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Date: 28 Nov 2004 21:14:40
From: Mogath3
Subject: Sicilian Alapin help
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Does anyone play this? I was fiddling around in boredom today and I happend to
see this variation of the Sicilian that I'm not very familiar with. I shy away
from 1.e4 because of the Sicilian, but this looks pretty interesting. A friend
of mine always plays the Sicilian, so needless to say when him and I play I
always play my beloved London, Colle, Stonewall systems. As a surprise I'd like
to learn this line of the Sicilian as I've never seen anyone play it against
him. Sure he may know it and I may catch a beating or ten, but I'd like to play
this. Does anyone know of some online resources for some ideas, plans or
annotated games using this line? My database yielded some 11000+ games, but I'd
like to get some of the ideas behind the moves before I start going through
these. Thanks for any help.
Regards,
Jeff
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Date: 29 Nov 2004 20:48:00
From: Ray Gordon
Subject: Re: Sicilian Alapin help
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> Does anyone play this? I was fiddling around in boredom today and I
> happend to
> see this variation of the Sicilian that I'm not very familiar with. I shy
> away
> from 1.e4 because of the Sicilian,
So you don't play the best move for white out of fear?
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Date: 30 Nov 2004 03:35:33
From: Mogath3
Subject: Re: Sicilian Alapin help
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>> see this variation of the Sicilian that I'm not very familiar with. I shy
>> away
>> from 1.e4 because of the Sicilian,
>
>So you don't play the best move for white out of fear?
>
I didn't say I feared the Sicilian. I said I shy away from e4 BECAUSE of the
Sicilian. I never felt like learning ALL those different variations and when
you play 1.e4, you have a LOT to look forward to, not to mention all the 1...e5
lines. So I always preferred to stay away from e4 and play 1.d4, but seeing the
Sicilian Alapin kind of makes me want to learn that line and he Sicilian Wing
Gambit. I'd call it laziness more than anything.
Regards,
Jeff
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Date: 01 Dec 2004 10:01:35
From: Randy Bauer
Subject: Re: Sicilian Alapin help
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In article <[email protected] >, Mogath3 says...
>
>>> see this variation of the Sicilian that I'm not very familiar with. I shy
>>> away
>>> from 1.e4 because of the Sicilian,
>>
>>So you don't play the best move for white out of fear?
>>
>I didn't say I feared the Sicilian. I said I shy away from e4 BECAUSE of the
>Sicilian. I never felt like learning ALL those different variations and when
>you play 1.e4, you have a LOT to look forward to, not to mention all the 1...e5
>lines. So I always preferred to stay away from e4 and play 1.d4, but seeing the
>Sicilian Alapin kind of makes me want to learn that line and he Sicilian Wing
>Gambit. I'd call it laziness more than anything.
>
>Regards,
>Jeff
>
When New in Chess surveys their database, which is a high quality set of games,
they note that 1.d4 scores better than 1.e4, and the defense they highlight is
the Sicilian -- it scores much better for black than the norm. Hence, it seems
perfectly reasonable to use concern about the Sicilian as a reason to not play
1.e4.
You're right about the open Sicilian -- there is a lot to learn and maintain.
There are alternatives, although some (such as the Closed Sicilian) are
overplayed at amateur levels. Besides the Alapin, which still has GM advocates,
there are lots of lines, often involving Bb5, that can be put together with
various move orders to make a viable repertoire. Mickey Adams is one GM who has
made a living off these for many years. Lately, Short has done pretty well with
b3 systems.
There are also move order finesses that can screw up certain black repertoires,
such as 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Nc3 or 3.c3 or 2.Nc3, which may cause the Najdorf
defender to shy away from 2...d6 since 3.f4 is an improved version of the
attacking formations where white plays Bc4 and aims for a quick f4-f5. There
are lots of others as well.
Randy Bauer
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Date: 02 Dec 2004 00:07:48
From: Stefan Renzewitz
Subject: Re: Sicilian Alapin help
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> When New in Chess surveys their database, which is a high quality set of
> games,
> they note that 1.d4 scores better than 1.e4, and the defense they
> highlight is
> the Sicilian -- it scores much better for black than the norm. Hence, it
> seems
> perfectly reasonable to use concern about the Sicilian as a reason to not
> play
> 1.e4.
>
[snip]
> Randy Bauer
>
Very true and let's note that Kasparov (99% of his chess life he was an e4
player) is playing quite a lot of d4 games more recently and I wouldn't say
that his score has been bad so far.
Stefan
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Date: 02 Dec 2004 12:27:50
From: Mikko J Piippo
Subject: Re: Sicilian Alapin help
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In article <[email protected] >,
Stefan Renzewitz <[email protected] > wrote:
>Very true and let's note that Kasparov (99% of his chess life he was an e4
>player) is playing quite a lot of d4 games more recently and I wouldn't say
>that his score has been bad so far.
But Kramnik has started to play also 1. e4 :-)
MP
--
--
Mikko Piippo - Renvall-instituutti - Helsingin yliopisto - Finland
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Date: 01 Dec 2004 18:52:42
From: Tom Barnes
Subject: Re: Sicilian Alapin help
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"Stefan Renzewitz" <[email protected] > wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Very true and let's note that Kasparov (99% of his chess life he was an e4
> player) is playing quite a lot of d4 games more recently and I wouldn't say
> that his score has been bad so far.
Actually, Kasparov mostly played 1.d4 in the eighties. In the games in
my database he plays 1.d4 in 44% of the games and 1.e4 in 40% of the
games. Nowadays I believe Kasparov chooses his first move based on the
opponent.
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Date: 02 Dec 2004 22:11:17
From: Antonio Torrecillas
Subject: Re: Sicilian Alapin help
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En/na Tom Barnes ha escrit:
> Actually, Kasparov mostly played 1.d4 in the eighties. In the games in
> my database he plays 1.d4 in 44% of the games and 1.e4 in 40% of the
> games. Nowadays I believe Kasparov chooses his first move based on the
> opponent.
True,
Top players today know very much opening theory and try to play the most
"acurate" opening for the opponent. That mean they study what are the
holes in the opening repertoire of them.
As example, Kasparov played in last Moscow-ch tournament:
- 1.e4 against Bareev and Motylev
- 1.d4 against Dreev, Moro and Svidler (curiously 3 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 with
3.Nf3 in one and 3.Nc3 in the other two)
Unfortunately in that tournament Kasparov was black in the games with
the fourth weakest players, and He can not show their weak points in
their repertoires.
AT
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Date: 02 Dec 2004 23:54:47
From: Stefan Renzewitz
Subject: Re: Sicilian Alapin help
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"Antonio Torrecillas" <[email protected] > schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:[email protected]...
> En/na Tom Barnes ha escrit:
>
>> Actually, Kasparov mostly played 1.d4 in the eighties. In the games in
>> my database he plays 1.d4 in 44% of the games and 1.e4 in 40% of the
>> games. Nowadays I believe Kasparov chooses his first move based on the
>> opponent.
>
> True,
>
> Top players today know very much opening theory and try to play the most
> "acurate" opening for the opponent. That mean they study what are the
> holes in the opening repertoire of them.
>
Are all top players able to do that? I mean, of course they play different
sub-variations depending on their opponent or what they just prepared, but I
thought that most top players at least stick to the first move most of the
time: either d4 or e4. I believed only a few theory monsters like Kasparov
play almost any opening as they are in the mood to. Quite hard to prepare
against such an opponent btw. ...
What do you think about Morozevich? It looks like he is choosing his opening
based on the factor "unknown/less known" rather than "accurate" for current
or just any opponent. Once both players are out of theory (and the position
is complicated) he is at his best. Why did he fail in the last tournament of
Moscow? Was he just not in a good shape or did his opponents avoid his
preferred positions or ...?
Stefan
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Date: 03 Dec 2004 01:50:30
From: Antonio Torrecillas
Subject: Re: Sicilian Alapin help
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En/na Stefan Renzewitz ha escrit:
>>Top players today know very much opening theory and try to play the most
>>"acurate" opening for the opponent. That mean they study what are the
>>holes in the opening repertoire of them.
>>
>
> Are all top players able to do that? I mean, of course they play different
> sub-variations depending on their opponent or what they just prepared, but I
> thought that most top players at least stick to the first move most of the
> time: either d4 or e4. I believed only a few theory monsters like Kasparov
> play almost any opening as they are in the mood to. Quite hard to prepare
> against such an opponent btw. ...
ok, All not ...
but some top examples come to my mind: Ivanchuk, Topalov, ...
> What do you think about Morozevich? It looks like he is choosing his opening
> based on the factor "unknown/less known" rather than "accurate" for current
> or just any opponent. Once both players are out of theory (and the position
> is complicated) he is at his best. Why did he fail in the last tournament of
> Moscow? Was he just not in a good shape or did his opponents avoid his
> preferred positions or ...?
>
> Stefan
I think He knows well the lines He plays (sometimes unorthodox lines)
and He feel fine in the type of positions he reach. But I think too he
hardly repeat the same 10 opening moves in two games and try to invent
new problems for his opponents as soon as He can.
He can do do the best in a tournament and next tournament (sometimes few
days later) can be the last clasified and vice-versa.
There are many "irregular players" (at different levels, of course). I
have no idea about what is his concrete problem (psicological, physical,
style of play, type of opponents, shape, ...)
AT
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Date: 02 Dec 2004 19:02:37
From: Stefan Renzewitz
Subject: Re: Sicilian Alapin help
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"Tom Barnes" <[email protected] > schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:[email protected]...
> "Stefan Renzewitz" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:<[email protected]>...
>> Very true and let's note that Kasparov (99% of his chess life he was an
>> e4
>> player) is playing quite a lot of d4 games more recently and I wouldn't
>> say
>> that his score has been bad so far.
>
> Actually, Kasparov mostly played 1.d4 in the eighties. In the games in
> my database he plays 1.d4 in 44% of the games and 1.e4 in 40% of the
> games. Nowadays I believe Kasparov chooses his first move based on the
> opponent.
OK OK OK you got me! :))
I was too young at that time (born 1974). I made the false assumption based
on my little knowledge and didn't check any database. I thought he was
mainly an e4 player as I remember only e4 games (this impression changed for
me personally since his games against Deep Blue), but I have to admit I
didn't follow the top chess players for my whole chess career and only
recently watch the events of Linares, Dortmund, Rusia Champioship etc.
Somehow I thought Kasparov and Fischer both said that e4 is there absolutely
favorite move. Bad memory.
Stefan
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Date: 02 Dec 2004 04:04:59
From: Randy Bauer
Subject: Re: Sicilian Alapin help
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"Tom Barnes" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Stefan Renzewitz" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:<[email protected]>...
>> Very true and let's note that Kasparov (99% of his chess life he was an
>> e4
>> player) is playing quite a lot of d4 games more recently and I wouldn't
>> say
>> that his score has been bad so far.
>
> Actually, Kasparov mostly played 1.d4 in the eighties. In the games in
> my database he plays 1.d4 in 44% of the games and 1.e4 in 40% of the
> games. Nowadays I believe Kasparov chooses his first move based on the
> opponent.
He also had a period where he played 1.c4 quite a bit, and he's contributed
to the theory in a number of these lines, particularly lines where white
gambits the c-pawn for development.
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Date: 02 Dec 2004 19:04:20
From: Stefan Renzewitz
Subject: Re: Sicilian Alapin help
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>> Actually, Kasparov mostly played 1.d4 in the eighties. In the games in
>> my database he plays 1.d4 in 44% of the games and 1.e4 in 40% of the
>> games. Nowadays I believe Kasparov chooses his first move based on the
>> opponent.
>
> He also had a period where he played 1.c4 quite a bit, and he's
> contributed to the theory in a number of these lines, particularly lines
> where white gambits the c-pawn for development.
It would be interesting to see a statistic which player contributed most to
chess theory (opening).Than I studied the Bishop Opening I realized how much
Kasprov added to this one too, not to mention the Sicilians...
Is there anywhere such a statistic / overview?
Stefan
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Date: 02 Dec 2004 18:11:05
From: Randy Bauer
Subject: Re: Sicilian Alapin help
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"Stefan Renzewitz" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>>> Actually, Kasparov mostly played 1.d4 in the eighties. In the games in
>>> my database he plays 1.d4 in 44% of the games and 1.e4 in 40% of the
>>> games. Nowadays I believe Kasparov chooses his first move based on the
>>> opponent.
>>
>> He also had a period where he played 1.c4 quite a bit, and he's
>> contributed to the theory in a number of these lines, particularly lines
>> where white gambits the c-pawn for development.
>
> It would be interesting to see a statistic which player contributed most
> to chess theory (opening).Than I studied the Bishop Opening I realized how
> much Kasprov added to this one too, not to mention the Sicilians...
>
> Is there anywhere such a statistic / overview?
>
> Stefan
I supppose one method would be to look at the Informants' picks for top
theoretical novelties and do an aggregate score; of course, this only covers
games in the Informant and would only be useful for the timeframe that
Informants have been issued. I don't use the Informants anymore, sorry, so
can't help there.
Sometimes players' impact on an opening or defense goes beyond mere TNs. I
remember, for example, the profound impact that Duncan Suttles had on play
in Pirc/Robatsch/Modern sorts of positions back in the early 70s.
Randy Bauer
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Date: 01 Dec 2004 02:27:35
From: Matt Nemmers
Subject: Re: Sicilian Alapin help
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"Mogath3" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>>> see this variation of the Sicilian that I'm not very familiar with. I
>>> shy
>>> away
>>> from 1.e4 because of the Sicilian,
>>
>>So you don't play the best move for white out of fear?
>>
> I didn't say I feared the Sicilian. I said I shy away from e4 BECAUSE of
> the
> Sicilian. I never felt like learning ALL those different variations and
> when
> you play 1.e4, you have a LOT to look forward to, not to mention all the
> 1...e5
> lines. So I always preferred to stay away from e4 and play 1.d4, but
> seeing the
> Sicilian Alapin kind of makes me want to learn that line and he Sicilian
> Wing
> Gambit. I'd call it laziness more than anything.
>
> Regards,
> Jeff
Gordo doesn't play OTB out of fear. Now he's a big ICC advocate. I guess
he's found it's easier to cheat online than it is over the board. That's
how he's gotten his ICC rating all the way up to 1700, ya know.
Regards,
Matt
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Date: 01 Dec 2004 13:30:42
From: Ray Gordon
Subject: Re: Sicilian Alapin help
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>>>> see this variation of the Sicilian that I'm not very familiar with. I
>>>> shy
>>>> away
>>>> from 1.e4 because of the Sicilian,
>>>
>>>So you don't play the best move for white out of fear?
>>>
>> I didn't say I feared the Sicilian. I said I shy away from e4 BECAUSE of
>> the
>> Sicilian. I never felt like learning ALL those different variations and
>> when
>> you play 1.e4, you have a LOT to look forward to, not to mention all the
>> 1...e5
>> lines. So I always preferred to stay away from e4 and play 1.d4, but
>> seeing the
>> Sicilian Alapin kind of makes me want to learn that line and he Sicilian
>> Wing
>> Gambit. I'd call it laziness more than anything.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Jeff
>
> Gordo doesn't play OTB out of fear. Now he's a big ICC advocate. I guess
> he's found it's easier to cheat online than it is over the board. That's
> how he's gotten his ICC rating all the way up to 1700, ya know.
You should not go around accusing people of stuff like that when you know or
should know that it's not true.
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Date: 01 Dec 2004 03:12:34
From: Mogath3
Subject: Re: Sicilian Alapin help
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>Gordo doesn't play OTB out of fear. Now he's a big ICC advocate. I guess
>he's found it's easier to cheat online than it is over the board. That's
>how he's gotten his ICC rating all the way up to 1700, ya know.
>
In my opinion, the only real chess is online chess. It's funny to see someone
with a fat rating online play otb. A lot of times someone with a 2300 online
rating usually has a 1200 otb rating. Hhahaha!!!
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Date: 28 Nov 2004 22:39:42
From: Stefan Renzewitz
Subject: Re: Sicilian Alapin help
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"Mogath3" <[email protected] > schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:[email protected]...
> Does anyone play this? I was fiddling around in boredom today and I
> happend to
> see this variation of the Sicilian that I'm not very familiar with. I shy
> away
> from 1.e4 because of the Sicilian, but this looks pretty interesting. A
> friend
> of mine always plays the Sicilian, so needless to say when him and I play
> I
> always play my beloved London, Colle, Stonewall systems. As a surprise I'd
> like
> to learn this line of the Sicilian as I've never seen anyone play it
> against
> him. Sure he may know it and I may catch a beating or ten, but I'd like to
> play
> this. Does anyone know of some online resources for some ideas, plans or
> annotated games using this line? My database yielded some 11000+ games,
> but I'd
> like to get some of the ideas behind the moves before I start going
> through
> these. Thanks for any help.
>
> Regards,
> Jeff
Hi Jeff,
the bible for the Alapin Sicilian is "Play the 2. c3 Sicilian" by Rozentalis
and Harley. As far as I know it is the last big work about this opening. You
can find some reviews by different authors here (check the section 'P'):
http://www.jeremysilman.com/book_reviews/index_openings.html
Regarding some good online resources I don't know, but others might be able
to post some links.
If you don't play e4 because you fear the sicilian, you can look for the
Bb5(+) or closed sicilian as a workaround for the moment till you think you
are ready to study the heavy theory variations. OK, for Bb5 there exists a
quite big book too, but it is less well known. For the closed sicilian you
may want to check a chessbase CD called "Attacking repertoire for White" or
something similar by Bangierev(?). It covers a whole white repertoire based
on 1. e4 and I liked it much more than other chessbase CDs. Check
www.chessbase.com.
Good luck!
--
Stefan Renzewitz
http://www.chesspositiontrainer.com - train your repertoire faster than ever
before - for free
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