Karo-Cann vs. Sicilian

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Date: 15 May 2005 21:10:32
From: phillip
Subject: Karo-Cann vs. Sicilian

I am trying to find a good defense to study. It seems like I always get
killed playing black. I have been using the Karo-Cann but I am not having
much luck. Any help?

Date: 20 May 2005 15:21:34
From: eDog
Subject: Re: Karo-Cann vs. Sicilian

phillip wrote:
> I am trying to find a good defense to study. It seems like I always get
> killed playing black. I have been using the Karo-Cann but I am not having
> much luck. Any help?
>
>

I am a weaker player who almost always plays the Sicilian against e4 but
I am looking to try out the Caro-Kann because it is time to try
something new.

At first I was getting beaten badly with it, but after abadoning the
Dragon for (the more solid) Scheveningen structures my game started to
improve. I now hold my own with it online against similarly rated players.

One book that helped a lot was "Mastering the Sicilian" by Danny Kopec.

The other thing that helps me after games is browsing a database with
move statistics and seeing how my choices stacked up against the Masters.

I have found that when getting my feet wet with any new opening the
"Starting Out" series by Everyman Chess is ideally suited for me.

They books usually include around 80 to 100 games. The games are almost
always available in the Chessbase online database if you want to
assemble PGN collections for training and study. (Pocket Fritz
interfaces very nicely with the online CB database). And most
importantly for me, the discussion has just enough detail for a weaker
player to actually complete the book in a reasonable time and start
using the opening.

Date: 20 May 2005 12:55:42
From: Harold Buck
Subject: Re: Karo-Cann vs. Sicilian

In article <2gnje.11114$Y36.2083@trndny05 >, eDog <[email protected]>
wrote:

>
> The other thing that helps me after games is browsing a database with
> move statistics and seeing how my choices stacked up against the Masters.
>

This is often a bad idea, as has been pointed out here many times. For
example, suppose someone comes up with 17. b5 and he and others win,
say, 19 games with it. Then someone else finally comes up with 17. ....
Ne8!! to show that it's really 17. b5? He mops the floor up with the
other guy and word spreads quickly that 17. b5? is a losing move; no
master ever plays it again.

But you check out your database and see

17. b5 95% win rate for white

See the problem?

--Harold Buck

"I used to rock and roll all night,
and party every day.
Then it was every other day. . . ."
-Homer J. Simpson

Date: 20 May 2005 19:55:50
From: eDog
Subject: Re: Karo-Cann vs. Sicilian

I am aware of the issue of digging up refuted lines, but thank you for
bringing it up.

The statistics in the chessbase database show you: the number of times
the move was played in the database, the avg. elo of the player playing
the move and the elo performance of the move.

You can also filter a database by date if you choose to and that should
reveal lines that disappeared after a certain date.

I rarely play against masters and when I lose to them it is hardly
because my database searches hooked me up with a refuted line!

Besides, refuted lines are often viable at the amateur level and can be
quite a lot of fun.

The colle system is pretty much considered a refuted line and it wins
for me on a daily basis against similarly rated opponents.

(It also loses for me on a daily basis but that is another matter).

>
> This is often a bad idea, as has been pointed out here many times. For
> example, suppose someone comes up with 17. b5 and he and others win,
> say, 19 games with it. Then someone else finally comes up with 17. ....
> Ne8!! to show that it's really 17. b5? He mops the floor up with the
> other guy and word spreads quickly that 17. b5? is a losing move; no
> master ever plays it again.
>

Date: 23 May 2005 15:26:18
From: David Richerby
Subject: Re: Karo-Cann vs. Sicilian

eDog <[email protected] > wrote:
> The colle system is pretty much considered a refuted line and it wins
> for me on a daily basis against similarly rated opponents.

I'm not sure the Colle system is considered ``refuted'', as such. White
just has to turn the handle and an attack appears for him in the centre;
on the other hand, it's an attack that's fairly easy to defend against.

Dave.

--
David Richerby Pickled Laptop Hi-Fi (TM): it's like a
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ music system that you can put on your
lap but it's preserved in vinegar!

Date: 21 May 2005 05:40:42
From: bellatori
Subject: Re: Karo-Cann vs. Sicilian

I play a lot of CC rather than OTB as I live in an area where there isn't
an accessible chess club. OTB you can play poor openings and achieve
rekable success because the opening is unusual and poorly known. I used
to play the Spanish Classical as Black with the f5 line. Most players as
White find this very hard to handle OTB. I played it once in CC and was
crushed by a weaker player who had clearly bothered to research the
opening. Ouch! The argument OTB is to play what you are happy with and to
come to understand the strategies behind the opening rather than the
moves.

Bellatori

Date: 22 May 2005 04:01:48
From: Ray Gordon
Subject: Re: Karo-Cann vs. Sicilian

>I play a lot of CC rather than OTB as I live in an area where there isn't
> an accessible chess club. OTB you can play poor openings and achieve
> rekable success because the opening is unusual and poorly known. I used
> to play the Spanish Classical as Black with the f5 line. Most players as
> White find this very hard to handle OTB. I played it once in CC and was
> crushed by a weaker player who had clearly bothered to research the
> opening. Ouch!

The f5 Lopez is hardly weak, and a choice of many supercomputers.

White gets good play if he takes the f5 pawn and uses the threat of Qh5 to
achieve a lead in development.

--
Ray Gordon, Author
http://www.cybersheet.com/library.html
Four FREE books on how to get laid by beautiful women

http://www.cybersheet.com/chess.html
Free Chess E-book: Train Like A Chess Champion

Don't buy anything from experts who won't debate on a free speech forum.

Date: 26 Aug 2005 14:42:58
From: bellatori
Subject: Re: Karo-Cann vs. Sicilian

If you are talking about the Schliemann then maybe the jury is out still
though I think I hear otherwise... however your comment is misplaced in
the Spanish Classical. f5 is a bad move and, contrary to the published
analysis in BCO and ECO the game Stern - Schneider is definitive and is a
loss for Black.

I have published a large amount of analysis on this opening in Chess Post
which has yet to be refuted.

AMICI SUMUS

Jo

Date: 22 May 2005 21:06:11
From: Ron
Subject: Re: Karo-Cann vs. Sicilian

In article <[email protected] >,
"Ray Gordon" <[email protected] > wrote:

> The f5 Lopez is hardly weak, and a choice of many supercomputers.

This doesn't mean it's a good choice for you, unless you're as
tactically alert as a supercomputer.

Date: 16 May 2005 13:14:03
From: Ray Gordon
Subject: Re: Karo-Cann vs. Sicilian

>I am trying to find a good defense to study. It seems like I always get
> killed playing black. I have been using the Karo-Cann but I am not having
> much luck. Any help?

Your problem isn't with the opening that you are choosing, but with your
focus on variations rather than formations.

A formation-based opening repertoire is one you can use even if you don't
understand the specific moves you've memorized, plus your knowledge of
formations will often give you the key to finding the "book" moves (which
are "book" for a reason).

I have a free e-book on my site that can teach you how to play the opening
like a GM if you want a good reference.

--
Ray Gordon, Author
http://www.cybersheet.com/library.html
Four FREE books on how to get laid by beautiful women

http://www.cybersheet.com/chess.html
Free Chess E-book: Train Like A Chess Champion

Don't buy anything from experts who won't debate on a free speech forum.

Date: 16 May 2005 07:47:25
From: Harold Buck
Subject: Re: Karo-Cann vs. Sicilian

Karo comes in a bottle, not a can.

And if you can figure out a way to play the Caro-Kann against the
Sicilian, more power to you.

--Harold Buck

"I used to rock and roll all night,
and party every day.
Then it was every other day. . . ."
-Homer J. Simpson

Date: 16 May 2005 07:41:16
From: Ron
Subject: Re: Karo-Cann vs. Sicilian

In article <[email protected] >,
"phillip" <[email protected] > wrote:

> I am trying to find a good defense to study. It seems like I always get
> killed playing black. I have been using the Karo-Cann but I am not having
> much luck. Any help?

How strong of a player are you?

Relatively inexperienced players tend to make the mistake of "blaming
the opening" - whereas a more nuanced study of your own games is likely
to reveal that you lost because of a tactical shot or because of a
mistake in positional judgement -- or even a series of the above.

The Caro-Kann is perfectly respectable, and it's in many ways one of the
easier defenses to play as black against 1.e4; I think you're probably
fooling yourself if you think that switching to the sicilian will solve
your problems.

At the casual and lower club levels, I think the Sicilian is usually a
mistake. It simply requires too much specific opening preparation, and
even white's "bad" responses (such as the Smith-Morra) score quite well.
White's game (a lead in development and a space advantage) often plays
exactly into what casual and class players want to do anyway (attack the
king!) whereas black's compensation usually takes the form of structural
advantages which you have to be pretty strong to take advantage of.

Don't look for a magic bullet in the opening.

-Ron

Date: 16 May 2005 13:15:20
From: Ray Gordon
Subject: Re: Karo-Cann vs. Sicilian

>> I am trying to find a good defense to study. It seems like I always get
>> killed playing black. I have been using the Karo-Cann but I am not having
>> much luck. Any help?
>
> How strong of a player are you?
>
> Relatively inexperienced players tend to make the mistake of "blaming
> the opening" - whereas a more nuanced study of your own games is likely
> to reveal that you lost because of a tactical shot or because of a
> mistake in positional judgement -- or even a series of the above.

All of which usually stems from poor play in the opening.

> The Caro-Kann is perfectly respectable, and it's in many ways one of the
> easier defenses to play as black against 1.e4; I think you're probably
> fooling yourself if you think that switching to the sicilian will solve
> your problems.
>
> At the casual and lower club levels, I think the Sicilian is usually a
> mistake. It simply requires too much specific opening preparation, and
> even white's "bad" responses (such as the Smith-Morra) score quite well.

Better for Black to stay ignorant?

> White's game (a lead in development and a space advantage) often plays
> exactly into what casual and class players want to do anyway (attack the
> king!) whereas black's compensation usually takes the form of structural
> advantages which you have to be pretty strong to take advantage of.
>
> Don't look for a magic bullet in the opening.

That said, why not book up as much as possible?

--
Ray Gordon, Author
http://www.cybersheet.com/library.html
Four FREE books on how to get laid by beautiful women

http://www.cybersheet.com/chess.html
Free Chess E-book: Train Like A Chess Champion

Don't buy anything from experts who won't debate on a free speech forum.

Date: 16 May 2005 03:45:44
From: John J.
Subject: Re: Karo-Cann vs. Sicilian

I like the Caro Kan. Once you know it you can score well against almost any
player under Master strength.

My long lost friend Julio Kaplan wrote a nice book on the Caro kan.

Good luck !!!!

John
"phillip" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>I am trying to find a good defense to study. It seems like I always get
> killed playing black. I have been using the Karo-Cann but I am not having
> much luck. Any help?
>
>

Date: 15 May 2005 20:39:30
From:
Subject: Re: Karo-Cann vs. Sicilian

phillip wrote:
> I am trying to find a good defense to study. It seems like I always
get
> killed playing black. I have been using the Karo-Cann but I am not
having
> much luck. Any help?

The Caro-Kann (note the spelling) is a respectable opening. What White
variation is causing problems? What do you play against 1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5
3.Nc3 dxe4 4.Nxe4? I think 4...Bf5 is the easiest line to understand.
You also should study the 3.e5 variation and have a defense against the
Panov-Botvinnik attack, 3.exd5 cxd5 4.c4.

I play the Sicillian, but if you don't study openings, you can be
killed in the Sicillian as fast, probably faster than in other defenses
to 1.e4.

Regards,
IM Vivek Rao

Btw I don't think your post is topical in rec.games.chess.computer , so
I am removing it from follow-ups.