Newbie: Defensive player possible?

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Date: 19 Oct 2006 19:25:19
From: General Fear
Subject: Newbie: Defensive player possible?

I am somewhat new to chess.

Is it possible play defensively? What I wanted to try is to build an
air tight defense. Then gain a material advantage. Trade the other guy
down. Then push the pawn thru and promote them. If I can not do that,
then I want to have an air tight defense to the end and run down the
clock and win on time.

Is the above possible? If so, what type of opening must I use? What
skills sets do I need for a middle game and end game.

Date: 20 Oct 2006 04:35:12
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Newbie: Defensive player possible?

General Fear wrote:
> I am somewhat new to chess.
>
> Is it possible play defensively? What I wanted to try is to build an
> air tight defense. Then gain a material advantage. Trade the other guy
> down. Then push the pawn thru and promote them. If I can not do that,
> then I want to have an air tight defense to the end and run down the
> clock and win on time.
>
> Is the above possible? If so, what type of opening must I use? What
> skills sets do I need for a middle game and end game.

"Somewhat New to Chess":

It's a bad idea to do what you said. You should read a basic chess
strategy book, really basic. Something like Fred Reinfeld's "The
Complete Chess Course". This wil teach you the real basics of chess
strategy. Also, do Chess Tactics Server every day:

http://chess.emrald.net/index.php

You are trying to DEFINE your style, but you have not played enough
games (being 'somewhat new to chess') to have your style defined by
your play! You may find that you are an excellent attacker - why
smother that by a self-imposed directive to play defensively?

I guarantee you'll get blown off the board if you try and do what you
said. Learn basic strategy, tactics, some basic openings, the basic
mates and endgames (Lucena's, Philidor's), and PLAY PLAY PLAY.

Come back in 6 months with your losses in PGN then we'll talk

:)

Date: 20 Oct 2006 16:16:09
From: Ray Gordon, creator of the \pivot\
Subject: Re: Newbie: Defensive player possible?

>> I am somewhat new to chess.
>>
>> Is it possible play defensively? What I wanted to try is to build an
>> air tight defense. Then gain a material advantage. Trade the other guy
>> down. Then push the pawn thru and promote them. If I can not do that,
>> then I want to have an air tight defense to the end and run down the
>> clock and win on time.
>>
>> Is the above possible? If so, what type of opening must I use? What
>> skills sets do I need for a middle game and end game.
>
> "Somewhat New to Chess":
>
> It's a bad idea to do what you said. You should read a basic chess
> strategy book, really basic. Something like Fred Reinfeld's "The
> Complete Chess Course". This wil teach you the real basics of chess
> strategy. Also, do Chess Tactics Server every day:
>
> http://chess.emrald.net/index.php
>
> You are trying to DEFINE your style, but you have not played enough
> games (being 'somewhat new to chess') to have your style defined by
> your play! You may find that you are an excellent attacker - why
> smother that by a self-imposed directive to play defensively?

I say let him explore this. He may wind up a very strong attacking player
with a solid foundation in defensive play.

At least he has a point of view in his play.

--
Money is not "game."
Looks are not "game."
Social status or value is not "game."
Those are the things that game makes unnecessary.

A seduction guru who teaches you that looks, money or status is game is not
teaching you "game," but how to be an AFC. He uses his students' money to
get women and laughs that "AFCs pay my rent."

Date: 20 Oct 2006 10:19:09
From: David Richerby
Subject: Re: Newbie: Defensive player possible?

General Fear <[email protected] > wrote:
> Is it possible play defensively?

Yes but not for beginners.

When you're attacking, there are often several possible moves. You
can see this by doing some tactical puzzles where you don't know what
the exact goal is, except, obviously, to get into a winning or
significantly better position. Quite often, you'll find that you come
up with a perfectly accurate line (by which I mean one that hasn't
overlooked any defensive resources of the other side) that wins, say a
knight or a rook and then turn to the solution to see that you could
have won the queen or checkmated.

On the other hand, when you're defending, there's often only one move.
Miss it and your opponent may have several ways to kill you and you'll
need a bit of luck for him to miss *all* of those. To defend well,
you need to see *everything*. To attack well, you only need to see
something.

As somebody on one of these groups once said, you often see commentary
saying that the attack plays itself.' How often do you see, `the
defence plays itself'?

Dave.

--
David Richerby Crystal Atom Bomb (TM): it's like a
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ weapon of mass destruction but it's
completely transparent!

Date: 20 Oct 2006 05:17:52
From: Ed Seedhouse
Subject: Re: Newbie: Defensive player possible?

On 19 Oct 2006 19:25:19 -0700, "General Fear" <[email protected] >
wrote:

>Is it possible play defensively?

Of couse it's possible. But how can you defend if you don't already
know how to attack?

>What I wanted to try is to build an air tight defense.

Good luck. No one has found one so far. The Petroff comes close *if*
you are a GM, but against anyone below master 1. e5 e5 2. Nf3 Nf6 3.Nxe5
d6 4. Nxf7!? is almost an automatic win for white.

>Then gain a material advantage. Trade the other guy
>down. Then push the pawn thru and promote them. If I can not do that,
>then I want to have an air tight defense to the end and run down the
>clock and win on time.

This is one of the two main "plans" of chess. The other main one is to
attack the K directly and mate him. Chess is fortunately much to
complicated for either approach to be at all easy.

As Tarrasch said, "Before the endgame, the gods have placed the
middlegame", and you will run up against good attackers who will allow
you to win material, but only in return for time to proceed with rather
nasty and hard to defend against attacks.

And unless you've already learned attacking play first you will be
helpless against them.

>Is the above possible? If so, what type of opening must I use? What
>skills sets do I need for a middle game and end game.

The skill set needed to defend is to know how to attack so you can
forsee the attacks and defend against them. Of course, to attack well
you must also know how to defend.

There is no magic road to chess success, other than a lot of hard work
of the right kind. Can you see every two move trick on the board? Are
you *sure*? I'm a CFC expert and the evidence from my own games is that
I can't, or at least not always.

Most games between those under master strength are decided by rather
simple tactical errors on one side or the other.

Date: 20 Oct 2006 12:59:27
From: Thorsten
Subject: Re: Newbie: Defensive player possible?

Ed Seedhouse wrote:
> On 19 Oct 2006 19:25:19 -0700, "General Fear" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>
>>Is it possible play defensively?
>
>
> Of couse it's possible. But how can you defend if you don't already
> know how to attack?
>
>
>>What I wanted to try is to build an air tight defense.
>
>
> Good luck. No one has found one so far. The Petroff comes close *if*
> you are a GM, but against anyone below master 1. e5 e5 2. Nf3 Nf6 3.Nxe5
> d6 4. Nxf7!? is almost an automatic win for white.

That is a dream of white players ;-) For anyone who plays and learned Petroff it is 2 Pawn for a
knight which black should win in 70 % or more. Because normaly White knows only 3 or 5 moves and the
attack is to weak. Black should defend e.g with g6 and Qe8
>

Date: 20 Oct 2006 14:56:31
From: Ed Seedhouse
Subject: Re: Newbie: Defensive player possible?

On Fri, 20 Oct 2006 12:59:27 +0200, Thorsten <[email protected] > wrote:

>> Good luck. No one has found one so far. The Petroff comes close *if*
>> you are a GM, but against anyone below master 1. e5 e5 2. Nf3 Nf6 3.Nxe5
>> d6 4. Nxf7!? is almost an automatic win for white.
>
>That is a dream of white players ;-)

If so it's a dream that regularly comes true against non-master
opposition. Of course if the two players are of roughly even strength
black will win his share of games, but the draw machine is gone.

Date: 20 Oct 2006 00:29:04
From: Ray Gordon, creator of the \pivot\
Subject: Re: Newbie: Defensive player possible?

> I am somewhat new to chess.
>
> Is it possible play defensively? What I wanted to try is to build an
> air tight defense. Then gain a material advantage. Trade the other guy
> down. Then push the pawn thru and promote them. If I can not do that,
> then I want to have an air tight defense to the end and run down the
> clock and win on time.
>
> Is the above possible? If so, what type of opening must I use? What
> skills sets do I need for a middle game and end game.

Study guys like Petrosian and Schlecter. And Kramnik!

--
Money is not "game."
Looks are not "game."
Social status or value is not "game."
Those are the things that game makes unnecessary.

A seduction guru who teaches you that looks, money or status is game is not
teaching you "game," but how to be an AFC. He uses his students' money to
get women and laughs that "AFCs pay my rent."

Date: 20 Oct 2006 03:02:06
From: Ron
Subject: Re: Newbie: Defensive player possible?

In article <[email protected] >,
"General Fear" <[email protected] > wrote:

> Is it possible play defensively? What I wanted to try is to build an
> air tight defense. Then gain a material advantage. Trade the other guy
> down. Then push the pawn thru and promote them. If I can not do that,
> then I want to have an air tight defense to the end and run down the
> clock and win on time.
>
> Is the above possible? If so, what type of opening must I use? What
> skills sets do I need for a middle game and end game.

Is this possible? Yes, absolutely.

Is it adviseable? No, not really. Not for a beginner. You need to learn
to attack first.

The problem is that beginners games are red by lots of mistakes.
When you're attacking and your make a mistake, you generally have a
complex position with a lot of pieces swarming around the enemy king -
eg, you've got swindling chances even if you're technically busted.

When you're defending and you make a mistake, you get mated or lose a
ton of material.

Look, sometimes, no matter what, you're going to have to defend. Your
opponent will surprise you or make a speculative sacrifice. He'll offer
a sac which you don't think is sound - you HAVE to take it, and prove
him wrong.

And at a high level, yes, there are players who made a career - even
became world champions - being priily defensive. Petrosian and Lasker
come to mind. But you can't play like Petrosian unless you're very,
very strong.

Lasker, on the other hand, might be a really good player for you to
study. He invited his opponents to attack positions he believed were
fundamentally sound, and then counterpunched when they overreached.

It's important, however, to be able to counterpunch like he did - which,
again, means attacking.

It's relevant to point out that even a player like Karpov, who has a
reputation as being a great defender, started out his career as a highly
aggressive player.

You need to be able to hit a guy when he gives you a target. Learn that
first.

Date: 23 Oct 2006 07:47:29
From: Martin S
Subject: Re: Newbie: Defensive player possible?

In article <ronaldinho_m-33A0C6.20020519102006
@newsclstr02.news.prodigy.com >, [email protected] says...
> > Is the above possible? If so, what type of opening must I use? What
> > skills sets do I need for a middle game and end game.
>
> Is this possible? Yes, absolutely.
>
> Is it adviseable? No, not really. Not for a beginner. You need to learn
> to attack first.
>
> The problem is that beginners games are red by lots of mistakes.
>
The problem is also that when making mistakes when playing passively as
a beginner - you making them "closer to home". Your king will
immediately find itself in a tight spot. You'll lose quickly.

As a beginner it is hard to defend bad positions. It's easier to attack
and confuse your opponent.

For players that fit your agenda though.
Ulf Andersson (at his best, some 15-20 years ago)
Vladimir Kramnik (today)

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Date: 20 Oct 2006 10:02:47
From: David Richerby
Subject: Re: Newbie: Defensive player possible?

Ron <[email protected] > wrote:
> And at a high level, yes, there are players who made a career - even
> became world champions - being priily defensive. Petrosian and
> Lasker come to mind. But you can't play like Petrosian unless
> you're very, very strong.

I'm not sure that `defensive' is the best description of Petrosian.
I'd describe his play as preventing his opponent from having any means
of attack and waiting for him to make a mistake in the resulting
position. Very often, the mistake would be that the opponent would
try to attack anyway and end up with a kedly inferior position;
other times, the opponent would just be less good at manoeuvring than
Petrosian so drift into a bad position. Many times, though, the
opponent wouldn't do anything too bad and the game would be drawn.

Why is `preventing his opponent from having any means of attack'
different from `defensive'? Well, it's more specific. If you've
stopped your opponent having any attack, there's nothing much to
defend against directly, while `defensive' includes the option of
letting your opponent attack anyway because you know you can hold it
off.

Dave.

--
David Richerby Miniature Nuclear Windows (TM): it's
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ like a graphical user interface that's
made of atoms but you can hold in it
your hand!

Date: 20 Oct 2006 09:05:52
From: Bjoern
Subject: Re: Newbie: Defensive player possible?

Ron wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> "General Fear" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>Is it possible play defensively? What I wanted to try is to build an
>>air tight defense. Then gain a material advantage. Trade the other guy
>>down. Then push the pawn thru and promote them. If I can not do that,
>>then I want to have an air tight defense to the end and run down the
>>clock and win on time.
>>
>>Is the above possible? If so, what type of opening must I use? What
>>skills sets do I need for a middle game and end game.
>
>
> Is this possible? Yes, absolutely.
>
> Is it adviseable? No, not really. Not for a beginner. You need to learn
> to attack first.
>
> The problem is that beginners games are red by lots of mistakes.
> When you're attacking and your make a mistake, you generally have a
> complex position with a lot of pieces swarming around the enemy king -
> eg, you've got swindling chances even if you're technically busted.
>
> When you're defending and you make a mistake, you get mated or lose a
> ton of material.

What could of course be a sensible approach is to play sound and not
extremely ambitious openings. Like Colle set-ups as white, the basics of
which don't require any big amount of theory. With black it's of course
all a bit more difficult, maybe the 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.Nc3 Qa5
Scandinavian as black (aiming for a c6+Bf5+e6 set-up) against 1.e4 and
the classical queen's gambit declined against 1.d4.

So, not needing to learn much theory for the time being, one can then
concentrate on acquiring other key skills, particularly tactical
abilities. Those are very, very important, whether you are attacking or
defending. That's also one of the things where it's clear how one should
work on it: Solve lots of tactical problems!

Some strategic understanding is also important (but particularly against
not so strong opposition one can often still find a tactical swindling
opportunity even if things have gone wrong strategically). For a start
strategic understanding of the positions one is most likely to play can
be acquired to an extent by just playing over a good number of games by
strong players in the same openings that one uses.

Date: 23 Oct 2006 07:50:30
From: Martin S
Subject: Re: Newbie: Defensive player possible?

In article <[email protected] >,
[email protected] says...
> What could of course be a sensible approach is to play sound and not
> extremely ambitious openings. Like Colle set-ups as white
>
Or Torre 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3, e6 3.Bg5
then you go e3, Bd3, c3,0-0, Nbd2, Re1, e4 - simple plan.

As black 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3/d2 dxe4 boring but solid.

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