Morphy, Steinitz, Rubenstein and Fischer !!

Main

Date: 26 Mar 2005 17:02:52
From: Bugsy
Subject: Morphy, Steinitz, Rubenstein and Fischer !!

Watched the video's of Fischer landing in Iceland. He reminds me of
Howard Hughes only thing missing is the long finger nails. He reminds
me of the street alcoholic bumming change on the corner, except Fischer
does not drink.

It appears Fischer will have to be placed in an insane asylum soon, he
simply is to delusional and unable to care for himself. Seems he will
die penniless like Steinitz too. In fact, this was one reason for the
high stakes matches Fischer wanted to play to avoid Steinitz situation,
but I cannot help but feel his money supply must be running dry !

I cannot help but think of the expression:

"There is a fine line between genius and insanity"

It seems Fischer and other great chess players keep crossing that line.
Perhaps, Kasparov will be the next one to cross this invisible line !

Does anyone have a theory on why these great chess minds keep going
insane ? Perhaps, they always were insane, but it seems to be
perpetuated more in the very high-end chess players. It is actually a
little bit scary.

Was there ever a study done on this ?

Perhaps, there is a book or article around explaining what is happening
here !!

Anyway, this is certainly an interesting topic and I hope we can get a
decent discussion going on it !

Cordially

Date: 30 Mar 2005 11:55:16
From: Peter Billam
Subject: Re: Morphy, Steinitz, Rubenstein and Fischer !!

In article <[email protected] >, Bugsy wrote:
> Does anyone have a theory on why these great chess minds keep going
> insane ?

I've been meaning to ask for a while about Reuben Fine's quote:
Rubenstein was an artist whose masterpieces are
the priceless legacy of an unhappy genius.

What was Rubenstein story that qualifies him as an unhappy genius ?
(I mean the unhappiness bit ... I understand the genius bit :-)

Regards, Peter

--

Peter Billam, DPIWE/ILS/CIT/Servers, hbt/lnd/l8, 6233 3061

Date: 27 Mar 2005 13:20:18
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Morphy, Steinitz, Rubenstein and Fischer !!

Fischer practices the sort of moderate drinking often recommended by
physicians, the old two drinks a day...

But just for fun, and I can say this, your list is incomplete:

There are four types of drinkers:

1) Temperance
2) Social
3) Heavy
4) Alcoholic ( addiction ) No, five types!

5). The Irish

Date: 27 Mar 2005 18:00:58
From: Mike Murray
Subject: Re: Morphy, Steinitz, Rubenstein and Fischer !!

On 27 2005 13:20:18 -0800, "[email protected]" <[email protected] >
wrote:

>Fischer practices the sort of moderate drinking often recommended by
>physicians, the old two drinks a day...
>
>But just for fun, and I can say this, your list is incomplete:
>
>There are four types of drinkers:
>
>
>1) Temperance
>2) Social
>3) Heavy
>4) Alcoholic ( addiction ) No, five types!
>
>5). The Irish

Yes, a lot of people say the Irish have drinking problems. They drink
huge quantities of whiskey and ale, get blind stumbling drunk, pass
out and awaken with monster hangovers. So you see, it's a myth;
there's really no problem at all.

Date: 27 Mar 2005 18:02:47
From: Tom Klem
Subject: Re: Morphy, Steinitz, Rubenstein and Fischer !!

"Mike Murray" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 27 2005 13:20:18 -0800, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >Fischer practices the sort of moderate drinking often recommended by
> >physicians, the old two drinks a day...
> >
> >But just for fun, and I can say this, your list is incomplete:
> >
> >There are four types of drinkers:
> >
> >
> >1) Temperance
> >2) Social
> >3) Heavy
> >4) Alcoholic ( addiction ) No, five types!
> >
> >5). The Irish
>
> Yes, a lot of people say the Irish have drinking problems. They drink
> huge quantities of whiskey and ale, get blind stumbling drunk, pass
> out and awaken with monster hangovers. So you see, it's a myth;
> there's really no problem at all.

Rig-ht! They wake up, afterall.

Date: 26 Mar 2005 23:27:33
From: Eustace
Subject: Re: Morphy, Steinitz, Rubenstein and Fischer !!

Bugsy wrote:

> Watched the video's of Fischer landing in Iceland. He reminds me of
> Howard Hughes only thing missing is the long finger nails. He reminds
> me of the street alcoholic bumming change on the corner, except Fischer
> does not drink.
>
> It appears Fischer will have to be placed in an insane asylum soon, he
> simply is to delusional and unable to care for himself. Seems he will
> die penniless like Steinitz too. In fact, this was one reason for the
> high stakes matches Fischer wanted to play to avoid Steinitz situation,
> but I cannot help but feel his money supply must be running dry !
>
> I cannot help but think of the expression:
>
> "There is a fine line between genius and insanity"
>
> It seems Fischer and other great chess players keep crossing that line.
> Perhaps, Kasparov will be the next one to cross this invisible line !
>
> Does anyone have a theory on why these great chess minds keep going
> insane ? Perhaps, they always were insane, but it seems to be
> perpetuated more in the very high-end chess players. It is actually a
> little bit scary.
>
> Was there ever a study done on this ?
>
> Perhaps, there is a book or article around explaining what is happening
> here !!
>
> Anyway, this is certainly an interesting topic and I hope we can get a
> decent discussion going on it !
>
> Cordially

Yes, there is a book that explains what is happening here.

It's /The Glass Bead Game/ or (alternate title) /Magister Ludi/, the
final novel of the great German writer Hermann Hesse for which he got
the Nobel prize for Literature in 1946.

The Amazon.com page writes:

"Set in the 23rd century, The Glass Bead Game is the story of Joseph
Knecht, who has been raised in Castalia, the remote place his society
has provided for the intellectual elite to grow and flourish. Since
childhood, Knecht has been consumed with mastering the Glass Bead Game,
which requires a synthesis of aesthetics and scientific arts, such as
mathematics, music, logic, and philosophy, which he achieves in
adulthood, becoming a Magister Ludi (Master of the Game)."

Let me explain.

Castalia was a semi-independent utopian academic province, like an
extended college campus, with minimal contact with and influence from
the outside world that, however, supported it materially. The men there
- there were no women, in 1946 academia, as well as chess, was basically
an all-male domain - were expected to devote their lives to purely
academic pursuits, chief among them was the Glass Bead game. Sex one
could find, if he happened to so wish, with licentious women just
outside the borders of Castalia only, but certainly it wasn't a serious
preoccupation of the people there.

The worthy ones, like Joseph Knecht, would enter this prestigious
institution by passing stringent entrance exams in a particular field at
the age 9 or 10. Joseph was examined in the violin, and he passed with
honors. Those who were admitted in Castalia were expected to live the
rest of their lives there. His family is not mentioned from that point on.

There were several academic areas one could choose from. Music was one
of them. But the most prestigious by far of them all was the Glass Bead
game, a highly competitive intellectual game that required a lot of
preparation, and, naturally, attracted the brightest minds in Castalia.

Sometime during his high school years, Joseph Knecht's brilliant mind
was attracted to that seductive game, ("changed majors" we would say
today,) and became good at it. Very good. Actually the best. And finally
reached the position of Magister Ludi, something like the Dean of the
Glass Bead Game Department I suppose, a position that required
participating in as well as organizing tournaments.

(Eventually he somehow realized that there was a real world outside,
where real people made of flesh and blood were sweating to earn their
daily bread, falling in love, as well as killing and being killed in
bloody wars. This realization would shift his intellectual interest to
History, and he took the fateful decision to leave Castalia. Totally
ill-prepared as he was to meet the real world, he died very soon
afterwards.)

Now, Hermann Hesse's answer to your question. The problem with the
system in Castalia was that it was totally one-sided, emphasizing the
intellectual abilities/needs that were over-developed/satisfied, while
the physical/material as well as the emotional abilities/needs were
ignored. This created psychological instability and, inevitably,
propensity towards insanity. To remedy this, regular meditations was
prescribed to all. Those who followed their meditation program
faithfully, like Magister Ludi, were flourishing; those who were not
regular with it (some real talents among them) would soon develop
psychiatric problems... (The above analysis is in part mine.)

The book is supposed to have been written by one of Magister Ludi's
admiring disciples, who notes that later they recognized the importance
of physical education for mental stability, and included athletics in
their program.

I don't think there can be any question that one-sided intellectual
development is psychologically unhealthy. Hermann Hesse seems to think
that the glass bead game/chess is a prime example of a purely mental
intellectual pursuit. I am afraid that many of the greatest chess minds
sacrifice too much, some far too much, for the sake of chess...

Regards,

Eustace

Date: 27 Mar 2005 07:25:32
From: Hans J�rgen Lassen
Subject: Re: Morphy, Steinitz, Rubenstein and Fischer !!

For some time I automatically have shared the view that Fischer might not be
quite sane. But I came to think over this lately, and now I am not that sure
any longer.

Having a long beard does not qualify as a symptom, neither does Fischer's
contempt for the American and Japanese governments.

He is saying things that are not wise to say, sure, but again, that is not
in itself a sign of insanity.

Many people go to church, perform weird rituals and pray to an unknown
entity called God. This is considered perfectly normal, not the least bit
unsane.

Are there any clear and evident symptoms? Is Fischer more than just
eccentric?

HansJ

Date: 27 Mar 2005 06:19:13
From: Morphy's ghost
Subject: Re: Morphy, Steinitz, Rubenstein and Fischer !!

In the year of our Lord Sun, 27 2005 07:25:32 +0200, "Hans J�rgen
Lassen" <[email protected] > wrote:

>For some time I automatically have shared the view that Fischer might not be
>quite sane. But I came to think over this lately, and now I am not that sure
>any longer.
>
>Having a long beard does not qualify as a symptom, neither does Fischer's
>contempt for the American and Japanese governments.
>
>He is saying things that are not wise to say, sure, but again, that is not
>in itself a sign of insanity.
>
>Many people go to church, perform weird rituals and pray to an unknown
>entity called God. This is considered perfectly normal, not the least bit
>unsane.
>
>Are there any clear and evident symptoms? Is Fischer more than just
>eccentric?

I don't like to use the term sane or insane. It's just not that
simple.

Fischer obviously has a mental health problem. Equally obviously, it
is not of a type that would render him incompetent to function in
society.

The old fashioned term "eccentric" seems to fit him fairly well.
>
>HansJ
>
>

The fox condemns the trap, not himself. -- William Blake

Date: 27 Mar 2005 01:34:48
From: Bugsy
Subject: Re: Morphy, Steinitz, Rubenstein and Fischer !!

Morphy's ghost wrote:
> In the year of our Lord Sun, 27 2005 07:25:32 +0200, "Hans J�rgen
> Lassen" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>For some time I automatically have shared the view that Fischer might not be
>>quite sane. But I came to think over this lately, and now I am not that sure
>>any longer.
>>
>>Having a long beard does not qualify as a symptom, neither does Fischer's
>>contempt for the American and Japanese governments.
>>
>>He is saying things that are not wise to say, sure, but again, that is not
>>in itself a sign of insanity.
>>
>>Many people go to church, perform weird rituals and pray to an unknown
>>entity called God. This is considered perfectly normal, not the least bit
>>unsane.
>>
>>Are there any clear and evident symptoms? Is Fischer more than just
>>eccentric?
>
>
> I don't like to use the term sane or insane. It's just not that
> simple.
>
> Fischer obviously has a mental health problem. Equally obviously, it
> is not of a type that would render him incompetent to function in
> society.
>
> The old fashioned term "eccentric" seems to fit him fairly well.

I think paranoid schizophrenic would be more accurate.

Date: 27 Mar 2005 09:13:53
From: Hans J�rgen Lassen
Subject: Re: Morphy, Steinitz, Rubenstein and Fischer !!

"Bugsy" wrote:

> I think paranoid schizophrenic would be more accurate.

Which symptoms point in that direction, in your humble opinion?
HansJ

Date: 28 Mar 2005 08:15:40
From: Eustace
Subject: Re: Morphy, Steinitz, Rubenstein and Fischer !!

Hans J�rgen Lassen wrote:

> "Bugsy" wrote:
>
>
>>I think paranoid schizophrenic would be more accurate.
>
>
> Which symptoms point in that direction, in your humble opinion?
> HansJ

Bugsy is right. Most psychiatrists would diagnose him as paranoid
schizophrenic, citing delusions of world-wide Jewish conspiracy against
him. (This does not mean that I would advice any friend of mine to see a
psychiatrist, or that they know what they are talking about, or even
that his conspiracy theory is not to a large extend true.)

Clearly, however, his genius compensates whatever mental handicap. By
playing and winning in 1992 he was able to avoid a life of misery (I
remember the incidence when he was picked off the street because, they
said, he resembled a bank robber.) Since then, the money he gained has
enabled him to live a more than comfortable life. And now to find
friends to stand by him.

Eustace

Date: 28 Mar 2005 18:04:19
From: StanB
Subject: Re: Morphy, Steinitz, Rubenstein and Fischer !!

"Eustace" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> Since then, the money he gained has enabled him to live a more than
> comfortable life. And now
> to find friends to stand by him.

Did you mean to say "find friends" or "buy friends"?

Date: 28 Mar 2005 19:52:53
From: Eustace
Subject: Re: Morphy, Steinitz, Rubenstein and Fischer !!

StanB wrote:

> "Eustace" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>
>
>>Since then, the money he gained has enabled him to live a more than
>>comfortable life. And now
>> to find friends to stand by him.
>
>
> Did you mean to say "find friends" or "buy friends"?

I meant "find friends". Judging from my own feelings I don't have any
difficulty understanding that. And I don't think he could have bought
the 300,000 Icelanders. -emf

Date: 27 Mar 2005 06:59:33
From: Morphy's ghost
Subject: Re: Morphy, Steinitz, Rubenstein and Fischer !!

In the year of our Lord Sun, 27 2005 01:34:48 -0500, Bugsy
<[email protected] > wrote:

>Morphy's ghost wrote:
>> In the year of our Lord Sun, 27 2005 07:25:32 +0200, "Hans J�rgen
>> Lassen" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>For some time I automatically have shared the view that Fischer might not be
>>>quite sane. But I came to think over this lately, and now I am not that sure
>>>any longer.
>>>
>>>Having a long beard does not qualify as a symptom, neither does Fischer's
>>>contempt for the American and Japanese governments.
>>>
>>>He is saying things that are not wise to say, sure, but again, that is not
>>>in itself a sign of insanity.
>>>
>>>Many people go to church, perform weird rituals and pray to an unknown
>>>entity called God. This is considered perfectly normal, not the least bit
>>>unsane.
>>>
>>>Are there any clear and evident symptoms? Is Fischer more than just
>>>eccentric?
>>
>>
>> I don't like to use the term sane or insane. It's just not that
>> simple.
>>
>> Fischer obviously has a mental health problem. Equally obviously, it
>> is not of a type that would render him incompetent to function in
>> society.
>>
>> The old fashioned term "eccentric" seems to fit him fairly well.
>
>I think paranoid schizophrenic would be more accurate.

I personally doubt it, but neither of us can diagnosis him based upon
anecdotal evidence.

The fox condemns the trap, not himself. -- William Blake

Date: 26 Mar 2005 20:50:27
From: WeatherGuy
Subject: Re: Morphy, Steinitz, Rubenstein and Fischer !!

"Bugsy" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Watched the video's of Fischer landing in Iceland. He reminds me of
> Howard Hughes only thing missing is the long finger nails. He reminds me
> of the street alcoholic bumming change on the corner, except Fischer does
> not drink.
>
> It appears Fischer will have to be placed in an insane asylum soon, he
> simply is to delusional and unable to care for himself. Seems he will die
> penniless like Steinitz too. In fact, this was one reason for the high
> stakes matches Fischer wanted to play to avoid Steinitz situation, but I
> cannot help but feel his money supply must be running dry !
>
> I cannot help but think of the expression:
>
> "There is a fine line between genius and insanity"
>
> It seems Fischer and other great chess players keep crossing that line.
> Perhaps, Kasparov will be the next one to cross this invisible line !
>
> Does anyone have a theory on why these great chess minds keep going insane
> ? Perhaps, they always were insane, but it seems to be perpetuated more
> in the very high-end chess players. It is actually a little bit scary.
>

> Was there ever a study done on this ?
>
> Perhaps, there is a book or article around explaining what is happening
> here !!
>
> Anyway, this is certainly an interesting topic and I hope we can get a
> decent discussion going on it !
>
> Cordially

David Spanniers "Total Chess" (Abacus Press, 1986, ISBN 0-349-13240-2) has a
chapter on "Madness" in which this issue is discussed. The whole book is
very informative and entertaining.

Date: 26 Mar 2005 19:22:08
From: Laz
Subject: Re: Morphy, Steinitz, Rubenstein and Fischer !!

On Sat, 26 2005 17:02:52 -0500, Bugsy wrote:

> Watched the video's of Fischer landing in Iceland. He reminds me of
> Howard Hughes only thing missing is the long finger nails. He reminds
> me of the street alcoholic bumming change on the corner, except Fischer
> does not drink.
>
> It appears Fischer will have to be placed in an insane asylum soon, he
> simply is to delusional and unable to care for himself. Seems he will
> die penniless like Steinitz too. In fact, this was one reason for the
> high stakes matches Fischer wanted to play to avoid Steinitz situation,
> but I cannot help but feel his money supply must be running dry !
>
> I cannot help but think of the expression:
>
> "There is a fine line between genius and insanity"
>
> It seems Fischer and other great chess players keep crossing that line.
> Perhaps, Kasparov will be the next one to cross this invisible line !
>
> Does anyone have a theory on why these great chess minds keep going
> insane ? Perhaps, they always were insane, but it seems to be
> perpetuated more in the very high-end chess players. It is actually a
> little bit scary.
>
> Was there ever a study done on this ?
>
> Perhaps, there is a book or article around explaining what is happening
> here !!
>
> Anyway, this is certainly an interesting topic and I hope we can get a
> decent discussion going on it !
>
> Cordially

I doubt that it has anything to do with chess. When we see Bobby Fischer,
we're seeing what happens when you have a precocious, spoiled child who
was never disciplined and rarely even contradicted as a child, and who,
because of his amazing talent, was so over-indulged by all the adults in
his life that it bordered on worship. He was a rotten, bratty kid who was
treated like royalty, and predictably, he turned out just like Caligula
did before him.

Date: 26 Mar 2005 15:34:25
From: Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (Wlod)
Subject: Re: Morphy, Steinitz, Rubenstein and Fischer !!

Bugsy wrote:

> Anyway, this is certainly an interesting topic
> and I hope we can get a decent discussion going on it !

Your wish is rgcm's command:

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.games.chess.misc/browse_frm/thread/52b67722df313773/0f541804d2a3af49#0f541804d2a3af49

or, for short (the same):

http://tinyurl.com/4dhe7

Wlod

Date: 27 Mar 2005 00:00:22
From: Antonio Torrecillas
Subject: Re: Morphy, Steinitz, Rubenstein and Fischer !!

En/na Bugsy ha escrit:
> It appears Fischer will have to be placed in an insane asylum soon, he
> simply is to delusional and unable to care for himself. (...)
>
> "There is a fine line between genius and insanity"
>
> It seems Fischer and other great chess players keep crossing that line.
> Perhaps, Kasparov will be the next one to cross this invisible line !

Hello,

I think a single case is not enough to contruct such a generalization.

I think Kasparov, Anand, Topalov, Leko, Kramnik (I'm only following the
ELO list) are very long from that line.

Maybe if I continue I can find some dubious cases ...

And I know a lot of patzers who have crossed yet this line.

You know, ... not all spanish people like toros (in fact, I know very
few people who like it)

AT

Date: 26 Mar 2005 18:22:17
From: Bugsy
Subject: Re: Morphy, Steinitz, Rubenstein and Fischer !!

Antonio Torrecillas wrote:
> En/na Bugsy ha escrit:
>
>> It appears Fischer will have to be placed in an insane asylum soon, he
>> simply is to delusional and unable to care for himself. (...)
>>
>> "There is a fine line between genius and insanity"
>>
>> It seems Fischer and other great chess players keep crossing that
>> line. Perhaps, Kasparov will be the next one to cross this invisible
>> line !
>
>
> Hello,
>
> I think a single case is not enough to contruct such a generalization.

Huh ? Please read the subject header !!

http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lab/7378/eccent.htm

Date:
From:
Subject:

Date: 26 Mar 2005 14:24:16
From: Mike Murray
Subject: Re: Morphy, Steinitz, Rubenstein and Fischer !!

On Sat, 26 2005 17:02:52 -0500, Bugsy <[email protected] > wrote:

> Fischer
>does not drink.

Yes he does. Don't you remember one of his complaints -- that the
Japanese were endangering his health by depriving him of his daily
drink?

Date: 27 Mar 2005 08:17:38
From: Bugsy
Subject: Re: Morphy, Steinitz, Rubenstein and Fischer !!

Mike Murray wrote:
> On Sat, 26 2005 17:02:52 -0500, Bugsy <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>Fischer
>>does not drink.
>
>
> Yes he does. Don't you remember one of his complaints -- that the
> Japanese were endangering his health by depriving him of his daily
> drink?
>
>
Hi,

Yes, I just stumbled upon an article about it. It looks like he is
using alcohol to cope with his mental illness. This does not surprise
me as many people with mental illness self-medicate:

http://www12.mainichi.co.jp/news/mdn/search-news/926607/fischer-0-18.html

Bobby Fischer blames lack of booze for poor health in prison

2005.01.29

Chess maestro Bobby Fischer has cited a lack of alcohol as one of the
factors making him ill behind bars at the East Japan Immigration Bureau
Detention Center in Ushiku, Ibaraki Prefecture.

"I can't get any alcohol in here, which I think is also bad for my
health. I say that quite seriously. I think alcohol in moderation is
very good for your body. Alcohol in moderation is very good for your
health. It has a cleansing effect on your body, an antiseptic effect. It
has many benefits. It's good for your heart and so on," Fischer told
Radio DZRH in the Philippines in the second of two separate interviews
given on New Year's Eve and Jan. 17 and listed on the Internet
overnight. "They don't allow alcohol, but they allow cigarettes. And
they give the people cigarettes, tax-free. So the people are smoking
like chimneys in here."

Fischer, in detention while he fights on a series of fronts to avoid
being returned to the U.S. where he faces trial as a sanctions breaker
for playing chess, occasionally sounded weary and admitted feeling under
the weather.

"I'm very dizzy. I've been very dizzy the last two months. I'm very
dizzy now as I'm talking to you," he said as he opened the second
interview listed on the Internet overnight.

He blamed his state on the air conditioning at the detention center,
which he said is noisy, but left inmates unbearably cold if turned off.
He also repeated complaints he has made about the center's close
proximity to Tokai, Ibaraki Prefecture, scene of Japan's worst-ever
nuclear accident in 1999 and a series of minor mishaps at various times
since.

Date: 26 Mar 2005 17:49:15
From: Bugsy
Subject: Re: Morphy, Steinitz, Rubenstein and Fischer !!