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Main
Date: 16 Aug 2005 06:37:53
From: LifeMaster
Subject: Sicilian - Non 3. d4
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"My name is Bob P.," I said. "I'm an alcoholic....
Oh wait.. sorry wrong topic...
"My name is xxxx, and I never know what to do against non 3.d4
Sicilian's"
(Well not totally true, I'm fine with Smith-Morra)
What are folks favorite lines against
2. c3
and the winged gambit? and other off main ideas?
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You may want to review current theory, Ray. 2. ... d5 is in no way the
best move. As Kopec notes, the move 2. ... Nf6 gives Black control of
d5, often for good. Then a N planted on c4 as well for Black can be
deadly for White.
And I would be interested in how d5 "punishes" 2. c3 after Black has
played c5. This is true, to a certain extent in the double KP openings,
but the Q on d5 is problematic for Black after c5.
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Date: 21 Aug 2005 21:24:23
From: David Richerby
Subject: Re: Sicilian - Non 3. d4
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[email protected] <[email protected] > wrote:
> You may want to review current theory, Ray. 2. ... d5 is in no way the
> best move.
NCO gives four main lines from 1.e4 c5 2.c3 d5, with two leading to
equality and two to unclear positions. (NCO uses `unclear' to mean
roughly equal but complicated.)
Dave.
--
David Richerby Flammable Tongs (TM): it's like a pair
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ of tongs but it burns really easily!
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Date: 19 Aug 2005 22:35:23
From: Ray Gordon
Subject: Re: Sicilian - Non 3. d4
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> You may want to review current theory, Ray. 2. ... d5 is in no way the
> best move. As Kopec notes, the move 2. ... Nf6 gives Black control of
> d5, often for good. Then a N planted on c4 as well for Black can be
> deadly for White.
2...Nf6 leads to 3. e5 and Black can have d5 in that setup.
2...Nf6 3. e5 Nd5 4. c4 is one line I'd love to play as White, for example.
Computer says 2...d5 gives equality. Without the tempo Nc3 to drive away
the queen, the main deterrent against playing this type of move is removed.
I'm not saying there aren't other moves, but 2...d5 cannot be any worse than
any other option.
> And I would be interested in how d5 "punishes" 2. c3 after Black has
> played c5.
It punishes White for taking away Nc3, which is the priy "threat" against
2. d5 (3. cxd5 Qxd5 and now 4. Nc3 is not possible).
>This is true, to a certain extent in the double KP openings,
> but the Q on d5 is problematic for Black after c5.
If you call White giving black a gateway into setting up a oczy Bind
(something even *white* shouldn't be able to do) "problematic," I wish all
my games had those problems!
After 2...Nf6, the computer says White is slightly better after 3. e5, which
appears to be the correct way to "punish" 2...Nf6.
e.g., 2...Nf6 3. e5 Nd5 4. Nf3 with a very solid pawn center (I prefer 4. c4
here myself, but I don't play 2. c3 with White so it won't come into play).
In general, supporting the center with an early c3 is one of the most
underrated motifs in the opening that I have seen, and I use it in other
lines. It may be that the "brute force" approach of d4 or Bb5 (in the king
pawn games) may be inferior to this approach, which is more typical of the
1. d4 or 1. c4 games.
Unless we can bust Fritz when it plays a line, I consider the line playable
now, even the Latvian!
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Date: 21 Aug 2005 21:28:25
From: David Richerby
Subject: Re: Sicilian - Non 3. d4
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Ray Gordon <[email protected] > wrote:
> 2...Nf6 3. e5 Nd5 4. c4 is one line I'd love to play as White, for
> example.
Hmm, 4.c4 isn't even considered in NCO or Rogozenko's book on anti-
Sicilians. I suppose they don't like the wasted tempo and the White
e-pawn looks somewhat over-extended.
Dave.
--
David Richerby Lead Car (TM): it's like a
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ high-performance luxury car that
weighs a ton!
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My favorite is 2...Nf6 but you have to know a few things about that.
some lines:
3.e5 Nd5
4.Lc4 Nb6 5.Nb3 c4
4.d4 cd: 5.Nf3 d6 6.Bc4 Nb6
5.cd d6 6.Bc4 Nb6 7.Nb5 de:
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LifeMaster wrote:
> "My name is Bob P.," I said. "I'm an alcoholic....
>
> Oh wait.. sorry wrong topic...
>
> "My name is xxxx, and I never know what to do against non 3.d4
> Sicilian's"
>
> (Well not totally true, I'm fine with Smith-Morra)
>
> What are folks favorite lines against
>
> 2. c3
>
> and the winged gambit? and other off main ideas?
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In my personal opinion, as someone who has played 2. c3 since 1975 (!),
only 2. ... Nf6 offers Black the counterplay he needs if he wants to
win - barring poor play by white, of course. That positional knight
play on the Q-side (eg., getting a N to c4 to hit the dark squares,
perhaps in combination with a trade on c3 and a R on c8), to my mind,
forces white to engage in a K-side attack that may fall flat. There are
some other double-edged lines in the Nf6 variations where if white
doesn't press his advantage properly, his game falls apart.
I also sometimes play variations on the Kopec variation (3. Bd3 w/
later c3 or 2. Nf3 d6 3. c3!? Nf6 4. h3), but it usually only works
against players who don't understand and play the Sicilian rather
mechanically. Really, its best as a speed chess weapon.
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Date: 19 Aug 2005 18:22:04
From: Ray Gordon
Subject: Re: Sicilian - Non 3. d4
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> In my personal opinion, as someone who has played 2. c3 since 1975 (!),
> only 2. ... Nf6 offers Black the counterplay he needs if he wants to
> win -
2...d5 is theoretically best in that it "punishes" the move 2. c3.
If 2...d5 isn't equality, then nothing else is.
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