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Date: 10 Apr 2008 01:46:37
From: Sanny
Subject: GetClub Chess further improved as seen against Rybka !!!
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Today after studing 10-12 games of Beginner Level against Help Bot, I
found earlier GetClub was not defend its King properly. So a few
improvements were done in GetClub Chess to Save its King. As I saw
Help Bot easily taking the GetClubs King While Beginner was moving its
pieces at wromg places.
The game was much improved after this modification.
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
As an Example I played Against Rybka. Easy Level usually looses in 40
Moves against Rybka but this time It struggled till 50-60 Moves. The
game was unable to Complete as Rybka hanged after 48 Move. Still I
feel the game could have continued till 60 Moves.
Playing 60 Moves against Rybka is very difficult for any Player.
Usually Rybka Knocks you down in just 40 Moves.
Still Easy Level mantained good Position till 50-60 Moves That was
Great.
Here is the Game
Game Played between Rybka and easy at GetClub.com
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Rybka : (White)
easy: (Black)
Game Played at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
View Recorded Game: http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?id=DM19111&game=Chess
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
White -- Black
(Rybka) -- (easy)
1. d2-d4{10} Ng8-f6{0}
2. c2-c4{14} e7-e6{0}
3. Ng1-f3{16} Nf6-e4{22}
4. Qd1-d3{26} d7-d5{38}
5. Nb1-c3{282} Bf8-b4{0}
6. g2-g3{14} Nb8-c6{24}
7. Bf1-g2{18} Bc8-d7{42}
8. c4-d5{22} e6-d5{28}
9. Ke1-g1{16} Bb4-c3{24}
10. b2-c3{18} Ke8-g8{34}
11. Nf3-d2{20} f7-f5{30}
12. Nd2-e4{20} f5-e4{28}
13. Qd3-b5{16} Rf8-f5{22}
14. Qb5-b7{26} Ra8-b8{36}
15. Qb7-a6{18} Qd8-f8{42}
16. Qa6-a4{24} Qf8-f7{20}
17. Qa4-c2{28} Bd7-e6{30}
18. Ra1-b1{20} Rb8-e8{38}
19. h2-h4{28} h7-h6{24}
20. Rb1-b5{20} Rf5-f6{22}
21. Bc1-e3{30} Re8-c8{32}
22. c3-c4{20} Nc6-e7{34}
23. Be3-f4{24} Rf6-f4{22}
24. g3-f4{28} Qf7-f4{26}
25. c4-d5{14} Be6-d5{40}
26. Rb5-a5{16} Qf4-h4{22}
27. Ra5-a7{32} Ne7-c6{52}
28. Qc2-c5{24} Qh4-d8{22}
29. Ra7-a6{34} Nc6-b8{24}
30. Ra6-g6{22} Qd8-d7{40}
31. Bg2-h3{34} Qd7-f7{30}
32. Rg6-d6{24} c7-d6{22}
33. Qc5-c8{14} Qf7-f8{28}
34. Rf1-c1{18} e4-e3{24}
35. Qc8-f8{20} Kg8-f8{24}
36. Rc1-c8{12} Kf8-e7{20}
37. Rc8-b8{30} g7-g6{28}
38. a2-a4{20} Bd5-c6{20}
39. a4-a5{22} g6-g5{30}
40. Rb8-h8{22} h6-h5{26}
41. Rh8-h5{28} Ke7-f6{20}
42. Rh5-h6{22} Kf6-e7{38}
43. Rh6-e6{28} Ke7-d8{20}
44. Re6-d6{26} Kd8-c7{34}
45. Rd6-g6{18} g5-g4{38}
46. Bh3-g4{16} Bc6-e4{34}
47. Rg6-g7{16} Kc7-c6{34}
48. Bg4-d7{26} Kc6-d6{34} {Rybka Hanged So I have to stop the Game
here}
{I think Rybka would have continued till 60 Moves to win the Game.}
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Rybka : (White)
easy: (Black)
Game Played at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
View Recorded Game: http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?id=DM19111&game=Chess
So now Help Bot will find much more Opposition from even the Beginner
Level.
Help Bot, Tell me do you found the game getting a bit Tough now? Are
you now finding Beginner Level giving great challenge to you or not.
Incase you still find any problem in game let me know. For me this
improvement will make GetClub play much shatper than it used to
earlier.
Bye
Sanny
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
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Date: 17 Apr 2008 08:47:39
From: help bot
Subject: Re: GetClub Chess further improved as seen against Rybka !!!
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On Apr 17, 1:35 am, Sanny <[email protected] > wrote:
> > In fact above there was not a 3-fold repetition, it was a 7-fold
> > repetition of the same position.
>
> Yes, 7 fold repetition is not seen by it. And also It thinks Three
> moves repetition only when Computer has made three repition. Incase
> Human Opponents has made three fold repetition It do not make it a
> Draw.
>
> That needs to be corrected.
>
> If you are Strong Just win the game. Why are you loking for Draws? If
> you are weak just play with Beginner Level. As higher levels are much
> stronger.
Sanny, even a "strong" player can sometimes find
himself in a bad position. Take Frank Marshall, for
instance; a highly-rated player, this poor fellow is
remembered today for his Q-g3!!! move, and for the
fact that he repeatedly lost -- by clean scores -- to
such players as Em, Lasker and Jose Capablanca.
The point is not whether GetClub's opponents are
weak or strong; it relates to the actual rules of play!
The official rules by which we chess players must
abide (except maybe for sneaky cheaters) state
that a three-fold repetition of position, all things
being the same (en passant capture and castling
rights) and with the same side to move, allows a
draw to be claimed. In fact, they annoyingly insist
that such a claim must be made *before* making
the move in question. These pesky rules and
regulations are not necessarily endorsed or liked
by everyone; but they are necessary in order to
have a "game" like chess in the first place.
-- help bot
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Date: 16 Apr 2008 22:36:56
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: GetClub Chess further improved as seen against Rybka !!!
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> initiative, etc. =A0 Add in some problems with the
> contempt-factor causing "issues", and it is
> very possible that the GetClub program could
> start off losing virtually every such odds game
> to me. =A0Without the contempt-factor, I can just
> trade and win, thanks to my "free" pawn.
Could you tell me the weaknesses in the game. So that I may improve
the GetClub Chess further.
Bye
Sanny
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
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Date: 16 Apr 2008 22:35:09
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: GetClub Chess further improved as seen against Rybka !!!
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> > When GetClub is at advantage, I have told it to change its move So
> > that repetition with draw do not happen. So After 2 repetition it
> > changes its move to avoid draw.
>
> on move 86 (reptition number 1 is 87.Kf2, then 89.Kf2, then 91.Kf2, when
> making this move I should have had the option to claim a draw, then
> further reptitions: 93.Kf2, 95.Kf2, 97.Kf2, 99.Kf2, only then did the
> computer deviate):
> 8/8/8/4k3/8/4K1r1/7n/8 w
>
> In fact above there was not a 3-fold repetition, it was a 7-fold
> repetition of the same position.
Yes, 7 fold repetition is not seen by it. And also It thinks Three
moves repetition only when Computer has made three repition. Incase
Human Opponents has made three fold repetition It do not make it a
Draw.
That needs to be corrected.
If you are Strong Just win the game. Why are you loking for Draws? If
you are weak just play with Beginner Level. As higher levels are much
stronger.
Bye
Sanny
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
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Date: 13 Apr 2008 01:08:58
From: help bot
Subject: Re: GetClub Chess further improved as seen against Rybka !!!
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On Apr 13, 2:47 am, Sanny <[email protected] > wrote:
> Now if you think harder you can win Beginner with a Pawn odds.
>
> Easy Level can win you with a Pawn Odd. meaning if you have a extra
> pawn then your game will be equal to that of Easy Level.
>
> Here is the new Rating I give to all
>
> Beginner: 1900 (5-10 sec/ move)
> Easy: 2100 (20-30 sec/ move)
> Normal: 2300 (1-2 min/ move)
> Master: 2500 (5-10 min/ move)
It doesn't work like that. First of all, I am still
winning most of the games; the draw problem
nips me when I have gotten into lost positions,
while in winning positions, I can and do win. I
also still win a lot of drawable positions in the
endgame. (Okay, I botched *one* ending in
which I could have had a Q vs. B&N, with all
pawns on one side of the board. Instead, I
went for Q vs. R&N, thinking I had a forced
win of a pawn with check. GetClub defended
well and forced me to repeat the position.)
Secondly, as we saw with the pawn-and-move
odds match between Rybka and GM Roman
Dzindzichashvili, when you start the game up
a pawn the program can have severe problems
in trying to draw, let alone win. In fact, most of
RD's moves were aimed at trading pieces off, not
improving his position or fighting for the
initiative, etc. Add in some problems with the
contempt-factor causing "issues", and it is
very possible that the GetClub program could
start off losing virtually every such odds game
to me. Without the contempt-factor, I can just
trade and win, thanks to my "free" pawn.
Now, as for the 1900-2500 rating point range,
I think you are getting much closer but still,
these numbers are much too high. You will
know when the program reaches 2500 by the
fact that everybody will lose every game,
except those who merely operate another
chess program and enter the moves. Maybe
the low end is a fair estimate-- 1900 USCF,
but 2500 for Master level? In any case, you
should begin seeing a lot more wins now,
and as you already pointed out, more draws.
-- help bot
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Date: 12 Apr 2008 23:47:44
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: GetClub Chess further improved as seen against Rybka !!!
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> > No, it didn't beat me. It just declared the game won for itself for no
> > reason (except for being up on material). Looking at the game score it
> > clearly did not know how to win.
> > No, it does not win, it cheats and doesn't follow the rules.
>
I saw the Recorded game below
http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?id=3DDM19183&game=3DChess
The Beginner declared win as it saw a Mate in 4.
Last position was
White: K-d1
Black: K-f4, R-g2, N-e4
And it was Black to move. Black found Mate in 4 So declared itself a
win.
1. ... Ke3 2. Kc1 Kd3 3. Kb1 Nc3+ 4. Kc1 Rc2# (Mate in 4)
I analyzed with another computer and found a Mate in 4. Thats the
reasion GetClub gave itself a Win. I am happy to see GetClub was able
to see Mate in 4.
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
> =A0 At the end, there was no explanation of the
> result-- did Bjoem resign (or did the program
> detect a mate-in-twenty and forfeit him)? =A0My
> guess is he got fed up after it repeated the
> same position over and over, and clicked the
> "resigns" button several moves later when it
> became apparent that the program *did* know
> how to win; it was in fact forcing his King to
> the edge of the board, and using all of its men
> for the final assault (how odd!).
It was Mate in 4 as per analysis by other computer.
1. ... Ke3 2. Kc1 Kd3 3. Kb1 Nc3+ 4. Kc1 Rc2#
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
> =A0 TheGetClubprogram did work more-or-less
> correctly in two recent draws against me; but
> for all we know, it may have only done so
> because it thought it was "saving" an inferior
> position by granting the draw. =A0When ahead
Yes, I have seen many games wwhere Draw has come by repitition of
moves.
When GetClub is at advantage, I have told it to change its move So
that repetition with draw do not happen. So After 2 repetition it
changes its move to avoid draw.
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
> =A0 In another recent game, I noticed that it still
> moves its own King into check on the final
> move, rather than try and delay checkmate
> as long as possible like most programs.
Yes, When it finds a Mate in 3/ 4. It feels all moves are equally bad.
And it gives equal points to all moves and Since king has to die it
sometimes plays King into Check. But when it plays such move It has
already Resigned. User only sees such moves when looking at recorded
Games. Player never sees that move being made while playing.
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
>
> =A0 But there definitely seems to be a big
> improvement in its strength of play. =A0I will
> from now on be looking to trade the Queens
> off, to avoid getting "thumped" the way I was
> in the recent game where I saw no significant
> problem, but in fact walked into a very neat
> mating net. =A0Yowie-- I was actually outplayed
> by theGetClubprogram?!!! =A0LOL
Now if you think harder you can win Beginner with a Pawn odds.
Easy Level can win you with a Pawn Odd. meaning if you have a extra
pawn then your game will be equal to that of Easy Level.
Here is the new Rating I give to all
Beginner: 1900 (5-10 sec/ move)
Easy: 2100 (20-30 sec/ move)
Normal: 2300 (1-2 min/ move)
Master: 2500 (5-10 min/ move)
Bye
Sanny
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
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Date: 13 Apr 2008 09:19:43
From: Bjoern
Subject: Re: GetClub Chess further improved as seen against Rybka !!!
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Sanny wrote:
> I saw the Recorded game below
> http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?id=DM19183&game=Chess
>
> The Beginner declared win as it saw a Mate in 4.
It shouldn't do that, it should play out the mate, unless I resign.
>> TheGetClubprogram did work more-or-less
>>correctly in two recent draws against me; but
>>for all we know, it may have only done so
>>because it thought it was "saving" an inferior
>>position by granting the draw. When ahead
>
>
> Yes, I have seen many games wwhere Draw has come by repitition of
> moves.
>
> When GetClub is at advantage, I have told it to change its move So
> that repetition with draw do not happen. So After 2 repetition it
> changes its move to avoid draw.
It did not do that and the game in question was a draw according to the
repetition rule:
on move 86 (reptition number 1 is 87.Kf2, then 89.Kf2, then 91.Kf2, when
making this move I should have had the option to claim a draw, then
further reptitions: 93.Kf2, 95.Kf2, 97.Kf2, 99.Kf2, only then did the
computer deviate):
8/8/8/4k3/8/4K1r1/7n/8 w
(white king on e3, black king on e5, black knight on h2, black rook
checks on g3)
86. Ke3 Rg3+
87. Kf2 Rg8
88. Ke3 Rg3+
89. Kf2 Rg7
90. Ke3 Rg3+
91. Kf2 Rg8
92. Ke3 Rg3+
93. Kf2 Rg7
94. Ke3 Rg3+
95. Kf2 Rg8
96. Ke3 Rg3+
97. Kf2 Rg7
98. Ke3 Rg3+
99. Kf2 Rg8
100. Ke3 Ng4+
101. Kf3 Kf6
102. Kf4 Nh6
103. Ke4 Rd8
104. Kf4 Rd6
105. Ke4 Nf7
106. Kf4 Kg6
107. Ke4 Ng5+
108. Kf4 Rd5
109. Ke3 Kf5
110. Kf2 Rd3
111. Ke2 Rg3
112. Kf2 Ne4+
113. Ke2 Kf4
114. Kd1 Rg2
Here the computer stopped to play, hence obviously he resigned ;).
In fact above there was not a 3-fold repetition, it was a 7-fold
repetition of the same position.
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Date: 12 Apr 2008 19:11:47
From: help bot
Subject: Re: GetClub Chess further improved as seen against Rybka !!!
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On Apr 12, 4:48 pm, Bjoern <[email protected] > wrote:
> > I saw your game where Beginner beat you after a very difficult match.
>
> No, it didn't beat me. It just declared the game won for itself for no
> reason (except for being up on material). Looking at the game score it
> clearly did not know how to win.
> No, it does not win, it cheats and doesn't follow the rules.
I played over that game and I believe there may
well have been several repetitions of position; I
was surprised when the GetClub program finally
varied and went on to actually make headway.
At the end, there was no explanation of the
result-- did Bjoem resign (or did the program
detect a mate-in-twenty and forfeit him)? My
guess is he got fed up after it repeated the
same position over and over, and clicked the
"resigns" button several moves later when it
became apparent that the program *did* know
how to win; it was in fact forcing his King to
the edge of the board, and using all of its men
for the final assault (how odd!).
The GetClub program did work more-or-less
correctly in two recent draws against me; but
for all we know, it may have only done so
because it thought it was "saving" an inferior
position by granting the draw. When ahead
in material, the program seems far more
reluctant to work properly in granting draws.
I have "resigned" many of these, in order to
just be able to play more games and not be
stuck in repetition-hell for all eternity.
In another recent game, I noticed that it still
moves its own King into check on the final
move, rather than try and delay checkmate
as long as possible like most programs.
But there definitely seems to be a big
improvement in its strength of play. I will
from now on be looking to trade the Queens
off, to avoid getting "thumped" the way I was
in the recent game where I saw no significant
problem, but in fact walked into a very neat
mating net. Yowie-- I was actually outplayed
by the GetClub program?!!! LOL
-- help bot
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Date: 11 Apr 2008 21:44:01
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: GetClub Chess further improved as seen against Rybka !!!
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On Apr 11, 11:59=A0pm, Bjoern <[email protected] > wrote:
> Sanny wrote:
> > The game was much improved after this modification.
>
> Maybe the next improvement could be that it follows the rules? It still
> can't do that properly. E.g. the three-fold repetition rule or the
> 50-move rule?
Yes, it do not have 50 move rule. Incase it has insufficient material
it will however automatically give Draw. Only when it has Rook + then
it will try to win the game.
I saw your game where Beginner beat you after a very difficult match.
Remember those days when you used to even beat the Master Level. Now
you will have to struggle very hard to win even against the Beginner
Level.
However it follows three fold repitition draw. You cann see today a
game played between Help Bot and Beginner which resulted in draw.
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
Today out of Three games played against Beginner.
Beginner Lost 1/ 3 Games [against Help Bot]. Draw 1/ 3 Games [against
Help Bot] and won 1/ 3 Games [against Bonsai]
So it lost only once. Now Help Bot will see a lot of games where
Beginner will win against him or atleast have a Drawn game.
Bye
Sanny
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
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Date: 12 Apr 2008 22:48:22
From: Bjoern
Subject: Re: GetClub Chess further improved as seen against Rybka !!!
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Sanny wrote:
> On Apr 11, 11:59 pm, Bjoern <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Sanny wrote:
>>
>>>The game was much improved after this modification.
>>
>>Maybe the next improvement could be that it follows the rules? It still
>>can't do that properly. E.g. the three-fold repetition rule or the
>>50-move rule?
>
>
> Yes, it do not have 50 move rule. Incase it has insufficient material
> it will however automatically give Draw. Only when it has Rook + then
> it will try to win the game.
>
> I saw your game where Beginner beat you after a very difficult match.
No, it didn't beat me. It just declared the game won for itself for no
reason (except for being up on material). Looking at the game score it
clearly did not know how to win.
> However it follows three fold repitition draw. You cann see today a
> game played between Help Bot and Beginner which resulted in draw.
No, it does not follow the rule, look at my game against beginner, I
repeated a position 3 or 4 times and did not give me an possibility to
claim a draw.
> So it lost only once. Now Help Bot will see a lot of games where
> Beginner will win against him or atleast have a Drawn game.
No, it does not win, it cheats and doesn't follow the rules.
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Date: 11 Apr 2008 20:59:42
From: Bjoern
Subject: Re: GetClub Chess further improved as seen against Rybka !!!
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Sanny wrote:
> The game was much improved after this modification.
Maybe the next improvement could be that it follows the rules? It still
can't do that properly. E.g. the three-fold repetition rule or the
50-move rule?
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Date: 11 Apr 2008 21:04:41
From: Bjoern
Subject: Re: GetClub Chess further improved as seen against Rybka !!!
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Bjoern wrote:
> Sanny wrote:
>
>> The game was much improved after this modification.
>
>
> Maybe the next improvement could be that it follows the rules? It still
> can't do that properly. E.g. the three-fold repetition rule or the
> 50-move rule?
Oh, and it also likes to claim that it has won when it hasn't. Also a
slight flaw.
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