Goring Gambit position

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Date: 27 May 2006 20:08:25
From: Ron
Subject: Goring Gambit position

My repetioire is repeatedly steering my opponents into this position:

r2q1rk1/ppp1nppp/2npb3/2bN2B1/2B1P3/5N2/PP3PPP/R2Q1RK1 w - - 0 10

The thematic move move here is 10.b4, which most sources evaluate as
+/=, sometimes giving the following variation:

10.b4 Bxd5 11.exd5 Nxb4 12.Rb1

White threatens 13.a3. However, it's black to move, and I'm struggling
to see a real advantage against the following variations:

12. ... b5! 13.Bxb5 Nxb5 14.Re1 h6!

or

12. ... h6! 13.Bxe7 Qxe7 14.a3 Na6 15.Rxb7 Nb8 which looks about =,
since black is still up a pawn, even though his development is a mess.

Does anybody have any examples in these two lines (or other positions
after 10.b4). I'm also exploring 10.Qd2 here.

-Ron

Date: 31 May 2006 05:35:55
From:
Subject: Re: Goring Gambit position

For the convenience of people reading this thread, I've created an
image of your position in ChessUp:

http://chessup.net/result.php?fen=r2q1rk1/ppp1nppp/2npb3/2bN2B1/2B1P3/5N2/PP3PPP/R2Q1RK1

Ron wrote:
> My repetioire is repeatedly steering my opponents into this position:
>
> r2q1rk1/ppp1nppp/2npb3/2bN2B1/2B1P3/5N2/PP3PPP/R2Q1RK1 w - - 0 10
>
> The thematic move move here is 10.b4, which most sources evaluate as
> +/=, sometimes giving the following variation:
>
> 10.b4 Bxd5 11.exd5 Nxb4 12.Rb1
>
> White threatens 13.a3. However, it's black to move, and I'm struggling
> to see a real advantage against the following variations:
>
> 12. ... b5! 13.Bxb5 Nxb5 14.Re1 h6!
>
> or
>
> 12. ... h6! 13.Bxe7 Qxe7 14.a3 Na6 15.Rxb7 Nb8 which looks about =,
> since black is still up a pawn, even though his development is a mess.
>
> Does anybody have any examples in these two lines (or other positions
> after 10.b4). I'm also exploring 10.Qd2 here.
>
> -Ron

Date: 28 May 2006 15:29:01
From: chasmad
Subject: Re: Goring Gambit position

Ron wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> Antonio Torrecillas <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Hello Ron and Charles,
> >
> > After 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. d4 exd4 4. c3 dxc3 5. Nxc3 Bc5 6. Bc4 d6 7.
> > Bg5 Nge7 8.Nd5 Be6 9. O-O O-O the move 10.Nf6!? Keres suggested seems
> > very interesting.
> >
> > I have studied this position with the help of my Fritz8 but I have no
> > obtained a conclusive evaluation.
> >
> > After 10.Nf6 gxf6 11.Bxf6 I think 11... Bxc4 can not be the best move
> > because 12.Ng5!! h6 13.Qh5 which seems to lead to white advantage.
> >
> > But black has 11...h6 12.Ng5 hg5 13.Qh5 Ng6 and I have problems to
> > evaluate correctly that position =BFmaybe unclear?
>
> The problem is that black may be able to decline it safely:
>
> 10. ... Kh8! 11.Nh4 Bxc4 12.Qh5 h6 13.Bxh6 g6 14.Qg5 Bd4! (Acers &
> Laven) looks like it gives black an advantage.

Oh, all of this is from the Acers book. Hadn't thought to look there.

11.Nh4 looks wrong to me -- it deprives the queen of an important
square -- even though Jude gives it an exclam.
>
> Crafty likes 14. Nxg6 as an improvement: fg 15.Qh4 Nf5 16.ef Rxf56
> 17.Bg5+ & Qxc4.

What about 17.fxg6!? Does Black have anything better than 17...Rxg6
(17...Rxf2 doesn't work) 18.Bg5+ Kg7 19.Bxd8 Bxf1 20.Bg5...? Black
achieves a slight material advantage but his king is in the open.

> The ultimate evaluation of this position is beyond my
> abilities: black get two pieces for a rook and and pawn, but the black
> king is vulnerable and it's easy to see white's kingside (eventual)
> passed pawns being more valuable than black's central passer.
>
> Acers and Laven give (after 11.Bxc4) 12.Qc1! Qd7 13.Qg5+ Ng6 14.Qh7,
> winning, and giving back the queen with 12. ... Ng6 doesn't work after
> 13.Bxd8 Bxf1 14.Bf6!
>
> I'd written off this line because of black's ability to decline the sac,
> but I want to look more at the position after 14. Nxg6 (which I hadn't
> seen until now).=20
>=20
> -Ron

Charles

Date: 28 May 2006 11:38:15
From: chasmad
Subject: Re: Goring Gambit position

Antonio Torrecillas wrote:
> Hello Ron and Charles,
>
> After 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. d4 exd4 4. c3 dxc3 5. Nxc3 Bc5 6. Bc4 d6 7.
> Bg5 Nge7 8.Nd5 Be6 9. O-O O-O the move 10.Nf6!? Keres suggested seems
> very interesting.
>
This is slightly off the subject, but I thought that Smyslov's 5...Bb4
had pretty much put the straight Goring Gambit (with 5.Nc3) out of
business. Has there been a new discovery somewhere? A few decades
ago, White tried to save the line by playing a "revised" Goring with
5.Bc4 (at least it prevents 5...Bc5 because of 6.Bxf7+). Has 5.Bc4
been refuted?

Charles

Date: 28 May 2006 20:04:43
From: Ron
Subject: Re: Goring Gambit position

In article <[email protected] >,
"chasmad" <[email protected] > wrote:

> This is slightly off the subject, but I thought that Smyslov's 5...Bb4
> had pretty much put the straight Goring Gambit (with 5.Nc3) out of
> business. Has there been a new discovery somewhere? A few decades
> ago, White tried to save the line by playing a "revised" Goring with
> 5.Bc4 (at least it prevents 5...Bc5 because of 6.Bxf7+). Has 5.Bc4
> been refuted?

You can reach the Goring Gambit by a variety of move orders, some of
which don't allow the Bb4 defense.

For example, 1e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.d4 ed 5.c3.

Of course, this allows black some other options, but in practice I've
found black plays to here and plays 5. ... dxc3 more often than not.

-Ron

Date: 28 May 2006 02:59:24
From:
Subject: Re: Goring Gambit position

Ron ha escrito:

> My repetioire is repeatedly steering my opponents into this position:
>
> r2q1rk1/ppp1nppp/2npb3/2bN2B1/2B1P3/5N2/PP3PPP/R2Q1RK1 w - - 0 10
>
> The thematic move move here is 10.b4, which most sources evaluate as
> +/=, sometimes giving the following variation:
>
> 10.b4 Bxd5 11.exd5 Nxb4 12.Rb1
>
> White threatens 13.a3. However, it's black to move, and I'm struggling
> to see a real advantage against the following variations:
>
> 12. ... b5! 13.Bxb5 Nxb5 14.Re1 h6!
>
> or
>
> 12. ... h6! 13.Bxe7 Qxe7 14.a3 Na6 15.Rxb7 Nb8 which looks about =,
> since black is still up a pawn, even though his development is a mess.
>
> Does anybody have any examples in these two lines (or other positions
> after 10.b4). I'm also exploring 10.Qd2 here.
>
> -Ron

The only game I have is Mieses-Salwe where white played 12.a3 Na6
13.Tb1 which seem playable for white

Date: 28 May 2006 12:02:38
From: Antonio Torrecillas
Subject: Re: Goring Gambit position

En/na [email protected] ha escrit:
> Ron ha escrito:
>>My repetioire is repeatedly steering my opponents into this position:
>>
>>r2q1rk1/ppp1nppp/2npb3/2bN2B1/2B1P3/5N2/PP3PPP/R2Q1RK1 w - - 0 10
>>
>>The thematic move move here is 10.b4, which most sources evaluate as
>>+/=, sometimes giving the following variation: (...)
>>
>
> The only game I have is Mieses-Salwe where white played 12.a3 Na6
> 13.Tb1 which seem playable for white

The complete game

[Event "Karlsbad"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "1907.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Mieses, J."]
[Black "Salwe, G."]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "C44"]
[PlyCount "124"]
[EventDate "1907.??.??"]

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. d4 exd4 4. c3 dxc3 5. Nxc3 Bc5 6. Bc4 d6 7. Bg5
Nge7 8.Nd5 Be6 9. O-O O-O 10. b4 Bxd5 11. exd5 Nxb4 12. a3 Na6 13. Rb1
Bb6 14. Qe2 f6 15. Be3 Bxe3 16. Bxa6 Bb6 17. Bxb7 Rb8 18. Ba6 Ng6 19.Bb5
f5 20. Qd2 Qf6 21.Ng5 f4 22. Ne6 Rf7 23. Rb3 Ne5 24. Kh1 h6 25. f3 Qh4
26. Bd3 Re8 27. Bb1 g6 28.a4 a5 29. Qe2 Kh7 30. Rc1 Ree7 31. Qe4 Bf2
32.Rbc3 c5 33. dxc6 Rxe6 34. c7 Ng4 35. fxg4 Rxe4 36. c8=Q Ree7 37. Rh3
Qf6 38. Ba2 Rf8 39. Qc4 Qe5 40. Rf1 Bc5 41.Rhf3 Qe2 42. Qd5 Kg7 43. h3
Ree8 44. g3 h5 45. gxh5 fxg3 46. Rf7+ Kh6 47. Qg2 Qxg2+ 48. Kxg2 Bf2
49.hxg6 Kxg6 50. Rxf8 Rxf8 51. Rd1 Rf6 52. Bb1+ Kh6 53. Rd5 Be1 54. Rd1
Re6 55. Kf3 Kg7 56. Bf5 Re5 57. Be4 Bf2 58. Bc6 Re3+ 59. Kg2 Re2
60. Rxd6 $4 {60.Kf3=} 60... Bc5+ 61. Kf3 g2 62. Rd1 Rb2 0-1

Date: 28 May 2006 02:40:29
From: chasmad
Subject: Re: Goring Gambit position

Ron wrote:
> My repetioire is repeatedly steering my opponents into this position:
>
> r2q1rk1/ppp1nppp/2npb3/2bN2B1/2B1P3/5N2/PP3PPP/R2Q1RK1 w - - 0 10
>
> The thematic move move here is 10.b4, which most sources evaluate as
> +/=, sometimes giving the following variation:
>
> 10.b4 Bxd5 11.exd5 Nxb4 12.Rb1
>
> White threatens 13.a3. However, it's black to move, and I'm struggling
> to see a real advantage against the following variations:
>
> 12. ... b5! 13.Bxb5 Nxb5 14.Re1 h6!
>
> or
>
> 12. ... h6! 13.Bxe7 Qxe7 14.a3 Na6 15.Rxb7 Nb8 which looks about =,
> since black is still up a pawn, even though his development is a mess.
>
> Does anybody have any examples in these two lines (or other positions
> after 10.b4). I'm also exploring 10.Qd2 here.

If I've decoded your notation correctly, this position is the exact one
examined on pp. 101-102 of Eric Schiller's "How to Play the Goring
Gambit" (Chess Enterprises, 1997). Instead of 10.b4, as originally
played in Mieses-Salwe, Carlsbad 1907, Schiller offers a suggestion of
Keres: 10.Nf6+!! gxf6 11.Bxf6 Bxc4 12.Qc1 "and it is hard to find a
defense for Black, for example 12...Ng6 13.Bxd8 Bxf1 14.Bf6!"

I suppose Black can decline the knight with 10...Kh8, but then White
can continue in beserker fashion with 11.Ne5, threatening 12.Qh5. The
knight sac certainly looks like a good try in an otherwise
problematical position (Mieses eventually lost after 10.b4).
>
> -Ron

Charles

Date: 28 May 2006 18:44:33
From: Antonio Torrecillas
Subject: Re: Goring Gambit position

En/na chasmad ha escrit:
> Ron wrote:
>
>>My repetioire is repeatedly steering my opponents into this position:
>>
>>r2q1rk1/ppp1nppp/2npb3/2bN2B1/2B1P3/5N2/PP3PPP/R2Q1RK1 w - - 0 10
>>
>>The thematic move move here is 10.b4, which most sources evaluate as
>>+/=, sometimes giving the following variation: (...)
>>
>
> If I've decoded your notation correctly, this position is the exact one
> examined on pp. 101-102 of Eric Schiller's "How to Play the Goring
> Gambit" (Chess Enterprises, 1997). Instead of 10.b4, as originally
> played in Mieses-Salwe, Carlsbad 1907, Schiller offers a suggestion of
> Keres: 10.Nf6+!! gxf6 11.Bxf6 Bxc4 12.Qc1 "and it is hard to find a
> defense for Black, for example 12...Ng6 13.Bxd8 Bxf1 14.Bf6!"
>
> I suppose Black can decline the knight with 10...Kh8, but then White
> can continue in beserker fashion with 11.Ne5, threatening 12.Qh5. The
> knight sac certainly looks like a good try in an otherwise
> problematical position (Mieses eventually lost after 10.b4).
>
> Charles

Hello Ron and Charles,

After 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. d4 exd4 4. c3 dxc3 5. Nxc3 Bc5 6. Bc4 d6 7.
Bg5 Nge7 8.Nd5 Be6 9. O-O O-O the move 10.Nf6!? Keres suggested seems
very interesting.

I have studied this position with the help of my Fritz8 but I have no
obtained a conclusive evaluation.

After 10.Nf6 gxf6 11.Bxf6 I think 11... Bxc4 can not be the best move
because 12.Ng5!! h6 13.Qh5 which seems to lead to white advantage.

But black has 11...h6 12.Ng5 hg5 13.Qh5 Ng6 and I have problems to
evaluate correctly that position �maybe unclear?

Antonio T.

Date: 28 May 2006 19:49:05
From: Ron
Subject: Re: Goring Gambit position

In article <[email protected] >,
Antonio Torrecillas <[email protected] > wrote:

> Hello Ron and Charles,
>
> After 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. d4 exd4 4. c3 dxc3 5. Nxc3 Bc5 6. Bc4 d6 7.
> Bg5 Nge7 8.Nd5 Be6 9. O-O O-O the move 10.Nf6!? Keres suggested seems
> very interesting.
>
> I have studied this position with the help of my Fritz8 but I have no
> obtained a conclusive evaluation.
>
> After 10.Nf6 gxf6 11.Bxf6 I think 11... Bxc4 can not be the best move
> because 12.Ng5!! h6 13.Qh5 which seems to lead to white advantage.
>
> But black has 11...h6 12.Ng5 hg5 13.Qh5 Ng6 and I have problems to
> evaluate correctly that position �maybe unclear?

The problem is that black may be able to decline it safely:

10. ... Kh8! 11.Nh4 Bxc4 12.Qh5 h6 13.Bxh6 g6 14.Qg5 Bd4! (Acers &
Laven) looks like it gives black an advantage.

Crafty likes 14. Nxg6 as an improvement: fg 15.Qh4 Nf5 16.ef Rxf56
17.Bg5+ & Qxc4. The ultimate evaluation of this position is beyond my
abilities: black get two pieces for a rook and and pawn, but the black
king is vulnerable and it's easy to see white's kingside (eventual)
passed pawns being more valuable than black's central passer.

Acers and Laven give (after 11.Bxc4) 12.Qc1! Qd7 13.Qg5+ Ng6 14.Qh7,
winning, and giving back the queen with 12. ... Ng6 doesn't work after
13.Bxd8 Bxf1 14.Bf6!

I'd written off this line because of black's ability to decline the sac,
but I want to look more at the position after 14. Nxg6 (which I hadn't
seen until now).

-Ron

Date: 28 May 2006 22:17:38
From: Antonio Torrecillas
Subject: Re: Goring Gambit position

En/na Ron ha escrit:

> In article <[email protected]>,
> Antonio Torrecillas <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Hello Ron and Charles,
>>
>>After 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. d4 exd4 4. c3 dxc3 5. Nxc3 Bc5 6. Bc4 d6 7.
>>Bg5 Nge7 8.Nd5 Be6 9. O-O O-O the move 10.Nf6!? Keres suggested seems
>>very interesting.
>>
>>I have studied this position with the help of my Fritz8 but I have no
>>obtained a conclusive evaluation.
>>
>>After 10.Nf6 gxf6 11.Bxf6 I think 11... Bxc4 can not be the best move
>>because 12.Ng5!! h6 13.Qh5 which seems to lead to white advantage.
>>
>>But black has 11...h6 12.Ng5 hg5 13.Qh5 Ng6 and I have problems to
>>evaluate correctly that position �maybe unclear?
> (...)
> Acers and Laven give (after 11.Bxc4) 12.Qc1! Qd7 13.Qg5+ Ng6 14.Qh7,
> winning, and giving back the queen with 12. ... Ng6 doesn't work after
> 13.Bxd8 Bxf1 14.Bf6!
>
> I'd written off this line because of black's ability to decline the sac,
> but I want to look more at the position after 14. Nxg6 (which I hadn't
> seen until now).
>
> -Ron

I also considered (after 10.Nf6 gxf6 11.Bxf6 Bxc4 ) 12.Qc1?! but I think
that after 12...Bd4! white obtain less advantage than after 12.Ng5!

I agree that 10...Kh8! is better (but I can be wrong and some hours
analysis are needed) and 11.Ne5 as proposed originally seems to lead to
an equal position after 11.Ne5 Nxe6 12.Qh5 h6 13.Bh6 gf6 14.Bg5 Kg8
15.Bf6 N5g6 16.Qh6 Nf5 17.Qg5 Ne7 =

Antonio