Need opinion on game.

Main

Date: 22 Feb 2006 07:17:14
From: John J.
Subject: Need opinion on game.

White: Pocket Fritz

1.e4 c6 2.d4 d4 3.Nc3 dxe4 4. Nxe4 Bf5 5.Ng3 Bg6 6.Bc4 e6 7.h4 h3 8.N1e2 Bd6
9.Nf4 Bh7 10.Ngh5 Bf8 11.c3 Nd7 12.Qe2 Nb6

Here pocket Fritz2 played 13.Bg3 and went on to lose. What if it had played
13.Bxe6

I see 13......fxe6 14.Nxe6 Qe7

I don't see any way for White to finish Black off..

Fritz and ENIAC analysis are encouraged. :)

Date: 22 Feb 2006 13:10:22
From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Claus-J=FCrgen_Heigl?=
Subject: Re: Need opinion on game.

John J. wrote:
> White: Pocket Fritz
>
> 1.e4 c6 2.d4 d4 3.Nc3 dxe4 4. Nxe4 Bf5 5.Ng3 Bg6 6.Bc4 e6 7.h4 h3 8.N1e2 Bd6
> 9.Nf4 Bh7 10.Ngh5 Bf8 11.c3 Nd7 12.Qe2 Nb6
>
> Here pocket Fritz2 played 13.Bg3 and went on to lose. What if it had played
> 13.Bxe6
>
> I see 13......fxe6 14.Nxe6 Qe7

Hello John,

perhaps you are referring to my post in r.g.c.c. I admit that there is
not a fast way to finish off Black. Because the black king looks unsafe
in the middle and the black pieces are difficult to develop I thought
not in the way of a materialistic continuation like 15. Nc7 but of 15.
0-0 making Bxe6 a real sacrifice. White is materially back by a piece
for two pawns but has compensation I think. Maybe I overestimated
White's chances in the first post.

In the variation for the 11th move I gave in r.g.c.c. the sacrifice is
much stronger.

>>This is a time loss, as 11. 0-0 Qxh4 12. Re1 with the threats d5 and
>>Bxe6 doesn't work. After 11...Nbd7 12. Bxe6 fxe6 13. Nxe6 Black has
>>massive problems. (Claus-Juergen Heigl)

Examples:

15. 0-0

15...Kf7 16. Re1 Nf6 17. Qd1 (threat Ng5+) 17...Nxh5 (17...Ne4 18. Nc5
Qxh4 19. Qb3+ Nd5 20. Qxb7+ Be7 21. Nxe4 Bxe4 22. Ng3 Bd3 23. Qxc6) 18.
Ng5+ hxg5 19. Rxe7 Bxe7 20. Qxh5+ Bg6 21. Qf3+ Kg8 22. Qg3 followed by
Bxg5. This is a rather unusual material distribution with Q+3p vs R+B+N.
I'm not that sure that White really is much better.

15...Kd7 16. Re1 Bf5 17. Nc5+ Kc8 18. Qxe7 Bxe7 19. Nxg7 Bd7 20. Bf4
with a third pawn for White (20...Bxh4? 21. Ne8 threat Nd6+) and
excellent piece play.

15...Nf6 16. Nxf6 (or 16. Re1 Kf7 17. Qd1 see above) 16...Qxf6 17. Nc7+
Kd7 18. Nxa8. White has R+2p vs. N+B, a better king position and nothing
to worry.

15...Bf5 16. Nhxg7+ Kd7 (16...Bxg7 17. Qh5+ Kd7 18. Nc5+ Kc8 19. Qxf5+)
17. Nc5+ Kc8 18. Qf3 Bd7 19. Nf5. Three pawn for the piece and attack,
White cannot complain.

Claus-Juergen

Date: 22 Feb 2006 15:31:25
From: John J.
Subject: Re: Need opinion on game.

Thank you Claus.

It is clear that letting White put his Knights on f4 and h5 is not good at
all for Black.

After 9.Nf4 black needs to take that Knight with 9.....Bxf4.

Also instead of Black's 8.....Bd6, 8....Nf6 prevents all of this nonsense.

It's interesting that I could find only 3 games where White played 7.h4 as
Pocket Fritz2 did.

John
"Claus-J�rgen Heigl" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> John J. wrote:
>> White: Pocket Fritz
>>
>> 1.e4 c6 2.d4 d4 3.Nc3 dxe4 4. Nxe4 Bf5 5.Ng3 Bg6 6.Bc4 e6 7.h4 h3 8.N1e2
>> Bd6 9.Nf4 Bh7 10.Ngh5 Bf8 11.c3 Nd7 12.Qe2 Nb6
>>
>> Here pocket Fritz2 played 13.Bg3 and went on to lose. What if it had
>> played 13.Bxe6
>>
>> I see 13......fxe6 14.Nxe6 Qe7
>
> Hello John,
>
> perhaps you are referring to my post in r.g.c.c. I admit that there is not
> a fast way to finish off Black. Because the black king looks unsafe in the
> middle and the black pieces are difficult to develop I thought not in the
> way of a materialistic continuation like 15. Nc7 but of 15. 0-0 making
> Bxe6 a real sacrifice. White is materially back by a piece for two pawns
> but has compensation I think. Maybe I overestimated White's chances in the
> first post.
>
> In the variation for the 11th move I gave in r.g.c.c. the sacrifice is
> much stronger.
>
> >>This is a time loss, as 11. 0-0 Qxh4 12. Re1 with the threats d5 and
> >>Bxe6 doesn't work. After 11...Nbd7 12. Bxe6 fxe6 13. Nxe6 Black has
> >>massive problems. (Claus-Juergen Heigl)
>
> Examples:
>
> 15. 0-0
>
> 15...Kf7 16. Re1 Nf6 17. Qd1 (threat Ng5+) 17...Nxh5 (17...Ne4 18. Nc5
> Qxh4 19. Qb3+ Nd5 20. Qxb7+ Be7 21. Nxe4 Bxe4 22. Ng3 Bd3 23. Qxc6) 18.
> Ng5+ hxg5 19. Rxe7 Bxe7 20. Qxh5+ Bg6 21. Qf3+ Kg8 22. Qg3 followed by
> Bxg5. This is a rather unusual material distribution with Q+3p vs R+B+N.
> I'm not that sure that White really is much better.
>
> 15...Kd7 16. Re1 Bf5 17. Nc5+ Kc8 18. Qxe7 Bxe7 19. Nxg7 Bd7 20. Bf4 with
> a third pawn for White (20...Bxh4? 21. Ne8 threat Nd6+) and excellent
> piece play.
>
> 15...Nf6 16. Nxf6 (or 16. Re1 Kf7 17. Qd1 see above) 16...Qxf6 17. Nc7+
> Kd7 18. Nxa8. White has R+2p vs. N+B, a better king position and nothing
> to worry.
>
> 15...Bf5 16. Nhxg7+ Kd7 (16...Bxg7 17. Qh5+ Kd7 18. Nc5+ Kc8 19. Qxf5+)
> 17. Nc5+ Kc8 18. Qf3 Bd7 19. Nf5. Three pawn for the piece and attack,
> White cannot complain.
>
> Claus-Juergen

Date: 22 Feb 2006 23:45:59
From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Claus-J=FCrgen_Heigl?=
Subject: Re: Need opinion on game.

John J. wrote:
> It's interesting that I could find only 3 games where White played 7.h4 as
> Pocket Fritz2 did.

My aging Scid database (not updated for a year or two) lists 10 games
for 7. h4, Chessbase online has 26 games. But after 7...h6 8. N1e2 there
are 35 games (Chessbase: 106) and after 9. Nf4 70 games (Chessbase:
208). So move order plays a role. The last move where I have a game with
is 12. Qe2 which was met every time (3) with Qe7 with a score of 2.5 :
0.5. 13. Rh3 with the idea Bxe6 or d5 now gets 100%.

8...Nf6 instead of 8...Bd6 seems not to be without trouble: 9. Nf4 Bh7
10. 0-0 scores 72% for White in my database (41 games).

Claus-Juergen

Date: 23 Feb 2006 00:10:59
From: Antonio Torrecillas
Subject: Re: Need opinion on game.

En/na Claus-J�rgen Heigl ha escrit:
> John J. wrote:
>
>> It's interesting that I could find only 3 games where White played
>> 7.h4 as Pocket Fritz2 did.
>
>
> My aging Scid database (not updated for a year or two) lists 10 games
> for 7. h4, Chessbase online has 26 games. But after 7...h6 8. N1e2 there
> are 35 games (Chessbase: 106) and after 9. Nf4 70 games (Chessbase:
> 208). So move order plays a role. The last move where I have a game with
> is 12. Qe2 which was met every time (3) with Qe7 with a score of 2.5 :
> 0.5. 13. Rh3 with the idea Bxe6 or d5 now gets 100%.
>
> 8...Nf6 instead of 8...Bd6 seems not to be without trouble: 9. Nf4 Bh7
> 10. 0-0 scores 72% for White in my database (41 games).
>
> Claus-Juergen

Would you mind to post those 3 games with 12.Qe2 Qe7?

thanks,
AT

Date: 23 Feb 2006 13:31:36
From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Claus-J=FCrgen_Heigl?=
Subject: Re: Need opinion on game.

Antonio Torrecillas wrote:
> En/na Claus-J=FCrgen Heigl ha escrit:
>> The last move where I=20
>> have a game with is 12. Qe2 which was met every time (3) with Qe7 with=
=20
>> a score of 2.5 : 0.5. 13. Rh3 with the idea Bxe6 or d5 now gets 100%.

> Would you mind to post those 3 games with 12.Qe2 Qe7?

Hello Antonio,

[Event "Midwest Masters op"]
[Site "Chicago"]
[Date "1987.??.??"]
[Round "5"]
[White "Ginsburg,k"]
[Black "Monokroussos,Dennis"]
[Result "1/2"]
[Eco "B18"]
1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 dxe4 4.Nxe4 Bf5 5.Ng3 Bg6 6.h4 h6 7.Nh3 e6 8.Nf4=20
Bh7 9.Bc4 Bd6 10.Ngh5 Bf8 11.Qe2 Qe7 12.Nd3 Nd7 13.Bf4 Ngf6 14.0-0-0 Nb6 =

15.Bb3 1/2

Premature draw in a roughly equal position.

[Event "Torcy op-A"]
[Site "Torcy"]
[Date "1991.04.??"]
[Round "0"]
[White "Delanoy,Arnaud"]
[Black "Baruch,J"]
[Result "1-0"]
[Eco "B18"]
1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 dxe4 4.Nxe4 Bf5 5.Ng3 Bg6 6.Bc4 e6 7.N1e2 Bd6 8.h4 =

h6 9.Nf4 Bh7 10.Ngh5 Bf8 11.Qe2 Qe7 12.Rh3 Nd7 13.d5 cxd5 14.Bxd5 exd5=20
15.Re3 Be4 16.Nxd5 Bxd5 17.Rxe7+ Nxe7 18.Be3 0-0-0 19.0-0-0 Bc6 20.Bxa7=20
Nf5 21.Qd3 g6 22.Bb6 Re8 23.Nf6 Re6 24.Nxd7 Rd6 25.Qc3 Bg7 26.Ne5 Bxe5=20
27.Qxe5 Re8 1-0

Not especially convincing. Black blunders in a bad position, 23...Re6=20
instead of Nxb6. Black would have been ok after 22...Be7.

[Event "Artek ol U16"]
[Site "Artek"]
[Date "1999.09.09"]
[Round "9"]
[White "Rusev,Krasimir"]
[Black "Maznitsin,Andrey"]
[Result "1-0"]
[Eco "B18"]
1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 dxe4 4.Nxe4 Bf5 5.Ng3 Bg6 6.h4 h6 7.Bc4 e6 8.N1e2=20
Bd6 9.Nf4 Bh7 10.Ngh5 Bf8 11.Qe2 Qe7 12.Rh3 Nd7 13.Bxe6 fxe6 14.Nxe6 Kf7 =

15.Re3 Qb4+ 16.c3 Qb5 17.Qg4 Ngf6 18.Nd8+ 1-0

This one is much better. Although 17...Ngf6 lead to a quick mate the=20
black position is difficult also after 17...Bf5 18. Qf4 and 17...Qf5 18. =

Rf3. 15...Qxh4 16. Qc4 +-, 15...Qd6 16. Nc7 (plan Qc4+ +/-) 16...Nb6 17. =

Rf3+ Nf6 18. Nxa8 Nxa8 19. Bxh6.

Current White Elo is 2409, Black Elo 2187 according to FIDE online rankin=
gs.

Claus-Juergen

Date: 23 Feb 2006 15:53:30
From: Antonio Torrecillas
Subject: Re: Need opinion on game.

En/na Claus-J�rgen Heigl ha escrit:
> Antonio Torrecillas wrote:
>
>> En/na Claus-J�rgen Heigl ha escrit:
>>
>>> The last move where I have a game with is 12. Qe2 which was met every
>>> time (3) with Qe7 with a score of 2.5 : 0.5. 13. Rh3 with the idea
>>> Bxe6 or d5 now gets 100%.
>
>
>> Would you mind to post those 3 games with 12.Qe2 Qe7?
>
>
> Hello Antonio,
> (...)
> Claus-Juergen

Thanks Claus Juergen,

... in those games a different move was played: 11.Qe2 Qe7
(without a previous 11.c3 Nd7)

I asked for those games because I did not found any game in my database
with 11.c3 Nd7 12.Qe2.

In this case as different move orders can lead to the same position we
need to search games with:
6.Bc4 or Bc4 in a later move
h4 h6 some moves later or not
N1e2-f4 or Nh3-f4

Good keys in chessbase are needed to have all games related in the same
key. Scid (?, I do not use Scid) or chessbase trees (in CB you can
create a tree from some selected games -about 9000 in this case-) can
solve some difficulties here.

In my case there are:
- no games with 12.Qe2 (as played in the game)
- 3 games with 11.Qe2 (the same you posted)

Main continuations for black are (as obviously suggest the Bd6-f8 moves)
- (playing with Bd6) 9.Nf4 Bxf4
- (playing without Bd6) 8...Nf6 (or the same change in any other
previous move playing Nf6 and keeping the B in f8) and if white plays
Ngh5 black is two tempo ahead respecto to game continuation.

AT

Date: 22 Feb 2006 09:51:58
From: David Richerby
Subject: Re: Need opinion on game.

John J. <[email protected] > wrote:
> 1.e4 c6 2.d4 d4 3.Nc3 dxe4 4. Nxe4 Bf5 5.Ng3 Bg6 6.Bc4 e6 7.h4 h3
> 8.N1e2 Bd6 9.Nf4 Bh7 10.Ngh5 Bf8 11.c3 Nd7 12.Qe2 Nb6
>
> Here pocket Fritz2 played 13.Bg3 and went on to lose. What if it had
> played 13.Bxe6

Can you please try to be more accurate with your notation so that
people can just copy and paste it into a chess program to see the
game? It's obvious that 2... d4 should be 2... d5 but what if 12.Qe2
is supposed to be 12.Qd2? It seems unlikely, in this case, but would
be a completely different position.

The correct game score is

1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 dxe4 4.Nxe4 Bf5 5.Ng3 Bg6 6.Bc4 e6 7.h4 h6
8.N1e2 Bd6 9.Nf4 Bh7 10.Ngh5 Bf8 11.c3 Nd7 12.Qe2 Nb6

after which Pocket Fritz presumably played 13.Bb3 and you're asking
about 13.Bxe6 fxe6 14.Nxe6 Qe7.

Fritz 8 thinks that White's best is 15.Nc7+ Kf7 16.Nxa8 Qxe2+ 17.Kxe2
Nxa8 with an equal position (+0.03 to 13 ply). It does agree that
13.Bxe6 is (fractionally) the best move, though I didn't let it
analyze the alternatives very much.

Dave.

--
David Richerby Simple Mentholated Book (TM): it's
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ like a romantic novel but it's
invigorating and it has no moving
parts!

Date: 22 Feb 2006 14:12:15
From: John J.
Subject: Re: Need opinion on game.

Sorry about the notation. Still getting used to algebraic vs descriptive.

"David Richerby" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:YvA*[email protected]...
> John J. <[email protected]> wrote:
>> 1.e4 c6 2.d4 d4 3.Nc3 dxe4 4. Nxe4 Bf5 5.Ng3 Bg6 6.Bc4 e6 7.h4 h3
>> 8.N1e2 Bd6 9.Nf4 Bh7 10.Ngh5 Bf8 11.c3 Nd7 12.Qe2 Nb6
>>
>> Here pocket Fritz2 played 13.Bg3 and went on to lose. What if it had
>> played 13.Bxe6
>
> Can you please try to be more accurate with your notation so that
> people can just copy and paste it into a chess program to see the
> game? It's obvious that 2... d4 should be 2... d5 but what if 12.Qe2
> is supposed to be 12.Qd2? It seems unlikely, in this case, but would
> be a completely different position.
>
> The correct game score is
>
> 1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 dxe4 4.Nxe4 Bf5 5.Ng3 Bg6 6.Bc4 e6 7.h4 h6
> 8.N1e2 Bd6 9.Nf4 Bh7 10.Ngh5 Bf8 11.c3 Nd7 12.Qe2 Nb6
>
> after which Pocket Fritz presumably played 13.Bb3 and you're asking
> about 13.Bxe6 fxe6 14.Nxe6 Qe7.
>
> Fritz 8 thinks that White's best is 15.Nc7+ Kf7 16.Nxa8 Qxe2+ 17.Kxe2
> Nxa8 with an equal position (+0.03 to 13 ply). It does agree that
> 13.Bxe6 is (fractionally) the best move, though I didn't let it
> analyze the alternatives very much.
>
>
> Dave.
>
> --
> David Richerby Simple Mentholated Book (TM):
> it's
> www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ like a romantic novel but it's
> invigorating and it has no
> moving
> parts!