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Main
Date: 05 Aug 2006 07:57:56
From: Ray Gordon
Subject: Let's SOLVE this opening: "Dancing Queens" Center Counter
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I have extensive experience and analysis with this line, but I want to keep
an open mind so I'll start from "scratch" and sprinkle my experience in as
the analysis develops. ECO actually ended its analysis here in an old
edition with "unclear." It is very fertile territory for new study.
The variation is this:
1. e4 d5 2. exd5 Qxd5 3. Qf3!!
I call it "dancing queens" because White develops the Queen to a good
square, with tempo, threatens to win Black's queen, and if Black recaptures,
White gains a developmental tempo with the Knight.
My "main line" after this runs 3...Qa5 4. Qc3!! which continues the threat.
Oddly, a number of Black players in fast games have played 4...Nf6?? 5.
Qxa5!! 1-0, which shows how unfamiliar they are with it.
The other line I like here is 3...Qd8 4. Qd3!!
--
"Google maintains the USENET." -- The Honorable R. Barclay Surrick, Eastern
District of PA Judge
From Parker v. Google, E.D.Pa. #04-cv-3918
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Date: 08 Aug 2006 03:04:22
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Let's SOLVE this opening: "Dancing Queens" Center Counter
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Ray Gordon wrote:
> >> Where does white get an edge in any line with 3...Nc3?
> >>
> >> I've yet to see anything convincing, which is why I explored the
> >> alternatives.
> >
> > How about the main line?
> >
> > 1. e4 d5 2. exd5 Qxd5 3. Nc3 Qa5 4. d4 Nf6 5. Nf3 c6
>
> 5...Bg4
>
> I also don't like 3...Qd8.
The 5...Bg4 lines aren't magical, White can secure an edge there too.
However, you would need to know the lines 18-20 moves deep... around
7,500 positions. Of course, Black has many options besides 5...Bg4 and
3...Qd8. In practice, even GMs play only the first 13-15 moves
correctly... Black eventually equalizes and the middlegame ensues.
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Date: 08 Aug 2006 10:28:26
From: Ray Gordon
Subject: Re: Let's SOLVE this opening: "Dancing Queens" Center Counter
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>> >> Where does white get an edge in any line with 3...Nc3?
>> >>
>> >> I've yet to see anything convincing, which is why I explored the
>> >> alternatives.
>> >
>> > How about the main line?
>> >
>> > 1. e4 d5 2. exd5 Qxd5 3. Nc3 Qa5 4. d4 Nf6 5. Nf3 c6
>>
>> 5...Bg4
>>
>> I also don't like 3...Qd8.
>
> The 5...Bg4 lines aren't magical, White can secure an edge there too.
> However, you would need to know the lines 18-20 moves deep... around
> 7,500 positions.
Plus, that 18-20 moves of analysis would have to be PERFECT. Odds of that?
Slim.
When I build a line on my own (and only after I've contemplated the "main
lines" since I trust GMs without a reason not to), I don't seem to run into
these problems, plus I obviously understand each wrinkle, since it stems
from my own foundation.
I'm not saying 3. Qf3 is better than 3. Nc3, but I have no evidence that
it's any worse, especially if chess is a forced draw.
I spent years with 3. Nc3 before I began looking for new ideas. I just
never could find anything impressive for White in any line.
>Of course, Black has many options besides 5...Bg4 and
> 3...Qd8. In practice, even GMs play only the first 13-15 moves
> correctly...
How sad for them!
>Black eventually equalizes and the middlegame ensues.
This 400 year-old opening is a lot stronger than people ever gave it credit
for. Whacking open the center immediately has a lot of plusses.
The system I'm working on now is designed to neutralize it with a different
approach that truly exploits the loss of tempo with the Queen. Hopefully,
I'll finish my book someday and you can see the computer-aided (not
computer-generated) work.
--
"Google maintains the USENET." -- The Honorable R. Barclay Surrick, Eastern
District of PA Judge
From Parker v. Google, E.D.Pa. #04-cv-3918
"appointment of counsel was unwarranted given Parker's abilities as a writer
and presenter of arguments"
From Page 6 of the ruling in Parker v. University of Pennsylvania, #04-3688,
Third Circuit Court Of Appeals.
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Date: 08 Aug 2006 01:17:16
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Let's SOLVE this opening: "Dancing Queens" Center Counter
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Ray Gordon wrote:
> Where does white get an edge in any line with 3...Nc3?
>
> I've yet to see anything convincing, which is why I explored the
> alternatives.
How about the main line?
1. e4 d5 2. exd5 Qxd5 3. Nc3 Qa5 4. d4 Nf6 5. Nf3 c6 6. Bc4 Bf5 7. Bd2
e6 8. Qe2 Bb4 9. O-O-O Nbd7 10. a3 Bxc3 11. Bxc3 Qc7 12. Ne5 Nxe5 13.
dxe5 Nd5 14. Bd2 O-O-O, more or less.
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Date: 08 Aug 2006 05:29:59
From: Ray Gordon
Subject: Re: Let's SOLVE this opening: "Dancing Queens" Center Counter
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>> Where does white get an edge in any line with 3...Nc3?
>>
>> I've yet to see anything convincing, which is why I explored the
>> alternatives.
>
> How about the main line?
>
> 1. e4 d5 2. exd5 Qxd5 3. Nc3 Qa5 4. d4 Nf6 5. Nf3 c6
5...Bg4
I also don't like 3...Qd8.
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Date: 06 Aug 2006 15:42:48
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Let's SOLVE this opening: "Dancing Queens" Center Counter
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Ray Gordon wrote:
> I still see no clear equality for Black, and I don't see a clear advantage
> for White in any of the main lines. I like the "complex equality" I get
> here, and obviously, most CC players aren't going to be that booked up in
> this (well, now they might be).
I can agree with that: "complex equality".
> I did find another alternative to the main lines other than 3. Qf3, however,
> which is why I'm sharing this, as it's now my "B" repertoire.
Similarly, the lines I mentioned where White scored a +0.50 advantage
early on against me have been expunged from my repertoire.
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Date: 06 Aug 2006 19:35:48
From: Ray Gordon
Subject: Re: Let's SOLVE this opening: "Dancing Queens" Center Counter
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>> I did find another alternative to the main lines other than 3. Qf3,
>> however,
>> which is why I'm sharing this, as it's now my "B" repertoire.
>
> Similarly, the lines I mentioned where White scored a +0.50 advantage
> early on against me have been expunged from my repertoire.
But can White force those?
My other idea is to play 5. c3, but White can get cramped if Black gets e5
in.
--
"Google maintains the USENET." -- The Honorable R. Barclay Surrick, Eastern
District of PA Judge
From Parker v. Google, E.D.Pa. #04-cv-3918
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Date: 06 Aug 2006 15:30:57
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Let's SOLVE this opening: "Dancing Queens" Center Counter
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>
> A move like h6 is silly. Bg5 isn't a threat, and a kingside pawn storm
> is premature. Ng5 looks like a threat, but isn't because of Nxd4
> (attacking c2). If white wants to give up a pawn to trade rooks, the
> problem with that is what exactly?
This is the same error I made in that 3. d4 Scandinavian game you
analyzed for me... wasting time defending against phantom threats.
> Ray is the only person who thinks that plugging a position blindly into
> your strongest available program and doing what it says is a reasonable
> chess strategy.
> In your case, following the computer recommendation ... a6 is a mistake
> (my computer likes it, too) because the move strengthens white's correct
> plan (his queenside pawn storm will be more effective - now an eventual
> b5! forces likes open).
I should know that. In the Bg4 Scandinavian, Black uses his bishop to
provoke White into moving his kingside pawns to similar effect. a6
doesn't even stop the pin. I saw Nf6 and my computer saw a6... I should
ignore my computer positionally {although tactically, it's quite a
demon and gives great advice}.
> Here's another example (from my own play) about why you shouldn't think
> like a computer:
>
> 1r1r3k/ppq1n1pp/2n1Bp2/b3pP2/7Q/B1P2N2/P4PPP/1R2R1K1 w - - 10 21
>
> Black, incidentally, is rated 2100 standard on FICS. This is a 30 30
> game. He's threatening to win the c3 pawn, obviously.
>
> White played 21. Re4; this is a move a computer would never play,
> because it really doesn't accomplish anything against the best defense.
> But since white isn't a computer, he misses things. Especially
> surprising moves like queen sacrifices.
>
> 21.Re4 Bxc3? 22.Qxh7+!! 1-0.
That's a pretty win. I set traps whenever I can, too:
2k4r/pp3p2/2p1pq2/3rn1p1/PPPN3p/7P/5PP1/2RQ1RK1 w - - 10 20
Black has to choose how to capture the d5 pawn. Crafty evaluates cxd5,
exd5, and Rxd5 as similar but I chose Rxd5 to set a trap.
20...Rxd5 21. c4? Rxd4! and White lost his knight.
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Date: 06 Aug 2006 12:05:57
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Let's SOLVE this opening: "Dancing Queens" Center Counter
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Ray Gordon wrote:
> >> >>> 1. e4 d5 2. exd5 Qxd5 3. Qf3!!
> >>
> >> > I second 3...Qxf3. 4. Nf3 Nc6 5. Bb5 Bd7 6. O-O O-O-O; Getting the
> >> > queens off the board dulls White's first-move advantage.
> >>
> >> Instead of 6 O-O, stronger is 6. d4!
> >
> > Black must prevent the pawn advance or win material elsewher. Both
> > 6...Nf6 and 6...a6 seem fine (but not e6, of course). Let's say, 6. d4
> > a6 7. Ba4 Nf6. I prefer 6...a6 because it's forcing, although 6...Nf6
> > would likely transpose after the next move.
> > Rybka(ELO:3015,depth:18) evaluates the position as +0.02 for White.,
> > a.k.a. equality. White's on the offensive, but Black's more developed.
>
> It's not a static +0.02, however. Castling long leaves Black vulnerable to
> moves like Ng5, btw.
Black should play h6 before castling queenside. That shuts down any
attacks via Ng5, but does allow White to catch up on his development.
Rybka suggests: 8. O-O e6 9. Re1 h6 10. Nd2 O-O-O
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Date: 06 Aug 2006 20:43:13
From: Ron
Subject: Re: Let's SOLVE this opening: "Dancing Queens" Center Counter
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In article <[email protected] >,
"[email protected]" <[email protected] > wrote:
> Black should play h6 before castling queenside. That shuts down any
> attacks via Ng5, but does allow White to catch up on his development.
>
> Rybka suggests: 8. O-O e6 9. Re1 h6 10. Nd2 O-O-O
It's really important to not take these computer lines blindly. You're
not a computer.
A move like h6 is silly. Bg5 isn't a threat, and a kingside pawn storm
is premature. Ng5 looks like a threat, but isn't because of Nxd4
(attacking c2). If white wants to give up a pawn to trade rooks, the
problem with that is what exactly?
Ray is the only person who thinks that plugging a position blindly into
your strongest available program and doing what it says is a reasonable
chess strategy.
Allowing Bg5 or Ng5 can actually be a very strong choice for black in
this position, because then ...h6, starting your kingside pawn storm,
comes with tempo.
Of course, the st player of the white pieces here wouldn't make one
of those moves.
Here's another example (from my own play) about why you shouldn't think
like a computer:
1r1r3k/ppq1n1pp/2n1Bp2/b3pP2/7Q/B1P2N2/P4PPP/1R2R1K1 w - - 10 21
Black, incidentally, is rated 2100 standard on FICS. This is a 30 30
game. He's threatening to win the c3 pawn, obviously.
White played 21. Re4; this is a move a computer would never play,
because it really doesn't accomplish anything against the best defense.
But since white isn't a computer, he misses things. Especially
surprising moves like queen sacrifices.
21.Re4 Bxc3? 22.Qxh7+!! 1-0.
A computer never plays this move because it "assumes" it's opponent sees
the queen sacrifice - and yet moves like 21.Re4 will have won me (and
will win you) countless games.
In your case, following the computer recommendation ... a6 is a mistake
(my computer likes it, too) because the move strengthens white's correct
plan (his queenside pawn storm will be more effective - now an eventual
b5! forces likes open).
A skilled human sees the flaw here instantly. The computer really
struggles, because even at great depth it has a hard time evaluating the
strength of the pawn storm. (Castling on opposite wings and initiating
pawn storms is, of course, a classic component of anti-computer strategy
for this very reason).
...a6 looks forcing - but it's forcing in a shallow way. It doesn't
actually improve your position, so what are you "forcing" exactly? He
has to move his bishop - big freaking deal.
In any event I'm not convinced black should abandon his plan of the fort
knox structure, since without queens it'll prove very hard for white to
do anything against it. My computer evaluates this as slightly more
favorable for white than the line you give, but black's position is
without weaknesses, and it appears he has no trouble exchanging a pair
of minor pieces or two and executing his pawn breaks.
It's slower. It's less "forcing" but black's plan is absolutely clear
and there's nothing white can really do to stop it.
And it's much more important - unless your name is Ray Gordon - to know
what your plan is, and how to execute it - than to know which of you
many options your computer (which, by the way, you won't have with you
during games) thinks is best.
-Ron
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Date: 06 Aug 2006 19:28:17
From: Ray Gordon
Subject: Re: Let's SOLVE this opening: "Dancing Queens" Center Counter
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> Ray is the only person who thinks that plugging a position blindly into
> your strongest available program and doing what it says is a reasonable
> chess strategy.
Only in the absence of other evidence. I also don't use the strongest
engine deliberately, but one that is merely very good. I want a slightly
"human" factor in my silicon so I don't become a zombie who follows them.
> Allowing Bg5 or Ng5 can actually be a very strong choice for black in
> this position, because then ...h6, starting your kingside pawn storm,
> comes with tempo.
>
> Of course, the st player of the white pieces here wouldn't make one
> of those moves.
>
> Here's another example (from my own play) about why you shouldn't think
> like a computer:
>
> 1r1r3k/ppq1n1pp/2n1Bp2/b3pP2/7Q/B1P2N2/P4PPP/1R2R1K1 w - - 10 21
Could you put that in English? I hate FEN.
--
"Google maintains the USENET." -- The Honorable R. Barclay Surrick, Eastern
District of PA Judge
From Parker v. Google, E.D.Pa. #04-cv-3918
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Date: 06 Aug 2006 19:45:21
From: Chris F.A. Johnson
Subject: Re: Let's SOLVE this opening: "Dancing Queens" Center Counter
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On 2006-08-06, Ray Gordon wrote:
>> 1r1r3k/ppq1n1pp/2n1Bp2/b3pP2/7Q/B1P2N2/P4PPP/1R2R1K1 w - - 10 21
>
> Could you put that in English?
It is in English.
> I hate FEN.
Can you explain why? Is there a faster method of entering a diagram
into a chess program than cutting and pasting FEN notation?
If you can't handle FEN, I could write you a script to convert it
into any other ASCII format.
--
Chris F.A. Johnson <http://cfaj.freeshell.org >
===================================================================
Author:
Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress)
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Date: 06 Aug 2006 16:43:23
From: Ray Gordon
Subject: Re: Let's SOLVE this opening: "Dancing Queens" Center Counter
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>> >> >>> 1. e4 d5 2. exd5 Qxd5 3. Qf3!!
>> >>
>> >> > I second 3...Qxf3. 4. Nf3 Nc6 5. Bb5 Bd7 6. O-O O-O-O; Getting the
>> >> > queens off the board dulls White's first-move advantage.
>> >>
>> >> Instead of 6 O-O, stronger is 6. d4!
>> >
>> > Black must prevent the pawn advance or win material elsewher. Both
>> > 6...Nf6 and 6...a6 seem fine (but not e6, of course). Let's say, 6. d4
>> > a6 7. Ba4 Nf6. I prefer 6...a6 because it's forcing, although 6...Nf6
>> > would likely transpose after the next move.
>> > Rybka(ELO:3015,depth:18) evaluates the position as +0.02 for White.,
>> > a.k.a. equality. White's on the offensive, but Black's more developed.
>>
>> It's not a static +0.02, however. Castling long leaves Black vulnerable
>> to
>> moves like Ng5, btw.
>
> Black should play h6 before castling queenside. That shuts down any
> attacks via Ng5, but does allow White to catch up on his development.
White can still pressure f7 by playing Bxc6 then Ne5.
> Rybka suggests: 8. O-O e6 9. Re1 h6 10. Nd2 O-O-O
>
I prefer 9. Bf4 to 9. Re1, because I don't know where I want my rooks yet,
and the Bishop can grab some prime real estate while I figure it out.
I still see no clear equality for Black, and I don't see a clear advantage
for White in any of the main lines. I like the "complex equality" I get
here, and obviously, most CC players aren't going to be that booked up in
this (well, now they might be).
I did find another alternative to the main lines other than 3. Qf3, however,
which is why I'm sharing this, as it's now my "B" repertoire.
There's also a deviation on the way to this that has only one wrinkle, and
if I can solve that, it would become my A line.
--
"Google maintains the USENET." -- The Honorable R. Barclay Surrick, Eastern
District of PA Judge
From Parker v. Google, E.D.Pa. #04-cv-3918
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Date: 06 Aug 2006 07:15:32
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Let's SOLVE this opening: "Dancing Queens" Center Counter
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Ray Gordon wrote:
> I've had some funky games where the queens move all over the board for a
> dozen or more moves.
It's not like this would be unexpected in the Center Counter. When
showing one of my games to a friend of mine some years ago where my
opponent played the Center Counter and lost about 5 tempi with queen
moves, he said, tongue firmly in cheek of course, "What do you expect?
He's a Center Counter player; those guys love to move their queen all
over the board!"
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Date: 06 Aug 2006 16:47:22
From: Ray Gordon
Subject: Re: Let's SOLVE this opening: "Dancing Queens" Center Counter
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>> I've had some funky games where the queens move all over the board for a
>> dozen or more moves.
>
>
> It's not like this would be unexpected in the Center Counter. When
> showing one of my games to a friend of mine some years ago where my
> opponent played the Center Counter and lost about 5 tempi with queen
> moves, he said, tongue firmly in cheek of course, "What do you expect?
> He's a Center Counter player; those guys love to move their queen all
> over the board!"
Well in this line, both queens can enjoy the fun for many moves: e.g., 1. e4
d5 2. exd5 Qxd5 3. Qf3 Qa5 4. Qc3! Qe5+ 5. Qe3! Qf6 6. Qc3! Qb6 7. Qc3! Qe6+
8. Qe3! Qg6 9. Qd3! etc.
Now you know why I call it the "Dancing Queens" line.
I came up with it one day when I felt left out by Black developing his queen
early. Sauce for the goose and all of that.
--
"Google maintains the USENET." -- The Honorable R. Barclay Surrick, Eastern
District of PA Judge
From Parker v. Google, E.D.Pa. #04-cv-3918
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Date: 05 Aug 2006 20:39:01
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Let's SOLVE this opening: "Dancing Queens" Center Counter
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Ray Gordon wrote:
> >>> 1. e4 d5 2. exd5 Qxd5 3. Qf3!!
>
> > I second 3...Qxf3. 4. Nf3 Nc6 5. Bb5 Bd7 6. O-O O-O-O; Getting the
> > queens off the board dulls White's first-move advantage.
>
> Instead of 6 O-O, stronger is 6. d4!
Black must prevent the pawn advance or win material elsewher. Both
6...Nf6 and 6...a6 seem fine (but not e6, of course). Let's say, 6. d4
a6 7. Ba4 Nf6. I prefer 6...a6 because it's forcing, although 6...Nf6
would likely transpose after the next move.
Rybka(ELO:3015,depth:18) evaluates the position as +0.02 for White.,
a.k.a. equality. White's on the offensive, but Black's more developed.
> Yet Rybka still says that White has a small advantage, and how many Center
> Counter players want the queens off the board this early?
The Queen's early development can be a liability. I wouldn't hesitate,
I would be happy to trade away the only weakness in my position.
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Date: 06 Aug 2006 05:20:51
From: Ray Gordon
Subject: Re: Let's SOLVE this opening: "Dancing Queens" Center Counter
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>> >>> 1. e4 d5 2. exd5 Qxd5 3. Qf3!!
>>
>> > I second 3...Qxf3. 4. Nf3 Nc6 5. Bb5 Bd7 6. O-O O-O-O; Getting the
>> > queens off the board dulls White's first-move advantage.
>>
>> Instead of 6 O-O, stronger is 6. d4!
>
> Black must prevent the pawn advance or win material elsewher. Both
> 6...Nf6 and 6...a6 seem fine (but not e6, of course). Let's say, 6. d4
> a6 7. Ba4 Nf6. I prefer 6...a6 because it's forcing, although 6...Nf6
> would likely transpose after the next move.
> Rybka(ELO:3015,depth:18) evaluates the position as +0.02 for White.,
> a.k.a. equality. White's on the offensive, but Black's more developed.
It's not a static +0.02, however. Castling long leaves Black vulnerable to
moves like Ng5, btw.
>> Yet Rybka still says that White has a small advantage, and how many
>> Center
>> Counter players want the queens off the board this early?
>
> The Queen's early development can be a liability. I wouldn't hesitate,
> I would be happy to trade away the only weakness in my position.
If the queen makes it to h5, with the Bg4, I hardly view that as weak.
--
"Google maintains the USENET." -- The Honorable R. Barclay Surrick, Eastern
District of PA Judge
From Parker v. Google, E.D.Pa. #04-cv-3918
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Date: 05 Aug 2006 12:14:55
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Let's SOLVE this opening: "Dancing Queens" Center Counter
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[email protected] wrote:
>> 1. e4 d5 2. exd5 Qxd5 3. Qf3!!
>
> 3....Qxf3!, the game is equal. White has the same half tempo lead as
> before the first move but there are no Queens.
I second 3...Qxf3. 4. Nf3 Nc6 5. Bb5 Bd7 6. O-O O-O-O; Getting the
queens off the board dulls White's first-move advantage. Black would be
happy. Rybka(ELO:3015,depth:15) says the position is +0.06 for White
and the moves are intuitive.
1. e4 d5 2. exd5 Qxd5 3. Nc3 Qa5 4. d4 Nf6 5. Nf3 c6 6. Bc4 Bg4 7. h3
Bh5 8. Qe2 e6 9. Bd2 Qb6 10. g4 Bg6
That's a position I got into in a more mainline Scandinavian.
Rybka(ELO:3015,depth:16) says the position is +0.50 for White. However,
White had studied the mainlines extensively to prepare for Black's
alternatives... eg, 2...Nf6, 5...Bf5, and 5...Bg4.
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Date: 05 Aug 2006 21:09:15
From: Ray Gordon
Subject: Re: Let's SOLVE this opening: "Dancing Queens" Center Counter
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>>> 1. e4 d5 2. exd5 Qxd5 3. Qf3!!
>>
>> 3....Qxf3!, the game is equal. White has the same half tempo lead as
>> before the first move but there are no Queens.
>
> I second 3...Qxf3. 4. Nf3 Nc6 5. Bb5 Bd7 6. O-O O-O-O; Getting the
> queens off the board dulls White's first-move advantage.
Instead of 6 O-O, stronger is 6. d4!
>:Black would be
> happy. Rybka(ELO:3015,depth:15) says the position is +0.06 for White
> and the moves are intuitive.
Yet Rybka still says that White has a small advantage, and how many Center
Counter players want the queens off the board this early?
> 1. e4 d5 2. exd5 Qxd5 3. Nc3 Qa5 4. d4 Nf6 5. Nf3 c6 6. Bc4 Bg4 7. h3
> Bh5 8. Qe2 e6 9. Bd2 Qb6 10. g4 Bg6
What about 5...Bg4?
> That's a position I got into in a more mainline Scandinavian.
> Rybka(ELO:3015,depth:16) says the position is +0.50 for White. However,
> White had studied the mainlines extensively to prepare for Black's
> alternatives... eg, 2...Nf6, 5...Bf5, and 5...Bg4.
Okay you listed 5...Bg4
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Date: 06 Aug 2006 04:55:56
From: Ron
Subject: Re: Let's SOLVE this opening: "Dancing Queens" Center Counter
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In article <[email protected] >,
"Ray Gordon" <[email protected] > wrote:
> Yet Rybka still says that White has a small advantage, and how many Center
> Counter players want the queens off the board this early?
Most of 'em.
Anybody who's willing to adopt the "Fort Knox" structure (the
a7-b7-c6-e6-f7-g7-h7 pawn formation) is going to be very happy with
exchanges. And if you're willing to play the scandiavian with Qxd5,
you're almost always happy to go for that structure.
All else being equal, exchanges in that sort of position help black.
Qxf3 is the definition of an "all else being equal" exchange.
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Date: 06 Aug 2006 05:23:02
From: Ray Gordon
Subject: Re: Let's SOLVE this opening: "Dancing Queens" Center Counter
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>> Yet Rybka still says that White has a small advantage, and how many
>> Center
>> Counter players want the queens off the board this early?
>
> Most of 'em.
>
> Anybody who's willing to adopt the "Fort Knox" structure (the
> a7-b7-c6-e6-f7-g7-h7 pawn formation) is going to be very happy with
> exchanges. And if you're willing to play the scandiavian with Qxd5,
> you're almost always happy to go for that structure.
>
> All else being equal, exchanges in that sort of position help black.
> Qxf3 is the definition of an "all else being equal" exchange.
My experience with White is that the exchange of queens is not bad at all,
and Black is still lagging slightly in development and space (hence the
+0.06 and +0.02 you see).
If chess is a forced draw, equality is all one will get out of the opening,
and this variation has hardly been solved. It certainly won't lead to
White's ruin, and from a long-term training standpoint, it's excellent
endgame practice.
I've had some funky games where the queens move all over the board for a
dozen or more moves.
--
"Google maintains the USENET." -- The Honorable R. Barclay Surrick, Eastern
District of PA Judge
From Parker v. Google, E.D.Pa. #04-cv-3918
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Date: 07 Aug 2006 18:59:56
From: David Richerby
Subject: Re: Let's SOLVE this opening: "Dancing Queens" Center Counter
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Ray Gordon <[email protected] > wrote:
> If chess is a forced draw, equality is all one will get out of the
> opening
So what? Perhaps the forced draw requires Black to answer 1.e4 with
the Sicilian and 1.e4 d5 is actually losing for Black as long as White
doesn't trade the queens. Whether chess is a forced draw is almost
irrelevant to whether some move in some given position is best: that
position might not be in the drawing strategy.
Dave.
--
David Richerby Devil Toy (TM): it's like a fun
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ child's toy that's possessed by Satan!
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Date: 07 Aug 2006 22:49:29
From: Ray Gordon
Subject: Re: Let's SOLVE this opening: "Dancing Queens" Center Counter
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>> If chess is a forced draw, equality is all one will get out of the
>> opening
>
> So what? Perhaps the forced draw requires Black to answer 1.e4 with
> the Sicilian and 1.e4 d5 is actually losing for Black as long as White
> doesn't trade the queens. Whether chess is a forced draw is almost
> irrelevant to whether some move in some given position is best: that
> position might not be in the drawing strategy.
Where does white get an edge in any line with 3...Nc3?
I've yet to see anything convincing, which is why I explored the
alternatives.
--
"Google maintains the USENET." -- The Honorable R. Barclay Surrick, Eastern
District of PA Judge
From Parker v. Google, E.D.Pa. #04-cv-3918
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Date: 08 Aug 2006 11:01:11
From: David Richerby
Subject: Re: Let's SOLVE this opening: "Dancing Queens" Center Counter
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Ray Gordon <[email protected] > wrote:
>>> If chess is a forced draw, equality is all one will get out of the
>>> opening
>>
>> So what? Perhaps the forced draw requires Black to answer 1.e4 with
>> the Sicilian and 1.e4 d5 is actually losing for Black as long as White
>> doesn't trade the queens. Whether chess is a forced draw is almost
>> irrelevant to whether some move in some given position is best: that
>> position might not be in the drawing strategy.
>
> Where does white get an edge in any line with 3...Nc3?
All I'm pointing out is that your argument based on `If chess is a
forced draw' is completely spurious. I don't need to prove that
3. Nc3 is strong because I'm attacking your argument, not your
conclusion.
Dave.
--
David Richerby Poisonous Addictive Painting (TM):
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ it's like a Renaissance masterpiece
but you can never put it down and
it'll kill you in seconds!
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Date: 08 Aug 2006 10:29:40
From: Ray Gordon
Subject: Re: Let's SOLVE this opening: "Dancing Queens" Center Counter
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>> Where does white get an edge in any line with 3...Nc3?
>
> All I'm pointing out is that your argument based on `If chess is a
> forced draw' is completely spurious. I don't need to prove that
> 3. Nc3 is strong because I'm attacking your argument, not your
> conclusion.
To validate your argument, 3. Nc3 would in fact have to be the only move,
would it not?
Is there any evidence of this?
--
"Google maintains the USENET." -- The Honorable R. Barclay Surrick, Eastern
District of PA Judge
From Parker v. Google, E.D.Pa. #04-cv-3918
"appointment of counsel was unwarranted given Parker's abilities as a writer
and presenter of arguments"
From Page 6 of the ruling in Parker v. University of Pennsylvania, #04-3688,
Third Circuit Court Of Appeals.
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Date: 08 Aug 2006 17:05:03
From: David Richerby
Subject: Re: Let's SOLVE this opening: "Dancing Queens" Center Counter
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Ray Gordon <[email protected] > wrote:
>>> Where does white get an edge in any line with 3...Nc3?
>>
>> All I'm pointing out is that your argument based on `If chess is a
>> forced draw' is completely spurious. I don't need to prove that
>> 3. Nc3 is strong because I'm attacking your argument, not your
>> conclusion.
>
> To validate your argument, 3. Nc3 would in fact have to be the only
> move, would it not?
No! Your argument is that chess is probably a draw with perfect play
so you can't expect better than equality out of any given opening.
This is completely false. For example, let us suppose that chess is,
indeed a draw after perfect play (many people believe this to be true;
I think it's quite likely; nonetheless, this hypothesis is not the
matter under discussion). This does not mean that, after 1.f3 e5
2.g4, Black should expect nothing better than equality.
All you can conclude from the hypothesis that chess is a draw with
perfect play is that, *if*Black*plays*perfectly*, White can't expect
anything better than equality from the opening. However, it may be
that Black's choice to play the Scandinavian already means that he's
not playing perfectly and that White now has a win if he plays
perfectly. It might, further, be that 3.Qf3 throws away this win; it
might be that 3.Nc3 throws away the win; it might be that neither
does. On the other hand, it might even be that 1.e4 is already not
perfect play and that Black wins with perfect play after any response
to 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5.
Just because chess is a draw with perfect play doesn't mean that White
can only expect equality after 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5. The conclusion
may well be true but it doesn't follow from the premise.
> --
> "Google maintains the USENET." -- The Honorable R. Barclay Surrick, Eastern
> District of PA Judge
> From Parker v. Google, E.D.Pa. #04-cv-3918
>
> "appointment of counsel was unwarranted given Parker's abilities as a writer
> and presenter of arguments"
> From Page 6 of the ruling in Parker v. University of Pennsylvania, #04-3688,
> Third Circuit Court Of Appeals.
The demonstrable falsity of the first quote doesn't put the second
quote in a very good light.
Dave.
--
David Richerby Poisonous Soap (TM): it's like a
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ personal hygiene product but it'll
kill you in seconds!
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Date: 08 Aug 2006 12:45:38
From: Ray Gordon
Subject: Re: Let's SOLVE this opening: "Dancing Queens" Center Counter
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>>> All I'm pointing out is that your argument based on `If chess is a
>>> forced draw' is completely spurious. I don't need to prove that
>>> 3. Nc3 is strong because I'm attacking your argument, not your
>>> conclusion.
>>
>> To validate your argument, 3. Nc3 would in fact have to be the only
>> move, would it not?
>
> No! Your argument is that chess is probably a draw with perfect play
> so you can't expect better than equality out of any given opening.
> This is completely false. For example, let us suppose that chess is,
> indeed a draw after perfect play (many people believe this to be true;
> I think it's quite likely; nonetheless, this hypothesis is not the
> matter under discussion). This does not mean that, after 1.f3 e5
> 2.g4, Black should expect nothing better than equality.
>
> All you can conclude from the hypothesis that chess is a draw with
> perfect play is that, *if*Black*plays*perfectly*, White can't expect
> anything better than equality from the opening.
I meant "sound openings."
Your hair-splitting is noted.
--
"Google maintains the USENET." -- The Honorable R. Barclay Surrick, Eastern
District of PA Judge
From Parker v. Google, E.D.Pa. #04-cv-3918
"appointment of counsel was unwarranted given Parker's abilities as a writer
and presenter of arguments"
From Page 6 of the ruling in Parker v. University of Pennsylvania, #04-3688,
Third Circuit Court Of Appeals.
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Date: 08 Aug 2006 18:24:46
From: David Richerby
Subject: Re: Let's SOLVE this opening: "Dancing Queens" Center Counter
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Ray Gordon <[email protected] > wrote:
> David Richerby wrote:
>> All you can conclude from the hypothesis that chess is a draw with
>> perfect play is that, *if*Black*plays*perfectly*, White can't expect
>> anything better than equality from the opening.
>
>I meant "sound openings."
And you haven't established that the Scandinavian is sound so you
*still haven't got anywhere.
Dave.
--
David Richerby Moistened Dictator (TM): it's like a
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ totalitarian leader but it's moist!
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Date: 08 Aug 2006 15:47:07
From: Ray Gordon
Subject: Re: Let's SOLVE this opening: "Dancing Queens" Center Counter
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>>> All you can conclude from the hypothesis that chess is a draw with
>>> perfect play is that, *if*Black*plays*perfectly*, White can't expect
>>> anything better than equality from the opening.
>>
>>I meant "sound openings."
>
> And you haven't established that the Scandinavian is sound so you
> *still haven't got anywhere.
I don't play it, but I haven't found a refutation for it.
Have you?
--
"Google maintains the USENET." -- The Honorable R. Barclay Surrick, Eastern
District of PA Judge
From Parker v. Google, E.D.Pa. #04-cv-3918
"appointment of counsel was unwarranted given Parker's abilities as a writer
and presenter of arguments"
From Page 6 of the ruling in Parker v. University of Pennsylvania, #04-3688,
Third Circuit Court Of Appeals.
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Date: 09 Aug 2006 10:11:26
From: David Richerby
Subject: Re: Let's SOLVE this opening: "Dancing Queens" Center Counter
|
Ray Gordon <[email protected] > wrote:
>> And you haven't established that the Scandinavian is sound so you
>> *still haven't got anywhere.
>
> I don't play it, but I haven't found a refutation for it.
>
> Have you?
*bangs head against wall*
And trim the damned sig. Four lines is standard.
Dave.
--
David Richerby Old-Fashioned Evil Gerbil (TM):
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ it's like a children's pet but it's
genuinely evil and perfect for your
grandparents!
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Date: 06 Aug 2006 17:29:36
From: Ron
Subject: Re: Let's SOLVE this opening: "Dancing Queens" Center Counter
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In article <[email protected] >,
"Ray Gordon" <[email protected] > wrote:
> My experience with White is that the exchange of queens is not bad at all,
> and Black is still lagging slightly in development and space (hence the
> +0.06 and +0.02 you see).
+0.06 is no different from 0.00 for a human player. It is completely
irrelevant.
-Ron
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Date: 06 Aug 2006 20:24:06
From: Ray Gordon
Subject: Re: Let's SOLVE this opening: "Dancing Queens" Center Counter
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>> My experience with White is that the exchange of queens is not bad at
>> all,
>> and Black is still lagging slightly in development and space (hence the
>> +0.06 and +0.02 you see).
>
>
> +0.06 is no different from 0.00 for a human player. It is completely
> irrelevant.
Actually, the difference is 0.06, and the evaluation is unresolved.
--
"Google maintains the USENET." -- The Honorable R. Barclay Surrick, Eastern
District of PA Judge
From Parker v. Google, E.D.Pa. #04-cv-3918
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Date: 05 Aug 2006 06:34:35
From:
Subject: Re: Let's SOLVE this opening: "Dancing Queens" Center Counter
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> 1. e4 d5 2. exd5 Qxd5 3. Qf3!!
3....Qxf3!, the game is equal. White has the same half tempo lead as
before the first move but there are no Queens.
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Date: 05 Aug 2006 21:03:54
From: Ray Gordon
Subject: Re: Let's SOLVE this opening: "Dancing Queens" Center Counter
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>> 1. e4 d5 2. exd5 Qxd5 3. Qf3!!
> 3....Qxf3!, the game is equal. White has the same half tempo lead as
> before the first move but there are no Queens.
An amazing proof!
Thank you for SOLVING this opening!
Discussion CLOSED!!
--
"Google maintains the USENET." -- The Honorable R. Barclay Surrick, Eastern
District of PA Judge
From Parker v. Google, E.D.Pa. #04-cv-3918
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