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Main
Date: 07 Dec 2004 08:41:33
From: Jef
Subject: Re: 1. e4 e6 2. d4 Ne7
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small correction,
as my last message wasnt very clear
> > > "Freedom" defense after Nc6. The e7
> knight can go to c6 after c5 >and the
> b8 knight can go to d7.
yep, i meant the line e4 d6 d4 Ne7 3. Bc4 Ng6
and then:
>
> if white plays 4. Nc3, then eg. a6 5. Nf3 Be7
> and then 6. 0-0 white's position is better
maybe followed by a later h4 to chase the knight on g6 away
all very nice, but maybe 3. Nf3 is better (than Bc4); with
lots of possible positions which can occur..
:)
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Date: 24 Dec 2004 19:24:16
From: gnohmon
Subject: Re: 1. e4 e6 2. d4 Ne7
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1 e4 e6 2 d4 Ne7? 3 c4 d5 4 Nc3 de4
> 5.Bg5
I thought that was a typo but actually it's an
interesting idea, especially given the premise that
...Ne7-f5 is the one move that gives independent
meaning to 2...Ne7?, the one move that may
liberate the Black position.
5...f5??!? should lose to the Obvious Gambit (TM),
and 5...f6?! 6 Be3 or even 6 Bc1 can be played.
Or 5...h6 6 Qh5 Qd4 7 Rd1 Qc5 (Qe5?? Qb6!?) 8 Ne4,
and W should be interested in analyzing this.
The more spirited response would be 5...Nb8-c6 and if
6 d5 Ne5 (7 de6 Be6 8 Ne4 Qd1+ and B or Nxc4; 7 Nxe4
ed5; else ...Nd3+ always to watch for).
What responses did you have in mind for Black?
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Date: 23 Dec 2004 13:14:06
From: gnohmon
Subject: Re: 1. e4 e6 2. d4 Ne7
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> I wouldn't release the tension. After 3...d5 4.Nc3 black has the
problem of
> his kingside constipation.
Perhaps you can kill Black by giving him what he wants?
1 e4 e6 2 d4 Ne7? 3 c4 d5 4 Nc3 de4 5 Ne4 Nf5, Black has
played the move that gives ...Ne7 some meaning.
6 Nf3 Nd7 7 g4 Nh4 8 Bg5 Nf3+ 9 Qf3 Bb4+ shows
that White can't have everything here.
After reasonable W moves, I'd expect Black to be no
worse off than in most book openings, and this because
3 c4 doesn't really do anything that's specially intended
to counteract the liberating move Ne7-f5.
7 d5?! Nc5 8 Nc3 (8 Ng3!? Nh4)
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Date: 24 Dec 2004 03:15:04
From: Randy Bauer
Subject: Re: 1. e4 e6 2. d4 Ne7
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"gnohmon" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>> I wouldn't release the tension. After 3...d5 4.Nc3 black has the
> problem of
>> his kingside constipation.
>
> Perhaps you can kill Black by giving him what he wants?
> 1 e4 e6 2 d4 Ne7? 3 c4 d5 4 Nc3 de4 5 Ne4 Nf5, Black has
> played the move that gives ...Ne7 some meaning.
>
> 6 Nf3 Nd7 7 g4 Nh4 8 Bg5 Nf3+ 9 Qf3 Bb4+ shows
> that White can't have everything here.
>
> After reasonable W moves, I'd expect Black to be no
> worse off than in most book openings, and this because
> 3 c4 doesn't really do anything that's specially intended
> to counteract the liberating move Ne7-f5.
> 7 d5?! Nc5 8 Nc3 (8 Ng3!? Nh4)
5.Bg5
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Date: 21 Dec 2004 19:28:53
From: gnohmon
Subject: Re: 1. e4 e6 2. d4 Ne7
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Randy Bauer:
> I think 1.e4 e6 2.d4 Ne7 3.c4 is the way I would handle
> this position. Black can go for a Hippo structure, [...]
> but otherwise I'm not sure what
> independent value black gets from the early ...Ne7.
If you go for the Hippopotamous, ...Ne7 has no independent
value at all.
If 1.e4 e6 2.d4 Ne7 3.c4 d5, ...Ne7 has the advantage that
4.e4-e5 does not attack the Knight -- which does not mean
that this is good for Black, of course. 4. ed5 ed5 5 Nc3 is
an obvious way to play for some advantage.
I still would prefer 3 Nf3 d5 4 Bd3.
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Date: 23 Dec 2004 03:11:06
From: Randy Bauer
Subject: Re: 1. e4 e6 2. d4 Ne7
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"gnohmon" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Randy Bauer:
>> I think 1.e4 e6 2.d4 Ne7 3.c4 is the way I would handle
>> this position. Black can go for a Hippo structure, [...]
>> but otherwise I'm not sure what
>> independent value black gets from the early ...Ne7.
>
> If you go for the Hippopotamous, ...Ne7 has no independent
> value at all.
>
> If 1.e4 e6 2.d4 Ne7 3.c4 d5, ...Ne7 has the advantage that
> 4.e4-e5 does not attack the Knight -- which does not mean
> that this is good for Black, of course. 4. ed5 ed5 5 Nc3 is
> an obvious way to play for some advantage.
> I still would prefer 3 Nf3 d5 4 Bd3.
I wouldn't release the tension. After 3...d5 4.Nc3 black has the problem of
his kingside constipation.
Randy Bauer
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Date: 08 Dec 2004 09:10:53
From: Randy Bauer
Subject: Re: 1. e4 e6 2. d4 Ne7
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In article <[email protected] >, Jef says...
>
>small correction,
>as my last message wasnt very clear
>
>> > > "Freedom" defense after Nc6. The e7
>> knight can go to c6 after c5 >and the
>> b8 knight can go to d7.
>
>yep, i meant the line e4 d6 d4 Ne7 3. Bc4 Ng6
I assume you meant 1.e4 e6 2.d4 Ne7 3.Bc4 Ng6.
I don't understand the move 3.Bc4, which doesn't stop 3...d5, which looks pretty
obvious. After 4.exd5 Nxd5 black is fine. I would think that either knight
move, 3.Nc3 or 3.Nf3 would be preferred. I would be uncertain whether the
bishop would be better on d3 or e2 so would hold off on that development.
Randy Bauer
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Date: 08 Dec 2004 20:28:18
From: Jerzy
Subject: Re: 1. e4 e6 2. d4 Ne7
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"Randy Bauer" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I assume you meant 1.e4 e6 2.d4 Ne7 3.Bc4 Ng6.
>
> I don't understand the move 3.Bc4, which doesn't stop 3...d5, which looks
pretty
> obvious. After 4.exd5 Nxd5 black is fine.
I disagree, Nxd5 isn`t the best move IMHO. It leaves a bad bishop on c8 for
black. Thus exd5 is much better. It gives a tempo for black and frees the
bad bishop on c8.
I would think that either knight
> move, 3.Nc3 or 3.Nf3 would be preferred. I would be uncertain whether the
> bishop would be better on d3 or e2 so would hold off on that development.
Capablanka taught us to develop knights first and only afterwards bishops.
BTW e2 and d3 are too modest fields for a bishop who operates best on great
diagonals like h1- a8 and a1 - h8 and that`s what Reti thaught us.
:-)
Regards,
Jerzy
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Date: 08 Dec 2004 13:10:24
From: Randy Bauer
Subject: Re: 1. e4 e6 2. d4 Ne7
|
In article <[email protected] >, Jerzy says...
>
>"Randy Bauer" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> I assume you meant 1.e4 e6 2.d4 Ne7 3.Bc4 Ng6.
>>
>> I don't understand the move 3.Bc4, which doesn't stop 3...d5, which looks
>pretty
>> obvious. After 4.exd5 Nxd5 black is fine.
>
>I disagree, Nxd5 isn`t the best move IMHO. It leaves a bad bishop on c8 for
>black. Thus exd5 is much better. It gives a tempo for black and frees the
>bad bishop on c8.
After 4...Nxd5 the pawn formation is often found in the French, with the
difference that white usually ends up with a knight on e4 and black has a knight
on f6. The transformation, with black having a nicely centralized knight and
the bishop looking kind of funny on c4, has to be good for black. Meanwhile,
the knight on d5 hampers white's development, because Nc3 with allow black to
mess up white's pawns "for free" with ...Nxc3. The bishop on c1 also doesn't
have a good square.
I don't doubt that 4...exd5 is playable and takes a bigger share of the center,
but black is going to have to find another square for the knight on e7, and g6
doesn't fit the new pawn structure. I suppose the knight could go to f5, or,
after, say 5.Bd3 be used to support ...Bf5. It's probably a matter of taste and
black is probably ok in either case. It is mostly just further proof that 3.Bc4
doesn't make a lot of sense. White should probably just play 4.Bd3, since
4...dxe4 5.Bxe4 black doesn't have the usual idea of ...Nf6 since he's put it on
the odd e7 square.
On the other hand, if you were black and a regular practitioner of the French
defense, and were offered the chance to play the position after 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5
3.Bd3 Ne7 -- and black gets to move again, would you? I probably would.
Randy Bauer
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Date: 08 Dec 2004 22:55:14
From: Jerzy
Subject: Re: 1. e4 e6 2. d4 Ne7
|
"Randy Bauer" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> After 4...Nxd5 the pawn formation is often found in the French, with the
> difference that white usually ends up with a knight on e4 and black has a
knight
> on f6. The transformation, with black having a nicely centralized knight
and
> the bishop looking kind of funny on c4, has to be good for black.
Meanwhile,
> the knight on d5 hampers white's development, because Nc3 with allow black
to
> mess up white's pawns "for free" with ...Nxc3. The bishop on c1 also
doesn't
> have a good square.
>
> I don't doubt that 4...exd5 is playable and takes a bigger share of the
center,
> but black is going to have to find another square for the knight on e7,
and g6
> doesn't fit the new pawn structure. I suppose the knight could go to f5,
or,
> after, say 5.Bd3 be used to support ...Bf5. It's probably a matter of
taste and
> black is probably ok in either case.
Well, there are some other plans in the opening for the black. The first
rule is to develop pieces as fast as possible and it`s clear that after exd5
the black will have a tempo advantage i.e. they can faster develop their
second piece. So white lost their colour advantage. And after Nxd5 the tempo
goes back to the white.
It is mostly just further proof that 3.Bc4
> doesn't make a lot of sense. White should probably just play 4.Bd3, since
> 4...dxe4 5.Bxe4 black doesn't have the usual idea of ...Nf6 since he's put
it on
> the odd e7 square.
>
> On the other hand, if you were black and a regular practitioner of the
French
> defense, and were offered the chance to play the position after 1.e4 e6
2.d4 d5
> 3.Bd3 Ne7 -- and black gets to move again, would you? I probably would.
Developping knight on e7 is typical for the black in French and the
variation 1.e4 e6 2. d4 Ne7 can lead to many well-known French variations.
And Bd3 is for sure not advisable in such an early stage of the game.
BTW I thought you killfiled me.
Regards,
Jerzy
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Date: 08 Dec 2004 14:17:43
From: Randy Bauer
Subject: Re: 1. e4 e6 2. d4 Ne7
|
In article <[email protected] >, Jerzy says...
>
>"Randy Bauer" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>
>> After 4...Nxd5 the pawn formation is often found in the French, with the
>> difference that white usually ends up with a knight on e4 and black has a
>knight
>> on f6. The transformation, with black having a nicely centralized knight
>and
>> the bishop looking kind of funny on c4, has to be good for black.
>Meanwhile,
>> the knight on d5 hampers white's development, because Nc3 with allow black
>to
>> mess up white's pawns "for free" with ...Nxc3. The bishop on c1 also
>doesn't
>> have a good square.
>>
>> I don't doubt that 4...exd5 is playable and takes a bigger share of the
>center,
>> but black is going to have to find another square for the knight on e7,
>and g6
>> doesn't fit the new pawn structure. I suppose the knight could go to f5,
>or,
>> after, say 5.Bd3 be used to support ...Bf5. It's probably a matter of
>taste and
>> black is probably ok in either case.
>
>Well, there are some other plans in the opening for the black. The first
>rule is to develop pieces as fast as possible and it`s clear that after exd5
>the black will have a tempo advantage i.e. they can faster develop their
>second piece. So white lost their colour advantage. And after Nxd5 the tempo
>goes back to the white.
Not really, because the knight on e7 will have to move again to allow the black
bishop to develop. Besides, sometimes quantity should yield to quality. The
knight on d5 is a quality piece, and I already explained how it makes life
difficult for white, development-wise (both the queen knight and queen bishop
are hampered by the knight on d5). The knight on e7, in a more open pawn
structure, is not necessarily so well placed.
>
>
> It is mostly just further proof that 3.Bc4
>> doesn't make a lot of sense. White should probably just play 4.Bd3, since
>> 4...dxe4 5.Bxe4 black doesn't have the usual idea of ...Nf6 since he's put
>it on
>> the odd e7 square.
>>
>> On the other hand, if you were black and a regular practitioner of the
>French
>> defense, and were offered the chance to play the position after 1.e4 e6
>2.d4 d5
>> 3.Bd3 Ne7 -- and black gets to move again, would you? I probably would.
>
>Developping knight on e7 is typical for the black in French and the
>variation 1.e4 e6 2. d4 Ne7 can lead to many well-known French variations.
>And Bd3 is for sure not advisable in such an early stage of the game.
The knight on e7 can be useful in some French structures, but it is mostly with
a closed pawn structure or with the black bishop already developed to b4 (hence
not blocked in). That is not the case here.
>
>
>BTW I thought you killfiled me.
Phil's pleas caused me to reconsider, although I doubt I'll be reading your
posts on RGCP. This isn't a discussion about politics, just chess analysis.
>
>Regards,
>
>Jerzy
>
>
Randy Bauer
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Date: 09 Dec 2004 09:11:54
From: Jerzy
Subject: Re: 1. e4 e6 2. d4 Ne7
|
"Randy Bauer" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
And after Nxd5 the tempo
> >goes back to the white.
>
> Not really, because the knight on e7 will have to move again to allow the
black
> bishop to develop. Besides, sometimes quantity should yield to quality.
The
> knight on d5 is a quality piece, and I already explained how it makes life
> difficult for white, development-wise (both the queen knight and queen
bishop
> are hampered by the knight on d5). The knight on e7, in a more open pawn
> structure, is not necessarily so well placed.
What matters here is the development of the pieces and it`s obvious that
black can develop pieces faster in the case exd5 e.g. Nbc6 and then Bf5 -
Qd7 - and even 0-0-0 etc.
> The knight on e7 can be useful in some French structures, but it is mostly
with
> a closed pawn structure or with the black bishop already developed to b4
(hence
> not blocked in). That is not the case here.
I agree that 2. ... Ne7 is an odd move because it blocks diagonals for both
bishop on f8 and queeen on d8. However exploiting it is not that easy.
> >BTW I thought you killfiled me.
>
> Phil's pleas caused me to reconsider, although I doubt I'll be reading
your
> posts on RGCP. This isn't a discussion about politics, just chess
analysis.
Be sure that I won`t change my opinion about you easily. It`s enough for me
that you behaved rudely several times on RGC* groups and it`s an
unacceptable behaviour of any chess federation official.
Regards,
Jerzy
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Date: 09 Dec 2004 06:11:41
From: Randy Bauer
Subject: Re: 1. e4 e6 2. d4 Ne7
|
In article <[email protected] >, Jerzy says...
>
>"Randy Bauer" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>
> And after Nxd5 the tempo
>> >goes back to the white.
>>
>> Not really, because the knight on e7 will have to move again to allow the
>black
>> bishop to develop. Besides, sometimes quantity should yield to quality.
>The
>> knight on d5 is a quality piece, and I already explained how it makes life
>> difficult for white, development-wise (both the queen knight and queen
>bishop
>> are hampered by the knight on d5). The knight on e7, in a more open pawn
>> structure, is not necessarily so well placed.
>
>What matters here is the development of the pieces and it`s obvious that
>black can develop pieces faster in the case exd5 e.g. Nbc6 and then Bf5 -
>Qd7 - and even 0-0-0 etc.
It's a reasonable plan; I think it's a matter of taste. Some people don't like
the exchange French pawn structure that arises, although it's true that the
silly 3.Bc4 gives black an extra tempo over normal positions. Black's position
after ...Nxd5 is also much better than he would normally expect from this French
pawn structure, so take your pick.
>
>
>> The knight on e7 can be useful in some French structures, but it is mostly
>with
>> a closed pawn structure or with the black bishop already developed to b4
>(hence
>> not blocked in). That is not the case here.
>
>I agree that 2. ... Ne7 is an odd move because it blocks diagonals for both
>bishop on f8 and queeen on d8. However exploiting it is not that easy.
But that is entirely a different topic for discussion. I think 1.e4 e6 2.d4 Ne7
3.c4 is the way I would handle this position. Black can go for a Hippo
structure, of course, with ...g6...Bg7, but otherwise I'm not sure what
independent value black gets from the early ...Ne7.
>> >BTW I thought you killfiled me.
>>
>> Phil's pleas caused me to reconsider, although I doubt I'll be reading
>your
>> posts on RGCP. This isn't a discussion about politics, just chess
>analysis.
>
>
>Be sure that I won`t change my opinion about you easily. It`s enough for me
>that you behaved rudely several times on RGC* groups and it`s an
>unacceptable behaviour of any chess federation official.
>
>Regards,
>
>Jerzy
>
You're entitled to your opinion, although it's more suitable for a different
chess newsgroup. I'll refrain from voicing my opinion about yours, because,
unlike some others, I try to respect the content parameters of the different
chess newsgroups.
Randy Bauer
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Date: 09 Dec 2004 15:56:31
From: Jerzy
Subject: Re: 1. e4 e6 2. d4 Ne7
|
"Randy Bauer" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> >What matters here is the development of the pieces and it`s obvious that
> >black can develop pieces faster in the case exd5 e.g. Nbc6 and then Bf5 -
> >Qd7 - and even 0-0-0 etc.
>
> It's a reasonable plan; I think it's a matter of taste. Some people don't
like
> the exchange French pawn structure that arises, although it's true that
the
> silly 3.Bc4 gives black an extra tempo over normal positions. Black's
position
> after ...Nxd5 is also much better than he would normally expect from this
French
> pawn structure, so take your pick.
I don`t see much sense in discussing which is better Nxd5 or exd5 simply Bc4
is an opening mistake. Sure, in my opinion exd5 is better.
> >I agree that 2. ... Ne7 is an odd move because it blocks diagonals for
both
> >bishop on f8 and queeen on d8. However exploiting it is not that easy.
>
> But that is entirely a different topic for discussion. I think 1.e4 e6
2.d4 Ne7
> 3.c4 is the way I would handle this position. Black can go for a Hippo
> structure, of course, with ...g6...Bg7, but otherwise I'm not sure what
> independent value black gets from the early ...Ne7.
I understand that you mean a hyper-modern postion for black. That`s correct.
Black can try to transform his odd position into it. One of the most
frequently met positions is : pawns on b6, e6, d6 and g6, bishops on b7 and
g7 and knights on d7 and e7. I`ve seen it played by many good players not
only in blitz.
> You're entitled to your opinion, although it's more suitable for a
different
> chess newsgroup. I'll refrain from voicing my opinion about yours,
because,
> unlike some others, I try to respect the content parameters of the
different
> chess newsgroups.
As I`ve already written I`m not a judge in your case. But one of the things
I
appreciate, not only in the usenet, is restraining oneself from personal
attacks.
Regards,
Jerzy
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Date: 09 Dec 2004 23:03:51
From: Randy Bauer
Subject: Re: 1. e4 e6 2. d4 Ne7
|
"Jerzy" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Randy Bauer" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
I think 1.e4 e6
> 2.d4 Ne7
>> 3.c4 is the way I would handle this position. Black can go for a Hippo
>> structure, of course, with ...g6...Bg7, but otherwise I'm not sure what
>> independent value black gets from the early ...Ne7.
>
> I understand that you mean a hyper-modern postion for black. That`s
> correct.
> Black can try to transform his odd position into it. One of the most
> frequently met positions is : pawns on b6, e6, d6 and g6, bishops on b7
> and
> g7 and knights on d7 and e7. I`ve seen it played by many good players not
> only in blitz.
No, I actually meant "Hippo" which is short for Hippopotamus, which is what
this formation has been dubbed by some commentators. You are correct that
it has a reasonable pedigree, including the Spassky-Petrosian world
championship match.
Randy Bauer
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Date: 20 Dec 2004 18:41:17
From: Jerzy
Subject: Re: 1. e4 e6 2. d4 Ne7
|
"Randy Bauer" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:rR4ud.541878$D%.185081@attbi_s51...
> No, I actually meant "Hippo" which is short for Hippopotamus, which is
what
> this formation has been dubbed by some commentators. You are correct that
> it has a reasonable pedigree, including the Spassky-Petrosian world
> championship match.
Here`s a modern example of a hippopotamus defence from 2000 :
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3542-1405528,00.html
I must say that Anthony Miles was a big specialist of "hippo"openings :-)
Regards,
Jerzy
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Date: 09 Dec 2004 15:52:02
From: Jerzy
Subject: Re: 1. e4 e6 2. d4 Ne7
|
"Randy Bauer" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> >What matters here is the development of the pieces and it`s obvious that
> >black can develop pieces faster in the case exd5 e.g. Nbc6 and then Bf5 -
> >Qd7 - and even 0-0-0 etc.
>
> It's a reasonable plan; I think it's a matter of taste. Some people don't
like
> the exchange French pawn structure that arises, although it's true that
the
> silly 3.Bc4 gives black an extra tempo over normal positions. Black's
position
> after ...Nxd5 is also much better than he would normally expect from this
French
> pawn structure, so take your pick.
I don`t see much sense in discussing which is better Nxd5 or exd5 simply Bc4
is an opening mistake.
> >I agree that 2. ... Ne7 is an odd move because it blocks diagonals for
both
> >bishop on f8 and queeen on d8. However exploiting it is not that easy.
>
> But that is entirely a different topic for discussion. I think 1.e4 e6
2.d4 Ne7
> 3.c4 is the way I would handle this position. Black can go for a Hippo
> structure, of course, with ...g6...Bg7, but otherwise I'm not sure what
> independent value black gets from the early ...Ne7.
I understand that you mean a hypomodern postion for black. That`s correct.
Black can try to transform his odd position into it. One of the most
frequently met positions is : pawns on b6, e6, d6 and g6, bishops on b7 and
g7 and knights on d7 and e7.
> You're entitled to your opinion, although it's more suitable for a
different
> chess newsgroup. I'll refrain from voicing my opinion about yours,
because,
> unlike some others, I try to respect the content parameters of the
different
> chess newsgroups.
As I`ve already written I`m not a judge in your case. But one of the tings I
appreciate, not only in the usenet, is restraining oneself from personal
attacks.
Regards,
Jerzy
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|
