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Main
Date: 27 Dec 2005 07:06:17
From:
Subject: please help me analyse this game...
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I was playing white in this game. I have attempted the key positions
but anything that you could add would be helpful.
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 Nf6 4.0-0 Nxe4!?
Opening the center when he's not fully developed is not a good idea.
5.Re1 Nd6 6.Nxe5 Nxe5 7.Rxe5+ Be7 8.Bd3 0-0 9.Rh5 g6 10.Rh3 Bf6 11.Nc3
Bg7 12.b3 b6 13.Bb2 Bb7 14.Rb1 Qg5 15.Rg3 Qd8 16.Qg4 h5 17.Qh3 c5
18.Re1 Re8 19.Rxe8+ Qxe8 20.Kf1 Bc6 21.Re3 Qd8 22.Rg3 Ne8 23.Bxg6 !?
I think this bishop sac is sound. White will get some pawns and expose
the black king and also pin the black bishop.
fxg6 24.Rxg6 Nf6 25.Nd5? The wrong followup to the bishop sac.
25.Qg3 would have been very strong!
[25.Qg3 Qf8 (25...Ne8 26.Nd5 Bxd5 27.Bxg7 Nxg7 28.Rxg7+ Kh8 29.Qg6 Bg8
30.Qxh5+ Bh7 31.Qxh7#) 26.Nd5 A) 26...Nxd5 27.Rxg7+ Kh8 28.Rg8+ Kh7
29.Rxf8 Rxf8 30.Qg7#; B) 26...Bxd5 27.Bxf6 Bf7 (27...Kh7 28.Rxg7+ Kh8
29.Rg8+ Kh7 30.Rxf8 Rxf8 31.Qg7#) ; C) 26...Ne8 27.Bxg7 Nxg7 28.Qg5
Bxd5 (28...Kf7 29.Qf6+ Ke8 30.Nc7#) 29.Rxg7+ Qxg7 30.Qxd5+ Qf7 31.Qxa8+
Qf8 (31...Kg7 32.Qxa7) ]
25...Bxd5 26.Bxf6 Qxf6 27.Rxf6 Bxf6 28.Qxh5
So now I have a Queen and pawn for rook and two minor pieces.
Technically pointwise I am up a pawn but he has two bishops. And the
number of pieces in the endgame is sometimes more important than their
value. i.e multiple weak pieces are more powerful than a strong single
piece.
Be6 29.Qf3 Rf8 30.Qb7 Bd4 31.Qxa7 Rxf2+ 32.Ke1 Kf7 33.Qxb6 Rxg2 34.Qd6
Rg1+ 35.Ke2 Rg2+ 36.Kd3 Rf2 37.a4 Rf3+ 38.Ke2 Rf2+ 39.Ke1 Rf5 40.a5
Re5+ 41.Qxe5 Bxe5 42.a6 Bd5
The final result was 0-1
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Date: 04 Jan 2006 00:20:01
From: Ray Gordon
Subject: Re: please help me analyse this game...
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>I was playing white in this game. I have attempted the key positions
> but anything that you could add would be helpful.
>
> 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 Nf6 4.0-0 Nxe4!?
>
>
> Opening the center when he's not fully developed is not a good idea.
I would take Hydra with Black against any player in the world, at any
tournament time control, at any time, and lay 3-1 odds on a win (White gets
draw odds).
The line is perfectly playable and just as sound as the rest of the Ruy,
though the options are far more limited.
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Date: 04 Jan 2006 17:45:45
From: Antonio Torrecillas
Subject: Re: please help me analyse this game...
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En/na Ray Gordon ha escrit:
>>I was playing white in this game. I have attempted the key positions
>>but anything that you could add would be helpful.
>>
>>1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 Nf6 4.0-0 Nxe4!?
>>
>>Opening the center when he's not fully developed is not a good idea.
>
> I would take Hydra with Black against any player in the world, at any
> tournament time control, at any time, and lay 3-1 odds on a win (White gets
> draw odds).
>
> The line is perfectly playable and just as sound as the rest of the Ruy,
> though the options are far more limited.
Ray I agree 4...Nxe4 is perfectly playable.
I would not be surprised if any strong GM plays or have played it.
:-)
But I will try to tell (teach?) you something:
HYDRA is an strong chess machine, I agree.
There are many strong chess programs (did you know Fruit, Rybka?).
But an important fact is that there are two kind of people using computers:
1) people who let the computer alone and trust all the computer do.
2) people who use that computers to obtain the better possible result.
Those people can be strong CR players, strong GM or simply "weak"
platers who work well with computers.
HYDRA obtained a great deception (after winning Adams) in Freestyle
PAL/CSS tournament.
Here you have the tournamet where HYDRA did not achive to pass first
Qualifier to play with strongest teams.
Some links
- Hydra misses the quarter-finals of Freestyle tournament
http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=2446
- Amateurs beat GMs in PAL / CSS Freestyle
http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=2467
In the last article we can read Zacks team (Zackary Stephen - 1381 USCF
and Steven Cramton - 1685 USCF), a pair of amateurs from New England
triumphed over the world's strongest computers and many Grandmasters
using computer assistance.
AT
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Date: 05 Jan 2006 14:33:44
From: Ray Gordon
Subject: Re: please help me analyse this game...
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>>>I was playing white in this game. I have attempted the key positions
>>>but anything that you could add would be helpful.
>>>
>>>1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 Nf6 4.0-0 Nxe4!?
>>>
>>>Opening the center when he's not fully developed is not a good idea.
>>
>> I would take Hydra with Black against any player in the world, at any
>> tournament time control, at any time, and lay 3-1 odds on a win (White
>> gets draw odds).
>>
>> The line is perfectly playable and just as sound as the rest of the Ruy,
>> though the options are far more limited.
>
> Ray I agree 4...Nxe4 is perfectly playable.
> I would not be surprised if any strong GM plays or have played it.
> :-)
>
> But I will try to tell (teach?) you something:
>
> HYDRA is an strong chess machine, I agree.
> There are many strong chess programs (did you know Fruit, Rybka?).
I grew up playing video games as well as chess, and I'm finding more and
more that video game theory is applicable to chess, in that a video game
teaches you what your mistakes are through its superior programming, just
the way a chess computer does.
Strong machine or not, if Hydra can crush a GM in twenty-five moves with
this line, so can I, if I learn what Hydra did and how.
> But an important fact is that there are two kind of people using
> computers:
> 1) people who let the computer alone and trust all the computer do.
Hopefully I'll play those folk in tournaments, as many of my openings show
up as -2.00 or worse until the tactics settle.
> 2) people who use that computers to obtain the better possible result.
> Those people can be strong CR players, strong GM or simply "weak" platers
> who work well with computers.
I don't play with computers. I use them to analyze my games and explore
opening alternatives.
I've often wondered how my ChessGenius engine would do with my book and my
assistance.
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Date: 05 Jan 2006 18:55:38
From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Claus-J=FCrgen_Heigl?=
Subject: Re: please help me analyse this game...
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Ray Gordon wrote:
> Strong machine or not, if Hydra can crush a GM in twenty-five moves with
> this line, so can I, if I learn what Hydra did and how.
Hello Ray,
if you are into understanding computer chess, have a look at Tim
Krabbe's Open Chess Diary, items #298 and #294. Absolutely fascinating
stuff, while totally incomprehensible. I especially liked the KRBNkrb
endgame in #294, although #298 is also very good.
http://www.xs4all.nl/~timkr/chess2/diary.htm
Greetings
Claus-Juergen
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Date: 28 Dec 2005 12:18:44
From:
Subject: Re: please help me analyse this game...
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Thanks. You pointed out many things that I missed!
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Date: 27 Dec 2005 19:15:32
From: Ron
Subject: Re: please help me analyse this game...
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In article <[email protected] >,
[email protected] wrote:
> I was playing white in this game. I have attempted the key positions
> but anything that you could add would be helpful.
>
> 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 Nf6 4.0-0 Nxe4!?
> Opening the center when he's not fully developed is not a good idea.
The way he plays it, sure. But in fact if you throw in the moves ...a6 &
Ba5 then this is one of the most popular defenses to the Ruy Lopez.
Without that move, it's the Berlin Defense, which might be familiar to
you as the opening Kramnik used so effectively against Kasparov in their
world championship match.
> 5.Re1 Nd6 6.Nxe5 Nxe5 7.Rxe5+ Be7 8.Bd3 0-0 9.Rh5
Overambitious and poor, in my opinion. You'll have the ability to
provoke g6 many times in this game. For example, you could do it right
now with Qh5 (developing another pieces). You're NOT going to mate
black with your R and B alone, here.
> g6 10.Rh3 Bf6 11.Nc3
> Bg7 12.b3 b6 13.Bb2 Bb7 14.Rb1
This awkward positioning of the rook makes me question fianchettoing
your bishop. I think you want to be playing Qg4 followed by Re1 here.
> Qg5 15.Rg3 Qd8
A mistake which makes up for your 14th move. 15 .... Qh4 =.
> 16.Qg4 h5
Downright dubious in my opinion. With the firepower you have trained
on g6, weakening that seems suicidal.
> 17.Qh3 c5
Threatening to trap your bishop. A very strong response is 18.Nb5.
> 18.Re1 Re8 19.Rxe8+ Qxe8 20.Kf1 Bc6 21.Re3 Qd8 22.Rg3 Ne8 23.Bxg6 !?
> I think this bishop sac is sound. White will get some pawns and expose
> the black king and also pin the black bishop.
>
>
> fxg6 24.Rxg6 Nf6 25.Nd5? The wrong followup to the bishop sac.
Nd5 looks winning to me.
> 25.Qg3 would have been very strong!
>
> [25.Qg3 Qf8 (25...Ne8 26.Nd5 Bxd5 27.Bxg7 Nxg7 28.Rxg7+ Kh8 29.Qg6 Bg8
> 30.Qxh5+ Bh7 31.Qxh7#) 26.Nd5 A) 26...Nxd5 27.Rxg7+ Kh8 28.Rg8+ Kh7
> 29.Rxf8 Rxf8 30.Qg7#; B) 26...Bxd5 27.Bxf6 Bf7 (27...Kh7 28.Rxg7+ Kh8
> 29.Rg8+ Kh7 30.Rxf8 Rxf8 31.Qg7#) ; C) 26...Ne8 27.Bxg7 Nxg7 28.Qg5
> Bxd5 (28...Kf7 29.Qf6+ Ke8 30.Nc7#) 29.Rxg7+ Qxg7 30.Qxd5+ Qf7 31.Qxa8+
> Qf8 (31...Kg7 32.Qxa7) ]
I'm not sure. Line C, there are some improvements for both sides.
30. ... Kh7 31.Qxa8 Qa1+ and I'm not sure white has more than a draw.
But there's the possible improvement for white: 27. Nc7! which, I
believe, wins. (28. Rmoves Nxe8 is devastating. The only other option is
something like 27. ... Be4! 28.Rg5 keeps the pressure up in a
complicated position where white is better.
>
>
>
> 25...Bxd5 26.Bxf6 Qxf6 27.Rxf6 Bxf6 28.Qxh5
> So now I have a Queen and pawn for rook and two minor pieces.
> Technically pointwise I am up a pawn but he has two bishops. And the
> number of pieces in the endgame is sometimes more important than their
> value. i.e multiple weak pieces are more powerful than a strong single
> piece.
Well, you missed the best followup, here. 28. Qf5! wins you a bishop,
and, therefore, the game. These quieter followup moves at the end of a
combination are hard to see - and you often don't look around for them
by the time you get there. Nevertheless, this move proves the soundness
of your sacrifice and the Nd5 followup.
After Qxh5 the position is complicated but I think black may be better.
> Be6 29.Qf3 Rf8 30.Qb7 Bd4 31.Qxa7
Just horrible. The only way he can protect that a pawn is by giving up
the b-pawn. But your f-pawn can be protected: 31. f3!
> Rxf2+ 32.Ke1 Kf7 ??
Black returns the favor in spades. 33. c3 1-0.
> 33.Qxb6 Rxg2 34.Qd6
> Rg1+ 35.Ke2 Rg2+ 36.Kd3 Rf2 37.a4
37. c3 (getting your king out of the crossfire) is stronger.
> Rf3+
37. ... Bf5+ 38.Kc4 Rxd2 39. c3 Rc2!
> 38.Ke2 Rf2+ 39.Ke1 Rf5 40.a5
> Re5+ 41.Qxe5 Bxe5 42.a6 Bd5
>
> The final result was 0-1
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