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Date: 19 Jan 2008 07:43:57
From: Sanny
Subject: Please Analyze this Game between Help Bot & Beginner.
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Game Played between help bot and beginner at GetClub.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- help bot: (White) beginner: (Black) Game Played at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html View Recorded Game: http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?id=DM14332&game=Chess -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- White -- Black (help bot) -- (beginner) 1. e2-e3{4} e7-e5{0} 2. d2-d4{4} e5-d4{6} 3. e3-d4{2} d7-d5{10} 4. Bf1-d3{6} Nb8-c6{8} 5. c2-c3{8} Ng8-f6{10} 6. Bc1-g5{6} Qd8-d6{10} 7. Ng1-e2{12} h7-h6{6} 8. Bg5-f4{8} Qd6-e7{6} 9. Ke1-g1{6} Bc8-g4{10} 10. f2-f3{12} Bg4-e6{6} 11. Rf1-e1{8} g7-g5{8} 12. Bf4-g3{22} Ke8-c8{6} 13. Nb1-d2{16} Bf8-g7{6} 14. Nd2-b3{10} Nf6-h5{6} 15. Bg3-f2{8} Kc8-b8{22} 16. a2-a4{14} Kb8-a8{28} 17. a4-a5{6} Rd8-e8{34} 18. Nb3-c5{6} Nh5-f6{6} 19. Qd1-b3{24} Re8-b8{10} 20. Bd3-b5{24} Qe7-d6{6} 21. Bf2-g3{6} Qd6-e7{6} 22. a5-a6{52} Be6-h3{10} 23. a6-b7{16} Rb8-b7{18} 24. Bb5-c6{10} Rh8-b8{6} 25. Bc6-b7{14} Rb8-b7{6} -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- help bot: (White) beginner: (Black) Game Played at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html View Recorded Game: http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?id=DM14332&game=Chess I want to know which were the wrong moves that beginner lost in just 25 Moves. Bye Sanny Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
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Date: 23 Jan 2008 19:28:58
From: help bot
Subject: Re: Please Analyze this Game between Help Bot & Beginner.
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On Jan 23, 6:55 pm, chipschap <[email protected] > wrote: > > Master: 2550 (5-10 min/move) > > This is quite a claim. Can you in any way back it up? This makes it > almost as strong as Hiarcs for the Palm with an ARM processor.... That number looks ridiculous to me. The GetClub program still has major problems in the endgame, and it still likes to sacrifice a piece for less than full compensation, so how is it going to reach the 2500+ level? A: It can't. But consider for a moment the conditions under which the human opponents play: the games last for many hours and it is not only possible, but likely that at some point there will be an unforced error. GC is gradually getting both faster and stronger, so even if we can dismiss the above claim as a gross exaggeration, there is a possibility that the top levels can score *above 2000* against humans, who may grow impatient or tired and play below their "normal" level. One reason that Sanny is constantly *guessing* at the strength is that so few players are willing to try their hand and report an independent estimate of their own. If a lot of rated players were to do that, we could perhaps average them out and see what that yields. The other issue is that there is no real time limit for the human players; they can't lose on time or be forced to blunder in time pressure; but this seems to be more than compensated for by other factors. -- help bot
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Date: 23 Jan 2008 15:55:27
From: chipschap
Subject: Re: Please Analyze this Game between Help Bot & Beginner.
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> Master: 2550 (5-10 min/move) This is quite a claim. Can you in any way back it up? This makes it almost as strong as Hiarcs for the Palm with an ARM processor....
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Date: 23 Jan 2008 10:06:20
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: Jester Vs Beginner
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On Jan 23, 10:22=A0pm, [email protected] (Andy Walker) wrote: > In article <[email protected].= com >, > tin Brown =A0<
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Date:
From: Martin Brown
Subject: Re: Jester Vs Beginner
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Date: 23 Jan 2008 17:22:39
From: Andy Walker
Subject: Re: Jester Vs Beginner
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In article <a6e2ab0f-95ce-41d5-b958-d5aa7553e36a@h11g2000prf.googlegroups.com >, tin Brown <
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Date: 23 Jan 2008 02:00:04
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: Please Analyze this Game between Help Bot & Beginner.
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> > This is just a bit assumption. > > A "bit assumption" ? More like 500 ELO points too optimistic. Beginner > mode is presently missing obvious mate in twos and regularly moving > its queen or king into harms way. That is not characteristic of ELO > 1600 play. > > Regards, > tin Brown- Game was a further improved today So now it will be able to see Mate in Two and play better moves. Can you win the Beginner Level? It is easy to do analysis of a game after it is played but much difficult to win by himself. Just play a few games and see if you can win the Beginner Level. With The improvements made today I again adjust the Rating of GetClub to new Ratings. The Rating of GetClub games as per there new strength would be. +100 to each level. Beginner: 1950 (5-20 seconds/move) Easy: 2150 (20-60 seconds/move) It Plays 10 times better than Beginner Level. Normal: 2350 (1-3 min/move) It Plays 10 times better than Easy Level Master: 2550 (5-10 min/move) It Plays 10 times better than Normal Level. So if you are playing with Beginner Level you can assume you are playing with 1950 elo player. So if you are rated lower than 1900 then you cannot win the Beginner Level easily. Bye Sanny Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
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Date: 23 Jan 2008 01:49:24
From: Sanny
Subject: Jester Vs Beginner
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Here is a tough game between Jester & Beginner Please analyze if you can find any mistakes with the game played by GetClub Beginner Level. Game Played between sanjay11 and beginner at GetClub.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jester: (White) beginner: (Black) Game Played at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html View Recorded Game: http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?id=DM14593&game=Chess -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- White -- Black (Jester) -- (beginner) 1. e2-e4{2} e7-e5{0} 2. f2-f4{6} d7-d5{0} 3. e4-d5{8} e5-e4{0} 4. d2-d3{6} Qd8-d5{8} 5. Nb1-c3{10} Bf8-b4{6} 6. Bc1-d2{10} Bb4-c3{6} 7. Bd2-c3{8} f7-f6{10} 8. Qd1-e2{12} e4-e3{8} 9. Qe2-e3{10} Ng8-e7{6} 10. Ng1-f3{10} Nb8-c6{8} 11. Bf1-e2{12} Bc8-g4{8} 12. h2-h3{10} Bg4-f5{6} 13. Ke1-g1{10} Ke8-c8{6} 14. Nf3-h4{14} Rh8-e8{10} 15. Be2-f3{12} Qd5-d6{14} 16. Bf3-c6{14} Qd6-c6{8} 17. Qe3-a7{16} Bf5-e6{12} 18. Ra1-e1{18} b7-b6{12} 19. Nh4-f3{16} Ne7-f5{14} 20. Re1-e4{12} Nf5-g3{8} 21. Nf3-d4{16} Rd8-d4{8} 22. Qa7-a6{14} Kc8-b8{6} 23. Re4-d4{12} Ng3-e2{6} 24. Kg1-h2{12} Ne2-d4{6} 25. Bc3-d4{12} Qc6-c2{6} 26. Rf1-e1{12} Qc2-c6{6} 27. Bd4-c3{20} h7-h6{8} 28. d3-d4{24} Re8-g8{6} 29. Re1-e3{12} Be6-d5{8} 30. g2-g3{10} g7-g6{6} 31. b2-b3{14} f6-f5{6} 32. Qa6-e2{12} h6-h5{12} 33. Qe2-e1{12} Kb8-a8{6} 34. Re3-e7{14} h5-h4{6} 35. g3-h4{16} Bd5-e4{14} 36. Qe1-g3{12} Be4-d5{6} 37. Qg3-e3{20} Qc6-d6{6} 38. Qe3-e5{16} Rg8-c8{6} 39. h4-h5{12} g6-h5{6} 40. Bc3-b4{14} Qd6-e5{8} 41. Re7-e5{12} Bd5-e4{8} 42. Bb4-e7{20} Rc8-g8{8} 43. Be7-g5{12} c7-c6{6} 44. Kh2-g3{12} b6-b5{8} 45. Kg3-h4{32} Rg8-h8{6} 46. Bg5-f6{12} Rh8-h7{8} 47. Kh4-g5{10} h5-h4{8} 48. Re5-e7{14} Rh7-e7{6} 49. Bf6-e7{12} Ka8-b8{8} 50. Kg5-h4{12} Be4-g2{8} 51. a2-a4{14} b5-a4{6} 52. b3-a4{26} Kb8-b7{8} 53. Kh4-g3{10} Bg2-e4{6} 54. h3-h4{10} Kb7-a7{6} 55. h4-h5{10} Ka7-a8{6} 56. h5-h6{10} c6-c5{6} 57. Be7-c5{10} Ka8-b7{24} 58. h6-h7{10} Be4-c6{8} 59. a4-a5{12} Kb7-a8{6} 60. a5-a6{12} Ka8-b8{8} 61. Qh7-h8{Q}{12} Kb8-c7{12} 62. Qh8-f6{14} Bc6-a8{6} 63. Qf6-d6{12} Kc7-c8{10} -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jester: (White) beginner: (Black) Game Played at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html View Recorded Game: http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?id=DM14593&game=Chess Initially Jester was 2 pawns up but GetClub played very good moves and took back one pawn. But in end game Jester was able to kill pawns by its King and get Queen to Check Mate in 64 Moves. Bye Sanny Play Chess at:http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
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Date:
From: Martin Brown
Subject: Re: Please Analyze this Game between Help Bot & Beginner.
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Date: 22 Jan 2008 21:40:06
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: Please Analyze this Game between Help Bot & Beginner.
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> =A0 The higher levels, which I rarely play now, > are even better. =A0Because there is no real > time limit on the human player, it is no > easy matter to determine an approximate > rating, but it would not surprise me if the > Master level is now over 2000 USCF. > Here is the Rating for each level The Rating of GetClub games as per there new strength would be. Beginner: 1850 (5-20 seconds/move) Easy: 2050 (20-60 seconds/move) It Plays 10 times better than Beginner Level. Normal: 2250 (1-3 min/move) It Plays 10 times better than Easy Level Master: 2450 (5-10 min/move) It Plays 10 times better than Normal Level. This is just a bit assumption. Have a match with Fritz and let me know if I am correct. Bye Sanny Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
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Date: 22 Jan 2008 13:02:51
From: help bot
Subject: Re: Please Analyze this Game between Help Bot & Beginner.
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On Jan 22, 1:55 pm, Sanny <[email protected] > wrote: > And I think now even Taylor Kingston can not beat the Master Level. > May be he may win Master Level in 1/4 times. One day I remember Taylor > Kingston said Master Level will never be able to beat him. Today I > think the Time has Come when Master Level can beat Taylor Kingston. > That is only because the GetClub Chess has improved a lot. I think TK is too worried about protecting his 50-0 record to risk it. If he does play, it will be under some other moniker, or else he will use Fritz to ensure that no embarrassing loss spoils his perfect-looking numbers; I say perfect-looking because as we all know, the program occasionally "defeated" everyone, and the result now seen on the site is what Sanny has decided, or negotiated with the "losers". Take "help bot", for instance; just recently a game was "given" to the GetClub program in which it could not mate with a King and Rook; that is on top of all the games where it was decided that I "must have" clicked the "resigns" button, plus the ones where I actually did resign. The main thing is to somehow get these people to stop assuming that the program is just as bad as it used to be; to get them to log on and get their butts kicked, after which of course they will go silent and stop their moaning and groaning. ; >D -- help bot
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Date: 22 Jan 2008 12:53:16
From: help bot
Subject: Re: Please Analyze this Game between Help Bot & Beginner.
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On Jan 22, 1:28 pm, "[email protected]" <[email protected] > wrote: > It's so predictable. Sanny announces new and fabulous playing > strength improvements (he even asked again if Fritz could beat > "Master" level on GetClub). Then Sanny posts a game asking what went > wrong, he'd like to fix it. Then (still to come in this cycle) Sanny > will say the mistake has been corrected and now GetClub cannot be > defeated.... on and on. This has been literally years now! So, you can't rely on what Sanny says; you have to do your own "research". My early "research" had me thinking the GetClub program had reincarnated me as Paul Morphy! Every game allowed for a multitude of sacrifices-- which always worked. But lately the program has been getting tougher and tougher, except when Sanny decides to do another speed-up. In spite of all the weaknesses, and the fact that it can't win a K & R vs. K ending, you may find the program to be somewhere near the Class B level these days, which is a huge improvement from the old days. The higher levels, which I rarely play now, are even better. Because there is no real time limit on the human player, it is no easy matter to determine an approximate rating, but it would not surprise me if the Master level is now over 2000 USCF. -- help bot
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Date: 22 Jan 2008 10:55:08
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: Please Analyze this Game between Help Bot & Beginner.
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On Jan 22, 11:28=A0pm, "[email protected]" <[email protected] > wrote: > It's so predictable. =A0Sanny announces new and fabulous playing > strength improvements (he even asked again if Fritz could beat > "Master" level onGetClub). =A0Then Sanny posts a game asking what went > wrong, he'd like to fix it. =A0Then (still to come in this cycle) Sanny > will say the mistake has been corrected and nowGetClubcannot be > defeated.... on and on. =A0This has been literally years now! --- >This has been literally years now! The GetClub Chess is Just 17 months old. So How many years back did you heard about GetClub Chess? I am only pointing those games where GetClub Loose. You can see that now no one dares to play with Easy & Normal Level. Everyone is playing with Beginner Level which makes moves in 5-10 seconds. While the players are thinking for 20-30 seconds. So despite improvements what can I do if everyone just play with Beginner Level instead of higher levels.. Play with Easy/Normal & Master Level and they will beat you in 9/10 games. Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html Earlier Help Bot was even unbeatable by Master Level. But now even Beginner Level has beaten Help Bot 3-4 times. And ask him if he can win the Easy & Normal Levels anymore. Only 1 person Mr Phil was able to beat Easy Level recently, Rest all are afraid to play with Easy & Normal Level. They think for 20-40 seconds but play very tough moves. Here is a brief History of GetClub Chess. Jun 2006 : It played First Move in 1 hour. Dec 2006: It played a bit sensible moves (10 min/ move) Apr 2007: It played all legal moves (2/3 min per move) Nov 2007: It started playing good games (20 sec per move ) Jan 2008: It is playing very good moves (6-10 sec per move) So you can see how GetClub Chess has been improving. So am I wrong in any way. And today everyone is afraid of Easy & Normal Levels. And I think now even Taylor Kingston can not beat the Master Level. May be he may win Master Level in 1/4 times. One day I remember Taylor Kingston said Master Level will never be able to beat him. Today I think the Time has Come when Master Level can beat Taylor Kingston. That is only because the GetClub Chess has improved a lot. Bye Sanny Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
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Date: 22 Jan 2008 10:28:25
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Please Analyze this Game between Help Bot & Beginner.
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It's so predictable. Sanny announces new and fabulous playing strength improvements (he even asked again if Fritz could beat "Master" level on GetClub). Then Sanny posts a game asking what went wrong, he'd like to fix it. Then (still to come in this cycle) Sanny will say the mistake has been corrected and now GetClub cannot be defeated.... on and on. This has been literally years now!
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Date: 22 Jan 2008 03:21:45
From: help bot
Subject: Re: Please Analyze this Game between Help Bot & Beginner.
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On Jan 22, 3:09 am, Bjoern <[email protected] > wrote: > > King Rook - King is always a Win So I gave Beginner a Win. > > Giving it the win is ridiculous, exactly because it does not know how to > win. I'm convinced it can't win, which is why I played on. Another matter is, why does the program stop making moves? It is eerily akin to there being a Wizard-of-Oz behind the curtain, pulling levers. When the wiz detects a situation in which his creation cannot make headway, he freezes up, and refuses to move. What's up with that? I mean, am I playing a Java-machine, or a man- machine combination, an android? > > The game understand 3-Fold repetition. If the same Moves are made by > > Black & White for 3 times it results in a draw. I think the Computer > > had changed the Move as it was in Advantage. > > I suspect you have implemented it incorrectly, it is not really about > the same moves being made. It is about the same position occuring 3 > times at any point in the game (or being about to occur, but let's say > it would be enough to make sure the game recognises that the same > position has occured 3 times (and executing such a move on the Java > board would be a way of saying "okay, I would make this move and claim > the draw). The thing to make sure in the programming is that the > position can occur a lot of moves apart (say first time move 100, then > on move 120, then on move 148) and that it is not necessarily created by > the same move, e.g. if white has his rook on c2 and a king on a1, black > has his king on e5, then the following is a threefold repetiotion: > 1.Rb2 Kf5 (first occurence of the position) > 2.Kb1 Ke6 > 3.Kc2 Ke5 > 4.Kb3 Kf5 > 5.Ka2 Kf6 > 6.Ka1 Kf5 (second occurence of the position) > 7.Ka2 Ke5 > 8.Kb3 Kf5 > 9.Kc3 Ke5 > 10.Kc2 Ke6 > 11.Kb1 Kf5 > 12.Ka1 (not an occurence, because the move rights are the wrong way around) > 12...Kf6 > 13.Kb1 Ke6 > 14.Ka1 > and now black can claim a draw if he declares that he intends to play > 14...Kf5. At my local chess club, there was a game in which one player got irate when, he said, the position had been repeated three times, but he was no longer keeping score because of time pressure and thus, his claim could not be verified. The TD remained silent, yet I wondered if the fact that there *was* an eye-witness could be relevant; a third party was sitting at the table in question, watching the game the whole time. On the other hand, he may have been watching the game because he was friends with the guy who went on to win, so maybe it would have been naive to think he would "testify" to any threefold repetition. (He, too, remained silent.) -- help bot
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Date: 21 Jan 2008 11:45:37
From: help bot
Subject: Re: Please Analyze this Game between Help Bot & Beginner.
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On Jan 21, 7:32 am, tin Brown <
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Date:
From: Martin Brown
Subject: Re: Please Analyze this Game between Help Bot & Beginner.
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Date: 20 Jan 2008 09:39:29
From: help bot
Subject: Re: Please Analyze this Game between Help Bot & Beginner.
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On Jan 20, 1:40 am, Sanny <[email protected] > wrote: > > In order to determine the last "playable position", > > I could run this through Fritz. But here's a clue: > > count up the number of times the Beginner level > > moved its Queen (over and over and over). Apart > > from saving the Queen from being taken, those > > were all wasted tempos which the opponent can > > use to build up an attack. > > Beginner moved its queen only 4 times in this game. Getting checkmated around move 25, that looks like a lot of Queen moves to me. > Out of Which First It Played Q-d6 on 6th move.and when attacked by > Bishop it played Queen to Q-e7 on 8th Move. > > After that it played Queen on 20th move to Q-d6 to save Knight and > then took Back Queen to Q-e7 as it was again threathened by Bishop. > > So Out of 4 times Queen was Moved 2 times it played for Saving its > Queen, And one time it played to save Rook. So It was only in 6th Move > Q-d6 was played without any attack. But all of these moves were unnecessary, since for example, the program ought to have been developing its minor pieces and castling, not playing around with the Queen. > Do you think 6. .... Qd6 was wrong? Yes. The Queen belongs on d8-- right where she stands on move one. > Why what was then the correct move? After my B-g5, a logical response would be ...B-e7, intending to castle king-side next. > > In this kind of position, no unguarded entry square > > exists on the open e-file, so the heavy pieces > > (Rooks and Queens) will not get traded. Instead, > > each side can attack the enemy King, willy-nillly. > > Should Black Go for an Attack on White King instead of putting Rooks & > Queen on e file? Yes. In this kind of position, all the entry points on the e-file are guarded by minor pieces (Knights and Bishops), so it is not possible to penetrate with a Rook or Queen (unless they are tripled on the file, and an exchange sacrifice is made). > Yes in King-Rook ending it is incapable of giving Check Mate. The > reasion is it thinks till 10 depth. Incase it do not find a Mate in 10 > then all moves are given equal benefit. Since there is nothing the > King- Rook is gaining by killing any piece/pawn in 10 moves. Since all > moves has equal point it is unable to find Mate and plays King & Rook > randomly. Perhaps, but I note a distinct tendency for the program to play its King toward the corners, as if worried about King-safety. This is a H-U-G-E weakness in the endgame. > For that End Game Tables are there they are 10MB-50MB Big. If I use > End Game Tables It will take an hour to download the Chess game. So > Thats the reasion It plays badly in King-Rook Ending. There is no need for endgame table-bases here; all that is needed is for the program to be taught to maximize its mobility, or control of squares, while reducing the opponent's as much as possible (barring stalemate). Old table-top computers from the 1980s, like the Fidelity Chess Challenger for instance, had this down pat in spite of very limited hardware resources and speed. After checkmate and stalemate, next in importance comes material, and then *mobility*. Generally, you give a tiny bonus for each square attacked by your own men, and a tiny penalty for each square the opponent's men control. Add it all up and the side with greater mobility nets the higher position score, plus the possible moves can be ranked when otherwise everything is a dead tie. > > As I've noticed has happened before, somebody > > "intervened" on the program's behalf, ending the > > game and handing the program a win it apparently > > could not earn on its own. > > Yes there was an error which was removed. Since the game played > arround 200 Moves The Largest number of Moves Set at GetClub. That > error was Removed by Changing highest setting to 1000 Moves. So now > you can play a game for upto 500 Moves. Sounds like fun. (Groan) > > These "freebies", along with the many cases > > in which it is claimed that the human "must have > > clicked the resigns button", result in an inflated > > rating for the program, and the reverse for its > > hapless victims. > > King Rook - King is always a Win So I gave Beginner a Win. My point, exactly! You "give" it a win. How often have you "given" the human players such wins, for free and which they could never have earned legitimately? In my experience, unfinished games are normally given the ax-- erased, deleted, and so it goes. > > Another issue is the fact that there is *still* no > > way for the human player to claim a draw, no > > "draw" button or detection of threefold repetition > > of position, nothing. In the game I mentioned > > above, I had a threefold repetition, but noticed > The game understand 3-Fold repetition. If the same Moves are made by > Black & White for 3 times it results in a draw. I think the Computer > had changed the Move as it was in Advantage. Perhaps. Maybe it was a two-and-a-half fold repetition, and I miscounted. The actual rule states that the draw claim is made *before* executing the move which *would result* in the position being repeated for the third time, the same side on-move, and all possible moves being identical (en passant, castling). So the "draw" button would technically need to appear after two repetitions, giving the human the *option*, but not the obligation, to make a draw claim. If you automatically enforce a draw, you may ensnare an unwitting human player who had no intention of making the claim (though I feel no sympathy for losers who cannot make progress and who instead butt heads with a mindless computer, ad infinitum). -- help bot
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Date: 19 Jan 2008 22:40:00
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: Please Analyze this Game between Help Bot & Beginner.
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> =A0 In order to determine the last "playable position", > I could run this through Fritz. =A0But here's a clue: > count up the number of times the Beginner level > moved its Queen (over and over and over). =A0Apart > from saving the Queen from being taken, those > were all wasted tempos which the opponent can > use to build up an attack. Beginner moved its queen only 4 times in this game. Out of Which First It Played Q-d6 on 6th move.and when attacked by Bishop it played Queen to Q-e7 on 8th Move. After that it played Queen on 20th move to Q-d6 to save Knight and then took Back Queen to Q-e7 as it was again threathened by Bishop. So Out of 4 times Queen was Moved 2 times it played for Saving its Queen, And one time it played to save Rook. So It was only in 6th Move Q-d6 was played without any attack. Do you think 6. .... Qd6 was wrong? Why what was then the correct move? Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html > =A0 In this kind of position, no unguarded entry square > exists on the open e-file, so the heavy pieces > (Rooks and Queens) will not get traded. =A0Instead, > each side can attack the enemy King, willy-nillly. > Should Black Go for an Attack on White King instead of putting Rooks & Queen on e file? > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > > =A0 In another recent game, I was outplayed by the > Beginner level and the best I could do was get to > King versus King and Rook. =A0Though I tried > repeatedly to get the program to move, even > logging off and then back on at various times, it > just sat there, with its King in the corner, and the > Rook nearby. =A0It seems to me that the program > is incapable of winning this elementary ending, > because of a flaw in the program whereby it > keeps its own King in or near the corner. Yes in King-Rook ending it is incapable of giving Check Mate. The reasion is it thinks till 10 depth. Incase it do not find a Mate in 10 then all moves are given equal benefit. Since there is nothing the King- Rook is gaining by killing any piece/pawn in 10 moves. Since all moves has equal point it is unable to find Mate and plays King & Rook randomly. For that End Game Tables are there they are 10MB-50MB Big. If I use End Game Tables It will take an hour to download the Chess game. So Thats the reasion It plays badly in King-Rook Ending. Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html > =A0 As I've noticed has happened before, somebody > "intervened" on the program's behalf, ending the > game and handing the program a win it apparently > could not earn on its own. Yes there was an error which was removed. Since the game played arround 200 Moves The Largest number of Moves Set at GetClub. That error was Removed by Changing highest setting to 1000 Moves. So now you can play a game for upto 500 Moves. Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html > > =A0 These "freebies", along with the many cases > in which it is claimed that the human "must have > clicked the resigns button", result in an inflated > rating for the program, and the reverse for its > hapless victims. King Rook - King is always a Win So I gave Beginner a Win. > =A0 Another issue is the fact that there is *still* no > way for the human player to claim a draw, no > "draw" button or detection of threefold repetition > of position, nothing. =A0In the game I mentioned > above, I had a threefold repetition, but noticed The game understand 3-Fold repetition. If the same Moves are made by Black & White for 3 times it results in a draw. I think the Computer had changed the Move as it was in Advantage. Bye Sanny Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
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Date: 22 Jan 2008 09:09:02
From: Bjoern
Subject: Re: Please Analyze this Game between Help Bot & Beginner.
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Sanny wrote: > Yes in King-Rook ending it is incapable of giving Check Mate. The > reasion is it thinks till 10 depth. Incase it do not find a Mate in 10 > then all moves are given equal benefit. Since there is nothing the > King- Rook is gaining by killing any piece/pawn in 10 moves. Since all > moves has equal point it is unable to find Mate and plays King & Rook > randomly. > > For that End Game Tables are there they are 10MB-50MB Big. If I use > End Game Tables It will take an hour to download the Chess game. So > Thats the reasion It plays badly in King-Rook Ending. ... > King Rook - King is always a Win So I gave Beginner a Win. Giving it the win is ridiculous, exactly because it does not know how to win. There's the 50 move rule (after 50 moves in which no pawn was moved or piece captured, one or the other player can claim a draw), then there's the rule about not trying to win by normal means and then there's the 3-fold repetition rule. As pointed out by others there are many ways of creating rules that the program follows in KR-K to make sure it plays that and other easy endgames correctly. >> Another issue is the fact that there is *still* no >>way for the human player to claim a draw, no >>"draw" button or detection of threefold repetition >>of position, nothing. In the game I mentioned >>above, I had a threefold repetition, but noticed > > > > The game understand 3-Fold repetition. If the same Moves are made by > Black & White for 3 times it results in a draw. I think the Computer > had changed the Move as it was in Advantage. I suspect you have implemented it incorrectly, it is not really about the same moves being made. It is about the same position occuring 3 times at any point in the game (or being about to occur, but let's say it would be enough to make sure the game recognises that the same position has occured 3 times (and executing such a move on the Java board would be a way of saying "okay, I would make this move and claim the draw). The thing to make sure in the programming is that the position can occur a lot of moves apart (say first time move 100, then on move 120, then on move 148) and that it is not necessarily created by the same move, e.g. if white has his rook on c2 and a king on a1, black has his king on e5, then the following is a threefold repetiotion: 1.Rb2 Kf5 (first occurence of the position) 2.Kb1 Ke6 3.Kc2 Ke5 4.Kb3 Kf5 5.Ka2 Kf6 6.Ka1 Kf5 (second occurence of the position) 7.Ka2 Ke5 8.Kb3 Kf5 9.Kc3 Ke5 10.Kc2 Ke6 11.Kb1 Kf5 12.Ka1 (not an occurence, because the move rights are the wrong way around) 12...Kf6 13.Kb1 Ke6 14.Ka1 and now black can claim a draw if he declares that he intends to play 14...Kf5.
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Date: 19 Jan 2008 12:53:00
From: help bot
Subject: Re: Please Analyze this Game between Help Bot & Beginner.
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On Jan 19, 10:43 am, Sanny <[email protected] > wrote: > Game Played between help bot and beginner at GetClub.com > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > help bot: (White) > beginner: (Black) > Game Played at:http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html > View Recorded Game:http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?id=DM14332&game=Chess > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > White -- Black > (help bot) -- (beginner) > > 1. e2-e3{4} e7-e5{0} > 2. d2-d4{4} e5-d4{6} > 3. e3-d4{2} d7-d5{10} > 4. Bf1-d3{6} Nb8-c6{8} > 5. c2-c3{8} Ng8-f6{10} > 6. Bc1-g5{6} Qd8-d6{10} > 7. Ng1-e2{12} h7-h6{6} > 8. Bg5-f4{8} Qd6-e7{6} > 9. Ke1-g1{6} Bc8-g4{10} > 10. f2-f3{12} Bg4-e6{6} > 11. Rf1-e1{8} g7-g5{8} > 12. Bf4-g3{22} Ke8-c8{6} > 13. Nb1-d2{16} Bf8-g7{6} > 14. Nd2-b3{10} Nf6-h5{6} > 15. Bg3-f2{8} Kc8-b8{22} > 16. a2-a4{14} Kb8-a8{28} > 17. a4-a5{6} Rd8-e8{34} > 18. Nb3-c5{6} Nh5-f6{6} > 19. Qd1-b3{24} Re8-b8{10} > 20. Bd3-b5{24} Qe7-d6{6} > 21. Bf2-g3{6} Qd6-e7{6} > 22. a5-a6{52} Be6-h3{10} > 23. a6-b7{16} Rb8-b7{18} > 24. Bb5-c6{10} Rh8-b8{6} > 25. Bc6-b7{14} Rb8-b7{6} > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > help bot: (White) > beginner: (Black) > Game Played at:http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html > View Recorded Game:http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?id=DM14332&game=Chess > > I want to know which were the wrong moves that beginner lost in just > 25 Moves. In order to determine the last "playable position", I could run this through Fritz. But here's a clue: count up the number of times the Beginner level moved its Queen (over and over and over). Apart from saving the Queen from being taken, those were all wasted tempos which the opponent can use to build up an attack. In this kind of position, no unguarded entry square exists on the open e-file, so the heavy pieces (Rooks and Queens) will not get traded. Instead, each side can attack the enemy King, willy-nillly. ----------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------- In another recent game, I was outplayed by the Beginner level and the best I could do was get to King versus King and Rook. Though I tried repeatedly to get the program to move, even logging off and then back on at various times, it just sat there, with its King in the corner, and the Rook nearby. It seems to me that the program is incapable of winning this elementary ending, because of a flaw in the program whereby it keeps its own King in or near the corner. As I've noticed has happened before, somebody "intervened" on the program's behalf, ending the game and handing the program a win it apparently could not earn on its own. These "freebies", along with the many cases in which it is claimed that the human "must have clicked the resigns button", result in an inflated rating for the program, and the reverse for its hapless victims. Another issue is the fact that there is *still* no way for the human player to claim a draw, no "draw" button or detection of threefold repetition of position, nothing. In the game I mentioned above, I had a threefold repetition, but noticed that you *still* refuse to accept the existence of draws! How long has it been now... perhaps a year or more, since their existence was first pointed out? Win, loss, draw... count 'em: 3! Three possible outcomes in a game of chess. (I am ignoring double forfeits, and games in which both sides checkmate one another at precisely the same time... ?!!?!!) -- hep blot
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