Oppsite-side castling

Main

Date: 08 Oct 2005 07:42:09
From: The Man Behind The Curtain
Subject: Oppsite-side castling

Can someone recommend some good opening systems if one likes to castle
opposite one's opponent--

As White?

As Black?

John

--

Von Herzen, moge es wieder zu Herzen gehen. --Beethoven

Date: 15 Oct 2005 17:23:47
From: Nick
Subject: Re: Oppsite-side castling

David Richerby wrote:
> Ray Gordon <[email protected]> wrote:
> > David Richerby wrote:
> >> The Saemisch king's Indian often gives situations where White can
> >> castle fairly late and castle either way with roughly equal merit.
> >> I can't think of any other system that has this property.
> >
> > Most open sicilians offer this as well.
>
> Good point. I wouldn't say `most' but certainly `many'.
>
> I guess the difference between this and the Saemisch is that White
> usually commits himself to castling one way or the other fairly
> early in the Sicilian but the decision can be delayed much longer
> in the Saemisch KID.

That's because Open Sicilian Defence positions have open centres,
impelling a rather early castling decision, while Saemisch King's
Indian positions tend to have closed centres (the central pawn
structure has become fixed), allowing a castling decision to
be postponed. In short, it's usually more dangerous for White
to stay uncastled for a long time in an Open Sicilian than in
a Saemisch King's Indian position.

--Nick

Date: 12 Oct 2005 10:47:10
From: David Richerby
Subject: Re: Oppsite-side castling

The Man Behind The Curtain <[email protected] > wrote:
> Can someone recommend some good opening systems if one likes to castle
> opposite one's opponent--

As an aside, one of Paul Keres and Alexander Kotov has written that he
used to practise playing attacking chess by playing games in which he
would agree with the opponent that they would castle on opposite sides and
see who could checkmate first.

Dave.

--
David Richerby Swiss Nuclear Smokes (TM): it's like
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ a pack of cigarettes that's made of
atoms but it's made in Switzerland!

Date: 12 Oct 2005 05:56:11
From: anthony mee
Subject: Re: Oppsite-side castling

You've had quiet some replies already. But somethings I haven't seen amongst
them are (with White) the Ruy Lopez exchange, Nimzo Indian classic, centre
counter and several Queen pawn openings. With Black: Albin's Gambit, against
the Trompovsky, in certain circumstances in the Scandinavian, I've even seen
in the Pirc (by a non-Pirc player, but with a win!).
Strategy is important - don't be behind in development to go long, it's nice
if your opponent has figures in the way of your pawn-push! It's a good sign
if the 'd' line is open, half-open or openable (quiet important this!).
And have fun!
Anthony
"The Man Behind The Curtain" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Can someone recommend some good opening systems if one likes to castle
> opposite one's opponent--
>
> As White?
>
> As Black?
>
>
>
> John
>
> --
>
>
> Von Herzen, moge es wieder zu Herzen gehen. --Beethoven
>

Date: 12 Oct 2005 04:06:19
From: Ray Gordon
Subject: Re: Oppsite-side castling

> You've had quiet some replies already. But somethings I haven't seen
> amongst them are (with White) the Ruy Lopez exchange, Nimzo Indian
> classic, centre counter and several Queen pawn openings. With Black:
> Albin's Gambit, against the Trompovsky, in certain circumstances in the
> Scandinavian, I've even seen in the Pirc (by a non-Pirc player, but with a
> win!).

0-0-0 is very common in the Pirc if White gets too aggressive with his
h-pawn and plays a Be3 system.

Date: 09 Oct 2005 19:10:26
From: Amarande
Subject: Re: Oppsite-side castling

The Man Behind The Curtain wrote:
> Can someone recommend some good opening systems if one likes to castle
> opposite one's opponent--

Naturally this cannot really be forced.

However there are a number of openings where O-O-O, whether typical or
not, is still a sound choice, and even has reasons to suggest it, while
it is quite likely that the opponent will O-O. Let's see -

> As White?

Steinitz (the one with d3 by White, as opposed to 3 ... d6) Ruy Lopez
very often leads to Q-side castling by White, but O-O is still standard
for Black.

Certain QGD variations, as well. (viz. e.g., Tarrasch-Von Scheve,
Leipzig 1894)

> As Black?

I have managed rather successfully to use O-O-O in the French Advance
variation. The preferred initial line is something like this -

1 e4 e6 2 d4 d5 3 e5 c5 4 c3 Nc6 5 Nf3 cxd4! (see below) 6 cxd4 Qb6, etc.

5 ... cxd4! is better here IMO (rather than first 5 ... Qb6), and it is
even more essential to ensure this exchange goes correctly if Black
wants to castle long.

Generally speaking, there can be two resolutions of the c5-d4 lever tension:

A. Black exchanges on d4, and White recaptures with the Pawn.

B. White exchanges dxc5, or recaptures with a piece when Black exchanges
at d4.

Case A is clearly better for Black; White's d4 is an irretrievably weak
point, unsupported and unsupportable by a Pawn. An exchange on c3 does
not help as the c3 pawn is an even worse weakness after bxc3, being on
an open file in addition to everything (and c4 is a lovely outpost for
Black's Knights and, moreover the QB who usually has no good spot).

Case B, on the other hand, is generally better for White. Unlike the d4
pawn in case A, which is a patently weak case as its only real purpose
in life is to support e5, the e5 pawn, even unsupported (and it can be
supported by f4 if need be), is a strength; it produces a serious
cramping effect on the Black position, and in addition prevents ... e5,
which is the only Pawn challenge possible to White's exploiting the
vacation on d4 as a useful centralization and pivot point. White need
only worry of an exchange at d4 that forces a Pawn recapture (as this
reverts to case A). This means case B is clearly better for Black, even
before we consider the castling issue.

From the standpoint of castling, it is clear to me some more things, as
well -

* In neither case is O-O optimal for Black. He castles on the side on
which his opponent is strong, and in both cases, the e5 pawn prevents
Black from having the best defender available (Nf6), while White has the
potent d3-h7 diagonal open allowing for classical sacrifices. In both
cases, Black's light squared Bishop is useless in the defense, too,
meaning White can quite easily obtain a local force superiority on the K
wing (the essential conditions for successful attack).

* On the other hand, when we look at O-O-O, the case for not only O-O-O
in case A, but also A vs. B is enhanced.

In case A, O-O-O is pretty much ironclad safe for Black; the c-file is
full open, but a single line does not a successful attack make (unless
defensive forces are congested, but Black's strength points Queenward),
and there is no way, if Black's a and b pawns are unmoved, for White to
force open any additional lines (3v3 can open a file by force, but 2v2
cannot). Moreover, the light squared Bishop still may not always be
useful for offense, but now it is a pillar of defensive strength as it
is on the right side of the Pawns.

Furthermore, White's Bishops become quite impotent; e2-a6 is not a
useful diagonal in the sense of d3-h7, and the dark squared Bishop -
limited at best in K-side action (since c1-h6 is the only slightly
useful diagonal there) lacks any semblance of a good diagonal as the
pawns at d4 and e5 choke off the lines.

Black, on the other hand, has possibilities to open lines
advantageously; the chief way to do this is to play ... f6 and continue
to pressure e5 (which is hard to fully guard if Black also keeps the
pressure on d4), until White is forced to play exf6 (shades of the
attack at e4 in Tarrasch-Von Scheve). This opens both d6-h2, and the
g-file ... This is assuming White plays O-O, which is usually the case
(if White even castles at all; often White must play Kf1 in the Advance).

In case B, O-O-O is much more airy. White can play c4 and exchange,
which means the diagonals e3-a7, f3-b7, and the c and d files are all
pried wide open. Even if the cramping e5 falls now, White has far more
open lines than Black gets, and opposite-side castling situations are
virtually always race situations.

Certainly, even if it does not in the end lead to winning advantages for
Black, O-O-O is still quite sound in case A, and avoids a lot of the
tactical issues that Black often must wrestle with in the French, while
giving some real attacking possibilities ...

Date: 09 Oct 2005 00:39:20
From:
Subject: Re: Oppsite-side castling

The Man Behind The Curtain wrote:
> Can someone recommend some good opening systems if one likes to castle
> opposite one's opponent--
>
> As White?
>
d4, and then several systems are possible
an interesting one for gambiteers is: Nf6 g4?! Nxg4
and long castling

> As Black?

you cant expect always to be able to castle long imho if
you want to play well against all possible white openings;
but correct me if i'm wrong..
>
>
>
> John
>

Date: 08 Oct 2005 08:37:40
From:
Subject: Re: Oppsite-side castling

The Man Behind The Curtain wrote:
> Can someone recommend some good opening systems if one likes to castle
> opposite one's opponent--

There is no way to force one's opponent into such openings, but there
are several lines where opposite-side castling is not unusual. A few
that come to mind off the top of my head:

Q-side castling by White:

Various lines of the Sicilian, including:
Dragon variation, Yugoslav Attack: 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4
Nf6 5.Nc3 g6 6.Be3 Bg7 7.f3 0-0 8.Qd2 Nc6 9.0-0-0 or 9.Bc4 Bd7 10.0-0-0
Richter-Rauzer variation: 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6
5.Nc3 d6 6.Bg5 e6 7.Qd2 Be7 8.0-0-0 0-0
Several lines of the Pirc Defense (1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6) often
involve similar opposite wing castling, after Bc1-e3 or Bc1-g5,
followed by Qd1-d2 and 0-0-0.
Queen's Gambit Declined, Exchange variation: 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3
Nf6 4.cxd5 exd5 5.Bg5 c6 6.Qc2 Be7 7.e3 Nbd7 8.Bd3 0-0 9.Nf3 (or Ne2)
Re8 10.0-0-0

Q-side castling by Black:

Caro-Kann: 1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 dxe4 4.Nxe4 Nf6 5.Nxf6+ gxf6 6.c3
Bf5 7.Nf3 Qc7 8.g3 Nd7 9.Bg2 e6 10.0-0 0-0-0
QGD, Tarrasch Defense, Von Henig-Schara Gambit: 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3
c5 4.cxd5 cxd4 5.Qa4+ Bd7 6.Qxd4 exd5 7.Qxd5 Nc6 8.Nf3 Nf6 9.Qd1 Bc5
10.e3 Qe7 11.Be2 0-0-0 12.0-0

This is just a sampling of those familiar to me; I'm sure you can
find others with a bit of research. Keep in mind that opposite-side
castling usually requires energetic play by both sides -- as Nathan
Bedford Forrest said, it's oten a question of "who gets there firstest
with the mostest."

Date: 10 Oct 2005 08:40:20
From: David Richerby
Subject: Re: Oppsite-side castling

Taylor Kingston <[email protected] > wrote:
> The Man Behind The Curtain wrote:
>> Can someone recommend some good opening systems if one likes to castle
>> opposite one's opponent--
>
> There is no way to force one's opponent into such openings, but there
> are several lines where opposite-side castling is not unusual. A few
> that come to mind off the top of my head:
>
> Q-side castling by White:
>
> Various lines of the Sicilian, [...]
> Several lines of the Pirc Defense [...]
> Queen's Gambit Declined, Exchange variation [...]

The Saemisch king's Indian often gives situations where White can castle
fairly late and castle either way with roughly equal merit. I can't think
of any other system that has this property.

Dave.

--
David Richerby Disposable Crystal Cheese (TM):
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ it's like a brick of cheese but it's
completely transparent and you never
have to clean it!

Date: 10 Oct 2005 17:10:12
From: Ray Gordon
Subject: Re: Oppsite-side castling

>> Various lines of the Sicilian, [...]
>> Several lines of the Pirc Defense [...]
>> Queen's Gambit Declined, Exchange variation [...]
>
> The Saemisch king's Indian often gives situations where White can castle
> fairly late and castle either way with roughly equal merit. I can't think
> of any other system that has this property.

Most open sicilians offer this as well.

Date: 11 Oct 2005 09:12:00
From: David Richerby
Subject: Re: Oppsite-side castling

Ray Gordon <[email protected] > wrote:
> David Richerby wrote:
>> The Saemisch king's Indian often gives situations where White can
>> castle fairly late and castle either way with roughly equal merit. I
>> can't think of any other system that has this property.
>
> Most open sicilians offer this as well.

Good point. I wouldn't say `most' but certainly `many'.

I guess the difference between this and the Saemisch is that White usually
commits himself to castling one way or the other fairly early in the
Sicilian but the decision can be delayed much longer in the Saemisch KID.

Dave.

--
David Richerby Salted Cheese (TM): it's like a brick
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ of cheese but it's covered in salt!

Date: 11 Oct 2005 22:04:25
From: Ray Gordon
Subject: Re: Oppsite-side castling

>> Most open sicilians offer this as well.
>
> Good point. I wouldn't say `most' but certainly `many'.

Also the Classical French, but that's only if Black complies for the first
six moves.

> I guess the difference between this and the Saemisch is that White usually
> commits himself to castling one way or the other fairly early in the
> Sicilian but the decision can be delayed much longer in the Saemisch KID.

Who says White castles early in the Sicilian? Usually he can delay it to
move 8-12 very easily. I would hardly call that "early."