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Main
Date: 07 Apr 2007 07:07:45
From: cman
Subject: Sicilian Dragon: Yugoslav Attack; 9. 0-0-0
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Dear Friends,
I have some questions regarding the 9th move in the Yugoslav Attack
for White and Black. Here are the opening moves for your reference:
1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3
0-0 8. Qd2 Nc6 9. 0-0-0 d5
My questions are as follows:
1) What is the reasoning behind 8. Qd2 for White? Is it to prepare an
attack down h6, or does it also help strengthen the center, if yes
(for the centre), how exactly?
2) The two best moves for White for move 9 are genereally said to be
9. 0-0-0 and 9. Bc4, both playing some role in preventing Black from
playing d5. Can you explain how each move affects the centre, and how
they prevent Black from making a pawn break with d4-d5, and also, how
does each move affect overall development? For example: 9. Bc4, which
is usually followed by Bb3, is said to be slow allowing Black to be
Bd7, Rc8 and eventually Ne5-c4. But I am confused about how both
9.0-0-0 and 9. Bc4 affect the centre. Please explain.
3) Why is d5 such a strong move for Black esp. in response to 9.
0-0-0?
4) For move 8..Nc6 - why is it usually rated as the best move in
response to 8. Qd2, again, what is the reasoning?
Sincerely,
Mr. Balu
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Date: 09 Apr 2007 11:19:38
From: Antonio Torrecillas
Subject: Re: Sicilian Dragon: Yugoslav Attack; 9. 0-0-0
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En/na cman ha escrit:
> Dear Friends,
>
> I have some questions regarding the 9th move in the Yugoslav Attack
> for White and Black. Here are the opening moves for your reference:
>
> 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3
> 0-0 8. Qd2 Nc6 9. 0-0-0 d5
>
> My questions are as follows:
Well I have tried to give some indications to understand that line.
If 9.0-0-0 d5 is good for black, white must try to avoid that central
reaction.
9.Bc4 is the move most played. White spend some tempo avoiding this
central reaction. Black can use those tempo in creating queen wing
conunterchances. Practice gives white some edge.
There are another moves which difficult ...d5 reraction:
- an interesting one is 9.g4
Antonio
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Date: 09 Apr 2007 10:17:16
From: Antonio Torrecillas
Subject: Re: Sicilian Dragon: Yugoslav Attack; 9. 0-0-0
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En/na cman ha escrit:
> 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3
> 0-0 8. Qd2 Nc6 9. 0-0-0 d5
>
> 3) Why is d5 such a strong move for Black esp. in response to 9.
> 0-0-0?
I have answered that: center reaction to a flank attack.
There are many examples where center reaction is the best way to play
versus a flank attack. An open center difficult the task of make an
flank attack.
> 4) For move 8..Nc6 - why is it usually rated as the best move in
> response to 8. Qd2, again, what is the reasoning?
Normal development is a good reason.
That show that move to be better than Nd7, Bd7 or a6.
But what about 8...d5?
The problem with 8...d5?! (bad or dubious move) is the center can be
closed with 9.e5 and no center reaction follow for black.
After 8...Nc6 9.0-0-0 d5:
- 10.e5 is not posible
- 10.Nxc6 bxc6 11.e5 Nd7 12.f4 allow a black center reaction with e6, c5
and black has also the b line to attack.
Antonio
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Date: 09 Apr 2007 10:06:50
From: Antonio Torrecillas
Subject: Re: Sicilian Dragon: Yugoslav Attack; 9. 0-0-0
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En/na cman ha escrit:
> 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3
> 0-0 8. Qd2 Nc6 9. 0-0-0 d5
>
> 2) The two best moves for White for move 9 are genereally said to be
> 9. 0-0-0 and 9. Bc4, both playing some role in preventing Black from
> playing d5. Can you explain how each move affects the centre, and how
> they prevent Black from making a pawn break with d4-d5, and also, how
> does each move affect overall development? For example: 9. Bc4, which
> is usually followed by Bb3, is said to be slow allowing Black to be
> Bd7, Rc8 and eventually Ne5-c4. But I am confused about how both
> 9.0-0-0 and 9. Bc4 affect the centre. Please explain.
>
> 3) Why is d5 such a strong move for Black esp. in response to 9.
> 0-0-0?
Once we know main white plan (Qd2, 0-0-0. h4-h5-hxg6, Bh6, ...) black
must react to that plan.
After 9.0-0-0 many moves are posible but an slow development can help
white plans.
There are TWO main aproaches to react to a king wing attack:
- A Queen wing attack.
9...Nxd4 10.Bxd4 Be6 has been played in many games and is one of best
plans for black. The idea is to obtain counterchances in c line with
Qc7, Rfc8, Qa5 and some Rxc3. That line has been exhaustively analyzed
and practice show white has a litle edge here.
- A center counterattack.
9...d5 is the move most played (but only after many years of practice)
One idea is that black obtain many lines for an attack after 10.exd5
Nxd5 11.Nxc6 bxc6 12.Nxd5 cxd5 13.Qxd5.
Of course white can play that position aiming for the whole point but
black has obtained good result here in practice. A cause of that good
result for black White has tried another setups:
- 12.Bd4 e5 13.Bc5
- 10.Qe1
Black seems to have beter chances here than after the 9...Nxd4 option.
Antonio
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Date: 07 Apr 2007 11:33:14
From: cman
Subject: Re: Sicilian Dragon: Yugoslav Attack; 9. 0-0-0
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OK - you answered most of my questions. Much thanks! What I am looking
for is the best response to 9. 0-0-0 from White. The Fritz 10 opening
book (the most advanced computer program in the world!) says 9...d5
is the most common response, and rates 9...Nxd4 as a bad move. Chris
Ward's book on the Dragon has 9...Nxd4 as a common move, listed among
the games.
For 9..d5, the following line suggests White might be better off
after: 10. exd5 Nxd5 11. Nxc6 bxc6 12. Bd4 e5 - it has been suggested
that this leaves Black in a dubious position as e5 is a weak move esp.
since it blocks the Dragon bishop. So coming to my initial question,
what would be the best response to 9. 0-0-0? The best response for 9.
Bc4 generally seems to be Bd7, followed by Rc8 and Ne5-c4. The
analysis for Black's 9th move is a little contradictory to me.
Sincerely,
Mr. Balu
On Apr 7, 11:02 pm, Ron <[email protected] > wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
>
> "cman" <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Dear Friends,
>
> > I have some questions regarding the 9th move in the Yugoslav Attack
> > for White and Black. Here are the opening moves for your reference:
>
> > 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3
> > 0-0 8. Qd2 Nc6 9. 0-0-0 d5
>
> > My questions are as follows:
>
> > 1) What is the reasoning behind 8. Qd2 for White? Is it to prepare an
> > attack down h6, or does it also help strengthen the center, if yes
> > (for the centre), how exactly?
>
> On d2, the queen does many things:
>
> It supports d4 and c3, which are common target squares for black. It
> supports a bishop excursion to h6, swapping off the "dragon" bishop as a
> prelude to white's kingside attack.
>
> > 2) The two best moves for White for move 9 are genereally said to be
> > 9. 0-0-0 and 9. Bc4, both playing some role in preventing Black from
> > playing d5. Can you explain how each move affects the centre, and how
> > they prevent Black from making a pawn break with d4-d5, and also, how
> > does each move affect overall development? For example: 9. Bc4, which
> > is usually followed by Bb3, is said to be slow allowing Black to be
> > Bd7, Rc8 and eventually Ne5-c4. But I am confused about how both
> > 9.0-0-0 and 9. Bc4 affect the centre. Please explain.
>
> There's a third reasonable try for white here, which is 9.g4. This also
> prevents d5 because of the thread of 9. ... d5?! 10.g5! driving the
> knight away, allowing white to play Nxd5.
>
> The key point of these moves is that they're supposed to prevent 9. ..
> d5. It turns out that 0-0-0 may not do this (more on that in a moment).
>
> But 9. Bc4 d5? just costs black a pawn. (Well, not "just" - there's
> nosuch thing as "just" winning a pawn in the dragon).
>
> > 3) Why is d5 such a strong move for Black esp. in response to 9.
> > 0-0-0?
>
> There no simple way to explain why d5 is such an important move for
> black. The point is that it opens the central files, which will be
> dominated by black's heavy pieces. This is a theme which recurs in many
> variations of the sicilian, not just the yugoslav attack and, in fact,
> not just the dragon. One of the best illustrations of this point is a
> non-Yugoslav dragon, is Rauzer-Botvinnik, USSR CHampsionship,
> Lenningrad, 1933.
>
> You simply have to be familiar with that game if you want to play the
> dragon.
>
> The point is that ...d5! is one of black's priy thematic breaks, and
> you'll see it recur in thousands of dragon games, usually giving black
> equality ... or better.
>
> In the yugoslav, in response to a move like 9.h4?, d5! completely turns
> the tables. It breaks open the center and guts white's attack ... but
> not blacks. (Not that, without a pawn on e4, the f3 pawn is a weakness.
> However, should black wait for ... dxe4 and follow up with fxe4, he's
> allmost certainly fall victim to a tactic based on Rxc3 and Nxe4.)
>
> Now, the problem is that 0-0-0 may not actually stop d5. This is become
> white's development (particularly the opposition of his rook with the
> black queen) gives him some additional options. d5 turns into an
> interesting gambit, the final evaluation of which is beyond the scope of
> this post.
>
> But declining that gambit (eg with 10.Qe1) may well be fine for white.
> (heck, accepting it might be ok, although I wouldn't recommend it). But
> ...d5 may not be best for black after 0-0-0. That's fine. Black has
> other reasonable options.
>
> > 4) For move 8..Nc6 - why is it usually rated as the best move in
> > response to 8. Qd2, again, what is the reasoning?
>
> The N has to get into the game somehow. Your choices are d7, c6, and a6.
>
> On a6, the N interferes with ...a6, which is sometimes a valuable move.
> It also doesn't do anything to control the center. If it ever does
> threaten anything useful, it's easy for black to swap off with Bxa6
> (although white will very rarely do this, because the open-b file is
> extremely dangerous.)
>
> On d7, it interferes with the development on the bishop. Although the
> knight will sometimes go here, in doing so it usually transposes (after
> moving to e5) to the main lines. However, this is a more conservative
> square for the knight. Black needs to complete his development, and it's
> really too early to play the bishop e6. (8. ... Be6 9.Nxe6 fxe6 10.Bc4 -
> although I have to emphasize that there are lines with the Nxe6 capture
> which are fine for black).
>
> That leaves c6. On this square, the knight pressures d4, sometimes
> opening up tactics based on Nxe4 (uncovering the action of the dragon
> bishop). Should black try to exchange it by Nxc6 (which you'll see less
> xperienced played do) bxc6 gives black the powerful b-file and takes
> away the d5 square from white.
>
>
>
> > Sincerely,
> > Mr. Balu- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
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Date: 07 Apr 2007 19:47:42
From: Ron
Subject: Re: Sicilian Dragon: Yugoslav Attack; 9. 0-0-0
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In article <[email protected] >,
"cman" <[email protected] > wrote:
> OK - you answered most of my questions. Much thanks! What I am looking
> for is the best response to 9. 0-0-0 from White. The Fritz 10 opening
> book (the most advanced computer program in the world!) says 9...d5
> is the most common response, and rates 9...Nxd4 as a bad move. Chris
> Ward's book on the Dragon has 9...Nxd4 as a common move, listed among
> the games.
Well, Fritz might be the most advanced chess program in the world (or it
may not be) but it's opening book is just, well, an opening book.
The fact that something is the most common response does not mean that
it's the best.
I would be hesitant to trust a computer's evaluation of a move like 9.
0-0-0 Nxd4. Honestly, this is why computers have opening books: because
they don't play the opening particularly well. The position after Nxd4
10.Bxd4 Be6 is perfectly reasonable for black, and a lot of fun to play.
> For 9..d5, the following line suggests White might be better off
> after: 10. exd5 Nxd5 11. Nxc6 bxc6 12. Bd4 e5 - it has been suggested
> that this leaves Black in a dubious position as e5 is a weak move esp.
> since it blocks the Dragon bishop.
I dunno. White's not going to be able to blockade the pawn on e5, so I
wouldn't worry about it.
Intuitively (and I haven't done a lot of hard analysis to back this up)
the exchange sacrifice after 12. ... e5 13.Bc5 Be6! looks very tempting.
The open b-file and an unopposed dragon bishop looks very dangerous. In
fact, without looking anything up, I strongly suspect white's right move
here is to decline the sacrifice with 14.Ne4, although I don't play the
dragon these days and it's possible there's a known theoretical line
accepting the sacrifice which is good for white.
> So coming to my initial question,
> what would be the best response to 9. 0-0-0? The best response for 9.
> Bc4 generally seems to be Bd7, followed by Rc8 and Ne5-c4. The
> analysis for Black's 9th move is a little contradictory to me.
Back when I played the dragon, I mostly played 9. ... Nxd4 with 10.Be6.
Unless there's been some major theoretical discovery here, this line is
fine for black.
Interestingly enough, however, it appears that it's still possible to
play Bd7. The idea is not to maneuver the kngiht to c4 (obviously,
Ne5-c4, allowing Bf1xc4, would simply gift white a couple of tempos over
the 9.Bc4 lines) but rather it takes advantage of two things:
First, without a B on b3, white's king looks a lot less safe after the
typical Rxc3 sacrifice. Secondly, on e5, the knight is available to
partake in a lot of sacrifices involving Nxf3 followed by Nxe4 (usually
after an exchange sac on c3).
I don't understand what you think the contradiction is.
Which of Ward's books are you using? I generally think his coverage of
the 9.0-0-0 stuff is fantastic. His coverage of the 9.Bc4 stuff, on the
other hand, I'm not so sure about. A big part of the reason I gave up on
the dragon was that, playing online (where everybody seems mysteriously
well booked-up) I kept finding myself in critical positions against
9.Bc4 which I didn't think he covered quite well enough, and I'm not
willing to make studying the dragon my full-time occupation.
-Ron
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Date: 07 Apr 2007 18:02:21
From: Ron
Subject: Re: Sicilian Dragon: Yugoslav Attack; 9. 0-0-0
|
In article <[email protected] >,
"cman" <[email protected] > wrote:
> Dear Friends,
>
> I have some questions regarding the 9th move in the Yugoslav Attack
> for White and Black. Here are the opening moves for your reference:
>
> 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3
> 0-0 8. Qd2 Nc6 9. 0-0-0 d5
>
> My questions are as follows:
>
> 1) What is the reasoning behind 8. Qd2 for White? Is it to prepare an
> attack down h6, or does it also help strengthen the center, if yes
> (for the centre), how exactly?
On d2, the queen does many things:
It supports d4 and c3, which are common target squares for black. It
supports a bishop excursion to h6, swapping off the "dragon" bishop as a
prelude to white's kingside attack.
> 2) The two best moves for White for move 9 are genereally said to be
> 9. 0-0-0 and 9. Bc4, both playing some role in preventing Black from
> playing d5. Can you explain how each move affects the centre, and how
> they prevent Black from making a pawn break with d4-d5, and also, how
> does each move affect overall development? For example: 9. Bc4, which
> is usually followed by Bb3, is said to be slow allowing Black to be
> Bd7, Rc8 and eventually Ne5-c4. But I am confused about how both
> 9.0-0-0 and 9. Bc4 affect the centre. Please explain.
There's a third reasonable try for white here, which is 9.g4. This also
prevents d5 because of the thread of 9. ... d5?! 10.g5! driving the
knight away, allowing white to play Nxd5.
The key point of these moves is that they're supposed to prevent 9. ..
d5. It turns out that 0-0-0 may not do this (more on that in a moment).
But 9. Bc4 d5? just costs black a pawn. (Well, not "just" - there's
nosuch thing as "just" winning a pawn in the dragon).
> 3) Why is d5 such a strong move for Black esp. in response to 9.
> 0-0-0?
There no simple way to explain why d5 is such an important move for
black. The point is that it opens the central files, which will be
dominated by black's heavy pieces. This is a theme which recurs in many
variations of the sicilian, not just the yugoslav attack and, in fact,
not just the dragon. One of the best illustrations of this point is a
non-Yugoslav dragon, is Rauzer-Botvinnik, USSR CHampsionship,
Lenningrad, 1933.
You simply have to be familiar with that game if you want to play the
dragon.
The point is that ...d5! is one of black's priy thematic breaks, and
you'll see it recur in thousands of dragon games, usually giving black
equality ... or better.
In the yugoslav, in response to a move like 9.h4?, d5! completely turns
the tables. It breaks open the center and guts white's attack ... but
not blacks. (Not that, without a pawn on e4, the f3 pawn is a weakness.
However, should black wait for ... dxe4 and follow up with fxe4, he's
allmost certainly fall victim to a tactic based on Rxc3 and Nxe4.)
Now, the problem is that 0-0-0 may not actually stop d5. This is become
white's development (particularly the opposition of his rook with the
black queen) gives him some additional options. d5 turns into an
interesting gambit, the final evaluation of which is beyond the scope of
this post.
But declining that gambit (eg with 10.Qe1) may well be fine for white.
(heck, accepting it might be ok, although I wouldn't recommend it). But
...d5 may not be best for black after 0-0-0. That's fine. Black has
other reasonable options.
> 4) For move 8..Nc6 - why is it usually rated as the best move in
> response to 8. Qd2, again, what is the reasoning?
The N has to get into the game somehow. Your choices are d7, c6, and a6.
On a6, the N interferes with ...a6, which is sometimes a valuable move.
It also doesn't do anything to control the center. If it ever does
threaten anything useful, it's easy for black to swap off with Bxa6
(although white will very rarely do this, because the open-b file is
extremely dangerous.)
On d7, it interferes with the development on the bishop. Although the
knight will sometimes go here, in doing so it usually transposes (after
moving to e5) to the main lines. However, this is a more conservative
square for the knight. Black needs to complete his development, and it's
really too early to play the bishop e6. (8. ... Be6 9.Nxe6 fxe6 10.Bc4 -
although I have to emphasize that there are lines with the Nxe6 capture
which are fine for black).
That leaves c6. On this square, the knight pressures d4, sometimes
opening up tactics based on Nxe4 (uncovering the action of the dragon
bishop). Should black try to exchange it by Nxc6 (which you'll see less
xperienced played do) bxc6 gives black the powerful b-file and takes
away the d5 square from white.
> Sincerely,
> Mr. Balu
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Date: 09 Apr 2007 11:44:42
From: David Richerby
Subject: Re: Sicilian Dragon: Yugoslav Attack; 9. 0-0-0
|
Ron <[email protected] > wrote:
> "cman" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3
>> 0-0 8. Qd2 Nc6 9. 0-0-0 d5
>>
>> 1) What is the reasoning behind 8. Qd2 for White?
>
> On d2, the queen does many things:
>
> It supports d4 and c3, which are common target squares for black. It
> supports a bishop excursion to h6, swapping off the "dragon" bishop
> as a prelude to white's kingside attack.
Also, White wants to castle queenside as a prelude to his kingside
attack. The queen has to go somewhere to allow this and, of the
options, Qe2 and Qd3 block in the bishop and don't give the queen
anywhere to go. That only really leaves d2.
Dave.
--
David Richerby Fluorescent Bulb (TM): it's like a
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ light bulb but it'll hurt your eyes!
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Date: 09 Apr 2007 09:54:02
From: Antonio Torrecillas
Subject: Re: Sicilian Dragon: Yugoslav Attack; 9. 0-0-0
|
En/na Ron ha escrit:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> "cman" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Dear Friends,
>>
>>I have some questions regarding the 9th move in the Yugoslav Attack
>>for White and Black. Here are the opening moves for your reference:
>>
>>1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3
>>0-0 8. Qd2 Nc6 9. 0-0-0 d5
>>
>>My questions are as follows:
>>
>>1) What is the reasoning behind 8. Qd2 for White? Is it to prepare an
>>attack down h6, or does it also help strengthen the center, if yes
>>(for the centre), how exactly?
>
> On d2, the queen does many things:
>
> It supports d4 and c3, which are common target squares for black. It
> supports a bishop excursion to h6, swapping off the "dragon" bishop as a
> prelude to white's kingside attack.
The plan is 8.Qd2, 0-0-0, h4, g4, h5, Bh6 followed by Bxg7, hxg6, Qh6
and white obtain a powerful attack. After that white can continue with
g5 or Nd5 to exchange the Nf6.
As you can see the main ideas are:
- To open the h line.
- To exchange the Bg7 defender.
- To exchange the Nf6 defender.
This setup is a typical one to attack a fiancheto and can be seen in
King Indian Samisch, Pirc 150 attack, ...
Antonio
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Date: 09 Apr 2007 04:46:56
From: Ray Gordon, creator of the \pivot\
Subject: Re: Sicilian Dragon: Yugoslav Attack; 9. 0-0-0
|
>> On d2, the queen does many things:
>>
>> It supports d4 and c3, which are common target squares for black. It
>> supports a bishop excursion to h6, swapping off the "dragon" bishop as a
>> prelude to white's kingside attack.
>
> The plan is 8.Qd2, 0-0-0, h4, g4, h5, Bh6 followed by Bxg7, hxg6, Qh6 and
> white obtain a powerful attack. After that white can continue with g5 or
> Nd5 to exchange the Nf6.
>
> As you can see the main ideas are:
> - To open the h line.
> - To exchange the Bg7 defender.
> - To exchange the Nf6 defender.
>
> This setup is a typical one to attack a fiancheto and can be seen in King
> Indian Samisch, Pirc 150 attack, ...
This is also why one should develop an entire repertoire rather than worry
about specific variations. I use a formation-based approach where several
openings can lead to the same place. This is one example of how this can be
done.
If you can cover several lines with one formation, you can often make your
study more efficient, and make it nearly impossible to be surprised in the
opening.
You're on your own once you leave the books, of course.
--
Ray Gordon, Author
Price And Probability (The Value Handicapper's Bible)
http://www.cybersheet.com/horsepix.html
Would someone PLEASE become Ashlee Schull's new #1 fan? She deserves
better.
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Date: 09 Apr 2007 11:27:04
From: Antonio Torrecillas
Subject: Re: Sicilian Dragon: Yugoslav Attack; 9. 0-0-0
|
En/na Ray Gordon ha escrit:
>>The plan is 8.Qd2, 0-0-0, h4, g4, h5, Bh6 followed by Bxg7, hxg6, Qh6 and
>>white obtain a powerful attack. After that white can continue with g5 or
>>Nd5 to exchange the Nf6.
>>
>>As you can see the main ideas are:
>>- To open the h line.
>>- To exchange the Bg7 defender.
>>- To exchange the Nf6 defender.
>>
>>This setup is a typical one to attack a fiancheto and can be seen in King
>>Indian Samisch, Pirc 150 attack, ...
>
> This is also why one should develop an entire repertoire rather than worry
> about specific variations. I use a formation-based approach where several
> openings can lead to the same place. This is one example of how this can be
> done.
>
> If you can cover several lines with one formation, you can often make your
> study more efficient, and make it nearly impossible to be surprised in the
> opening.
>
> You're on your own once you leave the books, of course.
No Ray,
One should study middlegame themes and tactical motivs rather than
develop an entire repertoire, Many books about middlegame can help us to
understand those general themes (like flank attacks versus central
reaction).
The ideas about preparation you have presented here are in the wrong
direction (IMHO). I'ts imposible to build a repertoire move a move
without that general knowledge. A better approach is to study general
middlegame themes and tactics and play openings guided by general ideas.
Antonio
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Date: 09 Apr 2007 02:24:19
From: Ron
Subject: Re: Sicilian Dragon: Yugoslav Attack; 9. 0-0-0
|
In article <[email protected] >,
"Ray Gordon, creator of the \"pivot\"" <[email protected] > wrote:
> This is also why one should develop an entire repertoire rather than worry
> about specific variations. I use a formation-based approach where several
> openings can lead to the same place. This is one example of how this can be
> done.
>
> If you can cover several lines with one formation, you can often make your
> study more efficient, and make it nearly impossible to be surprised in the
> opening.
This sort of thinking leads to quick death in the open sicilian,
particularly in the dragon, and particularly in the yugoslav.
Move orders matter in the opening.
Well, at least, they matter if you're playing against good opponents and
at slow enough time controls where a perceptive opponent can identify
and exploit subtle errors.
Although I admit it's probably good enough for 1-minute chess.
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Date: 08 Apr 2007 04:07:48
From: Ray Gordon, creator of the \pivot\
Subject: Re: Sicilian Dragon: Yugoslav Attack; 9. 0-0-0
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> In the yugoslav, in response to a move like 9.h4?, d5! completely turns
> the tables. It breaks open the center and guts white's attack ... but
> not blacks.
I've done extensive study of 9. h4 and would hardly call it anything less
than best in this position: i.e., 9...d5 10. O-O-O! dxe4 11. h5 Nxh5 12. g4,
and even the computers will have difficulty assessing this position.
9. h4 will likely be the main line one day, as it's the quickest and most
logical approach: direct attack on the Black kingside, and damned the
material.
--
Ray Gordon, Author
Price And Probability (The Value Handicapper's Bible)
http://www.cybersheet.com/horsepix.html
Would someone PLEASE become Ashlee Schull's new #1 fan? She deserves
better.
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Date: 08 Apr 2007 16:54:06
From: Ron
Subject: Re: Sicilian Dragon: Yugoslav Attack; 9. 0-0-0
|
In article <[email protected] >,
"Ray Gordon, creator of the \"pivot\"" <[email protected] > wrote:
> I've done extensive study of 9. h4 and would hardly call it anything less
> than best in this position: i.e., 9...d5 10. O-O-O! dxe4 11. h5 Nxh5 12. g4,
> and even the computers will have difficulty assessing this position.
>
> 9. h4 will likely be the main line one day, as it's the quickest and most
> logical approach: direct attack on the Black kingside, and damned the
> material.
No true dragon player is scared of an h-pawn run. Nevertheless, I'm a
little surprised you're offering this assessment because you've
transposed here into a known line, (9. 0-0-0 d5 10.h4?!).
In any event, 9.h5?! d5! 10.0-0-0 dxe4 11.h5 Nxd4!
then 12.Bxd4 e5 13.Bxe5 Qxd2+ 14.Rxd2 exf3 and white's attack down the
h-file is history. Ward further gives: 15.hg hg 16.Bc4+ Kh8 17.fg, which
he evaluates as better for black. (I agree - because of the outside
passed pawn, a structural asset which isn't going away - although white
has a slight development advantage which my computer seems to like).
Alternatively, 12.h6 Bh8 13.Bxd4 e5! 14.Bxe5 (Bc5 Bg4! - Ward - is a
fairly typical exchange sac which should be fine for black) Qxd2
(bye-bye, kingside attack) 15.Rxd2 fg 16.Rxg2 Be6
And again, we have an endgame that looks favorable to black, because of
the protected passed pawns.
-Ron
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Date: 08 Apr 2007 15:34:29
From: Ray Gordon, creator of the \pivot\
Subject: Re: Sicilian Dragon: Yugoslav Attack; 9. 0-0-0
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>> I've done extensive study of 9. h4 and would hardly call it anything less
>> than best in this position: i.e., 9...d5 10. O-O-O! dxe4 11. h5 Nxh5 12.
>> g4,
>> and even the computers will have difficulty assessing this position.
>>
>> 9. h4 will likely be the main line one day, as it's the quickest and most
>> logical approach: direct attack on the Black kingside, and damned the
>> material.
>
> No true dragon player is scared of an h-pawn run.
Fortunately, White has more to rely on than fear by Black.
>Nevertheless, I'm a
> little surprised you're offering this assessment because you've
> transposed here into a known line, (9. 0-0-0 d5 10.h4?!).
>
> In any event, 9.h5?! d5! 10.0-0-0 dxe4 11.h5 Nxd4!
>
> then 12.Bxd4 e5 13.Bxe5
My analysis shows a different move:
13. Bc5 Qxd2+ 14. Rxd2 Bh6 15. Bxf8 Bxd2+ 16. Kxd2 Kxf8 17. hxg6 hxg6 18.
Nxe4 Nxe4+ 19. fxe4 (+0.09)., and may the better endgame player win.
>Qxd2+ 14.Rxd2 exf3 and white's attack down the
> h-file is history. Ward further gives: 15.hg hg 16.Bc4+ Kh8 17.fg, which
> he evaluates as better for black. (I agree - because of the outside
> passed pawn, a structural asset which isn't going away - although white
> has a slight development advantage which my computer seems to like).
>
> Alternatively, 12.h6 Bh8 13.Bxd4 e5! 14.Bxe5 (Bc5 Bg4! - Ward - is a
> fairly typical exchange sac which should be fine for black)
14. Bc5 Bg4! 15. Bxf8 Qxd2 16. Rxd2 exf3 17. Bc5 (+3.78). Does Ward know
something my computer does not?
>14...Qxd2
> (bye-bye, kingside attack) 15.Rxd2 fg 16.Rxg2 Be6
That's great if White helps out Black by not playing 14. Bc5.
> And again, we have an endgame that looks favorable to black, because of
> the protected passed pawns.
"Endgame that looks favorable to Black?" Hardly resounding testimony there,
plus you're counting on White not finding a crushing line.
--
Ray Gordon, Author
Price And Probability (The Value Handicapper's Bible)
http://www.cybersheet.com/horsepix.html
Would someone PLEASE become Ashlee Schull's new #1 fan? She deserves
better.
--
Ray Gordon, Author
Price And Probability (The Value Handicapper's Bible)
http://www.cybersheet.com/horsepix.html
Would someone PLEASE become Ashlee Schull's new #1 fan? She deserves
better.
|
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Date: 08 Apr 2007 21:32:24
From: Ron
Subject: Re: Sicilian Dragon: Yugoslav Attack; 9. 0-0-0
|
In article <[email protected] >,
"Ray Gordon, creator of the \"pivot\"" <[email protected] > wrote:
> >Nevertheless, I'm a
> > little surprised you're offering this assessment because you've
> > transposed here into a known line, (9. 0-0-0 d5 10.h4?!).
> >
> > In any event, 9.h5?! d5! 10.0-0-0 dxe4 11.h5 Nxd4!
> >
> > then 12.Bxd4 e5 13.Bxe5
>
> My analysis shows a different move:
>
> 13. Bc5 Qxd2+ 14. Rxd2 Bh6 15. Bxf8 Bxd2+ 16. Kxd2 Kxf8 17. hxg6 hxg6 18.
> Nxe4 Nxe4+ 19. fxe4 (+0.09)., and may the better endgame player win.
In other words, you've got a line which shows equality, that's what
you're going for with 9.h4?!
Black has a couple of options here, based on the exchange sacrifice on
f8, although I'd have to spend more time with them than I have right now
to determine if they're any good.
But more to the point, I'm curious why you consider this endgame even.
It seems to me that black is clearly slightly better because of his
superior pawn structure.
That's not much, mind you, but black is, at worst, even here and may
well be slightly better. Are you really playing the Yugoslav attack with
nothing more than hope for an even ending?
>
> >Qxd2+ 14.Rxd2 exf3 and white's attack down the
> > h-file is history. Ward further gives: 15.hg hg 16.Bc4+ Kh8 17.fg, which
> > he evaluates as better for black. (I agree - because of the outside
> > passed pawn, a structural asset which isn't going away - although white
> > has a slight development advantage which my computer seems to like).
> >
> > Alternatively, 12.h6 Bh8 13.Bxd4 e5! 14.Bxe5 (Bc5 Bg4! - Ward - is a
> > fairly typical exchange sac which should be fine for black)
>
> 14. Bc5 Bg4! 15. Bxf8 Qxd2 16. Rxd2 exf3 17. Bc5 (+3.78). Does Ward know
> something my computer does not?
My mistake. I left out a pair of moves. 12.h6 Bh8 13.Bxd4 ef 14.Bc4 and
only now e5! 15.Bc5 Bg4!
This is clearly not worse for black.
My apologies for leaving out the move pair.
>
> "Endgame that looks favorable to Black?" Hardly resounding testimony there,
> plus you're counting on White not finding a crushing line.
And endgame win counts for just as many points as an opening win.
White doesn't have a crushing win in this line.
-Ron
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Date: 09 Apr 2007 11:54:06
From: David Richerby
Subject: Re: Sicilian Dragon: Yugoslav Attack; 9. 0-0-0
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Ron <[email protected] > wrote:
> "Ray Gordon, creator of the \"pivot\"" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> 13. Bc5 Qxd2+ 14. Rxd2 Bh6 15. Bxf8 Bxd2+ 16. Kxd2 Kxf8 17. hxg6
>> hxg6 18. Nxe4 Nxe4+ 19. fxe4 (+0.09)., and may the better endgame
>> player win.
>
> [...] But more to the point, I'm curious why you consider this
> endgame even.
BECOZ FRITZ TOLD HIM SO AND FRTIZ IS ALWAYS RITE!!!1!!!!
Dave.
--
David Richerby Hilarious Mouldy Spoon (TM): it's
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ like a piece of cutlery but it's
starting to grow mushrooms and a
bundle of laughs!
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Date: 08 Apr 2007 22:49:51
From: Ray Gordon, creator of the \pivot\
Subject: Re: Sicilian Dragon: Yugoslav Attack; 9. 0-0-0
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>> My analysis shows a different move:
>>
>> 13. Bc5 Qxd2+ 14. Rxd2 Bh6 15. Bxf8 Bxd2+ 16. Kxd2 Kxf8 17. hxg6 hxg6 18.
>> Nxe4 Nxe4+ 19. fxe4 (+0.09)., and may the better endgame player win.
>
> In other words, you've got a line which shows equality, that's what
> you're going for with 9.h4?!
If White can get a relatively easy draw with one line, that solves a major
problem. He then can build on it by searching for other lines.
9...d5 is nothing to fear. You had dismissed 9. h4 as bad, and I would
hardly consider this proof.
The problem with variations is that you can do spy vs. spy forever, to move
30 even, and you're still going to wind up with a position that is won by
the superior middlegame player.
--
Ray Gordon, Author
Price And Probability (The Value Handicapper's Bible)
http://www.cybersheet.com/horsepix.html
Would someone PLEASE become Ashlee Schull's new #1 fan? She deserves
better.
|
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Date: 08 Apr 2007 22:48:01
From: Ray Gordon, creator of the \pivot\
Subject: Re: Sicilian Dragon: Yugoslav Attack; 9. 0-0-0
|
>> >Nevertheless, I'm a
>> > little surprised you're offering this assessment because you've
>> > transposed here into a known line, (9. 0-0-0 d5 10.h4?!).
>> >
>> > In any event, 9.h5?! d5! 10.0-0-0 dxe4 11.h5 Nxd4!
>> >
>> > then 12.Bxd4 e5 13.Bxe5
>>
>> My analysis shows a different move:
>>
>> 13. Bc5 Qxd2+ 14. Rxd2 Bh6 15. Bxf8 Bxd2+ 16. Kxd2 Kxf8 17. hxg6 hxg6 18.
>> Nxe4 Nxe4+ 19. fxe4 (+0.09)., and may the better endgame player win.
>
> In other words, you've got a line which shows equality, that's what
> you're going for with 9.h4?!
Isn't chess a forced draw? +0.09 is also not equality! Also, if you
continue down, White has better along the way.
The middlegame is so rich that a player with superior middlegame talent who
gets equal or better positions out of every opening will be very strong.
> Black has a couple of options here, based on the exchange sacrifice on
> f8, although I'd have to spend more time with them than I have right now
> to determine if they're any good.
You were giving advice to another player in a previous thread as if you had
already done that work.
> But more to the point, I'm curious why you consider this endgame even.
> It seems to me that black is clearly slightly better because of his
> superior pawn structure.
"clearly slightly better?' I would think that the better middlegame player
wins that position 99 percent of the time.
> That's not much, mind you, but black is, at worst, even here and may
> well be slightly better. Are you really playing the Yugoslav attack with
> nothing more than hope for an even ending?
I don't play the Yugoslav, but if you keep going, you'll find I found an
improvement that makes this line moot.
>> >Qxd2+ 14.Rxd2 exf3 and white's attack down the
>> > h-file is history. Ward further gives: 15.hg hg 16.Bc4+ Kh8 17.fg,
>> > which
>> > he evaluates as better for black. (I agree - because of the outside
>> > passed pawn, a structural asset which isn't going away - although white
>> > has a slight development advantage which my computer seems to like).
>> >
>> > Alternatively, 12.h6 Bh8 13.Bxd4 e5! 14.Bxe5 (Bc5 Bg4! - Ward - is a
>> > fairly typical exchange sac which should be fine for black)
>>
>> 14. Bc5 Bg4! 15. Bxf8 Qxd2 16. Rxd2 exf3 17. Bc5 (+3.78). Does Ward know
>> something my computer does not?
>
> My mistake. I left out a pair of moves. 12.h6 Bh8 13.Bxd4 ef 14.Bc4
Stop putting moves in my mouth!! Not that this is particularly good for
White, though I have seen White get attacks even when things look bleak.
>> "Endgame that looks favorable to Black?" Hardly resounding testimony
>> there,
>> plus you're counting on White not finding a crushing line.
>
> And endgame win counts for just as many points as an opening win.
It's debatable that Black will even get to the endgame with an edge, let
alone at all.
The key position is after 11...Nxd4. White has to choose his move very
carefully here, and there may only be one continuation which holds an
advantage, a continuation which may or may not be obvious. Since one's
repertoire affects their career at the GM level a great deal, I would have
to explore this line very throughly before drawing a conclusion. As I said,
I don't play the Yugoslav much right now (or do I!?), so I'm a bit rusty (or
deliberately misleading).
The more aggressvie 12. Qxd4 suggests itself, as it gains time for White and
keeps the center less troublesome. If 12...Qxd4 13. Bxd4
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Date: 09 Apr 2007 11:52:37
From: David Richerby
Subject: Re: Sicilian Dragon: Yugoslav Attack; 9. 0-0-0
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Ray Gordon, creator of the \"pivot\" <[email protected] > wrote:
> Isn't chess a forced draw?
Not as far as anyone knows, no.
Dave.
--
David Richerby Pointy-Haired Hi-Fi (TM): it's like
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ a music system that's completely
clueless!
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Date: 09 Apr 2007 02:20:59
From: Ron
Subject: Re: Sicilian Dragon: Yugoslav Attack; 9. 0-0-0
|
In article <[email protected] >,
"Ray Gordon, creator of the \"pivot\"" <[email protected] > wrote:
>
> Isn't chess a forced draw? +0.09 is also not equality! Also, if you
> continue down, White has better along the way.
>
> The middlegame is so rich that a player with superior middlegame talent who
> gets equal or better positions out of every opening will be very strong.
And until recently weren't you the one who was saying that a game of
chess was won in the opening?
>
> > Black has a couple of options here, based on the exchange sacrifice on
> > f8, although I'd have to spend more time with them than I have right now
> > to determine if they're any good.
>
> You were giving advice to another player in a previous thread as if you had
> already done that work.
That was a similar idea in a different position. I've done the work on
that exchange sacrifice (although I may not be up on current theory.)
This is a very different specific position, and in the dragon, the
specific position matters.
Any dragon player will consider giving up a rook for white's
dark-squared bishop, but whether that particular sacrifice is worthwhile
depends on the specifics of the position.
> Stop putting moves in my mouth!! Not that this is particularly good for
> White, though I have seen White get attacks even when things look bleak.
If I have incorrectly put those moves in a different variation, I
apologize.
As far as "putting moves in your mouth," well, is it not normal to post
proposed variations supporting your conclusions? If you have
improvements, post them.
Or are you getting all uppity here because I just busted your line, and
you don't actually have any moves which give you a strong middlegame
attack here.
> It's debatable that Black will even get to the endgame with an edge, let
> alone at all.
Variations, please.
> As I said,
> I don't play the Yugoslav much right now (or do I!?), so I'm a bit rusty (or
> deliberately misleading).
Oh, please, Ray - do you really think any of your 1 0 opponents could be
bothered to hunt down usenet posts on the off chance you might reveal a
piece of your repetioire?
Don't delude yourself.
>
> The more aggressvie 12. Qxd4 suggests itself, as it gains time for White and
> keeps the center less troublesome. If 12...Qxd4 13. Bxd4
Of course, the queen trade ends white's dreams (and that's all they are
if you play 9.h4 d5 10.0-0-0 - which you proposed was good for white,
remember?) of a middlegame assault on the black king.
13.Bxd4 Nxh5 14.Nxe4 (or suggest an improvement) Bxd4 15.Rxd4 Bf5 and
black's a solid pawn up for, near as I can tell, nothing.
There are lines of the yugoslav where white gets a big attack, but these
ain't them.
-Ron
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