problem
with the Rut Lopez Exchange.
Regards
|
| | | | | | | | | |
Date: 19 Nov 2005 13:58:43
From: Henri H. Arsenault
Subject: Re: ruy lopez exchange variation
|
It may be worth pointing out that a single passed pawn does not always
win, and it NEVER wins unless the side with the pawn has the
opposition. If there are pawns on both sides of the board and no
pieces, then it usually wins, but how can one force the exchange of
all the pieces against an opponent who refuses to exchange?
Andalso, having an extra pawn on one side does not always guarantee a
passed pawn by force.
Henri
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Date: 21 Nov 2005 10:01:53
From: David Richerby
Subject: Re: ruy lopez exchange variation
|
Henri H. Arsenault <arseno@phy.*nospam*ulaval.ca > wrote:
> It may be worth pointing out that a single passed pawn does not always
> win, and it NEVER wins unless the side with the pawn has the
> opposition.
That's not true. If the defending king is outside the square of the
passed pawn, and the defender cannot create a passed pawn himself, the
attacker wins without needing the opposition.
Dave.
--
David Richerby Artificial Tool (TM): it's like a
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ handy household tool that's made
of plastic!
|
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Date: 19 Nov 2005 21:23:22
From: Antonio Torrecillas
Subject: Re: ruy lopez exchange variation
|
En/na Henri H. Arsenault ha escrit:
> It may be worth pointing out that a single passed pawn does not always
> win, and it NEVER wins unless the side with the pawn has the
> opposition. If there are pawns on both sides of the board and no
> pieces, then it usually wins, but how can one force the exchange of
> all the pieces against an opponent who refuses to exchange?
>
> Andalso, having an extra pawn on one side does not always guarantee a
> passed pawn by force.
>
> Henri
Hello Henri,
It's true that in a "king+pawn vs king" the "passed pawn" does not
assure the win in all cases, but we are here discussing a different pawn
ending with many paws in both sides. In that case efectively "there are
pawns on both sides of the board and no pieces" and it's an easy win
(well, ... not as easy for computers at blitz mode as I wrote).
(1) Respect to your comment about the difficulty af exchanging all
pieces, I wrote some messages ago "Curiously, trivial win in only pawns
endgame do not mean a win with bishops or rooks for each player. To know
what are the endings with that structure playable for black is a non
trivial question."
I was refering to the big draw chances when the ending is a pure bishop
one (no matter bishops are of opposite color or not). The knight ending
offer maybe the best winning chances and the rook ending is in the
middle of advantage degree.
With many pieces in the board, we have a complex ending.
(2) Respect to your comment "having an extra pawn on one side does not
always guarantee a passed pawn by force". I think in that ending white
can obtain a passed pawn in kings wing in all cases, and black can not
obtain a passed pawn in queen wing. That do not mean that obtain a
passed pawn mean a win but with 7 pawn in the board white must avoid
bloqued positions (which are the kind of positions computer do not
understand and played in my COMP vs COMP blitz games)
AT
|
| | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 19 Nov 2005 15:38:52
From: Terry
Subject: Re: ruy lopez exchange variation
|
"Henri H. Arsenault" <arseno@phy.*nospam*ulaval.ca > wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> It may be worth pointing out that a single passed pawn does not always
> win, and it NEVER wins unless the side with the pawn has the
> opposition. If there are pawns on both sides of the board and no
> pieces, then it usually wins, but how can one force the exchange of
> all the pieces against an opponent who refuses to exchange?
>
> Andalso, having an extra pawn on one side does not always guarantee a
> passed pawn by force.
>
> Henri
I agree with you but it was originally pointed out that with all
the pieces off it is a trivial win for white.
I like to play black - the two bishops can be very strong and
there is a long way to go until all the pieces are off.
Regards
|
| | | | | |
Date: 18 Nov 2005 10:52:01
From: Terry
Subject: Re: ruy lopez exchange variation
|
"Ray Gordon" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>> (If this isn't immediately obvious to you, take all the pieces off
>> except for kings, and assume that black's-e for white's d-pawn trade
>> happens, as it almost always does. Notice how white's kingside pawn
>> majority can create a passed pawn, whereas black's queenside majority
>> can't. All else being equal,then, in the endgame white will create a
>> passed pawn on the kingside, use it to distract the black king, then
>> gobble up enough queenside pawns to make the win trivial.)
>
> Both sides have pawn majorities, so I would hardly call this a "trivial"
> win.
>
>
>
This is a trivial win. Black cannot force a paased pawn. White can and uses
his majority to force a distant passed pawn.
Regards
|
| | | | | | |
Date: 18 Nov 2005 10:54:51
From: Ray Gordon
Subject: Re: ruy lopez exchange variation
|
>>> (If this isn't immediately obvious to you, take all the pieces off
>>> except for kings, and assume that black's-e for white's d-pawn trade
>>> happens, as it almost always does. Notice how white's kingside pawn
>>> majority can create a passed pawn, whereas black's queenside majority
>>> can't. All else being equal,then, in the endgame white will create a
>>> passed pawn on the kingside, use it to distract the black king, then
>>> gobble up enough queenside pawns to make the win trivial.)
>>
>> Both sides have pawn majorities, so I would hardly call this a "trivial"
>> win.
>>
>>
>>
>
> This is a trivial win. Black cannot force a paased pawn. White can and
> uses
> his majority to force a distant passed pawn.
Show the win, then.
What's your rating?
|
| | | | | | | |
Date: 18 Nov 2005 11:45:50
From: Terry
Subject: Re: ruy lopez exchange variation
|
"Ray Gordon" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:%[email protected]...
>>>> (If this isn't immediately obvious to you, take all the pieces off
>>>> except for kings, and assume that black's-e for white's d-pawn trade
>>>> happens, as it almost always does. Notice how white's kingside pawn
>>>> majority can create a passed pawn, whereas black's queenside majority
>>>> can't. All else being equal,then, in the endgame white will create a
>>>> passed pawn on the kingside, use it to distract the black king, then
>>>> gobble up enough queenside pawns to make the win trivial.)
>>>
>>> Both sides have pawn majorities, so I would hardly call this a "trivial"
>>> win.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> This is a trivial win. Black cannot force a paased pawn. White can and
>> uses
>> his majority to force a distant passed pawn.
>
> Show the win, then.
>
> What's your rating?
>
>
>
I have already told you how to win.
My rating is fide 2200 but what does that matter.
Regards
|
| | | | | | | | |
Date: 18 Nov 2005 21:33:55
From: Ray Gordon
Subject: Re: ruy lopez exchange variation
|
>>> This is a trivial win. Black cannot force a paased pawn. White can and
>>> uses
>>> his majority to force a distant passed pawn.
>>
>> Show the win, then.
>>
>> What's your rating?
>>
>>
>>
>
> I have already told you how to win.
Post an example game with actual moves.
If it's a "trivial win" it should be "trivial" to do this.
|
| | | | | | | | | |
Date: 19 Nov 2005 00:05:41
From: Antonio Torrecillas
Subject: Re: ruy lopez exchange variation
|
En/na Ray Gordon ha escrit:
>>>>This is a trivial win. Black cannot force a pased pawn. White can and
>>>>uses his majority to force a distant passed pawn.
>>>
>>>Show the win, then.
>>>
>>>What's your rating?
>>
>>I have already told you how to win.
>
> Post an example game with actual moves.
>
> If it's a "trivial win" it should be "trivial" to do this.
Ray, it seems you are the only one here who need it.
Here you have. I hope to receive a simple thanks.
In First place I used a computer to play this position in a blitz mode
COMP vs COMP but surprisingly in two ocasions computer played very bad
and closed the position reaching a draw position and in many others
computer white won but sometimes in an "unconvincing" way.
I then played myself vs computer.
The idea is the one Ron posted: white has 4 vs 3 pawns and it's easy to
create a passed pawn but black can not do it (the only idea is to play
c5-c4, b5-b4 and a5-a4 and then the known b3 break -I hope you know it-,
but white can avoid tht trick playing c3 and a3 at the right moment).
[Event "Spanish Exchange Ending"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "????.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "AT"]
[Black "COMP"]
[Result "1-0"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "4k3/ppp2ppp/2p5/8/8/8/PPP1PPPP/4K3 w - - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "41"]
[EventDate "2005.??.??"]
1. Kd2 Kd7 2. Kd3 f5 3. e4 fxe4+ 4. Kxe4 Ke6 5. f4 c5 6. g4 b5 7. h4 h6
8. f5+ Kf6 9. Kf4 c4 10. g5+ hxg5+ 11. hxg5+ Ke7 12. Ke5 c6 13. c3 a6
14. a3 a5 15.f6+ gxf6+ 16. gxf6+ Kd7 17. f7 Ke7 18. f8=Q+ Kxf8 19. Kd6
Ke8 20. Kxc6 Kd8 21.Kxb5 1-0
Black can try to close the position moving very few pawns in the kings
wing but white wins easily too.
[Event "Spanish Exchange Ending"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "????.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "AT"]
[Black "COMP"]
[Result "1-0"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "4k3/ppp2ppp/2p5/8/8/8/PPP1PPPP/4K3 w - - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "51"]
[EventDate "2005.??.??"]
1. Kd2 Kd7 2. Kd3 c5 3. Ke4 Kd6 4. g4 c4 5. c3 a5 6. f4 b5 7. h4 a4 8.a3
Ke6 9. f5+ Kd6 10. g5 f6 11. Kf4 Kd5 12. e4+ Kd6 13. g6 h6 14. e5+ fxe5+
15. Ke4 Ke7 16. Kxe5 c6 17. h5 c5 18. Kd5 Kf6 19. Ke4 Ke7 20. Ke5 b4 21.
Kd5 Kf6 22.Ke4 Ke7 23. Ke5 b3 24. f6+ gxf6+ 25. Kf5 Kf8 26. Kxf6 1-0
[Event "Spanish Exchange Ending"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "????.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "AT"]
[Black "COMP"]
[Result "1-0"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "4k3/ppp2ppp/2p5/8/8/8/PPP1PPPP/4K3 w - - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "51"]
[EventDate "2005.??.??"]
1. Kd2 Ke7 2. Kd3 Ke6 3. Ke4 c5 4. g4 b5 5. f4 c4 6. h4 c5 7. f5+ Kd6 8.
g5 f6 9. c3 b4 10. Kf4 Kd5 11. e4+ Kd6 12. a3 b3 13. Kf3 Ke5 14. Ke3 a6
15. Kf3 a5 16. Ke3 Kd6 17. Kf4 a4 18. Ke3 Ke5 19. Kf3 Kd6 20. Kf4 Kd7
21. e5 fxg5+ 22.Kxg5 Ke7 23. h5 Kf7 24. h6 g6 25. fxg6+ hxg6 26. h7 1-0
AT
|
| | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 19 Nov 2005 10:44:46
From: Ray Gordon
Subject: Re: ruy lopez exchange variation
|
> [FEN "4k3/ppp2ppp/2p5/8/8/8/PPP1PPPP/4K3 w - - 0 1"]
> [PlyCount "41"]
> [EventDate "2005.??.??"]
>
> 1. Kd2 Kd7 2. Kd3 f5 3. e4 fxe4+ 4. Kxe4 Ke6 5. f4 c5 6. g4 b5 7. h4 h6 8.
> f5+ Kf6 9. Kf4 c4 10. g5+ hxg5+ 11. hxg5+ Ke7 12. Ke5 c6 13. c3 a6 14. a3
> a5 15.f6+ gxf6+ 16. gxf6+ Kd7 17. f7 Ke7 18. f8=Q+ Kxf8 19. Kd6 Ke8 20.
> Kxc6 Kd8 21.Kxb5 1-0
>
> Black can try to close the position moving very few pawns in the kings
> wing but white wins easily too.
>
> [Event "Spanish Exchange Ending"]
> [Site "?"]
> [Date "????.??.??"]
> [Round "?"]
> [White "AT"]
> [Black "COMP"]
> [Result "1-0"]
> [SetUp "1"]
> [FEN "4k3/ppp2ppp/2p5/8/8/8/PPP1PPPP/4K3
In practice, Black will have locked up the queenside to prevent White from
playing on both sides of the board, for one.
Try putting the Black King at e6, and the Black pawns at a4, b4, c5, and c4,
and then see how "easy" the win is. Let's also advance Black's f-pawn to
f5. Now, queening becomes a viable threat, especially if Black forces White
all the way to the h-file to realize his passed pawn on the k-side. Even if
White queens, he still may not win.
|
| | | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 21 Nov 2005 09:58:47
From: David Richerby
Subject: Re: ruy lopez exchange variation
|
Ray Gordon <[email protected] > wrote:
> Try putting the Black King at e6, and the Black pawns at a4, b4, c5, and
> c4, and then see how "easy" the win is. Let's also advance Black's
> f-pawn to f5.
So you're saying that the evaluation of the ending might change if Black
gets ten free moves? Yeah, I guess that figures.
Dave.
--
David Richerby Radioactive Technicolor Toy (TM):
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ it's like a fun child's toy but it's
in realistic colour and it'll make
you glow in the dark!
|
| | | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 20 Nov 2005 13:11:54
From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Claus-J=FCrgen_Heigl?=
Subject: Re: ruy lopez exchange variation
|
Ray Gordon wrote:
> Try putting the Black King at e6, and the Black pawns at a4, b4, c5, and c4,
> and then see how "easy" the win is. Let's also advance Black's f-pawn to
> f5. Now, queening becomes a viable threat, especially if Black forces White
> all the way to the h-file to realize his passed pawn on the k-side. Even if
> White queens, he still may not win.
Here it goes:
White pawns at a3, b2, c3, e4, f4, g4, h4, Ke3.
Black pawns at a4, b4, c4, c5, f5, g6, h7, Ke6.
White to move.
FEN: 8/7p/4k1p1/2p2p2/ppp1PPPP/P1P2K2/1P6/8 b - -
1. Kf3 Kf6 (1...h5 2. gxh5 gxh5 3. exf5 Kxf5 4. Kf3 is trivial) 2. e5+
Ke6 3. h5 gxh5 (3...Ke7 4. hxg6 hxg6 5. Kg3 plan Kh4-g5 wins; 3...b3 4.
Kg3 Kf7 (4...gxh5 5. g5 followed by Kh4xh5) 5. Kh4 Kg7 6. gxf5 gxf5 7.
Kg5; 3...Kd5 I think this is your main idea 4. hxg6 hxg6 5. gxf5 gxf5 6.
Kg3 Ke4 7. e6 Kd3 8. e7 Kc2 9. cxb4 cxb4 10. axb4 Kxb2 11. e8Q c3 12. b5
c2 13. Qe5+ Ka2 14. Qc3 Kb1 15. Qb4+ Ka2 16. Qxa4+ Kb1 17. Qc4 plan Qxc1
b6) 4. gxf5+ Kxf5 5. Kg3 Kg6 (5...Ke4 is the same as above) 6. Kh4 h6 7.
e6 Kf6 8. f5 and the rest is easy again.
Claus-Juergen
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 20 Nov 2005 22:41:51
From: Antonio Torrecillas
Subject: Re: ruy lopez exchange variation
|
En/na Claus-J�rgen Heigl ha escrit:
> Ray Gordon wrote:
>
>> Try putting the Black King at e6, and the Black pawns at a4, b4, c5,
>> and c4, and then see how "easy" the win is. Let's also advance
>> Black's f-pawn to f5. Now, queening becomes a viable threat,
>> especially if Black forces White all the way to the h-file to realize
>> his passed pawn on the k-side. Even if White queens, he still may not
>> win.
>
> Here it goes:
> (...)
> Claus-Juergen
Thank Claus Juergen, but it seems Ray is not interested in your good
analysis and intentions.
He showed his actual force (or rating) with the comments He posted in
this thead but later He shows no interest in serious discusion and no
interest in reading and commenting the answers He asked for.
------------------
If He have had any minimum chess level He could have posted the only
true problems that ending has: I mean to close too much the position not
allowing white king to enter in black camp.
For example, I wrote I first tried to obtain some COMP vs COMP games at
blitz mode (about 3 second by move) and white obtained easy wins but not
as "convincing" (about the logic of Ron plan) as the examples I posted.
but fourth example was strange because COMP played some BAD moves
reaching a draw position He do not understand.
The critical moment came in the following position:
ASCII
wKd3,Pa4,b2,c4,e4,f4,g3,h3/bKe6,Pa5,b7,c5,c6,f6,g7,h5
FEN
8/1p4p1/2p1kp2/p1p4p/P1P1PP2/3K2PP/1P6/8 w - - 0 9
White seems to have an easy win with 9.f5+!
But COMP played 9.Ke3 Kd6 10.Ke3 g6 11.h4 (allowing 11...f5! with an
easy draw as white king can not penetrate in black position).
I take back last white move giving some extra seconds but COMP played a
similar mistake 11.g4 h4 12.g5 fxg5 ... Here I stopped the computer
because 12...f5 is an easy draw too.
White need to be careful with this idea but in actual games that idea
appear very few times because it's normal to enter in the pawn ending
with some previous pawn exchanges or pawn moves who allow those pawn
exchanges. With less pawns this idea (to close the position) do not
exist in most cases.
AT
|
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Date: 21 Nov 2005 13:32:58
From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Claus-J=FCrgen_Heigl?=
Subject: Re: ruy lopez exchange variation
|
Antonio Torrecillas wrote:
> The critical moment came in the following position:
> ASCII
> wKd3,Pa4,b2,c4,e4,f4,g3,h3/bKe6,Pa5,b7,c5,c6,f6,g7,h5
> FEN
> 8/1p4p1/2p1kp2/p1p4p/P1P1PP2/3K2PP/1P6/8 w - - 0 9
>
> White seems to have an easy win with 9.f5+!
>
> But COMP played 9.Ke3 Kd6 10.Ke3 g6 11.h4 (allowing 11...f5! with an
> easy draw as white king can not penetrate in black position).
Hello Antonio,
my comp has 9. f5+ at the very beginning of his analysis as the best
move, but switches in a fraction of a second to some king move and finds
f5 again only after 17 seconds.
After 9. Ke3 Kd6 10. Kf3 (I assume this is your 10th move) 10...g6 my
comp doesn't find the winning continuation 11. f5 g5 12. h4 Ke5 13. Ke3
Kd6 (13...g4 14. Kd3 Kd6 15. Ke2 followed by Ke3 and Kf4) 14. g4! at
all. It also has 11. h4 as best and switches to 11. Kf2 after 3 minutes
which at least doesn't spoil the position. According to the computer,
play would continue 11...Ke6 12. Kf3 Kd6 and now it finds the critical
f5 after 1:40 minutes. But as I am writing this it switches back to Kf2
again.
Obviously the comp needs more time to have a chance of finding the right
moves but has a lot of difficulties to understand a blockade.
> I take back last white move giving some extra seconds but COMP played a
> similar mistake 11.g4 h4 12.g5 fxg5 ... Here I stopped the computer
> because 12...f5 is an easy draw too.
Yes, although I think after 11. g4 h4 White can win no more.
Claus-Juergen
|
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Date: 21 Nov 2005 20:32:34
From: Antonio Torrecillas
Subject: Re: ruy lopez exchange variation
|
Hello Claus Juergen,
En/na Claus-J�rgen Heigl ha escrit:
> Antonio Torrecillas wrote:
>
>> The critical moment came in the following position:
>> ASCII
>> wKd3,Pa4,b2,c4,e4,f4,g3,h3/bKe6,Pa5,b7,c5,c6,f6,g7,h5
>> FEN
>> 8/1p4p1/2p1kp2/p1p4p/P1P1PP2/3K2PP/1P6/8 w - - 0 9
>>
>> White seems to have an easy win with 9.f5+!
>>
>> But COMP played 9.Ke3 Kd6 10.Kf3 g6 11.h4 (allowing 11...f5! with an
>> easy draw as white king can not penetrate in black position).
>
> Hello Antonio,
>
> my comp has 9. f5+ at the very beginning of his analysis as the best
> move, but switches in a fraction of a second to some king move and finds
> f5 again only after 17 seconds.
As I said I used "blitz COMP", that mean I set initial ending position
in a new game of chessbase and I opened FRITZ-8. After 2-3 seconds I
pressed SPACE to make over the board the best move considered in that
short time and so on ...
I did that because I thought computers could solve that trivial win
easily but it seems I was wrong.
But of course, any player who understand well that ending and that
"dificulty" of allowing to close the position is able to win Kasparov or
Topalov with white.
> After 9. Ke3 Kd6 10. Kf3 (I assume this is your 10th move) 10...g6 my
> comp doesn't find the winning continuation 11. f5 g5 12. h4 Ke5 13. Ke3
> Kd6 (13...g4 14. Kd3 Kd6 15. Ke2 followed by Ke3 and Kf4) 14. g4! at
> all. It also has 11. h4 as best and switches to 11. Kf2 after 3 minutes
> which at least doesn't spoil the position. According to the computer,
> play would continue 11...Ke6 12. Kf3 Kd6 and now it finds the critical
> f5 after 1:40 minutes. But as I am writing this it switches back to Kf2
> again.
Sorry fot the typo mistake, it was 10.Kf3, thanks!
Your lines are deep and instructive enough to be replayed with care. I
also had found that 11.f5! line which is not "a trivial win" but it is
dificult a cause of bad uncorrect white play in previous moves.
As I said those games I commented were COMP-COMP, ... I would have not
played h3 to avoid the position to be closed (if after g4 -in some
moment- the answer is ...h4, my king can play Rg2-h3xh4 -with a previous
g5 if needed- to eat the h4 pawn)
> Obviously the comp needs more time to have a chance of finding the right
> moves but has a lot of difficulties to understand a blockade.
I completely agree.
That happens too in dead draw position with extra non useful material
(all pawns closed and a extra bad bishop or rook).
>> I take back last white move giving some extra seconds but COMP played
>> a similar mistake 11.g4 h4 12.g5 fxg5 ... Here I stopped the computer
>> because 12...f5 is an easy draw too.
>
> Yes, although I think after 11. g4 h4 White can win no more.
It seems so, but maybe ...
> Claus-Juergen
Best regards
AT
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Date: 20 Nov 2005 13:23:46
From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Claus-J=FCrgen_Heigl?=
Subject: Re: ruy lopez exchange variation
|
Claus-J=FCrgen Heigl wrote:
> FEN: 8/7p/4k1p1/2p2p2/ppp1PPPP/P1P2K2/1P6/8 b - -
>=20
> 1. Kf3 Kf6 (1...h5 2. gxh5 gxh5 3. exf5 Kxf5 4. Kf3 is trivial) 2. e5+ =
> Ke6 3. h5=20
I forgot
3...Kd5 4. hxg6 hxg6 5. gxf5 gxf5 6. Kg3 bxc3 7. bxc3 Ke4 8. e6 Kd3 9.=20
e7 Kxc3 10. e8Q Kb3 11. Qb5+ Kxa3 12. Qxc4 +- White captures c and f=20
pawns, trades queen vs a-pawn and wins with his f-pawn.
Claus-Juergen
|
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Date: 19 Nov 2005 13:39:59
From: Antonio Torrecillas
Subject: Re: ruy lopez exchange variation
|
En/na Ray Gordon ha escrit:
> In practice, Black will have locked up the queenside to prevent White from
> playing on both sides of the board, for one.
>
> Try putting the Black King at e6, and the Black pawns at a4, b4, c5, and c4,
> and then see how "easy" the win is. Let's also advance Black's f-pawn to
> f5. Now, queening becomes a viable threat, especially if Black forces White
> all the way to the h-file to realize his passed pawn on the k-side. Even if
> White queens, he still may not win.
Ray, your empty "bla bla bla" do not serve, .. can you improve black
play in any of my three example lines???
AT
|
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Date: 19 Nov 2005 06:21:04
From: Ray Gordon
Subject: Re: ruy lopez exchange variation
|
> [Event "Spanish Exchange Ending"]
> [Site "?"]
> [Date "????.??.??"]
> [Round "?"]
> [White "AT"]
> [Black "COMP"]
> [Result "1-0"]
> [SetUp "1"]
> [FEN "4k3/ppp2ppp/2p5/8/8/8/PPP1PPPP/4K3 w - - 0 1"]
> [PlyCount "51"]
> [EventDate "2005.??.??"]
>
> 1. Kd2 Ke7 2. Kd3 Ke6 3. Ke4 c5 4. g4 b5 5. f4 c4 6. h4 c5 7. f5+ Kd6 8.
> g5 f6 9. c3 b4 10. Kf4 Kd5 11. e4+ Kd6 12. a3 b3 13. Kf3 Ke5 14. Ke3 a6
> 15. Kf3 a5 16. Ke3 Kd6 17. Kf4 a4 18. Ke3 Ke5 19. Kf3 Kd6 20. Kf4 Kd7 21.
> e5 fxg5+ 22.Kxg5 Ke7 23. h5 Kf7 24. h6 g6 25. fxg6+ hxg6 26. h7 1-0
Note that Black's pawns begin all the way in the back, thus effectively
ruling out transposition into a queen ending by having each king gobble up
the other side's pawns and promoting.
|
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Date: 19 Nov 2005 09:00:23
From: Antonio Torrecillas
Subject: Re: ruy lopez exchange variation
|
En/na Ray Gordon ha escrit:
>>[Event "Spanish Exchange Ending"]
>>[Site "?"]
>>[Date "????.??.??"]
>>[Round "?"]
>>[White "AT"]
>>[Black "COMP"]
>>[Result "1-0"]
>>[SetUp "1"]
>>[FEN "4k3/ppp2ppp/2p5/8/8/8/PPP1PPPP/4K3 w - - 0 1"]
>>[PlyCount "51"]
>>[EventDate "2005.??.??"]
>>
>>1. Kd2 Ke7 2. Kd3 Ke6 3. Ke4 c5 4. g4 b5 5. f4 c4 6. h4 c5 7. f5+ Kd6 8.
>>g5 f6 9. c3 b4 10. Kf4 Kd5 11. e4+ Kd6 12. a3 b3 13. Kf3 Ke5 14. Ke3 a6
>>15. Kf3 a5 16. Ke3 Kd6 17. Kf4 a4 18. Ke3 Ke5 19. Kf3 Kd6 20. Kf4 Kd7 21.
>>e5 fxg5+ 22.Kxg5 Ke7 23. h5 Kf7 24. h6 g6 25. fxg6+ hxg6 26. h7 1-0
>
> Note that Black's pawns begin all the way in the back, thus effectively
> ruling out transposition into a queen ending by having each king gobble up
> the other side's pawns and promoting.
Please suggest a move in some moment, ... as I did for you!
If black pawns advance in the kings wing white can obtain easier a
passed pawn as in the first example. This was a lst example showing that
black can not be succesfull trying to close the position.
AT
|
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Date: 19 Nov 2005 10:30:37
From: Ray Gordon
Subject: Re: ruy lopez exchange variation
|
>>>[Event "Spanish Exchange Ending"]
>>>[Site "?"]
>>>[Date "????.??.??"]
>>>[Round "?"]
>>>[White "AT"]
>>>[Black "COMP"]
>>>[Result "1-0"]
>>>[SetUp "1"]
>>>[FEN "4k3/ppp2ppp/2p5/8/8/8/PPP1PPPP/4K3 w - - 0 1"]
>>>[PlyCount "51"]
>>>[EventDate "2005.??.??"]
>>>
>>>1. Kd2 Ke7 2. Kd3 Ke6 3. Ke4 c5 4. g4 b5 5. f4 c4 6. h4 c5 7. f5+ Kd6 8.
>>>g5 f6 9. c3 b4 10. Kf4 Kd5 11. e4+ Kd6 12. a3 b3 13. Kf3 Ke5 14. Ke3 a6
>>>15. Kf3 a5 16. Ke3 Kd6 17. Kf4 a4 18. Ke3 Ke5 19. Kf3 Kd6 20. Kf4 Kd7 21.
>>>e5 fxg5+ 22.Kxg5 Ke7 23. h5 Kf7 24. h6 g6 25. fxg6+ hxg6 26. h7 1-0
>>
>> Note that Black's pawns begin all the way in the back, thus effectively
>> ruling out transposition into a queen ending by having each king gobble
>> up the other side's pawns and promoting.
>
> Please suggest a move in some moment, ... as I did for you!
>
> If black pawns advance in the kings wing white can obtain easier a passed
> pawn as in the first example. This was a lst example showing that black
> can not be succesfull trying to close the position.
I've seen many "solved" endgames refuted down the road. I've also seen many
endgames like the ones from the Exchange Lopez (which I used to play) where
king position, pawn position, and timing all came into play, and yes, where
queen endings wound up being contested.
|
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Date: 19 Nov 2005 13:45:29
From: Antonio Torrecillas
Subject: Re: ruy lopez exchange variation
|
En/na Ray Gordon ha escrit:
>
> I've seen many "solved" endgames refuted down the road. I've also seen many
> endgames like the ones from the Exchange Lopez (which I used to play) where
> king position, pawn position, and timing all came into play, and yes, where
> queen endings wound up being contested.
>
I have seen also new discoveries in pawn endings but made for strong
players who previously knew basic concepts and previous deep works.
This is not the case, there is no published study showing how black can
defend this endgame and you have no secret improvements here. I sent to
you the Maizelis book reference.
If all we are wrong, ... can you show us any move or instructive line to
convince us or maybe a published study demolising all previous knowledge
in that kind of ending?
I would like to read a constructive example from you but unfortunately
this has not been the case in any discussion with you. I wish to be
wrong this time.
AT
|
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Date: 19 Nov 2005 04:41:26
From: Ray Gordon
Subject: Re: ruy lopez exchange variation
|
>>>I have already told you how to win.
>>
>> Post an example game with actual moves.
>>
>> If it's a "trivial win" it should be "trivial" to do this.
>
> Ray, it seems you are the only one here who need it.
Learn to be polite.
Second, it's possible for the king to go to the other side, wipe out the
pawns, and wind up in a queen ending.
|
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Date: 19 Nov 2005 07:56:44
From: Terry
Subject: Re: ruy lopez exchange variation
|
"Ray Gordon" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>>>>I have already told you how to win.
>>>
>>> Post an example game with actual moves.
>>>
>>> If it's a "trivial win" it should be "trivial" to do this.
>>
>> Ray, it seems you are the only one here who need it.
>
> Learn to be polite.
>
> Second, it's possible for the king to go to the other side, wipe out the
> pawns, and wind up in a queen ending.
>
>
>
Spend more time on studying endings instead of openings.
Regards
|
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Date: 19 Nov 2005 08:57:19
From: Antonio Torrecillas
Subject: Re: ruy lopez exchange variation
|
En/na Ray Gordon ha escrit:
>>>>I have already told you how to win.
>>>
>>>Post an example game with actual moves.
>>>
>>>If it's a "trivial win" it should be "trivial" to do this.
>>
>>Ray, it seems you are the only one here who need it.
>
> Learn to be polite.
>
> Second, it's possible for the king to go to the other side, wipe out the
> pawns, and wind up in a queen ending.
>
Ray, learn to be humble!
Second: thanks for your interesting addition.
Please, "post an exmaple game with actual moves".
AT
|
| | | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 19 Nov 2005 07:33:38
From: Ron
Subject: Re: ruy lopez exchange variation
|
In article <[email protected] >,
"Ray Gordon" <[email protected] > wrote:
> Second, it's possible for the king to go to the other side, wipe out the
> pawns, and wind up in a queen ending.
Sure, it's possible to hypothesize a situation where black's king
activity made up for his structural deficiencies, but in practical play
you simply don't see that happen. If black sends his king to the
queenside, then white plays defense with his king on the queenside, and
creates a passed pawn on the kingside, forcing black to give ground with
his king.
If black goes to the kingside, then the white king goes there, too - and
supports the passed pawn, driving the black king back, and then swinging
over to the queenside to gobble black's (now exposed) queenside pawns.
> Note that Black's pawns begin all the way in the back, thus effectively
> ruling out transposition into a queen ending by having each king gobble up
> the other side's pawns and promoting.
Even if black advances his queenside pawns, all he really does is make
them easier targets for white.
Hey, Ray, I've always given you credit for being a 2000-ish player. Your
refusal to recognize the basics of this position - which is really quite
simple - is startling.
You said, earlier, post games. Antonio did that. So now I'm throwing
that back at you. Show us how black can save these endings.
Or admit you're wrong and shut up.
|
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Date: 19 Nov 2005 10:37:26
From: Ray Gordon
Subject: Re: ruy lopez exchange variation
|
>
> Hey, Ray, I've always given you credit for being a 2000-ish player. Your
> refusal to recognize the basics of this position - which is really quite
> simple - is startling.
2000 players don't take anything for granted.
I also don't take the endgame setups as granted. We should give Black the
ideal setup to prove that the pawns are fatal.
|
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Date: 19 Nov 2005 11:40:13
From: Terry
Subject: Re: ruy lopez exchange variation
|
"Ray Gordon" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> >
>> Hey, Ray, I've always given you credit for being a 2000-ish player. Your
>> refusal to recognize the basics of this position - which is really quite
>> simple - is startling.
>
> 2000 players don't take anything for granted.
>
> I also don't take the endgame setups as granted. We should give Black the
> ideal setup to prove that the pawns are fatal.
>
>
>
An icc 1500 player is certainly no 2000 player and this thread shows it.
Regards
|
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Date: 21 Nov 2005 17:10:56
From: Ray Gordon
Subject: Re: ruy lopez exchange variation
|
>>> Hey, Ray, I've always given you credit for being a 2000-ish player. Your
>>> refusal to recognize the basics of this position - which is really quite
>>> simple - is startling.
>>
>> 2000 players don't take anything for granted.
>>
>> I also don't take the endgame setups as granted. We should give Black
>> the ideal setup to prove that the pawns are fatal.
>>
>>
>>
>
> An icc 1500 player is certainly no 2000 player and this thread shows it.
A USCF player with a 1900 rating and a peak 2000 rating (which I am) is
hardly far from a "2000 player."
I've seen lots of "chess knowledge" get refuted over the years. I never
said they weren't right, only that I wouldn't treat what they write as
gospel.
|
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Date: 19 Nov 2005 10:29:00
From: Ray Gordon
Subject: Re: ruy lopez exchange variation
|
>> Second, it's possible for the king to go to the other side, wipe out the
>> pawns, and wind up in a queen ending.
>
> Sure, it's possible to hypothesize a situation where black's king
> activity made up for his structural deficiencies, but in practical play
> you simply don't see that happen. If black sends his king to the
> queenside, then white plays defense with his king on the queenside, and
> creates a passed pawn on the kingside,
With what? His wand?
|
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Date: 21 Nov 2005 09:48:02
From: David Richerby
Subject: Re: ruy lopez exchange variation
|
Ray Gordon <[email protected] > wrote:
>> then white plays defense with his king on the queenside, and creates a
>> passed pawn on the kingside,
>
> With what? His wand?
First law of holes, Ray: when in one, stop digging.
Dave.
--
David Richerby Slimy Old-Fashioned Gerbil (TM):
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ it's like a children's pet but it's
perfect for your grandparents and
covered in goo!
|
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Date: 21 Nov 2005 11:27:16
From: Terry
Subject: Re: ruy lopez exchange variation
|
"David Richerby" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:cjC*[email protected]...
> Ray Gordon <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> then white plays defense with his king on the queenside, and creates a
>>> passed pawn on the kingside,
>>
>> With what? His wand?
>
> First law of holes, Ray: when in one, stop digging.
>
>
A lot of sense in this statement :-)
Regards
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 19 Nov 2005 17:58:49
From: Ron
Subject: Re: ruy lopez exchange variation
|
In article <[email protected] >,
"Ray Gordon" <[email protected] > wrote:
> > Sure, it's possible to hypothesize a situation where black's king
> > activity made up for his structural deficiencies, but in practical play
> > you simply don't see that happen. If black sends his king to the
> > queenside, then white plays defense with his king on the queenside, and
> > creates a passed pawn on the kingside,
>
> With what? His wand?
So what you're saying is that you don't know how to create a passed pawn
from an uncompromised 4-on-3 pawn majority without the help of your king?
Wow.
-Ron
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 21 Nov 2005 17:09:21
From: Ray Gordon
Subject: Re: ruy lopez exchange variation
|
>> > Sure, it's possible to hypothesize a situation where black's king
>> > activity made up for his structural deficiencies, but in practical play
>> > you simply don't see that happen. If black sends his king to the
>> > queenside, then white plays defense with his king on the queenside, and
>> > creates a passed pawn on the kingside,
>>
>> With what? His wand?
>
> So what you're saying is that you don't know how to create a passed pawn
> from an uncompromised 4-on-3 pawn majority without the help of your king?
>
> Wow.
I'm saying that it's not a foregone conclusion in every possible position of
that type, especially if the board is locked up.
|
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Date: 20 Nov 2005 10:08:21
From: Terry
Subject: Re: ruy lopez exchange variation
|
"Ron" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>,
> "Ray Gordon" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> > Sure, it's possible to hypothesize a situation where black's king
>> > activity made up for his structural deficiencies, but in practical play
>> > you simply don't see that happen. If black sends his king to the
>> > queenside, then white plays defense with his king on the queenside, and
>> > creates a passed pawn on the kingside,
>>
>> With what? His wand?
>
> So what you're saying is that you don't know how to create a passed pawn
> from an uncompromised 4-on-3 pawn majority without the help of your king?
>
> Wow.
>
> -Ron
Ray - our supposed 2100 player seems to have given up on this thread :-)
I dont know of any 2100 player who wouldnt see this ending as trivial.
This is a guy who believes only openings should be studied.
Regards
Regards
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 19 Nov 2005 18:15:35
From: Terry
Subject: Re: ruy lopez exchange variation
|
"Ron" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>,
> "Ray Gordon" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> > Sure, it's possible to hypothesize a situation where black's king
>> > activity made up for his structural deficiencies, but in practical play
>> > you simply don't see that happen. If black sends his king to the
>> > queenside, then white plays defense with his king on the queenside, and
>> > creates a passed pawn on the kingside,
>>
>> With what? His wand?
>
> So what you're saying is that you don't know how to create a passed pawn
> from an uncompromised 4-on-3 pawn majority without the help of your king?
>
> Wow.
>
> -Ron
Give up on this one Ray :-) You getting into trouble.
Regards
|
| | | | | | | | | | | | |
Date: 19 Nov 2005 09:33:35
From: Antonio Torrecillas
Subject: Re: ruy lopez exchange variation
|
En/na Ron ha escrit:
> (...)
> Hey, Ray, I've always given you credit for being a 2000-ish player. Your
> refusal to recognize the basics of this position - which is really quite
> simple - is startling.
>
> You said, earlier, post games. Antonio did that. So now I'm throwing
> that back at you. Show us how black can save these endings.
>
> Or admit you're wrong and shut up.
Ray, here you have the choice of continue a discussion logically
providing variations or improvements for other lines.
In this case there is no need to hyde any secret weapon because that
kind of ending is KNOWN and it is teached to beginners in my country.
For example this ending is covered in Maizelis "Pawn endings" diagram
384 with two little diferences (Black pawn a7 is in a6 and white pawn e2
is in e4). The line published was given by Euwe and Maizelis wrote the
text: "this is only a single example line but very instructive".
A similar example was in the dossier I used in Catalan federation in
courses for instuction to new chess teachers. In that dossier we
recommended to teach some diferent basic ideas in schools and in the
ending section there was a chapter about PAWN endings with a list with
easy to understand concepts which can be teached:
- king+pawn vs king.
- king+pawn vs king+pawn with both pawns bloqued in the same column.
- Active king with many pawns.
- Passed pawn "far away" (with a similar explanation to Ron did here).
- Passed pawn protected.
AT
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Date: 18 Nov 2005 07:04:00
From: Terry
Subject: Re: ruy lopez exchange variation
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"Ron" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article
> <[email protected]>,
> "bellatori" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> I have 129 games in my database with bxc6 and White wins 2 to 1. Kasparov
>> and Karpov both have played O-O against it. The reasons given by the
>> other
>> respondents all seem sensible... pawn islands, slow development.
>
> Well, it's important to understand what black's plan is the exchange ruy.
>
> He's trying to with the middlegame. Even without queens, he needs to
> attack and play aggressively. Because the endgame is trivially lost for
> him (even after dxc6.)
>
> (If this isn't immediately obvious to you, take all the pieces off
> except for kings, and assume that black's-e for white's d-pawn trade
> happens, as it almost always does. Notice how white's kingside pawn
> majority can create a passed pawn, whereas black's queenside majority
> can't. All else being equal,then, in the endgame white will create a
> passed pawn on the kingside, use it to distract the black king, then
> gobble up enough queenside pawns to make the win trivial.)
>
> So black needs to play aggressively. He needs to develop his pieces, use
> his bishop pair (that e-for-d trade helps him in that respect).
>
> Now look again at dxc6 or bxc6. The endgame is lost anyway, but bxc6
> gives black a pawn he has to worry about defending. Defending = inactive
> pieces = no middlegame play. dxc6, on the other hand, gets the c8 bishop
> into play instantly, speeding black's development for the all-important
> middlegame clash.
>
> -Ron
An excellent sumy.
Regards
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Date: 16 Nov 2005 14:23:10
From: Ray Gordon
Subject: Re: ruy lopez exchange variation
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> I've just recently started playing the Exchange Variation and was
> wondering if somebody can explain to me the logic of 4...dxc6. Why not
> play 4...bxc6 setting yourself up for d5 later and fighting for the
> middle?
After 4...bxc6, Black's light-squared bishop is hindered in its development,
plus Black gets three "pawn islands" instead of two, and a much weaker
endgame structure.
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Date: 16 Nov 2005 05:59:08
From:
Subject: Re: ruy lopez exchange variation
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I am not sure but I think the answer is that dxc6 frees the light
squared bishop immediately. With bxc6, you have to wait until you can
play ...d5 (or play ...d6, in which case you are wasting a tempo by
moving the d pawn first to d6 and then later on, if successful to d5)
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