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Date: 10 Aug 2006 15:02:45
From:
Subject: Help on a Chess Ending
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Hi all... can anyone help me in this chess ending?
I played it in a game on a 45/45 game on FICS but I agreed to a draw
because I was going out to dinner and the win, even if possible, was
not that close.
After I tried to analyse it to find a continuation, but not being a
strong player (around 1700 FICS) I am a bit unsure about my analysis...
I will be grateful to anyone that could help me with comments,
analysys, ideas
[FEN "8/5ppp/5k2/2b5/8/3RpPPP/1r2B3/4K3 b - - 0 33"]
33...g5
{if he desires to try to win, Black must provoke a hole in white
pawn structure and enter it with the king. White has no space for
manouvering and must keep an eye on the passed pawn}
34.Rd5 Rb1+ 35.Bd1 Bb6 36.g4
( 36.f4 seems losing even quicker.... or I am wrong?)
36...Rb2 37.Be2 Bc7 38.Rf5+ Kg6 39.Rc5 Rb1+ 40.Bd1 Bf4 41.Rc2 h5 {to
force a hole in white pawn structure} 42.Rc6+ f6 43.Ke2 Ra1
{To avoid the obvious tactics that would follow with Bc2+ gaining
the exchange}
44.Bc2+ Kg7 45.gxh5 {A fake gaining. Soon the black king will manage to
enter white lines via h column, virtually ending the fight}
45...Rh1 46.h6+ Kxh6 47.Rxf6+ Kh5 48.Re6 Rh2+ 49.Kd3
{Sending the white king away from the core of the fight}
49...Rd2+ 50.Kc3 {... farer and farer}
50...Kh4 51.Bf5 Kg3 52.Bd3 Kxh3 {With what we could call a clear
winning position for black}
Thanks to anyone who will answer
Jr
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Date: 21 Aug 2006 16:11:11
From: vindalooMan
Subject: Re: Help on a Chess Ending
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Ron wrote:
>
> A couple things worth noting: first, black's advantage is ginal. If
> the rooks come off, this position is a dead draw. (white puts pawns on
> g4 and h5, leaves his king where it is, and shuffles the bishop from d1
> to e2).
>
> The challenge in this position is how to advance the pawn, because white
> has three pieces (including the king) which can guard e2, and black has
> only two.
>
> I like g5, because it stops white from setting up the pawn structure
> above.
As I said elsewhere sorry for the not wanted morphing...now I am back
from vacation (sigh) and back to my real computer
As for bellatori, thanks for your answer. I will try to check your
ideas and will post back if I find something interesting or not clear
(hoping not to be too boring).
First of all thanks for the clarity with which you expressed the ideas
of the two colors in this ending.
> Ke2 doesn't work because of Rb2+ & Rh2. The best chance for me looks
> like h4!?, because after gxh4 gxh4 the black king is held back by the
> rook, and anyway pawn exchanges are good on principle. I don't like f4
> as much because on f4 the pawn is easier to attack (via Bc7) and the
> f-pawn can shelter the approach of the black king via the g-file, as
> well as getting in the way of the rook's defense of the h-pawn.
Thanks for the hint on the h pawn. I really must give it a try, also
because in the line chosen in my original post most of the troubles
came to white from the h file
> > h5 {to
> > force a hole in white pawn structure}
>
> I'm not sure this really accomplishes anything. Obviously, he shouldn't
> play gxh5. But hxg4, hxg4 and you've removed one of his weak pawns.
But the problem here was that the black king was not going anywhere.
I saw the pawn push as a chance for creating a hole. Another move with
the king or a piece seemed go nowhere because white should have
"waiting moves" too
>
>
>
> > 42.Rc6+ f6 43.Ke2 Ra1
>
>
>
> > {To avoid the obvious tactics that would follow with Bc2+ gaining
> > the exchange}
> > 44.Bc2+ Kg7 45.gxh5 {A fake gaining. Soon the black king will manage to
> > enter white lines via h column, virtually ending the fight}
>
> Agreed. However, he's in a bit of a spot, here, since you're threatening
> Rh1. He has to play Bd1, and, again, be patient. It's not easy for you
> to make progress.
You are right. With my line white opens the door to my king
Another good idea for improving white line. Thank you... this ending is
even more complex than what I thought, no wonder I found myself
scratching my head so many times wondering about how to go on...
>
>
> > 45...Rh1 46.h6+ Kxh6 47.Rxf6+ Kh5 48.Re6 Rh2+
>
> He wastes a move here. More precise defense was required:
>
> 48.Bd1 (or Kd3) with the idea of putting the bishop on e2.
>
> eg 48. Kd3 Rxh3 49.Bd1 Rh1 50.Be2 Rb1 51.Rc5! (to block attacks along
> the second rank) and white has a harder time making progress. The rook
> servers no purpose on e6, even though it's behind the passed pawn -
> black's king and rook are too active.
here is very late in the night so I will (try to) analyse
your lines in the following days and post my results for further
discussions...
Again, thank you for the time you spent and for your useful
suggestions...
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Date: 11 Aug 2006 04:01:47
From: Ron
Subject: Re: Help on a Chess Ending
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In article <[email protected] >,
[email protected] wrote:
> [FEN "8/5ppp/5k2/2b5/8/3RpPPP/1r2B3/4K3 b - - 0 33"]
>
> 33...g5
> {if he desires to try to win, Black must provoke a hole in white
> pawn structure and enter it with the king. White has no space for
> manouvering and must keep an eye on the passed pawn}
A couple things worth noting: first, black's advantage is ginal. If
the rooks come off, this position is a dead draw. (white puts pawns on
g4 and h5, leaves his king where it is, and shuffles the bishop from d1
to e2).
The challenge in this position is how to advance the pawn, because white
has three pieces (including the king) which can guard e2, and black has
only two.
I like g5, because it stops white from setting up the pawn structure
above.
> 34.Rd5 Rb1+ 35.Bd1 Bb6 36.g4
> ( 36.f4 seems losing even quicker.... or I am wrong?)
This is a complicated ending, so I'm not sure about anything here, but I
don't particularly like either pawn move.
Ke2 doesn't work because of Rb2+ & Rh2. The best chance for me looks
like h4!?, because after gxh4 gxh4 the black king is held back by the
rook, and anyway pawn exchanges are good on principle. I don't like f4
as much because on f4 the pawn is easier to attack (via Bc7) and the
f-pawn can shelter the approach of the black king via the g-file, as
well as getting in the way of the rook's defense of the h-pawn.
g4 is bad because it creates holes which white has a hard time
defending. The pawns may actually be better off on dark squares, because
then the bishop can fill the gaps and keep the enemy king away.
> 36...Rb2 37.Be2 Bc7 38.Rf5+ Kg6 39.Rc5 Rb1+ 40.Bd1 Bf4 41.Rc2
I don't like this move at all. He doesn't need the rook to guard the
passed pawn. Instead, he needs his rook active to harass you. I like Ke2
here, which dares black to make progress.
> h5 {to
> force a hole in white pawn structure}
I'm not sure this really accomplishes anything. Obviously, he shouldn't
play gxh5. But hxg4, hxg4 and you've removed one of his weak pawns.
> 42.Rc6+ f6 43.Ke2 Ra1
> {To avoid the obvious tactics that would follow with Bc2+ gaining
> the exchange}
> 44.Bc2+ Kg7 45.gxh5 {A fake gaining. Soon the black king will manage to
> enter white lines via h column, virtually ending the fight}
Agreed. However, he's in a bit of a spot, here, since you're threatening
Rh1. He has to play Bd1, and, again, be patient. It's not easy for you
to make progress.
> 45...Rh1 46.h6+ Kxh6 47.Rxf6+ Kh5 48.Re6 Rh2+
He wastes a move here. More precise defense was required:
48.Bd1 (or Kd3) with the idea of putting the bishop on e2.
eg 48. Kd3 Rxh3 49.Bd1 Rh1 50.Be2 Rb1 51.Rc5! (to block attacks along
the second rank) and white has a harder time making progress. The rook
servers no purpose on e6, even though it's behind the passed pawn -
black's king and rook are too active.
Instead he needs to blockade the passer, not worry about the h-pawn the
f-pawn is enough to stop the g-pawn.
> 49.Kd3
> {Sending the white king away from the core of the fight}
> 49...Rd2+ 50.Kc3 {... farer and farer}
> 50...Kh4 51.Bf5
Pointless. the h-pawn is irrelevant.
> Kg3 52.Bd3 Kxh3 {With what we could call a clear
> winning position for black}
Agreed.
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Date: 20 Aug 2006 05:26:31
From: bellatori
Subject: Re: Help on a Chess Ending
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I looked at this for a while and think that it probably is too hard to
call. I'd hate to adjudicate this. It is one of those where someone with
more time (and less sense!) will find n obscure win! However I agree with
33..g5 34.Rd5 Black has to break up White's pawns and get the king in.
White wants to keep the King at bay using the rook to cut off the White
side of the board.
You then play 34...Rb1+ Why? The correct response is Rd1 not the bishop.
As you correctly point out, the exchange of Rooks is no good, a move to b2
just repeats after Rd5 again. and b2 is the best square of the Rook
Bellatori
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