My(?) new chess variant

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Date: 24 Dec 2007 03:06:50
From: Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (Wlod)
Subject: My(?) new chess variant

Use the standard chessboard, and the standard set
of pieces. At the beginning of the game each player
keeps her/his pieces on the table, between her/himself
and the board.

Players make moves alternatively. White starts.
A move consist of either setting a piece from the
table onto an empty square or of making a standard
chess move, except that there is no notion of castling
in this variant. Pawns can be set only on rows 2-7.
It's illegal to set your king on a square exposed to
capturing. If you capture an opponent piece then you
keep it (your opponent cannot use it anymore). If you
didn't set your king on the board yet then it is illegal
for you to deliver a checkmate. If your king is not
on the board, and you have no legal move then
you lost (very unlikely, because most probably
you can set legally your king on an empty square);
if you can't make a legal move but your king is on the
board, then it is a draw. If you deliver a check mate,
when your king is on the board, then you win.

Here, just for illustration, is a trivial example
(* = table):

1.R*-a7 K*-c8?
2.Ktbl-e1 Kc8-b8???
3.R*-a8 check mate

Enjoy,

Wlod

Date: 27 Dec 2007 11:51:41
From: Ron
Subject: Re: My(?) new chess variant

>
> =A0 =A0a b c d e f g h
> =A08 - - - - - - Q -
> =A07 - q - - - r - -
> =A06 - - - - - - - -
> =A05 - - - - - - - -
> =A04 - - - - - - - -
> =A03 - - - - - - - -
> =A02 - - - - - - - -
> =A01 - - - - - - - -
>
> =A0 =A0Black is a rook up.

No he isn't.

He has an extra rook on the board, but white has two rooks and a queen
"in hand" which he can drop on future moves, whereas black has only a
rook. If you consider a player's material to be "the material on the
board + the material you can drop in the future" then white is up a
queen for three pawns.

Date: 27 Dec 2007 05:05:24
From: Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (Wlod)
Subject: 1*d7 ... / Re: My(?) new chess variant

Early opening tries:

1.*d7 *Qd8
2.*Qd6!? *Be7
3.*c7 Qd8-f8

Now, wherever white queen runs, it will
be chased by a dropped blacked rook (or
another dropped piece), e.g.

4.Qd6-b6 *Rb4

and 5.Qb6-b8 does not work.

********

Let's try:

1.*d7 *Qd8
2.*Be8

Now white is threatening to drop a knight
onto one of the squares b7, c6, e6 or f7,
attacking lack queen. Thus black should
attack square d8 again with a light piece
(bishop or knight), e.g.

2 ... *Bg5
3.*Ne6 Qb6
4.*c7 Qxe6
5.c7-c8Q

Thus white got a queen for a knight and pawn
(white has only 7 pawns now). Black continues:

5... *Nd6
6.Qb8?! *Rd8

and black has a clear advantage. Or:

6.Qc6 *Nd8!

and black is winning again.

**********

Can black block with a bishop?

1.*d7 *Bd8?!
2.*c7 Bxc7
3.*e7 *Bf7

Hm, white is doing fine.

***********************************
Regards,

Wlod

Date: 26 Dec 2007 14:17:56
From: Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (Wlod)
Subject: Re: My(?) new chess variant

On Dec 25, 11:35 pm, "Chris F.A. Johnson" <[email protected] >
wrote:
> On 2007-12-26, [email protected] wrote:
>
> > Chris F.A. Johnson wrote:
>
> >>3 Qxa7
>
> > 1 a7 Qa8
> > 2 f7 Rf8
> > 3 Qxa7 f7-f8(Q)
>
> There's a rook on f8.
>
> Besides, that's not how it went; it was:
>
> 1 a7 Qa8
> 2 f7 Rf8
> 3 b7 Qxa7
>
> Your move.

Perhaps 2... Qxb7 would be better.

Regards,

Wlod

Date: 26 Dec 2007 14:16:10
From: Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (Wlod)
Subject: Early remarks / Re: My(?) new chess variant

The pawns in my variant have a higher
value than in the lasical chess. This
means that winning two pawns for a bishop
or knight may be good, or winning three pawns
for a rook. Also, a promotion of a pawn is not
such a great success, it does not win the game.
For one thing, you are losing a pawn in the process;
and for another, the opponent can counter by promoting
her/his pawn. Is promotion worth losing two
pawns (beside the promoted pawn)? I don't know.

Dropping a pawn is a one time threat. Thus it should
be used wisely. This is why pawns gained importance,
due to their new one-time mobility.

Examples (perhaps naive):

Opening 1:

1.*a7 *b2

Opening 2:

1.*a7 *Qb7
2.*c7 *Bc8
3.*e7 Qxa7
4.e7-e8Q Qxc7

White has promoted a pawn but lost two
pawns in the process. Now both may try
to promote new pawns. I don't know who
is ahead. Eg.

5.*f7 *c2
6..f7-f8Q c2-c1Q

Opening 3

1.*a7 *Qb7
2.*c7 *Bc8
3.*e7 *Re8
4.*f7 Rxe7
5.f7-f8Q Rxc7

and white is about to lose its third pawn.
It may promote another pawn, but white
will lag in its development, and black
will counter attack, will attempt promotions
under better conditions.

Wlod

Date: 26 Dec 2007 05:26:15
From: Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (Wlod)
Subject: Re: My(?) new chess variant

On Dec 26, 2:58 am, David Richerby <[email protected] >
wrote:

>[...] White seems to have a serious advantage of
> initiative in this variant.

It's not clear. Dropping two pawns on 7th row
puts white on defense (of those pawns). Losing
some pawns would be a drawback. Black after
two moves gets a chance to counter-attack
with dropping a pawn on 2nd row.

> Perhaps pawns should be restricted to
> being parachuted into their own half of
> the board or something?
>
> Dave.

That would be a premature panicking.
It is interesting to analyze these sharp
openings. They may be too crude after all.

In this style a better pair of pawns to drop early
on the 7th row would be perhaps c and e or d
and f.

Wlod

Date: 26 Dec 2007 02:37:06
From: Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (Wlod)
Subject: Re: My(?) new chess variant

On Dec 25, 11:27 am, [email protected] wrote:

>
> White starts by placing a pawn on a7.
>
> What reply would you make as Black?

Oh, you are trying to show that black is quickly lost.
This 1.*-a7 is an interesting, sharp opening, which
introduces tension right away. It's not immediately
clear who, if any, gets advantage. My quick analysis
is far from enough to provide an answer.

Wlod

Date: 25 Dec 2007 19:27:35
From:
Subject: Re: My(?) new chess variant

Wlodzimierz Holsztynski Wlod wrote:
>
>[email protected] wrote:
>
>>
>> What does black do if White
>>
>> 1) promotes any pawn that can be promoted without being recaptured,
>>
>> 2) otherwise puts pawns on a7,h7,b7,f7,c7,e7,d7?
>
>I am afraid that I don't understand your question.
>
>Let me just clarify one thing about
>promotion. One may imagine that the promoted
>pawn is still on the board but with letter Q or R
>or B or N painted on it, when it is promoted
>to Queen or Rook or Bishop or Knight respectively.
>
>In reality, we often replace the promoted pawn
>physically by a respective piece. But then that
>physical pawn which is off the board cannot be put
>on the board anymore.
>
>Please, try to rephrase your question, and I will
>do my best to understand you.

White starts by placing a pawn on a7.

What reply would you make as Black?

White's next move is a7-a8(Q) if doing so is safe
for the queen. If not, white places a pawn on h7.

What reply would you make as Black?

White's next move is to promote one of his pawns to
a queen if doing so is safe for the queen. If not,
white places a pawn on b7.

What reply would you make as Black?

White's next move is to promote one of his pawns to
a queen if doing so is safe for the queen. If not,
white places a pawn on f7.

What reply would you make as Black?

White's next move is to promote one of his pawns to
a queen if doing so is safe for the queen. If not,
white places a pawn on c7.

What reply would you make as Black?

White's next move is to promote one of his pawns to
a queen if doing so is safe for the queen. If not,
white places a pawn on e7.

What reply would you make as Black?

White's next move is to promote one of his pawns to
a queen if doing so is safe for the queen. If not,
white places a pawn on d7.

What reply would you make as Black?

Hints:

Blocking the pawns doesn't work. You end up with every
blocker attacked by two pawns.

Attacking the pawns doesn't work. It takes two moves to
take the pawn on a7 (place them capture) allowing the pawn
on f7 to promote to a queen

Placing black pawns on a2-f2 doesn't work. White is always
a step ahead and ends up with a queen up.

--
Guy Macon
<http://www.guymacon.com/ >

Date: 25 Dec 2007 18:08:19
From: Chris F.A. Johnson
Subject: Re: My(?) new chess variant

On 2007-12-25, [email protected] wrote:
...
> White starts by placing a pawn on a7.
>
> What reply would you make as Black?

1 ... Qa8

--
Chris F.A. Johnson, webmaster <http://Woodbine-Gerrard.com >
===================================================================
Author:
Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress)

Date: 25 Dec 2007 23:27:43
From:
Subject: Re: My(?) new chess variant

Chris F.A. Johnson wrote:

>[email protected] wrote:
>...
>> White starts by placing a pawn on a7.
>>
>> What reply would you make as Black?
>
>1 ... Qa8

2 White places a pawn on f7 As described below.

What reply would you make as Black?

Note: if your move consists of putting anything on
f8, the reply will be "White places a pawn on b7."

1 a7 Qa8
2 f7

**********************************

White starts by placing a pawn on a7.

What reply would you make as Black?

White's next move is a7-a8(Q) if doing so is safe
for the queen. If not, white places a pawn on h7.

What reply would you make as Black?

White's next move is to promote one of his pawns to
a queen if doing so is safe for the queen. If not,
white places a pawn on b7.

What reply would you make as Black?

White's next move is to promote one of his pawns to
a queen if doing so is safe for the queen. If not,
white places a pawn on f7.

What reply would you make as Black?

White's next move is to promote one of his pawns to
a queen if doing so is safe for the queen. If not,
white places a pawn on c7.

What reply would you make as Black?

White's next move is to promote one of his pawns to
a queen if doing so is safe for the queen. If not,
white places a pawn on e7.

What reply would you make as Black?

White's next move is to promote one of his pawns to
a queen if doing so is safe for the queen. If not,
white places a pawn on d7.

What reply would you make as Black?

Hints:

Blocking the pawns doesn't work. You end up with every
blocker attacked by two pawns.

Attacking the pawns doesn't work. It takes two moves to
take the pawn on a7 (place them capture) allowing the pawn
on f7 to promote to a queen

Placing black pawns on a2-f2 doesn't work. White is always
a step ahead and ends up with a queen up.

Date: 25 Dec 2007 19:45:06
From: Chris F.A. Johnson
Subject: Re: My(?) new chess variant

On 2007-12-25, [email protected] wrote:
>
> Chris F.A. Johnson wrote:
>
>>[email protected] wrote:
>>...
>>> White starts by placing a pawn on a7.
>>>
>>> What reply would you make as Black?
>>
>>1 ... Qa8
>
> 2 White places a pawn on f7 As described below.
>
> What reply would you make as Black?
>
> Note: if your move consists of putting anything on
> f8, the reply will be "White places a pawn on b7."
>
>
> 1 a7 Qa8
> 2 f7

2 ... Rf8

Your move.

--
Chris F.A. Johnson, webmaster <http://Woodbine-Gerrard.com >
===================================================================
Author:
Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress)

Date: 26 Dec 2007 03:26:05
From:
Subject: Re: My(?) new chess variant

Chris F.A. Johnson wrote:
>
>[email protected] wrote:
>>
>> Chris F.A. Johnson wrote:
>>
>>>[email protected] wrote:
>>>...
>>>> White starts by placing a pawn on a7.
>>>>
>>>> What reply would you make as Black?
>>>
>>>1 ... Qa8
>>
>> 2 White places a pawn on f7 As described below.
>>
>> What reply would you make as Black?
>>
>> Note: if your move consists of putting anything on
>> f8, the reply will be "White places a pawn on b7."
>>
>>
>> 1 a7 Qa8
>> 2 f7
>
>2 ... Rf8
>
> Your move.

What part of "if your move consists of putting anything on
f8, the reply will be "White places a pawn on b7." are you
having trouble understanding?

It's YOUR move, not mine.

Date: 25 Dec 2007 22:53:00
From: Chris F.A. Johnson
Subject: Re: My(?) new chess variant

On 2007-12-26, [email protected] wrote:
> Chris F.A. Johnson wrote:
>>[email protected] wrote:
>>> Chris F.A. Johnson wrote:
>>>>[email protected] wrote:
>>>>...
>>>>> White starts by placing a pawn on a7.
>>>>>
>>>>> What reply would you make as Black?
>>>>
>>>>1 ... Qa8
>>>
>>> 2 White places a pawn on f7 As described below.
>>>
>>> What reply would you make as Black?
>>>
>>> Note: if your move consists of putting anything on
>>> f8, the reply will be "White places a pawn on b7."
>>>
>>>
>>> 1 a7 Qa8
>>> 2 f7
>>
>>2 ... Rf8
>>
>> Your move.
>
> What part of "if your move consists of putting anything on
> f8, the reply will be "White places a pawn on b7." are you
> having trouble understanding?

Sorry, I missed that.

> It's YOUR move, not mine.

3 Qxa7

--
Chris F.A. Johnson, webmaster <http://Woodbine-Gerrard.com >
===================================================================
Author:
Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress)

Date: 26 Dec 2007 06:02:11
From:
Subject: Re: My(?) new chess variant

Chris F.A. Johnson wrote:

>3 Qxa7

1 a7 Qa8
2 f7 Rf8
3 Qxa7 f7-f8(Q)
4

Date: 26 Dec 2007 10:58:14
From: David Richerby
Subject: Re: My(?) new chess variant

<[email protected] > wrote:
> Chris F.A. Johnson wrote:
>>3 Qxa7
>
> 1 a7 Qa8
> 2 f7 Rf8
> 3 Qxa7 f7-f8(Q)
> 4

Our anonymouse seems to have become confused. Writing * for placement
moves, in case they ever become ambiguous, the moves that have been
played are

1.*a7 *Qa8
2.*f7 *Rf8
3.*b7 Qxa7

and, now, White is attempting the illegal move 4.f8 (there is a black
rook on f8). White's play might not be quite so winning as our
anonymous assumes but White seems to have a serious advantage of
initiative in this variant. Perhaps pawns should be restricted to
being parachuted into their own half of the board or something?

Dave.

--
David Richerby Radioactive Hi-Fi (TM): it's like a
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ music system but it'll make you glow
in the dark!

Date: 26 Dec 2007 02:35:14
From: Chris F.A. Johnson
Subject: Re: My(?) new chess variant

On 2007-12-26, [email protected] wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Chris F.A. Johnson wrote:
>
>>3 Qxa7
>
> 1 a7 Qa8
> 2 f7 Rf8
> 3 Qxa7 f7-f8(Q)

There's a rook on f8.

Besides, that's not how it went; it was:

1 a7 Qa8
2 f7 Rf8
3 b7 Qxa7

Your move.

--
Chris F.A. Johnson, webmaster <http://Woodbine-Gerrard.com >
===================================================================
Author:
Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress)

Date: 26 Dec 2007 16:09:28
From:
Subject: Re: My(?) new chess variant

Chris F.A. Johnson wrote:

> There's a rook on f8.

That will teach me to try to keep the board
in my head and answer via my PDA...
Apologies.

> Besides, that's not how it went; it was:
>
>1 a7 Qa8
>2 f7 Rf8
>3 b7 Qxa7
>
> Your move.

1 a7 Qa8
2 f7 Rf8
3 b7 Qxa7
4 g7

I am still on the road and away from my chess set,
so I am adding this as an aid to help me avoid
futher dumb mistakes.

a b c d e f g h
8 - - - - - R - -
7 Q p - - - p p -
6 - - - - - - - -
5 - - - - - - - -
4 - - - - - - - -
3 - - - - - - - -
2 - - - - - - - -
1 - - - - - - - -

kqrrbbnn----pppp
K--RBBNNPPPPPPPP

Date: 26 Dec 2007 15:47:34
From: Chris F.A. Johnson
Subject: Re: My(?) new chess variant

On 2007-12-26, [email protected] wrote:
> Chris F.A. Johnson wrote:
>
>> There's a rook on f8.
>
> That will teach me to try to keep the board
> in my head and answer via my PDA...
> Apologies.
>
>> Besides, that's not how it went; it was:
>>
>>1 a7 Qa8
>>2 f7 Rf8
>>3 b7 Qxa7
>>
>> Your move.
>
> 1 a7 Qa8
> 2 f7 Rf8
> 3 b7 Qxa7
> 4 g7

4. ... Rxf7

a b c d e f g h
8 - - - - - - - -
7 q P - - - r P -
6 - - - - - - - -
5 - - - - - - - -
4 - - - - - - - -
3 - - - - - - - -
2 - - - - - - - -
1 - - - - - - - -

If 5. g8Q Qxb7

a b c d e f g h
8 - - - - - - Q -
7 - q - - - r - -
6 - - - - - - - -
5 - - - - - - - -
4 - - - - - - - -
3 - - - - - - - -
2 - - - - - - - -
1 - - - - - - - -

Black is a rook up. This game isn't definitive, but I think it's
enough to show that it is not a straightforward win for White.

--
Chris F.A. Johnson, webmaster <http://Woodbine-Gerrard.com >
===================================================================
Author:
Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress)

Date: 27 Dec 2007 17:34:40
From: David Richerby
Subject: Re: My(?) new chess variant

Chris F.A. Johnson <[email protected] > wrote:
>> 1 a7 Qa8
>> 2 f7 Rf8
>> 3 b7 Qxa7
>> 4 g7
>
> 4. ... Rxf7 If 5. g8Q Qxb7
>
> a b c d e f g h
> 8 - - - - - - Q -
> 7 - q - - - r - -
> 6 - - - - - - - -
> 5 - - - - - - - -
> 4 - - - - - - - -
> 3 - - - - - - - -
> 2 - - - - - - - -
> 1 - - - - - - - -
>
> Black is a rook up.

No he isn't. White still has two rooks and a queen waiting to come
onto the board.

Dave.

--
David Richerby Hilarious Disgusting Gerbil (TM):
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ it's like a children's pet but it'll
turn your stomach and it's a bundle
of laughs!

Date: 27 Dec 2007 07:05:59
From:
Subject: Re: My(?) new chess variant

Chris F.A. Johnson wrote:
>
>On 2007-12-26, [email protected] wrote:
>> Chris F.A. Johnson wrote:
>>
>>> There's a rook on f8.
>>
>> That will teach me to try to keep the board
>> in my head and answer via my PDA...
>> Apologies.
>>
>>> Besides, that's not how it went; it was:
>>>
>>>1 a7 Qa8
>>>2 f7 Rf8
>>>3 b7 Qxa7
>>>
>>> Your move.
>>
>> 1 a7 Qa8
>> 2 f7 Rf8
>> 3 b7 Qxa7
>> 4 g7
>
>4. ... Rxf7
>
> a b c d e f g h
> 8 - - - - - - - -
> 7 q P - - - r P -
> 6 - - - - - - - -
> 5 - - - - - - - -
> 4 - - - - - - - -
> 3 - - - - - - - -
> 2 - - - - - - - -
> 1 - - - - - - - -
>
> If 5. g8Q Qxb7
>
> a b c d e f g h
> 8 - - - - - - Q -
> 7 - q - - - r - -
> 6 - - - - - - - -
> 5 - - - - - - - -
> 4 - - - - - - - -
> 3 - - - - - - - -
> 2 - - - - - - - -
> 1 - - - - - - - -
>
> Black is a rook up. This game isn't definitive, but I think it's
> enough to show that it is not a straightforward win for White.

I agree. It seemed at first that white could keep putting
up pawns and thus driving out the blockers, but that does
not seem to be the case. Good analysis on your part. :)

But is all lost for poor white? The way things are going,
according to the following rules from the original post...

"Use the standard chessboard, and the standard set
of pieces."

"A move consist of either setting a piece from the
table onto an empty square or of making a standard
chess move"

"If you capture an opponent piece then you keep it
(your opponent cannot use it anymore)."

...black is going to run out of men to place around
the time that white runs out of pawns to place.

Does that imply an easy win for white at that time,
or will black pull the same trick of placing pawns
one square away from promotion?

Or will black run out of men to place while white
still has a now-unstoppable pawn or two to place?
Or will it be black that wins that race?

When I get back home I am going to play a few dozen
games with a buddy to see how things turn out.

Date: 24 Dec 2007 16:20:24
From: Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (Wlod)
Subject: Re: My(?) new chess variant

On Dec 24, 5:50 am, [email protected] wrote:

>
> What does black do if White
>
> 1) promotes any pawn that can be promoted without being recaptured,
>
> 2) otherwise puts pawns on a7,h7,b7,f7,c7,e7,d7?

I am afraid that I don't understand your question.

Let me just clarify one thing about
promotion. One may imagine that the promoted
pawn is still on the board but with letter Q or R
or B or N painted on it, when it is promoted
to Queen or Rook or Bishop or Knight respectively.

In reality, we often replace the promoted pawn
physically by a respective piece. But then that
physical pawn which is off the board cannot be put
on the board anymore.

Please, try to rephrase your question, and I will
do my best to understand you.

Regards,

Wlod

Date: 24 Dec 2007 13:50:22
From:
Subject: Re: My(?) new chess variant

Wlodzimierz Holsztynski Wlod wrote:
>
>Use the standard chessboard, and the standard set
>of pieces. At the beginning of the game each player
>keeps her/his pieces on the table, between her/himself
>and the board.
>
>Players make moves alternatively. White starts.
>A move consist of either setting a piece from the
>table onto an empty square or of making a standard
>chess move, except that there is no notion of castling
>in this variant. Pawns can be set only on rows 2-7.
>It's illegal to set your king on a square exposed to
>capturing. If you capture an opponent piece then you
>keep it (your opponent cannot use it anymore). If you
>didn't set your king on the board yet then it is illegal
>for you to deliver a checkmate. If your king is not
>on the board, and you have no legal move then
>you lost (very unlikely, because most probably
>you can set legally your king on an empty square);
>if you can't make a legal move but your king is on the
>board, then it is a draw. If you deliver a check mate,
>when your king is on the board, then you win.

What does black do if White

1) promotes any pawn that can be promoted without being recaptured,

2) otherwise puts pawns on a7,h7,b7,f7,c7,e7,d7?