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Date: 17 Oct 2005 15:14:41
From: Folkert van Heusden
Subject: datamining and chess
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A few weeks ago I did a little data-mining on the game of chess. I analyzed (using some scripting, of course) approx 350000 games by grandmasters and rookies. The results can be found here: http://www.vanheusden.com/misc/datamining_on_chess.html
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Date: 25 Oct 2005 02:37:57
From: Predictor
Subject: Re: datamining and chess
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Folkert van Heusden wrote: > A few weeks ago I did a little data-mining on the game of chess. > I analyzed (using some scripting, of course) approx 350000 games by > grandmasters and rookies. > The results can be found here: > http://www.vanheusden.com/misc/datamining_on_chess.html It seems you've collected a number of sumy statistics on a large database of games. I wouldn't call this "data mining". My one suggestion would be to provide proportions as well as raw counts. For instance, the number of times a pawn was moved by white is 2618154, which I can see is greater than for any other piece for white, but what percentage does that represent? As an occasional chess player, I find it vaguely interesting, but I doubt much of this would be useful in indicating what to do in any particular game or situation. -Will Dwinnell http://will.dwinnell.com
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Date: 17 Oct 2005 09:44:26
From: Predictor
Subject: Re: datamining and chess
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Folkert van Heusden wrote: > >> A few weeks ago I did a little data-mining on the game of chess. > >> I analyzed (using some scripting, of course) approx 350000 games by > >> grandmasters and rookies. > >> The results can be found here: > >> http://www.vanheusden.com/misc/datamining_on_chess.html > > That document includes the following statement: > > "White wins 1.30 more often then black." > > Do you mean that white wins 1.3 times for every 1 time won by black? > > Ehr yes: 1.3 times more often. If black wins 10 times, white wins 13 times. That's why I wrote: this would be 1.3 times as often. -Will Dwinnell http://will.dwinnell.com
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Date: 17 Oct 2005 08:17:22
From: Predictor
Subject: Re: datamining and chess
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Folkert van Heusden wrote: > A few weeks ago I did a little data-mining on the game of chess. > I analyzed (using some scripting, of course) approx 350000 games by > grandmasters and rookies. > The results can be found here: > http://www.vanheusden.com/misc/datamining_on_chess.html That document includes the following statement: "White wins 1.30 more often then black." Do you mean that white wins 1.3 times for every 1 time won by black? -Will Dwinnell http://will.dwinnell.com
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Date: 17 Oct 2005 18:13:57
From: Folkert van Heusden
Subject: Re: datamining and chess
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>> A few weeks ago I did a little data-mining on the game of chess. >> I analyzed (using some scripting, of course) approx 350000 games by >> grandmasters and rookies. >> The results can be found here: >> http://www.vanheusden.com/misc/datamining_on_chess.html > That document includes the following statement: > "White wins 1.30 more often then black." > Do you mean that white wins 1.3 times for every 1 time won by black? Ehr yes: 1.3 times more often. If black wins 10 times, white wins 13 times. I was very surprised as everybody always told me there's no difference.
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Date: 18 Oct 2005 00:25:31
From: CeeBee
Subject: Re: datamining and chess
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Folkert van Heusden <[email protected] > wrote in rec.games.chess.analysis: > I was very surprised as everybody always told me there's no difference. I wonder who that "everybody" is. Every random large data collection will give you an approximate white win number of around 37-40%, a black win around 29-31% and the rest draw; no matter what random selection you make. -- CeeBee ***Ancient Wisdom in a Crunchy Treat***
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Date: 19 Oct 2005 14:29:22
From: David Richerby
Subject: Re: datamining and chess
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CeeBee <[email protected] > wrote: > Folkert van Heusden <[email protected]> wrote: >> I was very surprised as everybody always told me there's no difference. > > I wonder who that "everybody" is. Every random large data collection > will give you an approximate white win number of around 37-40%, a black > win around 29-31% and the rest draw; no matter what random selection you > make. Seventy-odd percent of games being decisive seems too high for grand- master games and too low for patzer games. Between complete beginners, each colour wins about half the games, with very few draws. Between grandmasters, White does better, with lots of draws. Dave. -- David Richerby Hungry Peanut (TM): it's like a www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ roasted nut but it'll eat you!
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Date: 18 Oct 2005 08:00:36
From: Few Good Chessmen
Subject: Re: datamining and chess
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"Folkert van Heusden" <[email protected] > wrote in message news:[email protected]... > >> A few weeks ago I did a little data-mining on the game of chess. > >> I analyzed (using some scripting, of course) approx 350000 games by > >> grandmasters and rookies. > >> The results can be found here: > >> http://www.vanheusden.com/misc/datamining_on_chess.html > > That document includes the following statement: > > "White wins 1.30 more often then black." > > Do you mean that white wins 1.3 times for every 1 time won by black? > > Ehr yes: 1.3 times more often. If black wins 10 times, white wins 13 times. > > I was very surprised as everybody always told me there's no difference. Other than this I found rest of the tabled figures useless even you have the sample of million games. And if you added another 10 folds after that still the table is worthless, etc. A well earned Chess Knowledge could easily predicts similiar result relatively. As for winning games - the figures show the only games won at conclusion not from the turning point when they are decisive to the end.
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Date: 18 Oct 2005 01:04:55
From: Vasileios Zografos
Subject: Re: datamining and chess
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"Few Good Chessmen" <[email protected] > wrote in message news:[email protected]... > "Folkert van Heusden" <[email protected]> wrote in message > news:[email protected]... >> >> A few weeks ago I did a little data-mining on the game of chess. >> >> I analyzed (using some scripting, of course) approx 350000 games by >> >> grandmasters and rookies. >> >> The results can be found here: >> >> http://www.vanheusden.com/misc/datamining_on_chess.html >> > That document includes the following statement: >> > "White wins 1.30 more often then black." >> > Do you mean that white wins 1.3 times for every 1 time won by black? >> >> Ehr yes: 1.3 times more often. If black wins 10 times, white wins 13 > times. >> >> I was very surprised as everybody always told me there's no difference. > > Other than this I found rest of the tabled figures useless even you have > the > sample of million games. And if you added another 10 folds after that > still > the table is worthless, etc. A well earned Chess Knowledge could easily > predicts similiar result relatively. As for winning games - the figures > show > the only games won at conclusion not from the turning point when they are > decisive to the end. > > > useless? worthless? wow...you are really a very nice and polite person aren't you? Is that what you do in here? Look around in the postings trying to offend people? This guy was good enough to do so much hard work and generate all this statistical data and kind enough to publish it for us and you call it useless and worthless? Who do you think you are anyway?
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Date: 18 Oct 2005 05:10:42
From: Michael Vondung
Subject: Re: datamining and chess
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On Tue, 18 Oct 2005 01:04:55 +0100, Vasileios Zografos wrote: > wow...you are really a very nice and polite person aren't you? Not wanting to get involved in this, but it's a common observation that good chess players tend to lack in "social skills". I don't know if that makes them "impolite" or "not nice", though, perhaps it's just "no fluff" bluntness and efficiency. I don't necessarily agree that it is efficient, but I don't think the goal is to offend. It's more of a "no bullshit" approach. I'm a sucky chess player, so I'm much more social. ;) M.
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Date: 18 Oct 2005 12:22:31
From: Few Good Chessmen
Subject: Re: datamining and chess
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"Michael Vondung" <[email protected] > wrote in message news:[email protected]... > On Tue, 18 Oct 2005 01:04:55 +0100, Vasileios Zografos wrote: > > > wow...you are really a very nice and polite person aren't you? > > Not wanting to get involved in this, but it's a common observation that > good chess players tend to lack in "social skills". I don't know if that > makes them "impolite" or "not nice", though, perhaps it's just "no fluff" > bluntness and efficiency. I don't necessarily agree that it is efficient, > but I don't think the goal is to offend. It's more of a "no bullshit" > approach. > > I'm a sucky chess player, so I'm much more social. ;) Everyone know for the fact that Capablanca, Jose Raul is Great Chess Player and he also a womanizer...Chess Players might lack the "social skills" among peers (understandable for tournaments player) but nothing was known within close circle of friends and private lifes. Social skills on the Internet is a very touchy subject (we don't know the true gender, intentions, etc behind the scene). I'd be careful if caught too attached, ganging up, etc...
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Date: 18 Oct 2005 04:17:47
From: Vasileios Zografos
Subject: Re: datamining and chess
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Hi Michael, you know what, I would normaly agree with you. And that is the case for more "geniouses", they do lack certain social skills. In the case of this guy however, I had hard time believing he is a good chess player, because he does not understand basic things about chess (see his other postings), and not only that but he insists he is right even after many people try to convience him otherwise. There is nothing with being wrong, many people are. But what really is amazing with him is that he is so stubborn and aroggant to understand when he is wrong. Anyways, I promised myself I will not give him the pleasure of starting another flame war. "Michael Vondung" <[email protected] > wrote in message news:[email protected]... > On Tue, 18 Oct 2005 01:04:55 +0100, Vasileios Zografos wrote: > >> wow...you are really a very nice and polite person aren't you? > > Not wanting to get involved in this, but it's a common observation that > good chess players tend to lack in "social skills". I don't know if that > makes them "impolite" or "not nice", though, perhaps it's just "no fluff" > bluntness and efficiency. I don't necessarily agree that it is efficient, > but I don't think the goal is to offend. It's more of a "no bullshit" > approach. > > I'm a sucky chess player, so I'm much more social. ;) :) what can I say? Both my chess and social skills are virually non-existent. > > M.
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Date: 18 Oct 2005 08:10:24
From: Few Good Chessmen
Subject: Re: datamining and chess
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"Vasileios Zografos" <[email protected] > wrote in message news:1129593899.b9109cd77c8f9fb086024047b8a6a7ee@teranews... > > "Few Good Chessmen" <[email protected]> wrote in message > news:[email protected]... > > "Folkert van Heusden" <[email protected]> wrote in message > > news:[email protected]... > >> >> A few weeks ago I did a little data-mining on the game of chess. > >> >> I analyzed (using some scripting, of course) approx 350000 games by > >> >> grandmasters and rookies. > >> >> The results can be found here: > >> >> http://www.vanheusden.com/misc/datamining_on_chess.html > >> > That document includes the following statement: > >> > "White wins 1.30 more often then black." > >> > Do you mean that white wins 1.3 times for every 1 time won by black? > >> > >> Ehr yes: 1.3 times more often. If black wins 10 times, white wins 13 > > times. > >> > >> I was very surprised as everybody always told me there's no difference. > > > > Other than this I found rest of the tabled figures useless even you have > > the > > sample of million games. And if you added another 10 folds after that > > still > > the table is worthless, etc. A well earned Chess Knowledge could easily > > predicts similiar result relatively. As for winning games - the figures > > show > > the only games won at conclusion not from the turning point when they are > > decisive to the end. > > > > > > > > useless? > worthless? > wow...you are really a very nice and polite person aren't you? > Is that what you do in here? Look around in the postings trying to offend > people? > This guy was good enough to do so much hard work and generate all this > statistical data and kind enough to publish it for us and you call it > useless and worthless? > Who do you think you are anyway? Tell me then numbskull, how do you find it useful? I stressed my points of the figures worthlessness could you even suggest about yours?
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Date: 17 Oct 2005 19:22:06
From: Ron
Subject: Re: datamining and chess
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In article <[email protected] >, Folkert van Heusden <[email protected] > wrote: > I was very surprised as everybody always told me there's no difference. The only "everybody" who would have told you there was no difference would have been people who don't know chess at all. Every serious player knows white has an advantage.
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Date: 17 Oct 2005 10:38:54
From: Angelo DePalma
Subject: Re: datamining and chess
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I don't get it. "Folkert van Heusden" <[email protected] > wrote in message news:[email protected]... >A few weeks ago I did a little data-mining on the game of chess. > I analyzed (using some scripting, of course) approx 350000 games by > grandmasters and rookies. > The results can be found here: > http://www.vanheusden.com/misc/datamining_on_chess.html >
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Date: 17 Oct 2005 18:14:18
From: Folkert van Heusden
Subject: Re: datamining and chess
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What exactly? > I don't get it. > > > "Folkert van Heusden" <[email protected]> wrote in message > news:[email protected]... >>A few weeks ago I did a little data-mining on the game of chess. >> I analyzed (using some scripting, of course) approx 350000 games by >> grandmasters and rookies. >> The results can be found here: >> http://www.vanheusden.com/misc/datamining_on_chess.html >>
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