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Date: 16 Apr 2005 02:43:19
From: Ray Gordon
Subject: Has chess turned into mental bodybuilding?
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With computers having all but solved the game, are the strongest players simply going to be those who train the best against maximum machine resistance? Looks that way. -- Ray Gordon, Author http://www.cybersheet.com/easy.html Seduction Made Easy. Get this book FREE when you buy participating affiliated books! http://www.cybersheet.com/library.html The Seduction Library. Four free books to get you started on your quest to get laid. Don't buy anything from experts who won't debate on a free speech forum.
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Date: 23 Apr 2005 19:34:46
From: Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (wlod)
Subject: Re: Has chess turned into mental bodybuilding?
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none wrote: > I am not aware of any top grandmasters > who say they play against Fritz or any of > the machines regularly. Your lack of awareness doesn't mean much, dose it? It would be foolish on the part of the professional chess players not to take the advantage of training by playing regularly seriuous games against the top chess programs or machines. I've seen on ICC GMs playing blitz regularly against the strong programs. And IM Igor Ivanov played long series' of blitz games against a program. It looked to me like studying chess. Igor was losing the great majority of the games and he was rather losing his ICC rating. He didn't care. I know that he truly loves chess. And that's what counted to him. When it comes to slow games, I don't know many statements, not even a single one, by the leading GMs about not playing against strong programs during their training sessions. Do you? Furthermore, it seems that the great majority of young players, who got good, starting with Leko, got strong by playing a lot at home against computers. Actually, today, on any level, those who can stand playing (and losing :-) against computers intensively have a significant edge on those who cannot. Regards, Wlod
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Date: 23 Apr 2005 10:39:17
From: Rob
Subject: You can speak to a chess professional here
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Ray Gordon wrote: > >> With computers having all but solved the game, are the strongest players > >> simply going to be those who train the best against maximum machine > >> resistance? > >> > >> Looks that way. > >> > > > > First off your initial comment is begging the question. Computers have by > > no means nor are they even under the current architecture even capable of > > solving chess. http://www.pandorabots.com/pandora/talk?botid=97cfdd9a1e35339a > Yet they rarely draw winning positions or lose drawing positions. The only > way to beat them is "wire to wire." http://www.pandorabots.com/pandora/talk?botid=97cfdd9a1e35339a > > > I am not aware of any top grandmasters who say they play against Fritz or > > any of the machines regularly. What they do do is use the database > > functions in chessbase and other programs along with fritz to double check > > analysis and point the way to interesting lines. > > I saw a top GM lose 19 out of 20 games at three minutes per side against a > computer on ICC once. It was incredible. > > Even Kasparov has never beaten Deep Blue as Black. That may not be solving > the game, but it's damn close. > > I find it far more instructive to train against 2800 strength computers than > my human peers. Train Here http://www.pandorabots.com/pandora/talk?botid=97cfdd9a1e35339a > > -- > Ray Gordon, Author > http://www.cybersheet.com/easy.html > Seduction Made Easy. Get this book FREE when you buy participating > affiliated books! > > http://www.cybersheet.com/library.html > The Seduction Library. Four free books to get you started on your quest to > get laid. > > Don't buy anything from experts who won't debate on a free speech forum.
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Date: 23 Apr 2005 05:50:47
From: ace942
Subject: Re: Has chess turned into mental bodybuilding?
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The opening is just the beginning. A Master chess player is a Master at all phases of the game (Openings, Middle, Endgames, and Tactics). Granted that understanding openings is important because if you open well, it helps with the middle game but just stressing the opening is not going to make someone a GM. I think that you do have a good idea to play against strong computers since they can point out flaws as you go along and then you try to remember what you did wrong and try another path. I can remember a few times when someone I was playing against would make a mistake that I did previously in the same sort of opening and having had the computer refute my move helped in that game since I remembered what the computer played against me. Good luck :)
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Date: 23 Apr 2005 13:09:26
From: Ray Gordon
Subject: Re: Has chess turned into mental bodybuilding?
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> The opening is just the beginning. A Master chess player is a Master at > all phases of the game (Openings, Middle, Endgames, and Tactics). > Granted that understanding openings is important because if you open > well, it helps with the middle game but just stressing the opening is > not going to make someone a GM. Depends on how deep into the opening they go. Here's an idea: play against Fritz at its strongest level, and tell me how often you lose because you botched an equal or won endgame.
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Date: 22 Apr 2005 19:17:31
From: gnohmon
Subject: Re: Has chess turned into mental bodybuilding?
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> than the "art" we used to think it was prior to the computer era. "Who can measure the loveliness of a rose?" asked Anthony Santasiere in a Chess Life article that protested the introduction of the Elo System of rating in 1960 or so. And yet, today, Elo is everything, and "beautiful" play is measured only by its results, win, loss, or draw. Get with the times, man. You're so 19th-century in your thinking. :-)
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Date: 18 Apr 2005 19:53:16
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Has chess turned into mental bodybuilding?
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I find it far more instructive to train against 2800 strength computers than my human peers. The FMs and IMs I know would indicate that that is extremely poor practice. They use computers to check analysis mainly. If they don't feel that an opponent rated 400-500 points above them is useful to help them learn, it would seem odd that it would be helpful for someone rated 1000 points below. A 1900-2000 rating on Playchess is a relatively weak A player in my estimation. They seem to be about 100 points high compared to OTB. That doesn't seem like much progress, given the continual crowing you do here about being the next American GM, and so on.
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Date: 21 Apr 2005 02:08:45
From: Ray Gordon
Subject: Re: Has chess turned into mental bodybuilding?
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> The FMs and IMs I know would indicate that that is extremely poor > practice. They use computers to check analysis mainly. If they don't > feel that an opponent rated 400-500 points above them is useful to help > them learn, it would seem odd that it would be helpful for someone > rated 1000 points below. > > A 1900-2000 rating on Playchess is a relatively weak A player in my > estimation. They seem to be about 100 points high compared to OTB. That > doesn't seem like much progress, given the continual crowing you do > here about being the next American GM, and so on. The one-minute rating peaked around 2050 before I started training against the machines. That's also with a slightly slow mouse and computer. Even five years is a long time, and my projections are based on my continued ability to train 50+ hours a week for several years, which may or may not occur. The original point of my post is that chess is much more like bodybuilding now than the "art" we used to think it was prior to the computer era.
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Date: 17 Apr 2005 06:28:45
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Has chess turned into mental bodybuilding?
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That may not be solving the game, but it's damn close. No it isn't. Do you practice such foolish nonsense or does it come to you naturally? Solving the game = predicting the outcome from move 1, given any future possibility. Now go back and pretend you have seduced Jeri Ryan.
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Date: 16 Apr 2005 20:09:27
From: David Ames
Subject: Re: Has chess turned into mental bodybuilding?
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[email protected] wrote: > With computers having all but solved the game > > Another disingenuous statement from Ray. > > I composed a selfmate in 15 that passed muster on my computer (within > fast solving constraints - in the case of a s#15 - 7 days of computer > work!), but the human editor I sent it to cooked it! The upside of the > story is that he found a wonderful 2 solution selfmate in 15, in one > case sacrificing the queen, the other, the bishop. Two human minds > easily outbeat the computer. > Well, I supposed, from noting David Brown's problem column in Chess Life, that multiple solutions are allowed in helpmates. > Whatever happened, BTW, to that 2000+ bullet rating, your "seeing > everything," and the GM in 5 years prophecy, Gordo? Still making stupid > bets on it? Aw, come on. Calling someone "Fatty" in Spanish is not nice. David Ames
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Date: 16 Apr 2005 17:41:51
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Has chess turned into mental bodybuilding?
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With computers having all but solved the game Another disingenuous statement from Ray. I composed a selfmate in 15 that passed muster on my computer (within fast solving constraints - in the case of a s#15 - 7 days of computer work!), but the human editor I sent it to cooked it! The upside of the story is that he found a wonderful 2 solution selfmate in 15, in one case sacrificing the queen, the other, the bishop. Two human minds easily outbeat the computer. Whatever happened, BTW, to that 2000+ bullet rating, your "seeing everything," and the GM in 5 years prophecy, Gordo? Still making stupid bets on it?
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Date: 18 Apr 2005 08:14:29
From: Ray Gordon
Subject: Re: Has chess turned into mental bodybuilding?
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> I composed a selfmate in 15 that passed muster on my computer (within > fast solving constraints - in the case of a s#15 - 7 days of computer > work!), but the human editor I sent it to cooked it! The upside of the > story is that he found a wonderful 2 solution selfmate in 15, in one > case sacrificing the queen, the other, the bishop. Two human minds > easily outbeat the computer. Yet computers now play stronger than the world champion. > Whatever happened, BTW, to that 2000+ bullet rating, your "seeing > everything," On a good day! Seriously, I'm still peaking over 2000 bullet on Playchess, though I spend more time between 1950-1975. >and the GM in 5 years prophecy, <snip>? Still making stupid > bets on it? No one took me up on the first bet. Not that you'd care, but I am able to train quite a bit these days. Lately I've been playing nothing but computers that are 2700+ strength on the servers (probably about 2500 FIDE). I managed to defeat two of them in a row on Friday, and usually can stay even with them for the first 20 moves or so. My goal is to use the computers to extend my opening book well beyond published theory, then go back into playing against human competition. Of course, that's a long-term thing, so any of the freaks here who focus on the here and now wouldn't be particularly impressed. At this point I'd be more surprised if I didn't wind up a GM than if I did. -- Ray Gordon, Author http://www.cybersheet.com/easy.html Seduction Made Easy. Get this book FREE when you buy participating affiliated books! http://www.cybersheet.com/library.html The Seduction Library. Four free books to get you started on your quest to get laid. Don't buy anything from experts who won't debate on a free speech forum.
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Date: 16 Apr 2005 16:33:10
From: none
Subject: Re: Has chess turned into mental bodybuilding?
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Ray Gordon wrote: > With computers having all but solved the game, are the strongest players > simply going to be those who train the best against maximum machine > resistance? > > Looks that way. > First off your initial comment is begging the question. Computers have by no means nor are they even under the current architecture even capable of solving chess. I am not aware of any top grandmasters who say they play against Fritz or any of the machines regularly. What they do do is use the database functions in chessbase and other programs along with fritz to double check analysis and point the way to interesting lines.
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Date: 17 Apr 2005 08:52:53
From: Ray Gordon
Subject: Re: Has chess turned into mental bodybuilding?
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>> With computers having all but solved the game, are the strongest players >> simply going to be those who train the best against maximum machine >> resistance? >> >> Looks that way. >> > > First off your initial comment is begging the question. Computers have by > no means nor are they even under the current architecture even capable of > solving chess. Yet they rarely draw winning positions or lose drawing positions. The only way to beat them is "wire to wire." > I am not aware of any top grandmasters who say they play against Fritz or > any of the machines regularly. What they do do is use the database > functions in chessbase and other programs along with fritz to double check > analysis and point the way to interesting lines. I saw a top GM lose 19 out of 20 games at three minutes per side against a computer on ICC once. It was incredible. Even Kasparov has never beaten Deep Blue as Black. That may not be solving the game, but it's damn close. I find it far more instructive to train against 2800 strength computers than my human peers. -- Ray Gordon, Author http://www.cybersheet.com/easy.html Seduction Made Easy. Get this book FREE when you buy participating affiliated books! http://www.cybersheet.com/library.html The Seduction Library. Four free books to get you started on your quest to get laid. Don't buy anything from experts who won't debate on a free speech forum.
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Date: 16 Apr 2005 00:57:42
From: LSD
Subject: Re: Has chess turned into mental bodybuilding?
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"Ray Gordon" <[email protected] > wrote in message news:[email protected]... > With computers having all but solved the game, are the strongest players > simply going to be those who train the best against maximum machine > resistance? > > Looks that way. > [snip] Do you get paid for the hits to the sites you plug in your sig...or do you own them? LSD
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