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Date: 30 Oct 2006 00:19:52
From: Sanny
Subject: GetClub Game Development Stopped due to Money
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Now, I am feeling uncertain about the GetClub Game Development. It is taking lot of money, While the response of players was not so good as was predicted 6 months back. We need atleast $100- $200/month to keep improving the Game. Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html Now, we will not invest our Time and Money in Developing this Chess game further. As we are not getting back what we are investing. We are loosing our Fresh Money that we earned by hard work. However if any of the Rich Player want the Game to Progress and play good enough, their support is appriciated. We are looking for support from the Players. You just need to buy Games from site. Purchase More Games at: http://www.getclub.com/Secured/Purchase_Games.php?Game=10.00 If we collect atleast $100- $200 / month we can Sustain the GetClub Chess with further improvements. It is very difficult to improve the Game without getting Money back. If you want further Improvements in GetClub Chess Game, buy our Games that will help us improve this game. Purchase Chess Games at: http://www.getclub.com/Secured/Purchase_Games.php?Game=10.00 Currently the game plays good enough to be played as a free Game. But further improvements can come only when we get back enough Money for further Improvements. Bye Sanny Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
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Date: 03 Nov 2006 02:22:35
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: A Little Improvement Done.
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> As far as the "tab" key goes, I rarely use it. In fact, > I quite often catch myself using the notebook > equivalent of a mouse, where the tab key would have > been quicker and simpler. It's an old habit I developed > back when I was using a desktop computer, and the > mouse did everything but type out text. As I said, I > did not click the "resign game" button; I was reading > in another tab at the time the game ended abruptly, > opening a new browser where the game could be > replayed. It did not signal that it had moved by > playing a sound, so I had no reason to stop reading > and switch to the GetClub tab. As you can see, I > was about to deliver checkmate in two or three > more moves. That Game was Cancelled and your Ratings were Updated to Previous Values. Bye Sanny Play Chess at: http://www.getclub.com/Chess.html
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Date: 02 Nov 2006 23:13:42
From: help bot
Subject: Re: A Little Improvement Done.
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Sanny wrote: > > A while back, we were advised to not have multiple > > browsers open because this slows the program down > > too much, so I started using a single (Firefox) browser, > > utilizing the "tabs" feature to switch back and forth > > when I hear the sound signalling that the program has > > moved. I don't see much of a difference in speed, but > > I suppose it is likely my computer's "resources" are > > used more efficiently with tabs instead of multiple > > browser instances. > > Play Chess at: http://www.getclub.com/Chess.html > > Using Tabs get result in error. > > Say instead of Pressing Tab Twice and It points to another button. I > always use mouse clicks as it will always press the buttonm where it is > pointing to. > > In using Tabs (Keyboard Interface) Sometimes we press ENTER KEYS while > wrong Button is selected. > > In XP While Shut Down I never use tabs as It is always unclear which > button is currently selected. Sanny, the old Internet Explorer lacked this new feature (which Firefox has had for some time), but the new one will have it. In fact, the new IE is out now, and it has tabs. I am not certain exactly how this works, but with tabs you can switch between multiple windows in the same browser, instead of running several instances of that browser, each with just one "window". Each of these tabs represents a seperate window in the browser. As far as the "tab" key goes, I rarely use it. In fact, I quite often catch myself using the notebook equivalent of a mouse, where the tab key would have been quicker and simpler. It's an old habit I developed back when I was using a desktop computer, and the mouse did everything but type out text. As I said, I did not click the "resign game" button; I was reading in another tab at the time the game ended abruptly, opening a new browser where the game could be replayed. It did not signal that it had moved by playing a sound, so I had no reason to stop reading and switch to the GetClub tab. As you can see, I was about to deliver checkmate in two or three more moves. ----------- I saw the post about the prize winners for October, and thought I'd have a look at Zebediah's games to see if he was any good. The very first game I looked at (and I stopped there) had him playing the master level. Everything was going normally, when I noticed that your program was about to get forked and lose a piece. Sure enough, Zebediah moved his Queen to threaten mate on the move, AND a loose Bishop. But instead of defending against the instant mate, your program just ignored that threat -- and this was on the master level! What's up with that? I just don't understand what sort of programming it is that allows a shallow tactical threat like this to slip by. The one strength of computers in chess is supposed to be short-range tactics, where they *never* overlook the obvious (unlike humans). In this one case, I would have to say that you would have done better to use the simplest program possible, just add up the values of the men and see which move leads to the smallest loss. K=100, Q=10, R=5, B=3, N=3, p=1 Clearly, on master level the program ought to be able to "see" several plys deep in all variations, and even if you got the piece values all wrong, so long as the King is overweighted, the program will t least *try* to avoid mate! -- help bot
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Date: 02 Nov 2006 04:53:44
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: A Little Improvement Done.
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> A while back, we were advised to not have multiple > browsers open because this slows the program down > too much, so I started using a single (Firefox) browser, > utilizing the "tabs" feature to switch back and forth > when I hear the sound signalling that the program has > moved. I don't see much of a difference in speed, but > I suppose it is likely my computer's "resources" are > used more efficiently with tabs instead of multiple > browser instances. Play Chess at: http://www.getclub.com/Chess.html Using Tabs get result in error. Say instead of Pressing Tab Twice and It points to another button. I always use mouse clicks as it will always press the buttonm where it is pointing to. In using Tabs (Keyboard Interface) Sometimes we press ENTER KEYS while wrong Button is selected. In XP While Shut Down I never use tabs as It is always unclear which button is currently selected. Bye Sanny Play Chess at: http://www.getclub.com/Chess.html
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Date: 02 Nov 2006 15:33:24
From: Chris F.A. Johnson
Subject: Re: A Little Improvement Done.
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On 2006-11-02, Sanny wrote: >> A while back, we were advised to not have multiple >> browsers open because this slows the program down >> too much, so I started using a single (Firefox) browser, >> utilizing the "tabs" feature to switch back and forth >> when I hear the sound signalling that the program has >> moved. I don't see much of a difference in speed, but >> I suppose it is likely my computer's "resources" are >> used more efficiently with tabs instead of multiple >> browser instances. > > Play Chess at: http://www.getclub.com/Chess.html > > Using Tabs get result in error. > > Say instead of Pressing Tab Twice and It points to another button. I > always use mouse clicks as it will always press the buttonm where it is > pointing to. He is not talking about the TAB key, but about browser tabs, in which several web pages are accessible within a single window by clicking on a tab at the top of the window. -- Chris F.A. Johnson <http://cfaj.freeshell.org > =================================================================== Author: Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress)
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Date: 02 Nov 2006 03:05:12
From: help bot
Subject: Re: A Little Improvement Done.
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Tony M wrote: > I made an earlier post recommending that Sanny look at the source of > the Java version of TCSP for an idea on implementing a time control so > that a program plays in exactly x number of seconds. I made the > recommendation because TSCP handles it in a simple way, and in only > about a dozen lines of code. > > In Java/chess programming speak (help bot, you may want to skip this > paragraph, it's hellaciously geeky), TSCP puts the entire root search (root search: this is what rabbits do when looking for carrots) > in a try block (try block: a block with precisely three sides) >, checks for a timeout (timeout: what you put your kids in when they misbehave) > every 1024 nodes (nodes: similar to nematodes, but without the emats) > (both in the alpha/beta (Alpha beta is a large grocery store chain.) > and quiescence search), throws an exception (An "exception" is any pitch which is not a fastball, curve, or screwball) > when a timeout > is reached, and plays the best move found so far when it catches the > exception (easier said than done!) >, after taking back whatever moves that it made (see for example, Kasparov vs. J. Polgar) > during the search when it timed out. It might not be the most > elegant way to do things, but it works well enough. (Point taken. Kasparov 1, Polgar 0) > Just to make it clear, it's not my intent to belittle Sanny and his > efforts. I know from personal experience how hard it is to write a > bug-free chess program, and how bugs can sap the strength of a > program. He's improved the quality of play over the last little > while, to the point where it plays reasonably well for a Java applet. > I'm a fan of all chess programs, big and small, and would just like to > see Sanny's program be exactly what he advertises it to be. Things are tough all over. Sanny needs people to buy games in order to finance further improvements, but they are unlikely to do so unless and until these improvements are implemented. Zugzwang. (That's geek-speak for "any move loses"). -- help bot
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Date: 02 Nov 2006 01:54:24
From: help bot
Subject: Re: A Little Improvement Done.
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Sanny wrote: > > In my last few games, I noticed a disappearing, > > incomplete game, which didn't bother me much since > > these games are hardly world class anyway. I suspect > > Chess game at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html > > This happens when by mistake you Press "Resign Game" Button. > > Or you have "Resign Game" button Selected and you Press any of the two > ENTER KEYS. > > Never Press Resign Game Button as it means you want to Resign the Game > as you are loosing. How is it possible to have the "resign game" button *selected* when I am in another tab? And even if this is possible, hitting "enter" in another tab should have no effect in the GetClub tab, which is not the active tab, but is merely running in the background. A while back, we were advised to not have multiple browsers open because this slows the program down too much, so I started using a single (Firefox) browser, utilizing the "tabs" feature to switch back and forth when I hear the sound signalling that the program has moved. I don't see much of a difference in speed, but I suppose it is likely my computer's "resources" are used more efficiently with tabs instead of multiple browser instances. BTW, a while back there was a complaint that your site all too frequently pops up a new window whenever it moves; the window I'm talking about is the player's "home page", and it happens with my browser, too. It's a bit scary, since there is a tendency to assume the program has "detected" mate coming and is resigning -- many moves in advance. Imagine the feeling of defeating a chess program which can "see" itself getting checkmated, say, ten or more moves in advance via brute force. Very scary. One thing I have noticed about GetClub is that, unlike some programs, it does not grab your man mid-air and decide for you where you are going to put it down. This has been a problem for me in the past, but Sanny's program lets *you* decide by waiting for you to click on the destination square. Obviously, the program could easily win far more games if it were not programmed to let the players decide regarding their own moves. -- help bot
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Date: 02 Nov 2006 01:23:34
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: A Little Improvement Done.
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> In my last few games, I noticed a disappearing, > incomplete game, which didn't bother me much since > these games are hardly world class anyway. I suspect Chess game at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html This happens when by mistake you Press "Resign Game" Button. Or you have "Resign Game" button Selected and you Press any of the two ENTER KEYS. Never Press Resign Game Button as it means you want to Resign the Game as you are loosing. Bye Sanny Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
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Date: 01 Nov 2006 21:56:20
From: help bot
Subject: Re: A Little Improvement Done.
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Sanny wrote: > > Sanny, the fastest way to increase your monetary intake > > would be to focus on improving the speed -- not the depth -- > > Yes The game Speed has been Improved as you Adviced. > > It was easier earlier to improve the game earlier, Now it is very hard > to even get it better by a factor of 2. > > Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html > > Earlier Each Month GetClub Chess used to play twice faster. > > But Now it takes 3 Months to make it twice Faster. > > Now it is very hard even to understand how the Program is Thinking, So > it is very diffuclt to modify it further. > > However if you want further Improvements, Just send me the Recorded > Game with Analysis of the Wrong Moves. > > Here is how it Plays Now. > > Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html > > Beginner Level: 10-20 Seconds > Easy Level: 30-40 Seconds > Normal Level: 1-2 Minutes Well, that may be true for others, but on my computer the program re-re-re-analyses positions such that a good deal of time is wasted. It also takes much longer on certain moves than others, but again, this could be a problem on my end, not yours. In my last few games, I noticed a disappearing, incomplete game, which didn't bother me much since these games are hardly world class anyway. I suspect it happenned because I allowed too much time to elapse before resuming. But my very last game was ended abruptly, with my new game total showing that I had lost! How I could lose is beyong my powers of imagination, for I was very close to delivering checkmate and had already won the computer's Queen for a Bishop. At the time, I had another tab open and was reading in it when the usual new browser window suddenly appeared -- you know, the one where I get to replay all my brilliant moves which led up to the win. Only this time it was (I assume) a loss, yet all my windows were frozen and I had to shut down and reboot. In any case, anyone who plays the program on whatever level that game was will get some extra rating points due to this freak error. -- help bot
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Date: 02 Nov 2006 10:24:59
From: Tony M
Subject: Re: A Little Improvement Done.
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On 1 Nov 2006 21:56:20 -0800, "help bot" <[email protected] > wrote: > >Sanny wrote: >> > Sanny, the fastest way to increase your monetary intake >> > would be to focus on improving the speed -- not the depth -- >> >> Yes The game Speed has been Improved as you Adviced. >> >> It was easier earlier to improve the game earlier, Now it is very hard >> to even get it better by a factor of 2. >> >> Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html >> >> Earlier Each Month GetClub Chess used to play twice faster. >> >> But Now it takes 3 Months to make it twice Faster. >> >> Now it is very hard even to understand how the Program is Thinking, So >> it is very diffuclt to modify it further. >> >> However if you want further Improvements, Just send me the Recorded >> Game with Analysis of the Wrong Moves. >> >> Here is how it Plays Now. >> >> Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html >> >> Beginner Level: 10-20 Seconds >> Easy Level: 30-40 Seconds >> Normal Level: 1-2 Minutes > > > Well, that may be true for others, but on my computer >the program re-re-re-analyses positions such that a good >deal of time is wasted. I've seen the number in the thinking output do funky things, too. Without looking at the source, it's hard to say whether Sanny has a bug in his search, or whether the program is merely giving incorrect thinking output, or whether the number is something other than actual search depth. The program doesn't product a lot of thinking output, but it's understandable for a pay site not to give a player too much info to work with. > It also takes much longer on >certain moves than others, but again, this could be a >problem on my end, not yours. > It's standard behavior for Sanny's program, from what I've seen. A highly tactical position, or a position with several equally good alternatives can cause a deep think. This is a result of not having a proper time control. It would be nice if Sanny got the time control to work correctly. It seems to be the most common complaint about his program (not necessarily from you, help bot, but in general), and it really would make the playing experience more enjoyable. Plus, people might be more willing to pay if they aren't getting frustrated by overly long thinking times. I made an earlier post recommending that Sanny look at the source of the Java version of TCSP for an idea on implementing a time control so that a program plays in exactly x number of seconds. I made the recommendation because TSCP handles it in a simple way, and in only about a dozen lines of code. In Java/chess programming speak (help bot, you may want to skip this paragraph, it's hellaciously geeky), TSCP puts the entire root search in a try block, checks for a timeout every 1024 nodes (both in the alpha/beta and quiescence search), throws an exception when a timeout is reached, and plays the best move found so far when it catches the exception, after taking back whatever moves that it made during the search when it timed out. It might not be the most elegant way to do things, but it works well enough. Just to make it clear, it's not my intent to belittle Sanny and his efforts. I know from personal experience how hard it is to write a bug-free chess program, and how bugs can sap the strength of a program. He's improved the quality of play over the last little while, to the point where it plays reasonably well for a Java applet. I'm a fan of all chess programs, big and small, and would just like to see Sanny's program be exactly what he advertises it to be. > In my last few games, I noticed a disappearing, >incomplete game, which didn't bother me much since >these games are hardly world class anyway. I suspect >it happenned because I allowed too much time to elapse >before resuming. But my very last game was ended >abruptly, with my new game total showing that I had >lost! How I could lose is beyong my powers of >imagination, for I was very close to delivering checkmate >and had already won the computer's Queen for a Bishop. >At the time, I had another tab open and was reading in >it when the usual new browser window suddenly >appeared -- you know, the one where I get to replay all >my brilliant moves which led up to the win. Only this >time it was (I assume) a loss, yet all my windows were >frozen and I had to shut down and reboot. In any case, >anyone who plays the program on whatever level that >game was will get some extra rating points due to this >freak error. > I'll let Sanny handle that one, no idea what's going on there. > -- help bot Tony
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Date: 01 Nov 2006 04:40:59
From: Sanny
Subject: A Little Improvement Done.
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> Sanny, the fastest way to increase your monetary intake > would be to focus on improving the speed -- not the depth -- Yes The game Speed has been Improved as you Adviced. It was easier earlier to improve the game earlier, Now it is very hard to even get it better by a factor of 2. Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html Earlier Each Month GetClub Chess used to play twice faster. But Now it takes 3 Months to make it twice Faster. Now it is very hard even to understand how the Program is Thinking, So it is very diffuclt to modify it further. However if you want further Improvements, Just send me the Recorded Game with Analysis of the Wrong Moves. Here is how it Plays Now. Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html Beginner Level: 10-20 Seconds Easy Level: 30-40 Seconds Normal Level: 1-2 Minutes Bye Sanny Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
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Date: 30 Oct 2006 21:42:54
From: help bot
Subject: Re: GetClub Game Development Stopped due to Money
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Sanny wrote: > > Currently the game plays good enough to be played as a free Game. But > > further improvements can come only when we get back enough Money for > > further Improvements. > > However Today a bit of improvement was done. So you will find a bit > faster and better Game Play. > > Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html (Faster Game) > > But further Improvents are Stopped till Lots of people Start Playing > and we get enough income to fund Improvements. Sanny, the fastest way to increase your monetary intake would be to focus on improving the speed -- not the depth -- of your program's responses. I have noticed that the displayed depth (assumming this is not merely a ploy) has improved dramatically, which would seem to indicate an improvement in strength of play. But what you really need to do *first* is get the response times on the lower levels down to under a minute per move, so players are not discouraged by the slowness of play. It's okay for the highest level(s) to take a long time for each move, but at least on the Beginner level a player ought to be able to play a game without switching to another browser to kill some time while waiting for the program to move in the middlegame. Another area which needs improvement is the handling of drawn games. You might try steering traffic to your Web site by an exchange of advertisements. For example, in exchange for a small ad for another Web site on yours, someone might be willing to place a small ad for yours, on theirs. Just an idea. Keep trying -- don't give up hope. (But remember, even with gazillions of dollars and hoardes of programmers, there is no way your program will ever be as good as I am at chess.) ; >D -- help bot
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Date: 30 Oct 2006 15:58:04
From: Nick
Subject: Re: GetClub Game Development Stopped due to Money
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Dave (from the UK) wrote: > Sanny wrote: > > Now, I am feeling uncertain about the GetClub Game Development. At least several writers in rec.games.chess.* have offered some good advice to Sanny about how to improve his chess engine. Sanny has 'responded' by ignoring their advice and sometimes also by insulting them. > > It is taking lot of money, While the response of players was > > not so good as was predicted 6 months back. Who, other than Sanny, predicted that? I *emphatically* told Sanny that his chess engine was the worst that I have ever seen, and I expected that it would be a commercial failure. > > We need at least $100- $200/month to keep > > improving the Game. Why is there any need 'to keep improving the Game'? Has not Sanny proclaimed many times that 'all problems have been rectified now'? > That's cheap !!! You have often posted mentioning a "team of > programmers". Where do you get a team of programmers for $100-=A3200 / > month? I would have thought that would be the rate of one competent > programmer for 1 day - not a team for a month. If you were a competent computer programmer, then would be desperate or foolish enough to work for Sanny? --Nick > > Now, we will not invest our Time and Money in Developing > > this Chess game further. > > Does that mean an end to the spam too? > > > Purchase More Games at: > > http://www.getclub.com/Secured/Purchase_Games.php?Game=3D10.00 > > Well, perhaps this will be the last post with all the spam - we can but > hope! > -- > Dave (from the UK) > > Please note my email address changes periodically to avoid spam. > It is always of the form: [email protected] > Hitting reply will work for a few months only - later set it manually. >=20 > http://witm.sourceforge.net/ (Web based Mathematica front end)
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Date: 30 Oct 2006 14:06:05
From: Dave (from the UK)
Subject: Re: GetClub Game Development Stopped due to Money
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Sanny wrote: > Now, I am feeling uncertain about the GetClub Game Development. It is > taking lot of money, While the response of players was not so good as > was predicted 6 months back. We need atleast $100- $200/month to keep > improving the Game. That's cheap !!! You have often posted mentioning a "team of programmers". Where do you get a team of programmers for $100-�200 / month? I would have thought that would be the rate of one competent programmer for 1 day - not a team for a month. > Now, we will not invest our Time and Money in Developing this Chess > game further. Does that mean an end to the spam too? > Purchase More Games at: > http://www.getclub.com/Secured/Purchase_Games.php?Game=10.00 Well, perhaps this will be the last post with all the spam - we can but hope! -- Dave (from the UK) Please note my email address changes periodically to avoid spam. It is always of the form: [email protected] Hitting reply will work for a few months only - later set it manually. http://witm.sourceforge.net/ (Web based Mathematica front end)
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Date: 30 Oct 2006 03:44:21
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: GetClub Game Development Stopped due to Money
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> Currently the game plays good enough to be played as a free Game. But > further improvements can come only when we get back enough Money for > further Improvements. However Today a bit of improvement was done. So you will find a bit faster and better Game Play. Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html (Faster Game) But further Improvents are Stopped till Lots of people Start Playing and we get enough income to fund Improvements. Bye Sanny Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
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