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Main
Date: 08 Jun 2005 10:48:27
From:
Subject: Taimanov B48
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After 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nc6 5. Nc3 Qc7 6. Be3 a6
7. Bd3 Nf6 8. 0-0 Ne5, Experts vs the Sicilian recommends Ponoiov's
move 9. Nf3. The main line is 9.. Nfg4 10. Nxe5 Nxe3 11. Qh5 g6
(11..Nxf1 is thought to be bad for Black) 12. Qf3 Qxe5 13. fxe3 when
best for Black is apparently Ribli's 13.. f6. Now, after 14. Qxf6 Qxf6
15. Rxf6 Bg7, an ending is reached where Black appears to have enough
compensation for the pawn.
But who wants to play this way as Black? I don't want to be in a pawn
down ending where, with best play, I might draw but will never really
have a chance to win. Are there any alternatives for Black? One idea
is 9.. d6. After 10. Nxe5 dxe5, the doubled pawns control a lot of the
center. Another is 9..Bd6 10. Nxe5 Bxe5 11. f4 Bxc3 12. bxc3 Qxc3,
when Black is up a pawn, but still has to survive.
Does anyone have any advice, experience or recommendations in these
lines?
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Date: 16 Jun 2005 13:02:08
From: richard stanz
Subject: Re: Taimanov B48
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Claus-J=FCrgen Heigl wrote:
>
> What's so bad about 9.. Nfg4 10. Nxe5 Nxe3 11. Qh5 Nxf1? This move has a
> bad record, but only after Black made serious errors.
>
> 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 e6 5. Nc3 Qc7 6. Be3
> a6 7. Bd3 Nf6 8. O-O Ne5 9. Nf3 Nfg4 10. Nxe5 Nxe3 11. Qh5
> Nxf1 12. Qxf7+ Kd8 13. Qh5 g6 14. Nxg6 Rg8
>
> Until here it's rather forced.
[snip]
> Also possible is 15. Nxf8 Qxh2+ 16. Qxh2 Nxh2 17. Nxh7 Ng4 18. Be2 d6
> 19. Bxg4 Rxg4. This could be equal.
In this line, what do you thihk of 17. Nxe6+ dxe6 18. Kxh2?
Best,
Richard Stanz
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Date: 09 Jun 2005 06:12:12
From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Claus-J=FCrgen_Heigl?=
Subject: Re: Taimanov B48
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[email protected] wrote:
> After 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nc6 5. Nc3 Qc7 6. Be3 a6
> 7. Bd3 Nf6 8. 0-0 Ne5, Experts vs the Sicilian recommends Ponoiov's
> move 9. Nf3. The main line is 9.. Nfg4 10. Nxe5 Nxe3 11. Qh5 g6
> (11..Nxf1 is thought to be bad for Black) 12. Qf3 Qxe5 13. fxe3 when
> best for Black is apparently Ribli's 13.. f6. Now, after 14. Qxf6 Qxf6
> 15. Rxf6 Bg7, an ending is reached where Black appears to have enough
> compensation for the pawn.
This ending might not be without trouble for Black. After 16. Rf3 White
plans to double in the f-file and invade the 7th rank. If Black opposes
in the f-file the black kingside is vulnerable. For example
16. Rf3 b5 17. Raf1 Rf8 (17...Bb7 18. Rf7) 18. e5! Bb7 (18...Rxf3 19.
Rxf3 Bxe5 20. Rh3) 19. Rh3 Rh8? 20. Rxh7!
> But who wants to play this way as Black? I don't want to be in a pawn
> down ending where, with best play, I might draw but will never really
> have a chance to win. Are there any alternatives for Black? One idea
> is 9.. d6. After 10. Nxe5 dxe5, the doubled pawns control a lot of the
> center.
What about 11. Na4 with the idea Nb6 and a4-a5? If 11...b5 12. Nb6 Rb8
13. Nxc8 Qxc8 14. a4 Bc5 15. Qe2. White will get control of the a-file
and probably a passed pawn on the queenside. I think White has an advantage.
What's so bad about 9.. Nfg4 10. Nxe5 Nxe3 11. Qh5 Nxf1? This move has a
bad record, but only after Black made serious errors.
1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 e6 5. Nc3 Qc7 6. Be3
a6 7. Bd3 Nf6 8. O-O Ne5 9. Nf3 Nfg4 10. Nxe5 Nxe3 11. Qh5
Nxf1 12. Qxf7+ Kd8 13. Qh5 g6 14. Nxg6 Rg8
Until here it's rather forced.
Krivic - Vih, 1980 continued
[Result "1-0"]
15. Ne5!? d6? Now Black gets nothing for his knight. White remains with
two pawns for the exchange and an attack and is better. Black has two
better moves:
a) 15...Nd2 the knight is trapped but the Ne5 is also in trouble. The
threat is 16...Qxe5! 17. Qxe5 Nf3+ and surprise! White has no time for
Rd1. 16. Nf7+ Ke7 17. e5 (17. Rd1? Qf4 -+) 17...Qc6 (Black attacks g2.
Of course not 17...Nc4? 18. Bxc4 Qxc4 19. Nd6 +-.) 18. Ng5 Rg7 19. Qh6
Kd8 (19...Ke8 might be too dangerous. 20. Qf6 Nc4 21. Nce4 d5 22. exd6
Nxd6 23. Be2 and the attack isn't stopped easily.) 20. Qf6+ Kc7 21. Rd1
(Finally! If 21. Nge4 Nxe4 22. Nxe4 Rg8 23. Qf7 Rh8 24. Qf6 =) 21...h6
counterplay in the g-file. 22. h4 Qc5 (protects f8) 23. Na4 Qb4 24. a3
Qxh4 25. Qxf8 Qxg5 26. Qd6+ = This line is rather complicated and should
be analysed some more.
b) 15...Nxh2 16. Qxh7 Qxe5 17. Qxg8 Ke8 18. Be2 b5 19. Qh7 Bc5 20. Rd1
Bd4 21. Qxh2 Bxf2+ 22. Kh1 Bd4 23. Qxe5 Bxe5 with compensation for
Black. White has a pawn more, but Black soon has a lot of pressure on
the e-pawn (Bb7 and b4) and down the c-file.
16. Nf7+ Kd7 17. Bxf1 Kc6 18. Nb5 Qb8 19. Nd4+ Kb6 20. Qf3 Qc7 21. Qe3
Qc5 22. b4 Qxb4 23. Nxe6+ Kc6 24. a3 Qb2 25. Nfd8+ Kd7 26. Rd1 Be7 27.
e5 Rxd8 28. exd6 Bf6 29. Qc5 b5 30. Qd5 1-0
The game Charleshouse - Erdelyi went
15. Qh4+
Also possible is 15. Nxf8 Qxh2+ 16. Qxh2 Nxh2 17. Nxh7 Ng4 18. Be2 d6
19. Bxg4 Rxg4. This could be equal.
15...Ke8 16. Nxf8 Nxh2?
Much better is 16...Qxh2+ 17. Qxh2 Nxh2 18. Nxh7 Nf3+ 19. Kf1 Rg7 20.
Nf6+ Kf7 21. Nh5 (21. Nfd5 Nh2+ 22. Kg1 Nf3+ =) 21...Nh2+ = or
21...Rh7!? 22. Ng3 Ne5 unclear.
17. Be2 +- Rxf8 18. Bh5+ Rf7 19. Bxf7+ Kxf7 20. Qxh7+
Kf6 21. Qh6+ Kf7 22. Qxh2 Qxh2+ 23. Kxh2 b5 24. a3 Bb7
25. Rd1 Bc6 26. f3 a5 27. Ne2 e5 28. Nc3 Ke6 29. Nd5 Rf8
30. c3 d6 31. Kg1 Rg8 32. Ne3 Rb8 33. Nd5 Rg8 34. Kf2 Rh8
35. Ne3 Rh2 36. b4 a4 37. c4 bxc4 38. Nxc4 d5 39. exd5+
Bxd5 40. Ne3 Bb7 41. Rc1 Rh7 42. b5 Rd7 43. Ke2 e4 44. Rc4
exf3+ 45. gxf3 Rh7 46. Rxa4 Rh2+ 47. Kd3 Rb2 48. Ra5 Bxf3
49. Kc3 Rb1 50. a4 Kd6 51. Nc4+ Kc5 52. Nd2 Rg1 53. b6+
Kxb6 54. Rb5+ Ka6 55. Nxf3 Ra1 56. Kb4 Rb1+ 57. Kc5 Rc1+
58. Kd5 Ra1 59. Rb8 Rxa4 60. Nd4 Ra5+ 61. Kc6 Ka7 62. Rf8
Ra6+ 63. Kc7 Rh6 64. Re8 Rh7+ 65. Kc6 Rh6+ 66. Ne6 Rf6
67. Kb5 Rf7 68. Nd4 Rh7 69. Re6 Rh5+ 70. Kc6 Rh1 71. Nb3
Rh7 72. Nc5 Rg7 73. Rh6 Rf7 74. Kb5 Rg7 75. Ra6+ Kb8
76. Rb6+ Ka7 77. Rd6 Rh7 78. Nd7 Kb7 79. Nf6 Rh1 80. Rd7+
Kc8 81. Rf7 Rb1+ 82. Kc6 Rc1+ 83. Kd6 Rd1+ 84. Nd5 Rc1
85. Nb6+ Kb8 86. Nd7+ Ka8 87. Nc5 Rh1 88. Kc6 Rh6+ 89. Kc7
Rh5 90. Nd7 Rh1 91. Rf5 Rc1+ 92. Nc5 Rc2 93. Kb6 Rb2+
94. Kc6 Rh2 95. Rf3 Ra2 96. Kb6 1-0
Claus-Juergen
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Date: 08 Jun 2005 21:43:41
From: Antonio Torrecillas
Subject: Re: Taimanov B48
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En/na [email protected] ha escrit:
> After 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nc6 5. Nc3 Qc7 6. Be3 a6
> 7. Bd3 Nf6 8. 0-0 Ne5, Experts vs the Sicilian recommends Ponoiov's
> move 9. Nf3. The main line is 9.. Nfg4 10. Nxe5 Nxe3 11. Qh5 g6
> (11..Nxf1 is thought to be bad for Black) 12. Qf3 Qxe5 13. fxe3 when
> best for Black is apparently Ribli's 13.. f6. Now, after 14. Qxf6 Qxf6
> 15. Rxf6 Bg7, an ending is reached where Black appears to have enough
> compensation for the pawn.
>
> But who wants to play this way as Black? I don't want to be in a pawn
> down ending where, with best play, I might draw but will never really
> have a chance to win. Are there any alternatives for Black? One idea
> is 9.. d6. After 10. Nxe5 dxe5, the doubled pawns control a lot of the
> center. Another is 9..Bd6 10. Nxe5 Bxe5 11. f4 Bxc3 12. bxc3 Qxc3,
> when Black is up a pawn, but still has to survive.
>
> Does anyone have any advice, experience or recommendations in these
> lines?
My experience is zero in that line and I can not recommend any
improvement for black, but the final position seems plenty of play.
In my database there are 9 games with that line. There are three wins
but it seems that in one game black blundered in a draw position. There
are 6 draws, it is encouraging to see that players like Hector (Gm 2500)
can not win with this line. Sure you will play with weaker players, why
do not consider you can win them?
I know a similar position considered to be a better ending for black:
[Event "Budapest ch-HU"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "1950.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Honfi, Karoly"]
[Black "Szilagyi"]
[Result "*"]
[ECO "B56"]
[PlyCount "26"]
[EventDate "1950.??.??"]
1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 Nc6 6. Be3 Ng4 7. Bb5
Nxe3 8.fxe3 Bd7 9. O-O e6 10. Bxc6 bxc6 11. Qf3 Qf6 12. Qxf6 gxf6
13.Rxf6 Bg7 *
Hope that helps
AT
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