Problems with Van Perlo's book?

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Date: 30 Aug 2006 21:19:31
From: John Sheatsley
Subject: Problems with Van Perlo's book?

Hi, all,

My good friend Fritz and I have just started going through Van Perlo's book,
"Endgame Tactics", and already have questions/problems with some of the
analysis presented.

First, in diagram 3, 1k6/p1p5/2K5/P7/2P5/8/8/8 w - - 0 1
The moves/comments are: "1. Kd7? (1. a6 and 2. c5 looks like the simplest
method, for example: 1. a6 Kc8 2. c5 Kb8 3. Kd7 Ka8
4. Kc8 c6 5. Kd7 Kb8 6. Kd6! Kc8 7. Kxc6 Kb8
8. Kd7 Ka8 9. c6 Kb8 10. c7+ wins) 1. ... c5! 2. Kc6 Kc8 (more moves)
and White had to settle for a draw."

But it sure looks to us in the 'winning variation' that 2. ... Kd8
(instead of 2. ... Kb8) holds the draw. For example, 3. Kb7 (3. Kb5 Kd7)
3. .. c6 4. Kxc6 (4. Kxa7 Kc7) 4. ... Kc8=)

Second, in diagram 14, 8/2k4p/2p3p1/5pP1/2pP1P2/2P1KP2/8/8 w - - 0 66
This goes: 66. d5! c5 67. Kd2 (more moves and Black resigns).

There really needs to be a comment that 66. ... cxd5 and Black is winning!

Finally, in diagram 16, 8/2k5/Kp4p1/5p1p/P6P/6P1/5P2/8 b - - 0 47
47. ...f4!! 48. gxf4 Kc6 49. f3 Kc5 50. Kb7 b5 51. axb5 and
Van Perlo adds, "Of course, 51. a5 is met by 51. ... b4 and, if anything
Black, is better."

This looks to us as equal as equal can be; a6-b3-a7-b2-a8Q-b1Q+ and how
is Black better?

I'd be interested in your thoughts on the above and anything else you might
have
found in this book.

Regards,
John

Date: 22 Sep 2006 19:27:05
From: Mike
Subject: Re: Problems with Van Perlo's book?

>
> Finally, in diagram 16, 8/2k5/Kp4p1/5p1p/P6P/6P1/5P2/8 b - - 0 47
> 47. ...f4!! 48. gxf4 Kc6 49. f3 Kc5 50. Kb7 b5 51. axb5 and
> Van Perlo adds, "Of course, 51. a5 is met by 51. ... b4 and, if anything
> Black, is better."
>
> This looks to us as equal as equal can be; a6-b3-a7-b2-a8Q-b1Q+ and how
> is Black better?
>

Black is better after white queens his a-pawn and black queens his b-pawn
then black king walks to white pawns which are close to him.

Mike.

Date: 23 Sep 2006 01:43:55
From: John Sheatsley
Subject: Re: Problems with Van Perlo's book?

"Mike" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:dOWQg.30384$bf5.100@edtnps90...
> >
>> Finally, in diagram 16, 8/2k5/Kp4p1/5p1p/P6P/6P1/5P2/8 b - - 0 47
>> 47. ...f4!! 48. gxf4 Kc6 49. f3 Kc5 50. Kb7 b5 51. axb5 and
>> Van Perlo adds, "Of course, 51. a5 is met by 51. ... b4 and, if anything
>> Black, is better."
>>
>> This looks to us as equal as equal can be; a6-b3-a7-b2-a8Q-b1Q+ and how
>> is Black better?
>>
>
> Black is better after white queens his a-pawn and black queens his b-pawn
> then black king walks to white pawns which are close to him.
>
> Mike.
>

Mike,

Let's look at some moves. After both players queen, White is in check.
His only move is 55. Kc7 as all other moves lose. (Ka6 or Ka7 and Black
mates with ... Qb6. If Kc8 then Fritz gives a mate in 22 for Black.) Our
pal, Fritz 9, says position is = after 55. Kc7. You say Black goes after
the pawns with the King so let him play 55. ... Kd4. White plays 56. Qe8
cutting the
Black King off from approaching the pawns further; F9 says position
is still =.

So Black tries to go after the pawns with the Queen by 56. ... Qf5. White
plays Kd8 or Kc6 or Kb6. Black captures on f4; White captures on g6;
Black captures on f3. We now have a wide open board with both players
having Queens and blockading h-pawns. There just isn't a win for Black
under those circumstances so it's wrong for Van Perlo to say Black is
better.

If you see a winning line for Black, please enlighten us!

Regards,
John

Date: 22 Sep 2006 19:14:32
From: Mike
Subject: Re: Problems with Van Perlo's book?

>
> Second, in diagram 14, 8/2k4p/2p3p1/5pP1/2pP1P2/2P1KP2/8/8 w - - 0 66
> This goes: 66. d5! c5 67. Kd2 (more moves and Black resigns).
>
> There really needs to be a comment that 66. ... cxd5 and Black is winning!
>

After 66...cxd5 Black loses quicker than 66...c5. So what is your point
here?

Mike.

Date: 23 Sep 2006 01:19:03
From: John Sheatsley
Subject: Re: Problems with Van Perlo's book?

"Mike" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:sCWQg.30358$bf5.22931@edtnps90...
> >
>> Second, in diagram 14, 8/2k4p/2p3p1/5pP1/2pP1P2/2P1KP2/8/8 w - - 0 66
>> This goes: 66. d5! c5 67. Kd2 (more moves and Black resigns).
>>
>> There really needs to be a comment that 66. ... cxd5 and Black is
>> winning!
>>
>
> After 66...cxd5 Black loses quicker than 66...c5. So what is your point
> here?
>
> Mike.
>

Black does NOT lose after 66. ... cxd5. Indeed, Fritz finds mate in
(no more than) 40 moves against White. Quite a bit different result
than the losing line Black went into in the book. This possibility
was not pointed out by Van Perlo.

Regards,
John

Date: 31 Aug 2006 14:52:12
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Problems with Van Perlo's book?

I checked your analysis, and have to agree 100%.

The idea behind the book is so good, I wonder, would the publisher
allow a blog to include such errata? Just think of what could
develop....

Date: 01 Sep 2006 12:47:09
From: John Sheatsley
Subject: Re: Problems with Van Perlo's book?

<[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> I checked your analysis, and have to agree 100%.
>
> The idea behind the book is so good, I wonder, would the publisher
> allow a blog to include such errata? Just think of what could
> develop....
>

Thanks for the sanity check. May have to think about the blog.
Hmmmm.....

Regards,
John

Date: 01 Sep 2006 12:22:21
From: David Richerby
Subject: Re: Problems with Van Perlo's book?

[email protected] <[email protected] > wrote:
> The idea behind the book is so good, I wonder, would the publisher
> allow a blog to include such errata? Just think of what could
> develop....

As long as you restrict yourself to reporting genuine errors in the
book, there's nothing the publisher can do to stop you. Quoting small
fragments of the book to show what you're correcting would, I believe,
fall within `fair use' in the US and would certainly be legal in the
UK.

Dave.

--
David Richerby Disposable Flower (TM): it's like a
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ flower but you never have to clean it!

Date: 30 Aug 2006 20:12:11
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Problems with Van Perlo's book?

Like any endgame book, these things oocur. The question is "how often"?
I've seen these kind of mistakes a few times in the book, but it seems
to be holding up pretty well.

However, like you, I have only "fritzed" a few. (and haven't been able
to look at your analysis but plan to when I wake in the morning).

I have more trouble with the book showing too many "pretty wins" in
positions where a lot of other stuff wins as well.

The book is a great idea, and unlike many endgame books, is easy to
just "jump into" here and there.

I do, would be interested in hearing of blatant errors in the book.