Evaluation of final position

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Date: 31 Oct 2005 03:22:04
From: wwwmoteris
Subject: Evaluation of final position

I would like you to evaluate final position in this game.
[Event "Bishop opening; 1. e4 e5 2. Bc4"]
[Date "2004.12.26"]
[Termination "normal"]
1. e4 e5 2. Bc4 f5 3. Nf3 fxe4 4. Nxe5 d5 5. Qh5+ g6 6. Nxg6 Nf6 7.
Qe5+ Be7 8. Nxe7 Qxe7 9. Qxe7+ Kxe7 10. Bb3 Rg8 11. g3 Nc6 12. d3 exd3
13. cxd3 Ne5 14. Ke2 Bg4+ 15. Ke3 Bf5 16. d4 Nfg4+ 17. Ke2 Be4 18. Re1
Nf3 19. Rd1 Nfxh2 20. Nd2 Bd3+ 21. Kxd3 Nxf2+ 22. Ke2 Nxd1 23. Bxd5
Rxg3 24. Kxd1 c6 25. Be4 Ng4 26. Bxh7 Rh8 27. Be4 Rd8 28. Kc2 Rxd4 29.
b3 1/2-1/2
----
Additionally, could somebody to show enhancement for Black after 10th
move?

Date: 01 Nov 2005 00:41:02
From: wwwmoteris
Subject: Re: Evaluation of final position

To Antonio Torrecillas as you wrote: "Other critical moves are 7.Qxh8
and 7.Qxg6"
---
I do apologise, but 7. Qxh8 is impossible and 7. Qxg6 is loosing...
Maybe, you had a position after 6. ... hxg6 (another critical move)
where White options are 8.Qxh8 and 8.Qxg6+....

Date: 01 Nov 2005 23:35:23
From: Antonio Torrecillas
Subject: Re: Evaluation of final position

En/na wwwmoteris ha escrit:
> To Antonio Torrecillas as you wrote: "Other critical moves are 7.Qxh8
> and 7.Qxg6"
> ---
> I do apologise, but 7. Qxh8 is impossible and 7. Qxg6 is loosing...
> Maybe, you had a position after 6. ... hxg6 (another critical move)
> where White options are 8.Qxh8 and 8.Qxg6+....
>

You are right (obviously),

I wanted to write about 6...hxg6 7.Qxg6 (I have 701 games, 43% for
white) and 6...hxg6 7.Qxh8 (I have 593 games, 41% for white) as another
critical possibilities in this complicated line.

AT

Date: 01 Nov 2005 00:25:03
From: wwwmoteris
Subject: Re: Evaluation of final position

To Antonio Torrecillas as he wrote: "... Can you provide us the full
information about that game? (players, time control, if it was a cr
game with engine use allowed, ...) "
----
Yep, Black was mine and White - a teacher from New Zealand who runs an
active chess club at his school. The game was played at gameknot.com in
CC style with time control 7+5<15 [7 days for first move, +5 days for
each move, but not more than 15 days per move] - so it was a plenty of
times to do analysis during the game. Game is from thematic tournament
of Bishop opening [1. e4 e5 2. Bc4 were mandatory]. As Black I wanted
to examine more deeply the Calabrese countergambit. No chess engines
were allowed and even I don't use any chess program [and even don't go
to get any as if you've an [d]evil - you've additional temptation :-) ]
- so I would like to get engines analyses as well.
[Auxilary question: could somebody suggest some tools (not engines) for
preparing chess diagrams?]
Tnx in advance...

Date: 01 Nov 2005 00:07:37
From: Ray Gordon
Subject: Re: Evaluation of final position

Only GOD can do that.

Date: 01 Nov 2005 23:45:51
From: Antonio Torrecillas
Subject: Re: Evaluation of final position

En/na Ray Gordon ha escrit:

> Only GOD can do that.

I hardly understand what you mean.

Evaluate a final position depends on the concrete "final position", for
example it's very easy to evaluate final position of Korchnoi-Karpov
Baguio 1978 (world match-17)
... sure that you, as anagram of "GOD Ron", can do that.

And respect to final position of the posted game, it is curious how
dificult is to know if a concrete ending is draw or not (we are happy
with a vague "white has some winning chances" in most cases).

AT

Date: 31 Oct 2005 14:31:19
From:
Subject: Re: Evaluation of final position

Perhaps you are right. I am not familiar with this opening, and may
have placed too much faith in Fritz's early evaluation. When I let
Fritz run longer, his evaluation of 8.Nxh8 drops considerably, while
8.Bb5+ rises, but everything remains below what Fritz considers a clear
win.

Antonio Torrecillas wrote:
> En/na [email protected] ha escrit:
>
> > wwwmoteris wrote:
> >
> >>I would like you to evaluate final position in this game.
> >>[Event "Bishop opening; 1. e4 e5 2. Bc4"]
> >>[Date "2004.12.26"]
> >>[Termination "normal"]
> >>1. e4 e5 2. Bc4 f5 3. Nf3 fxe4 4. Nxe5 d5 5. Qh5+ g6 6. Nxg6 Nf6 7.
> >>Qe5+ Be7 8. Nxe7 Qxe7 9. Qxe7+ Kxe7 10. Bb3 Rg8 11. g3 Nc6 12. d3 exd3
> >>13. cxd3 Ne5 14. Ke2 Bg4+ 15. Ke3 Bf5 16. d4 Nfg4+ 17. Ke2 Be4 18. Re1
> >>Nf3 19. Rd1 Nfxh2 20. Nd2 Bd3+ 21. Kxd3 Nxf2+ 22. Ke2 Nxd1 23. Bxd5
> >>Rxg3 24. Kxd1 c6 25. Be4 Ng4 26. Bxh7 Rh8 27. Be4 Rd8 28. Kc2 Rxd4 29.
> >>b3 1/2-1/2
> >
> > Fritz8 rates the final position as roughly even. Black played the
> > opening badly, and would have been completely busted had White played
> > 8.Nxh8 instead of 8.Nxe7.
> > Black's 10...Rg8 is not bad; perhaps 10...Nc6 or 10...Be6 were
> > better, but not by much.
>
> In my database there are 58 games with your proposed line (8.Nxh8?!)
> with only a 25% for white.
>
> There are 214 games with the critical line 8.Bb5+! c6 9.Nxe7 Qxe7
> 10.Qxe7 Kxe7 11.Be2 (black has no avaiable ...Nc6) with a 51% for white,
> ... not very impresive!
>
> That mean this position is known (theroretically speaking) and Fritz
> proposals must be taken with great care. (Other critical moves are
> 7.Qxh8 and 7.Qxg6)
>
> .................
>
> In my opinion something was wrong because black seem near to a win after
> move 15th ... but it seems a like a computer assited game and in order
> to concrete a moment to obtain advantage with black, it's needed many
> time and a good plan with careful calculation.
>
> .................
>
> I think final position can be played, specially for white because if
> white can finish his development black can have some problems.
>
> ... Can you provide us the full information about that game? (players,
> time control, if it was a cr game with engine use allowed, ...)
>
> Antonio T.

Date: 31 Oct 2005 11:16:27
From:
Subject: Re: Evaluation of final position

wwwmoteris wrote:
> I would like you to evaluate final position in this game.
> [Event "Bishop opening; 1. e4 e5 2. Bc4"]
> [Date "2004.12.26"]
> [Termination "normal"]
> 1. e4 e5 2. Bc4 f5 3. Nf3 fxe4 4. Nxe5 d5 5. Qh5+ g6 6. Nxg6 Nf6 7.
> Qe5+ Be7 8. Nxe7 Qxe7 9. Qxe7+ Kxe7 10. Bb3 Rg8 11. g3 Nc6 12. d3 exd3
> 13. cxd3 Ne5 14. Ke2 Bg4+ 15. Ke3 Bf5 16. d4 Nfg4+ 17. Ke2 Be4 18. Re1
> Nf3 19. Rd1 Nfxh2 20. Nd2 Bd3+ 21. Kxd3 Nxf2+ 22. Ke2 Nxd1 23. Bxd5
> Rxg3 24. Kxd1 c6 25. Be4 Ng4 26. Bxh7 Rh8 27. Be4 Rd8 28. Kc2 Rxd4 29.
> b3 1/2-1/2

Fritz8 rates the final position as roughly even. Black played the
opening badly, and would have been completely busted had White played
8.Nxh8 instead of 8.Nxe7.
Black's 10...Rg8 is not bad; perhaps 10...Nc6 or 10...Be6 were
better, but not by much.

Date: 31 Oct 2005 22:02:27
From: Antonio Torrecillas
Subject: Re: Evaluation of final position

En/na [email protected] ha escrit:

> wwwmoteris wrote:
>
>>I would like you to evaluate final position in this game.
>>[Event "Bishop opening; 1. e4 e5 2. Bc4"]
>>[Date "2004.12.26"]
>>[Termination "normal"]
>>1. e4 e5 2. Bc4 f5 3. Nf3 fxe4 4. Nxe5 d5 5. Qh5+ g6 6. Nxg6 Nf6 7.
>>Qe5+ Be7 8. Nxe7 Qxe7 9. Qxe7+ Kxe7 10. Bb3 Rg8 11. g3 Nc6 12. d3 exd3
>>13. cxd3 Ne5 14. Ke2 Bg4+ 15. Ke3 Bf5 16. d4 Nfg4+ 17. Ke2 Be4 18. Re1
>>Nf3 19. Rd1 Nfxh2 20. Nd2 Bd3+ 21. Kxd3 Nxf2+ 22. Ke2 Nxd1 23. Bxd5
>>Rxg3 24. Kxd1 c6 25. Be4 Ng4 26. Bxh7 Rh8 27. Be4 Rd8 28. Kc2 Rxd4 29.
>>b3 1/2-1/2
>
> Fritz8 rates the final position as roughly even. Black played the
> opening badly, and would have been completely busted had White played
> 8.Nxh8 instead of 8.Nxe7.
> Black's 10...Rg8 is not bad; perhaps 10...Nc6 or 10...Be6 were
> better, but not by much.

In my database there are 58 games with your proposed line (8.Nxh8?!)
with only a 25% for white.

There are 214 games with the critical line 8.Bb5+! c6 9.Nxe7 Qxe7
10.Qxe7 Kxe7 11.Be2 (black has no avaiable ...Nc6) with a 51% for white,
... not very impresive!

That mean this position is known (theroretically speaking) and Fritz
proposals must be taken with great care. (Other critical moves are
7.Qxh8 and 7.Qxg6)

.................

In my opinion something was wrong because black seem near to a win after
move 15th ... but it seems a like a computer assited game and in order
to concrete a moment to obtain advantage with black, it's needed many
time and a good plan with careful calculation.

.................

I think final position can be played, specially for white because if
white can finish his development black can have some problems.

... Can you provide us the full information about that game? (players,
time control, if it was a cr game with engine use allowed, ...)

Antonio T.

Date: 31 Oct 2005 22:01:32
From: Antonio Torrecillas
Subject: Re: Evaluation of final position