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Main
Date: 15 Dec 2007 00:02:21
From: Sanny
Subject: Very Difficult Games.
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Below are a few Games won By Help Bot at GetClub. The Games were
played with Normal Level. Despite such a hard program Help Bot managed
to win the games.
Now it is very difficult for me to understand why Help Bot win and
GetClub Lost the Matches. For me all moves looked correct only after
few moves I found it lost a pawn/ Knight in exchange.
Tell me the weakness in Games I type Below. And tell me full
explanation of how to avoid those mistakes. Help Bot used to think 2
min/ Move So you too have to study the moves for 4-5 min to find why
Help Bot played that move.
I was thinking now GetClub has improved a lot and will win each game
against Help Bot. But Help Bot has again prooved he is still ster
than GetClub Chess.
Here are THREE Games with time in seconds against each move.
Move(seconds)
-------------------------
FIRST GAME
------------------------
help bot: (Black)
normal: (White)
Game Played at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
View Recorded Game: http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?id=DM13342&game=Chess
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
White -- Black
(normal) -- (help bot)
1) Pe2-e4(84) Pg7-g6(36)
2) Nb1-c3(204) Bf8-g7(32)
3) Bf1-c4(326) Pe7-e6(86)
4) Pd2-d4(326) Ng8-e7(34)
5) Bc1-g5(346) Ph7-h6(110)
6) Bg5-h4(324) Pd7-d5(120)
7) Pe4-d5(296) Pe6-d5(42)
8) Bc4-b5(142) Pc7-c6(24)
9) Bb5-e2(92) Ke8-g8(88)
10) Ng1-f3(250) Rf8-e8(42)
11) Nf3-e5(156) Pc6-c5(192)
12) Be2-b5(326) Pc5-d4(312)
13) Bb5-e8(240) Qd8-e8(18)
14) Qd1-d4(90) Nb8-c6(26)
15) Qd4-d2(176) Ne7-f5(216)
16) Ke1-g1(304) Nc6-e5(24)
17) Qd2-f4(168) Pg6-g5(98)
18) Bh4-g5(214) Ph6-g5(24)
19) Qf4-g5(88) Qe8-e7(384)
20) Qg5-h5(228) Pd5-d4(116)
21) Nc3-e2(80) Ne5-g6(112)
22) Kg1-h1(130) Bc8-e6(106)
23) Rf1-d1(98) Ra8-c8(46)
24) Pc2-c4(156) Rc8-c4(36)
25) Ne2-c1(292) Ng6-f4(162)
26) Qh5-g4(148) Qe7-c7(120)
27) Nc1-d3(98) Nf4-d3(24)
28) Rd1-d3(124) Nf5-e3(34)
29) Qg4-g7(222) Kg8-g7(10)
30) Pf2-e3(328) Rc4-c1(28)
31) Rd3-d1(202) Rc1-a1(30)
32) Rd1-a1(324) Pd4-e3(108)
33) Pa2-a4(134) Qc7-c2(52)
34) Ra1-e1(324) Be6-d5(26)
35) Re1-g1(324) Qc2-f2(6)
36) Pb2-b4(122) Pe3-e2(18)
37) Ph2-h3(172)
-------------------------------
SECOND GAME
_________________
help bot: (Black)
normal: (White)
Game Played at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
View Recorded Game: http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?id=DM13333&game=Chess
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
White -- Black
(normal) -- (help bot)
1) Pd2-d4(4) Ng8-f6(22)
2) Pc2-c4(0) Pe7-e5(10)
3) Pd4-e5(84) Nf6-g4(6)
4) Qd1-d4(322) Pd7-d6(154)
5) Pe5-d6(214) Nb8-c6(200)
6) Qd4-e4(342) Bc8-e6(14)
7) Pf2-f3(330) Ng4-f6(48)
8) Pd6-c7(280) Qd8-c7(32)
9) Qe4-e3(204) Ke8-c8(80)
10) Nb1-d2(140) Nc6-d4(90)
11) Qe3-c3(258) Bf8-b4(56)
12) Qc3-d3(84) Be6-f5(86)
13) Pe2-e4(284) Nf6-e4(112)
14) Pf3-e4(314) Bf5-e4(34)
15) Qd3-e4(200) Rh8-e8(22)
16) Qe4-e8(122) Rd8-e8(10)
17) Ke1-d1(326) Qc7-e5(44)
18) Ng1-f3(322) Nd4-f3(88)
19) Nd2-f3(136) Qe5-e4(24)
20) Bc1-g5(170) Pf7-f6(40)
21) Pa2-a3(242) Pf6-g5(86)
22) Pa3-b4(322) Pg5-g4(34)
23) Pc4-c5(322) Pg4-f3(68)
24) Ra1-a7(322) Re8-d8(258)
25) Kd1-c1(108) Qe4-e1(62)
26) Kc1-c2(300) Qe1-d1(28)
27) Kc2-c3(150) Pf3-g2(10)
28) Ra7-a8(124) Kc8-c7(16)
29) Ra8-d8(162) Qd1-c1(44)
30) Kc3-d3(156) Qg2-h1(Q)(70)
31) Rd8-e8(322) Qh1-f1(70)
32) Kd3-e4(160)
-------------------------
THIRD GAME
_______________
help bot: (Black)
normal: (White)
Game Played at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
View Recorded Game: http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?id=DM13324&game=Chess
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
White -- Black
(normal) -- (help bot)
1) Pe2-e4(0) Pe7-e5(10)
2) Nb1-c3(0) Ng8-f6(4)
3) Pd2-d3(0) Bf8-b4(6)
4) Bc1-d2(338) Ke8-g8(16)
5) Ng1-f3(90) Nb8-c6(40)
6) Nc3-b5(122) Bb4-e7(42)
7) Pc2-c4(348) Pd7-d6(66)
8) Bf1-e2(126) Nf6-e8(144)
9) Bd2-e3(288) Pg7-g6(100)
10) Qd1-a4(138) Pf7-f5(60)
11) Nf3-d2(344) Pf5-f4(78)
12) Be3-a7(164) Nc6-a7(66)
13) Nb5-a7(190) Bc8-d7(28)
14) Qa4-a5(162) Pc7-c6(146)
15) Qa5-a3(218) Qd8-b8(100)
16) Na7-c6(274) Pb7-c6(46)
17) Qa3-c3(136) Pc6-c5(40)
18) Nd2-f3(92) Be7-d8(44)
19) Ke1-g1(218) Bd8-a5(74)
20) Qc3-c2(206) Ne8-g7(72)
21) Kg1-h1(230) Ng7-e6(34)
22) Pg2-g4(164) Pg6-g5(36)
23) Rf1-g1(128) Kg8-g7(24)
24) Be2-d1(138) Kg7-f6(28)
25) Bd1-e2(322) Rf8-g8(40)
26) Ph2-h4(132) Ph7-h6(16)
27) Be2-f1(322) Bd7-c6(52)
28) Bf1-g2(322) Ra8-a7(366)
29) Bg2-h3(334) Qb8-a8(136)
30) Ph4-g5(338) Ph6-g5(14)
31) Nf3-h2(212) Ne6-d4(36)
32) Qc2-d1(278) Rg8-h8(26)
33) Bh3-f1(154) Ra7-h7(38)
34) Bf1-h3(334) Rh7-h3(14)
35) Kh1-g2(188) Rh3-h2(20)
36) Kg2-f1(184) Rh8-h3(118)
37) Ra1-b1(320) Bc6-e4(84)
38) Pd3-e4(146) Qa8-e4(10)
39) Pb2-b4(322) Ba5-b4(82)
40) Rb1-b2(192) Rh3-d3(88)
41) Qd1-b1(130) Bb4-c3(54)
42) Pa2-a3(112) Bc3-b2(22)
43) Qb1-b2(84)
Bye
Sanny
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
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Date: 17 Dec 2007 14:02:21
From: help bot
Subject: Re: Very Difficult Games.
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On Dec 17, 10:05 am, "[email protected]" <[email protected] >
wrote:
> The story of GetClub repeats in a predictable fashion.
>
> "Now GetClub is much stronger and will play hard game and you will
> loose all game"
>
> "Why GetClub is loosing game, please explain so I can improve GetClub"
>
> "Now GetClub is much stronger and will play hard game and you will
> loose all game"
>
> etc. etc. For how long now? Perhaps a year?
True. But try actually playing the program now;
you will see a rekable improvement in strength.
I can still recall when I would go to GetClub and
come away thinking I was Paul Morphy in every
game! All my sacrifices worked, like magic. Now
things are a lot tougher. I think if it weren't for the
slowness of the Java applet, most humans would
now be getting thumped.
A couple of times I have experienced that the
program was nearly indistinguishable from others,
apart from the tiny openings book. But then it
always goes back to sacrificing pieces for pawns,
or even for spite checks; only now the ante has
been upped to two-pawns-and-an-exposed-King;
never mind that all the King might be "exposed"
to is a short series of meaningless spite checks.
Sanny is not trying to compete with commercial
programs, so the fact that his is not upwards of
2700 is no big deal. The toughest part seems to
be getting the rules of chess down pat, and for
this I have no easy solution; those rules are both
complex and messy, and in fact the wording of
certain rules makes it *impossible* for a chess
program to follow them without human intervention.
Many months ago, people were coming here to
brag about their "easy wins", posting the game
scores and laying into Sanny; but when he then
changed the Web site so that games had to be
completed before starting anew, something odd
happened: those people dried up and blew away.
Apparently, they were "cherry-picking" their best
wins, and staying mum about the games they
were losing. Hmm... .
-- help bot
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Date: 17 Dec 2007 13:46:33
From: help bot
Subject: Re: Very Difficult Games.
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On Dec 16, 1:18 am, Sanny <[email protected] > wrote:
> > In the above game the program walked right into a pawn
> > fork with 17. Qf4, so there is no great mystery as to why I
> > won.
>
> But it got 2 pawns for Bishop. And there was no pawn in front of your
> king protecting the King. So I give +1.00 point for King exposed.
Okay, first of all, a Bishop is worth more than three
pawns; and secondly, in order to fully exploit an exposed
King, you need to have plenty of pieces left on the board,
they must be developed, and the attack must come fairly
quickly.
> > Here White commited hari-kiri by neglecting to
> > develop any piece other than the Queen, which
> > got chased around until at last, it was pinned to
> > the White King.
>
> It did that because it Got 2 Center Pawns for 1 pawn getting a benefit
> of 1 Center Pawn. So it got no time for other pieces development.
> Should it not have taken your centeral pawn?
This game was very complicated, like many other
gambits. Taking on e5 is the main line, but your
program surprised me with Q-d4 -- a move I have not
seen played here. Typically, White tries to hold the
pawn with minor pieces (i.e. normal developing moves),
not just the Queen.
> > In this game, White got a piece inextricably trapped
> > in a self-pin by 12. Bxa7. The depth of search needed
> > to "detect" this using brute calculation may be too
> > much for the GetClub program, but it is obvious to
> > any decent human player. In fact, the whole idea of
> > Q-a4 in order to attack such a pawn is wrongheaded;
> > this is the same mistake Bobby Fischer made in his
> > first game against Boris Spassky in 1972; you get in,
> > but you can't ever get back out.
>
> Yes I found it woyuld need 10 depth calculation to find that the
> traped Knight will get killed. But still it was one Knight for 2
> Pawns.
A Knight is worth at least three pawns.
> Only 1 point down. Normal Level did 7 depth Calculation and
> found a Pawn Advantage and Killed your Rook-Pawn. But It was only if
> it had doner 10 depth calculation it would have found that Knight is
> trapped.
Note also that after all this is settled, the program's
Rooks have no open files on which to operate, while
mine can line up on the a and b-files.
> Yesterday two things were corrected So you will now have tough time in
> winning at least against Normal Level. However you can win against the
> Beginner & Easy Level as your game seems to have improved a lot.
Thanks. Some of these problems will plague every
level, because the depth required to ascertain that a
piece will be trapped is simply too much. But the
biggest issue seems to be incorrect piece values,
followed by premature Queen sorties in search of
ill-gotten gains. : >D
-- help bot
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Date: 17 Dec 2007 07:05:51
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Very Difficult Games.
|
The story of GetClub repeats in a predictable fashion.
"Now GetClub is much stronger and will play hard game and you will
loose all game"
"Why GetClub is loosing game, please explain so I can improve GetClub"
"Now GetClub is much stronger and will play hard game and you will
loose all game"
etc. etc. For how long now? Perhaps a year?
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Date: 18 Dec 2007 02:34:15
From:
Subject: Re: Very Difficult Games.
|
On Mon, 17 Dec 2007 07:05:51 -0800 (PST), "[email protected]"
<[email protected] > wrote:
>The story of GetClub repeats in a predictable fashion.
>
>"Now GetClub is much stronger and will play hard game and you will
>loose all game"
>
>"Why GetClub is loosing game, please explain so I can improve GetClub"
>
>"Now GetClub is much stronger and will play hard game and you will
>loose all game"
>
>etc. etc. For how long now? Perhaps a year?
Just do what I do, put him on your twit filter.
J.Lohner
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Date: 15 Dec 2007 22:18:39
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: Very Difficult Games.
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> In the above game the program walked right into a pawn
> fork with 17. Qf4, so there is no great mystery as to why I
> won.
But it got 2 pawns for Bishop. And there was no pawn in front of your
king protecting the King. So I give +1.00 point for King exposed.
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
> Here White commited hari-kiri by neglecting to
> develop any piece other than the Queen, which
> got chased around until at last, it was pinned to
> the White King.
It did that because it Got 2 Center Pawns for 1 pawn getting a benefit
of 1 Center Pawn. So it got no time for other pieces development.
Should it not have taken your centeral pawn?
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
> In this game, White got a piece inextricably trapped
> in a self-pin by 12. Bxa7. The depth of search needed
> to "detect" this using brute calculation may be too
> much for theGetClubprogram, but it is obvious to
> any decent human player. In fact, the whole idea of
> Q-a4 in order to attack such a pawn is wrongheaded;
> this is the same mistake Bobby Fischer made in his
> first game against Boris Spassky in 1972; you get in,
> but you can't ever get back out.
Yes I found it woyuld need 10 depth calculation to find that the
traped Knight will get killed. But still it was one Knight for 2
Pawns. Only 1 point down. Normal Level did 7 depth Calculation and
found a Pawn Advantage and Killed your Rook-Pawn. But It was only if
it had doner 10 depth calculation it would have found that Knight is
trapped.
Yesterday two things were corrected So you will now have tough time in
winning atleast against Normal Level. However you can win against the
Beginner & Easy Level as your game seems to have improved a lot.
Bye
Sanny
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
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Date: 15 Dec 2007 19:55:44
From: help bot
Subject: Re: Very Difficult Games.
|
On Dec 15, 3:02 am, Sanny <[email protected] > wrote:
> Below are a few Games won By Help Bot at GetClub. The Games were
> played with Normal Level. Despite such a hard program Help Bot managed
> to win the games.
>
> Now it is very difficult for me to understand why Help Bot win and
> GetClub Lost the Matches. For me all moves looked correct only after
> few moves I found it lost a pawn/ Knight in exchange.
>
> Tell me the weakness in Games I type Below. And tell me full
> explanation of how to avoid those mistakes. Help Bot used to think 2
> min/ Move So you too have to study the moves for 4-5 min to find why
> Help Bot played that move.
I am not always at my computer when the GetClub program
makes its moves, so you can't just assume my times are my
actual thinking times.
In particular, one Windows "tab" tends to lock up quite often,
and I have no choice but to wait until it unlocks itself before I
can switch to the chess game to consider my reply.
> I was thinking now GetClub has improved a lot and will win each game
> against Help Bot. But Help Bot has again prooved he is still ster
> than GetClub Chess.
>
> Here are THREE Games with time in seconds against each move.
> Move(seconds)
> -------------------------
> FIRST GAME
> ------------------------
> help bot: (Black)
> normal: (White)
> Game Played at:http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
> View Recorded Game:http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?id=DM13342&game=Chess
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> White -- Black
> (normal) -- (help bot)
>
> 1) Pe2-e4(84) Pg7-g6(36)
> 2) Nb1-c3(204) Bf8-g7(32)
> 3) Bf1-c4(326) Pe7-e6(86)
> 4) Pd2-d4(326) Ng8-e7(34)
> 5) Bc1-g5(346) Ph7-h6(110)
> 6) Bg5-h4(324) Pd7-d5(120)
> 7) Pe4-d5(296) Pe6-d5(42)
> 8) Bc4-b5(142) Pc7-c6(24)
> 9) Bb5-e2(92) Ke8-g8(88)
> 10) Ng1-f3(250) Rf8-e8(42)
> 11) Nf3-e5(156) Pc6-c5(192)
> 12) Be2-b5(326) Pc5-d4(312)
> 13) Bb5-e8(240) Qd8-e8(18)
> 14) Qd1-d4(90) Nb8-c6(26)
> 15) Qd4-d2(176) Ne7-f5(216)
> 16) Ke1-g1(304) Nc6-e5(24)
> 17) Qd2-f4(168) Pg6-g5(98)
> 18) Bh4-g5(214) Ph6-g5(24)
> 19) Qf4-g5(88) Qe8-e7(384)
> 20) Qg5-h5(228) Pd5-d4(116)
> 21) Nc3-e2(80) Ne5-g6(112)
> 22) Kg1-h1(130) Bc8-e6(106)
> 23) Rf1-d1(98) Ra8-c8(46)
> 24) Pc2-c4(156) Rc8-c4(36)
> 25) Ne2-c1(292) Ng6-f4(162)
> 26) Qh5-g4(148) Qe7-c7(120)
> 27) Nc1-d3(98) Nf4-d3(24)
> 28) Rd1-d3(124) Nf5-e3(34)
> 29) Qg4-g7(222) Kg8-g7(10)
> 30) Pf2-e3(328) Rc4-c1(28)
> 31) Rd3-d1(202) Rc1-a1(30)
> 32) Rd1-a1(324) Pd4-e3(108)
> 33) Pa2-a4(134) Qc7-c2(52)
> 34) Ra1-e1(324) Be6-d5(26)
> 35) Re1-g1(324) Qc2-f2(6)
> 36) Pb2-b4(122) Pe3-e2(18)
> 37) Ph2-h3(172)
In the above game the program walked right into a pawn
fork with 17. Qf4, so there is no great mystery as to why I
won.
> -------------------------------
> SECOND GAME
> _________________
>
> help bot: (Black)
> normal: (White)
> Game Played at:http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
> View Recorded Game:http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?id=DM13333&game=Chess
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> White -- Black
> (normal) -- (help bot)
>
> 1) Pd2-d4(4) Ng8-f6(22)
> 2) Pc2-c4(0) Pe7-e5(10)
> 3) Pd4-e5(84) Nf6-g4(6)
> 4) Qd1-d4(322) Pd7-d6(154)
> 5) Pe5-d6(214) Nb8-c6(200)
> 6) Qd4-e4(342) Bc8-e6(14)
> 7) Pf2-f3(330) Ng4-f6(48)
> 8) Pd6-c7(280) Qd8-c7(32)
> 9) Qe4-e3(204) Ke8-c8(80)
> 10) Nb1-d2(140) Nc6-d4(90)
> 11) Qe3-c3(258) Bf8-b4(56)
> 12) Qc3-d3(84) Be6-f5(86)
> 13) Pe2-e4(284) Nf6-e4(112)
> 14) Pf3-e4(314) Bf5-e4(34)
> 15) Qd3-e4(200) Rh8-e8(22)
> 16) Qe4-e8(122) Rd8-e8(10)
> 17) Ke1-d1(326) Qc7-e5(44)
> 18) Ng1-f3(322) Nd4-f3(88)
> 19) Nd2-f3(136) Qe5-e4(24)
> 20) Bc1-g5(170) Pf7-f6(40)
> 21) Pa2-a3(242) Pf6-g5(86)
> 22) Pa3-b4(322) Pg5-g4(34)
> 23) Pc4-c5(322) Pg4-f3(68)
> 24) Ra1-a7(322) Re8-d8(258)
> 25) Kd1-c1(108) Qe4-e1(62)
> 26) Kc1-c2(300) Qe1-d1(28)
> 27) Kc2-c3(150) Pf3-g2(10)
> 28) Ra7-a8(124) Kc8-c7(16)
> 29) Ra8-d8(162) Qd1-c1(44)
> 30) Kc3-d3(156) Qg2-h1(Q)(70)
> 31) Rd8-e8(322) Qh1-f1(70)
> 32) Kd3-e4(160)
Here White commited hari-kiri by neglecting to
develop any piece other than the Queen, which
got chased around until at last, it was pinned to
the White King.
> -------------------------
> THIRD GAME
> _______________
>
> help bot: (Black)
> normal: (White)
> Game Played at:http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
> View Recorded Game:http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?id=DM13324&game=Chess
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> White -- Black
> (normal) -- (help bot)
>
> 1) Pe2-e4(0) Pe7-e5(10)
> 2) Nb1-c3(0) Ng8-f6(4)
> 3) Pd2-d3(0) Bf8-b4(6)
> 4) Bc1-d2(338) Ke8-g8(16)
> 5) Ng1-f3(90) Nb8-c6(40)
> 6) Nc3-b5(122) Bb4-e7(42)
> 7) Pc2-c4(348) Pd7-d6(66)
> 8) Bf1-e2(126) Nf6-e8(144)
> 9) Bd2-e3(288) Pg7-g6(100)
> 10) Qd1-a4(138) Pf7-f5(60)
> 11) Nf3-d2(344) Pf5-f4(78)
> 12) Be3-a7(164) Nc6-a7(66)
> 13) Nb5-a7(190) Bc8-d7(28)
> 14) Qa4-a5(162) Pc7-c6(146)
> 15) Qa5-a3(218) Qd8-b8(100)
> 16) Na7-c6(274) Pb7-c6(46)
> 17) Qa3-c3(136) Pc6-c5(40)
> 18) Nd2-f3(92) Be7-d8(44)
> 19) Ke1-g1(218) Bd8-a5(74)
> 20) Qc3-c2(206) Ne8-g7(72)
> 21) Kg1-h1(230) Ng7-e6(34)
> 22) Pg2-g4(164) Pg6-g5(36)
> 23) Rf1-g1(128) Kg8-g7(24)
> 24) Be2-d1(138) Kg7-f6(28)
> 25) Bd1-e2(322) Rf8-g8(40)
> 26) Ph2-h4(132) Ph7-h6(16)
> 27) Be2-f1(322) Bd7-c6(52)
> 28) Bf1-g2(322) Ra8-a7(366)
> 29) Bg2-h3(334) Qb8-a8(136)
> 30) Ph4-g5(338) Ph6-g5(14)
> 31) Nf3-h2(212) Ne6-d4(36)
> 32) Qc2-d1(278) Rg8-h8(26)
> 33) Bh3-f1(154) Ra7-h7(38)
> 34) Bf1-h3(334) Rh7-h3(14)
> 35) Kh1-g2(188) Rh3-h2(20)
> 36) Kg2-f1(184) Rh8-h3(118)
> 37) Ra1-b1(320) Bc6-e4(84)
> 38) Pd3-e4(146) Qa8-e4(10)
> 39) Pb2-b4(322) Ba5-b4(82)
> 40) Rb1-b2(192) Rh3-d3(88)
> 41) Qd1-b1(130) Bb4-c3(54)
> 42) Pa2-a3(112) Bc3-b2(22)
> 43) Qb1-b2(84)
In this game, White got a piece inextricably trapped
in a self-pin by 12. Bxa7. The depth of search needed
to "detect" this using brute calculation may be too
much for the GetClub program, but it is obvious to
any decent human player. In fact, the whole idea of
Q-a4 in order to attack such a pawn is wrongheaded;
this is the same mistake Bobby Fischer made in his
first game against Boris Spassky in 1972; you get in,
but you can't ever get back out.
-- help bot
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