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Date: 02 Jun 2006 12:32:13
From: [email protected]
Subject: I can't understand this position
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r3kb1r/ppp1pppp/2n2n2/q7/3P2b1/2NB1P2/PPP1N1PP/R1BQK2R b KQkq - 0 7
ChessUp diagram: http://tinyurl.com/oubuf
In this position, Black's bishop on g4 is attacked and must choose a
retreat square--Bh5, Bd7, or Bf5. To me, Bd7 is passive but seems
stest since it avoids 8. Bb5 e6 9. Bxc5 bxc6--resulting in doubled
pawns. 10. O-O c5 fails to undouble them because of 11. d5.
I checked my chess database and was surprised to learn Bh5 has been
played 8 times while Bd7 has never been played. Also, Bh5 scores 5
wins, 3 draw, and 0 losses for Black, but Crafty evaluates the position
as +0.36 for White!
Why do Mieses and other greats prefer Bh5 over Bd7 in this position?
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Date: 02 Jun 2006 17:06:46
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: I can't understand this position
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Ron wrote:
> Dynamic factors in chess are a lot harder to understand than static
> ones. I'd encourage you to work through a few dozen Alekhine games -
> you'll start to get the feel for how there are more important things
> than structure.
That's what I'm trying to do, with a player who suits my style. For
every move her opponent makes, I select her top 2-3 responses, then
check her real response. For this position, I thought one way and she
thought another. I told Crafty and he agreed with me. I figured 'maybe'
Stefanova knew something we didn't so I asked here.
I'll see more of these dynamic factors as I play through her games.
> Crafty is not known as a particularly strong chess program. Don't rely
> on it in the absence of your own judgement.
Crafty is rated ELO 2700 and tied Fritz in a head-to-head contest. The
best chess computers are apparently Rybka and Zappa--2820 and 2830 ELO
respectively on a top-end computer. I could give Rybka a try. They
should all rip me to shreds tactically and in the endgame, but as you
said, their positional assessments are not so deep.
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Date: 03 Jun 2006 01:07:34
From: Ron
Subject: Re: I can't understand this position
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In article <[email protected] >,
"[email protected]" <[email protected] > wrote:
> That's what I'm trying to do, with a player who suits my style. For
> every move her opponent makes, I select her top 2-3 responses, then
> check her real response. For this position, I thought one way and she
> thought another. I told Crafty and he agreed with me. I figured 'maybe'
> Stefanova knew something we didn't so I asked here.
>
> I'll see more of these dynamic factors as I play through her games.
Well, part of the reason learning players are advised to study the
classics is that there's a lot more clarity in older games (where many
of the opponents were not as strong) than there are in modern ones.
You're more likely to see Alekhine's opponents make the same kind of
mistakes your opponents make than you are to see Stefanova's opponent's
make those mistakes.
-Ron
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Date: 02 Jun 2006 14:43:50
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: I can't understand this position
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Ahh, yes, the bishop pair and an extra tempo, that makes the
compensation clear. After 7. ... Bh5 8. Bb5 O-O-O 9. Bxc6 bxc6 10. O-O
e5 both Black's bishops are active and the board is opening up to best
utilize that advantage.
I'm playing through the games of GM Antoaneta Stefanova. I'll have to
look at Eric Prie and Ian Rogers next. Thanks for the insight.
Bjoern wrote:
> There's also a game by one of the current big exponents of the
> Scandinavian GM Eric Prie:
>
> However after 7...Bh5 8.Bb5 the move 8...0-0-0 has to be right, who
> would worry about a doubled pawn after 9.Bxc6 bxc6, when that gives nice
> active play with the pair of bishops.
>
> Personally I've always played 7...Bh5 and have scored 7/10 as black (+7 -=
3).
>
> Quite honestly I think 5.Bd3 is a bit feeble and black is already very
> close to equality, which is a bit of a psychological problem for white,
> particularly if black continues very actively. That's probably why black
> scores so well here, objectively white's position is not all that bad.
>=20
> --Bj=F6rn
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Date: 02 Jun 2006 21:30:02
From: Ron
Subject: Re: I can't understand this position
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In article <[email protected] >,
"[email protected]" <[email protected] > wrote:
> I checked my chess database and was surprised to learn Bh5 has been
> played 8 times while Bd7 has never been played. Also, Bh5 scores 5
> wins, 3 draw, and 0 losses for Black, but Crafty evaluates the position
> as +0.36 for White!
This is why you can't just plug positions into a computer and let it
play them for you.
The bishop pair and active pieces are long-term advantages which aren't
going anywhere. The doubled pawns aren't easily attackable and keep a
white N off d5. The open b-file gives black another avenue of attack.
Dynamic factors in chess are a lot harder to understand than static
ones. I'd encourage you to work through a few dozen Alekhine games -
you'll start to get the feel for how there are more important things
than structure.
Crafty is not known as a particularly strong chess program. Don't rely
on it in the absence of your own judgement.
-Ron
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Date: 02 Jun 2006 12:44:15
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: I can't understand this position
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The ChessUp diagram I gave originally is wrong. Try this one:
http://tinyurl.com/lgfdd
Also note that 7. ... Bh5 8. Bb5 Qb6 loses miserably. I fell for a
similar trap once! Play would continue 9. g4 Bg5 10. g5 Nd7 11. Nd5 and
Black's queen is in trouble!
[email protected] wrote:
> r3kb1r/ppp1pppp/2n2n2/q7/3P2b1/2NB1P2/PPP1N1PP/R1BQK2R b KQkq - 0 7
>
> In this position, Black's bishop on g4 is attacked and must choose a
> retreat square--Bh5, Bd7, or Bf5. To me, Bd7 is passive but seems
> stest since it avoids 8. Bb5 e6 9. Bxc5 bxc6--resulting in doubled
> pawns. 10. O-O c5 fails to undouble them because of 11. d5.
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Date: 02 Jun 2006 22:56:43
From: Bjoern
Subject: Re: I can't understand this position
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[email protected] wrote:
> The ChessUp diagram I gave originally is wrong. Try this one:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/lgfdd
>
> Also note that 7. ... Bh5 8. Bb5 Qb6 loses miserably. I fell for a
> similar trap once! Play would continue 9. g4 Bg5 10. g5 Nd7 11. Nd5 and
> Black's queen is in trouble!
>
> [email protected] wrote:
>
>>r3kb1r/ppp1pppp/2n2n2/q7/3P2b1/2NB1P2/PPP1N1PP/R1BQK2R b KQkq - 0 7
>>
>>In this position, Black's bishop on g4 is attacked and must choose a
>>retreat square--Bh5, Bd7, or Bf5. To me, Bd7 is passive but seems
>>stest since it avoids 8. Bb5 e6 9. Bxc5 bxc6--resulting in doubled
>>pawns. 10. O-O c5 fails to undouble them because of 11. d5.
>
>
There's also a game by one of the current big exponents of the
Scandinavian GM Eric Prie:
Winkler,C (2110) - Prie,E (2470) [B01]
Brussels zt Brussels (1), 1993
1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.Nc3 Qa5 4.d4 Nf6 5.Bd3 Nc6 6.Nge2 Bg4 7.f3 Bf5
8.Bxf5 Qxf5 9.a3 0-0-0 10.Be3 e5 11.d5 Ne7 12.Ng3 Qg6 13.Bxa7 Nexd5
14.Nxd5 Nxd5 15.Qe2 Nf4 16.Qc4 Nxg2+ 17.Kf1 Nf4 18.Be3 Nd5 19.Bf2 h5
20.Rg1 Qe6 21.Qa4 Nb6 22.Qe4 Rd2 23.Be3 Rxh2 24.b3 h4 25.Nf5 g6 0-1
For some reason a lot of strong players seem to play 7...Bf5.
However after 7...Bh5 8.Bb5 the move 8...0-0-0 has to be right, who
would worry about a doubled pawn after 9.Bxc6 bxc6, when that gives nice
active play with the pair of bishops.
Personally I've always played 7...Bh5 and have scored 7/10 as black (+7 -3).
Quite honestly I think 5.Bd3 is a bit feeble and black is already very
close to equality, which is a bit of a psychological problem for white,
particularly if black continues very actively. That's probably why black
scores so well here, objectively white's position is not all that bad.
But if white wants to try to get an advantage, he simply has to play
5.Nf3 or 5.Bd2.
--Bj�rn
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