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Date: 12 Dec 2004 10:59:27
From: Few Good Chessmen
Subject: Computer Chess Game produces a paranormal experience?
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I came across this article recently. Richard Moody Jr. of Berne, NY if you are reading this could you post the game (surely a game of such experience you must have its record still)? Those with Chess Playing Programming know-how might want to check this out at http://www.100megsfree4.com/farshores/03rm1.htm which gives the following (just for the record)... PARA NEWS :. COMPUTER CHESS GAME PRODUCES A PARANORMAL EXPERIENCE Posted July 9.03 Richard Moody Jr. of Berne, NY, relates the following experience he had concerning an off-the-shelf chess computer he was using in 1988. It played beyond World Championship level at 1-3 seconds per move for over 80-120 plies or half moves for an entire game. Richard says the computer gave him a yardstick into its brain. It was calculating at a level over a trillion times the level of Deep Junior, the strongest computer in existence. I was a chess theoretician for about 15 years when I published my magnum opus in 1999. One section of the book was on the Evans Gambit and I've written a stand-alone book on the Evans as well. Sometime around 1988, I was studying the Evans with the aid of a weak off-the-shelf computer called Par Excellence. It plays nothing good at all at blitz speed i.e. 1-5 seconds/move. While studying the Evans, I ran out of ideas so I asked the computer to make a move. It responded with a very good move. Next, I played a few more moves and then asked the computer to make another move. It responded with a very good move. Now, I was intrigued so I forced the computer to play both sides at blitz speed. Instead of playing junk, which I expected, it played beyond World Championship level chess. World class chess has a certain look to it. The subtle handling of pawn tension or piece tension, the way pressure is built and defused, the tactical accuracy and the long-term strategies employed that suddenly make sense five moves after they are played---all these allow one to distinguish between two Masters versus two World Champions, and, bear in mind, this was all done at blitz speed. One of the first accomplishments that White achieved was to achieve sufficient pressure to force Black to give up the minor exchange (it won the Bishop for the Knight). Then White played the position like a semi-open position i.e. one that favors the Bishop even though it wasn't a semi-open position. White got so much pressure that out of nowhere, Black sacrificed a pawn. I said to myself, "Aha, you stupid computer, at last I made you blunder." Amazingly enough, White did not accept the pawn! This struck me as offsetting blunders, so I had White continue for 6-8 moves. Nothing happened. The pawn was still there. Then, I went back to the start where the sacrifice should have been accepted, and I required the computer with White to win the pawn. I waited for the axe to fall, meaning Black would regain the pawn with advantage. Instead, 6 moves went by, then 8 and then 10 and Black had not regained the pawn, but the Black Knights which had been kept in check the entire game were now very active. Since Black had started out the sequence with an extra pawn (this was a gambit opening), it just gave back the pawn and stood better. I was amazed. Next, I went back to the start of the sequence and allowed White to do what it wanted to do so it maneuvered against the pawn for 15 moves, won it, and did not allow counterplay. Deep Junior, the strongest computer in existence, can only see three moves ahead in one second. My little computer was seeing 15 moves ahead at blitz speed or over a trillion times the level of computation of Deep Junior. After a series of exchanges, White emerged with Rook, Bishop, and connected center pawns. Black had Rook, Knight and passed Rook pawns. White stepped into the Queening square of the King Rook pawn with its King, blockaded the Queen Rook pawn with its Bishop and rammed the center pawns home. When White was about to Queen one of its pawns, Black sacrificed a Rook to stop it. What is rekable about this ending is that White had to have known that the Knight couldn't get to the passed pawns. If it could have, it would have been a draw. Somehow, when entering the endgame, White had to have known that that the Knight couldn't get to the pawns. Richard, author of, 'Universal Chess The Search For Truth and Beauty', is of the opinion, "that intuition travels beyond the speed of light and permits us to communicate with the future. That is what I believe precognition is (my father had it once or twice)", he says.
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Date: 14 Dec 2004 09:40:22
From:
Subject: Re: Computer Chess Game produces a paranormal experience?
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I don't want to beat a dead horse, but I wanted to add a few quotes about Morphy from the Wikipedia site: "Morphy's principal strength does not rest upon his power of combination but in his position play and his general style....Beginning with la Bourdonnais to the present, and including Lasker, we find that the greatest stylist has been Morphy. Whence the reason, although it might not be the only one, why he is generally considered the greatest of all." - former world chess champion Jose Raul Capablanca, in Pablo Morphy by V. F. Coria and L. Palau. "...Morphy, the master of all phases of the game, stronger than any of his opponents, even the strongest of them..." - former world chess champion Alexander Alekhine, in Shakmatny Vestnik, January 15, 1914 "...the greatest chess player that ever lived...no one ever was so far superior to the players of his time" - former world chess champion Emanuel Lasker, Lasker's Chess Magazine of January 1905 "...Morphy was stronger than anyone he played with, including Anderssen" - former world champion Wilhelm Steinitz, International Chess Magazine 1885. "Morphy, I think everyone agrees, was probably the greatest of them all." - former world chess champion Bobby Fischer -Geof Strayer
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Date: 14 Dec 2004 09:28:02
From:
Subject: Re: Computer Chess Game produces a paranormal experience?
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Randy Bauer wrote: [snip] > There would be a level, probably somewhere in the master category, where I would > expect Morphy to at least have a battle and not win every game, at least until > he figured out some of the more sophisticated opening strategy. There was much > less understanding of closed defenses back then, and I suspect that some of > these could cause Morphy some problems. The French Defense strikes me as a good > choice, and an expert in that defense could pose him practical difficulties. > There are also recent defenses that might prove tricky for the unfamiliar > player. Wouldn't you be interested to see what would happen if you actually > ended up on the black side in a Benko Gambit Accepted? > > Randy Bauer Well, I may have been exaggerating somewhat, as the assumptions in some of the prior posts comparing Old Greats to modern A-players rather shocked me. So Mr.Bauer is probably right about a modern master (at least a very strong one) taking some games off of Morphy. I would think that Morphy would probably play 1.e4 and avoid most of the defenses to 1.d4 that were unknown in his time, but I certainly do agree that he might have some problems on the white side of an opening like the Benko against a modern master. In my opinion a truly modern opening based on modern ideas like the Pirc and played by a theoretical expert such as Mr. Baeur would be more dangerous to Morphy than a French played by a semi-expert such as myself, as the Exchange Variation of the French would avoid virtually all potential theoretical problems and probably suit Morphy's style fairly well. I have taken a quick look at some of the Morphy games available online since my last post (which was written in the heat of the moment), and I still think that he would score pretty heavily against modern players such as Mr. Bauer and myself who are approximately of FM strength. In a 10-game match, I would be very happy to take a couple of points off of him, and wouldn't be surprised if I got shut out completely. Morphy seemed to have an excellent "feel" for the openings and for positional play in general, and his middlegame was extremely strong. Notwitstanding giant strides in opening theory and defensive technique, I think that in the vast majority of games he would just out-tactic an FM-level player at some point. Particularly if he was informed in advance that he was facing someone who knew a lot more opening theory than he does (which would only be fair), and had the opportunity to try to avoid such theory (by intentionally playing inferior moves, for example). But reasonable minds could certainly disagree about what strength a modern master would need to be to give Morphy some problems. I don't think reasonable minds can disagree about Morphy versus the hypothetical 1900 ELO player. And I don't mean any disrespect to 1900 players, who are actually quite strong and who know a great deal about chess compared to most players. It is simply that they aren't strong enough to score points against someone of Morphy's caliber, and that is really my only point. - Geof Strayer
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Date: 14 Dec 2004 14:26:47
From: Randy Bauer
Subject: Re: Computer Chess Game produces a paranormal experience?
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In article <[email protected] >, [email protected] says... > >Randy Bauer wrote: > >[snip] > >> There would be a level, probably somewhere in the master category, >where I would >> expect Morphy to at least have a battle and not win every game, at >least until >> he figured out some of the more sophisticated opening strategy. >There was much >> less understanding of closed defenses back then, and I suspect that >some of >> these could cause Morphy some problems. The French Defense strikes >me as a good >> choice, and an expert in that defense could pose him practical >difficulties. >> There are also recent defenses that might prove tricky for the >unfamiliar >> player. Wouldn't you be interested to see what would happen if you >actually >> ended up on the black side in a Benko Gambit Accepted? >> >> Randy Bauer > > >Well, I may have been exaggerating somewhat, as the assumptions in >some of the prior posts comparing Old Greats to modern A-players rather >shocked me. So Mr.Bauer is probably right about a modern master (at >least a very strong one) taking some games off of Morphy. I think I'm closer to Mr. Strayer's opinion than it may have seemed. I think I said that Morphy would have to at least work for his points, and I'm not sure that I would expect it to be a game or two out of ten, definitely a smaller percentage than that. However, we are in absolute agreement about the class A player, who would end up as hamburger. I would >think that Morphy would probably play 1.e4 and avoid most of the >defenses to 1.d4 that were unknown in his time, but I certainly do >agree that he might have some problems on the white side of an opening >like the Benko against a modern master. In my opinion a truly modern >opening based on modern ideas like the Pirc and played by a theoretical >expert such as Mr. Baeur would be more dangerous to Morphy than a >French played by a semi-expert such as myself, as the Exchange >Variation of the French would avoid virtually all potential theoretical >problems and probably suit Morphy's style fairly well. Actually, I thinking exactly of the exchange French when I was pondering this. Unless Morphy goes in for the quick c2-c4 lines, I just don't see him getting the kind of position he would want to play against a really strong proponent of the French. Still, it's probably not a 2200 (or 2300) master we need here as our champion, probably somebody more like solid 2400. Count me out, but I'll bet we can find one. > >I have taken a quick look at some of the Morphy games available >online since my last post (which was written in the heat of the >moment), and I still think that he would score pretty heavily against >modern players such as Mr. Bauer and myself who are approximately of FM >strength. In a 10-game match, I would be very happy to take a couple of >points off of him, and wouldn't be surprised if I got shut out >completely. Morphy seemed to have an excellent "feel" for the openings >and for positional play in general, and his middlegame was extremely >strong. Notwitstanding giant strides in opening theory and defensive >technique, I think that in the vast majority of games he would just >out-tactic an FM-level player at some point. Particularly if he was >informed in advance that he was facing someone who knew a lot more >opening theory than he does (which would only be fair), and had the >opportunity to try to avoid such theory (by intentionally playing >inferior moves, for example). It's one of those questions that's fun to ponder, probably because we can never know. You're probably about right on the score and the potential outcome. > >But reasonable minds could certainly disagree about what strength a >modern master would need to be to give Morphy some problems. I don't >think reasonable minds can disagree about Morphy versus the >hypothetical 1900 ELO player. And I don't mean any disrespect to 1900 >players, who are actually quite strong and who know a great deal about >chess compared to most players. It is simply that they aren't strong >enough to score points against someone of Morphy's caliber, and that is >really my only point. > > - Geof Strayer Sounds eminantly reasonable to me. Now, where were we in the discussion about Capablanca? Randy Bauer Randy Bauer >
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Date: 14 Dec 2004 10:37:59
From: Mike Murray
Subject: Re: Computer Chess Game produces a paranormal experience?
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On 14 Dec 2004 09:28:02 -0800, [email protected] wrote: >In my opinion a truly modern >opening based on modern ideas like the Pirc and played by a theoretical >expert such as Mr. Baeur would be more dangerous to Morphy than a >French played by a semi-expert such as myself, Not strictly comparable, of course, but an interesting test would be for you (or Bauer) to play Fritz with the opening book turned off, starting from the Pirc position.
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Date: 14 Dec 2004 14:12:27
From: Randy Bauer
Subject: Re: Computer Chess Game produces a paranormal experience?
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In article <[email protected] >, Mike Murray says... > >On 14 Dec 2004 09:28:02 -0800, [email protected] wrote: > >>In my opinion a truly modern >>opening based on modern ideas like the Pirc and played by a theoretical >>expert such as Mr. Baeur would be more dangerous to Morphy than a >>French played by a semi-expert such as myself, > >Not strictly comparable, of course, but an interesting test would be >for you (or Bauer) to play Fritz with the opening book turned off, >starting from the Pirc position. > That's an interesting proposition which I may try at some point. However, I am not certain that the Pirc would be the opening I would want to discuss with Morphy, even though I probably understand it better than just about any other defense. I still would bank on the French Defense. Randy Bauer
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Date: 13 Dec 2004 15:08:54
From:
Subject: Re: Computer Chess Game produces a paranormal experience?
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Without wanting to be mean to your hypothetical A-player, and recognizing that such comparisons are fairly useless, I would imagine that if Morphy was magically transported into our time with his out-dated chess knowledge intact, he could play 1.h4 and 2.a4 as White and 1...h5 and 2...a5 as Black and beat your hypothetical A-player 100 games out of 100. Probably, he could do this blindfold as well. Morphy was at least 600 ELO points stronger tactically that your hypothetical A-player, and with that big of a difference he could very possibly give your A-player odds of a piece. In any event, the hypothetical A-player is unlikely to get such a big advantage out of his "superior" opening knowledge that Morphy could not swindle him or her. You are talking about a player who beat everyone of note in his time period who would play him, and of whom Fischer once said something like "he could beat anyone today in a set match" (possibly an exaggeration but not an enormous exaggeration), and an A-player. Do you also think that the hypothetical A-player would take the odd game off of Capablanca? I am considerably stronger than an A-player and I would expect Morphy to beat me every game. -Geof Strayer
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Date: 14 Dec 2004 10:35:30
From: Mike Murray
Subject: Re: Computer Chess Game produces a paranormal experience?
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On 13 Dec 2004 15:08:54 -0800, [email protected] wrote: >Without wanting to be mean to your hypothetical A-player, and >recognizing that such comparisons are fairly useless, I would imagine >that if Morphy was magically transported into our time with his >out-dated chess knowledge intact, he could play 1.h4 and 2.a4 as White >and 1...h5 and 2...a5 as Black and beat your hypothetical A-player 100 >games out of 100. Probably, he could do this blindfold as well. My point in saying that Morphy might drop the odd game to an opening trap was to emphasize his strength, i.e., to say this is the *only* way a contemporary "A" player would beat him. A time traveling Morphy, if made aware of his 1900-rated opponent's truckload of memorized theory, could certainly adapt such a book avoidance strategy. >Morphy was at least 600 ELO points stronger tactically that your >hypothetical A-player, and with that big of a difference he could very >possibly give your A-player odds of a piece. You're right, of course, but starting the game giving odds of a piece is a whole different ballgame than the position resulting from *losing* a piece. > In any event, the >hypothetical A-player is unlikely to get such a big advantage out of >his "superior" opening knowledge that Morphy could not swindle him or >her. Good point. Consider the famous game from 1958 where Fischer caught Reshevsky in an opening trap: 1 e4 c5 2 Ne2 Nc6 3 Nbc3 g6 4 d4 cxd4 5 Nxd4 Bg7 6 Be3 Nf6 7 Bc4 0-0 8 Bb3 Na5?! 9 e5 Ne8? 10 Bxf7! Kxf7 11 Ne6! dxe6 12 Qxd8. Reshevsky didn't resign and held out for a long time. Would he actually have recovered enough against an "A" player to swindle him and win? Quite likely, but I don't think one could count on it. Or suppose Morphy was imprudent enough to enter the rat's nest after 1 e4 e5, 2 Nf3 f5, 3 Bc4 against the 1900 who had made a hobby of this line. Sure, he'd still win most of the time, but there's a fair chance he might sac a bunch of material and then find the mate just wasn't there. >You are talking about a player who beat everyone of note in his time >period who would play him, and of whom Fischer once said something like >"he could beat anyone today in a set match" (possibly an exaggeration >but not an enormous exaggeration), and an A-player. Do you also think >that the hypothetical A-player would take the odd game off of >Capablanca? >I am considerably stronger than an A-player and I would expect Morphy >to beat me every game. > > -Geof Strayer
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Date: 14 Dec 2004 07:31:43
From: Randy Bauer
Subject: Re: Computer Chess Game produces a paranormal experience?
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In article <[email protected] >, [email protected] says... > >Without wanting to be mean to your hypothetical A-player, and >recognizing that such comparisons are fairly useless, I would imagine >that if Morphy was magically transported into our time with his >out-dated chess knowledge intact, he could play 1.h4 and 2.a4 as White >and 1...h5 and 2...a5 as Black and beat your hypothetical A-player 100 >games out of 100. Probably, he could do this blindfold as well. > >Morphy was at least 600 ELO points stronger tactically that your >hypothetical A-player, and with that big of a difference he could very >possibly give your A-player odds of a piece. In any event, the >hypothetical A-player is unlikely to get such a big advantage out of >his "superior" opening knowledge that Morphy could not swindle him or >her. Agreed. It's rare that a game between class players is decided on the basis of mastery of the opening phase of the game. If so, it is generally because of gross blunders by the weaker player, and Morphy would not be likely to make those kinds of mistakes. >You are talking about a player who beat everyone of note in his time >period who would play him, and of whom Fischer once said something like >"he could beat anyone today in a set match" (possibly an exaggeration >but not an enormous exaggeration), and an A-player. Do you also think >that the hypothetical A-player would take the odd game off of >Capablanca? > >I am considerably stronger than an A-player and I would expect Morphy >to beat me every game. > > -Geof Strayer There would be a level, probably somewhere in the master category, where I would expect Morphy to at least have a battle and not win every game, at least until he figured out some of the more sophisticated opening strategy. There was much less understanding of closed defenses back then, and I suspect that some of these could cause Morphy some problems. The French Defense strikes me as a good choice, and an expert in that defense could pose him practical difficulties. There are also recent defenses that might prove tricky for the unfamiliar player. Wouldn't you be interested to see what would happen if you actually ended up on the black side in a Benko Gambit Accepted? Randy Bauer
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Date: 13 Dec 2004 05:30:10
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Computer Chess Game produces a paranormal experience?
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Mike Murray: MM > why should we listen to his opinions MM > about computers, intuition and precognition? Taylor Kingston: TK > Second that. I would not lend this any more TK > credence than the story, a few years ago, TK > about oczy's ghost playing Korchnoi. The endgame was fascinating. Hey guys, sit down, relax, and enjoy the spectacle. Regards, Wlod
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Date: 12 Dec 2004 09:04:01
From: Taylor Kingston
Subject: Re: Computer Chess Game produces a paranormal experience?
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Mike Murray wrote: > Fabricated the *experience* ? Not necessarily. But he puffed his > credentials beyond all sense of proportion. You don't have "chess > theoreticians" of class B strength. There is no way he would be able > to evaluate whether a toy computer played at World Championship > strength, as he claims. This is way over a 1695 player's head. > > Now, given this, why should we listen to his opinions about computers, > intuition and precognition? Second that. I would not lend this any more credence than the story, a few years ago, about oczy's ghost playing Korchnoi.
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Date: 12 Dec 2004 13:49:03
From: David Richerby
Subject: Re: Computer Chess Game produces a paranormal experience?
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Few Good Chessmen <[email protected] > wrote: > COMPUTER CHESS GAME PRODUCES A PARANORMAL EXPERIENCE > Posted July 9.03 > > Richard Moody Jr. of Berne, NY, relates the following experience he had > concerning an off-the-shelf chess computer he was using in 1988. It > played beyond World Championship level at 1-3 seconds per move for over > 80-120 plies or half moves for an entire game. No it didn't. It happened to find the right moves in an Evans Gambit game. Since such games tend to be very tactical and forcing (which is where computers excel), this is not so surprising and certainly not a candidate for paranormality... > Richard says the computer gave him a yardstick into its brain. It was > calculating at a level over a trillion times the level of Deep Junior, > the strongest computer in existence. Moody asserts that, because this `Par Excellence' computer didn't accept an offer of a sacrificed pawn but won the pawn back fifteen moves later, it must have been looking at least thirty ply ahead in a couple of seconds. This is nonsense: it seems much more likely that white saw that accepting the pawn would lead to an immediate worsening of its position, but that the refutation of black's plan was over the horizon. Also note that he never claims that Deep Junior plays worse moves in the position; he just claims that it can only see to three ply in a second. The claim that the computer was playing `beyond World Championship level' is, er, interesting, coming from an author who is, himself, so far below that level. Details of Moody's book on the Evans Gambit can be found at http://www.niggemann.com/detaul/buecher/2448.html Dave. -- David Richerby Adult Dictator (TM): it's like a www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ totalitarian leader that you won't want the children to see!
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Date: 13 Dec 2004 11:11:49
From: Shaun Press
Subject: Re: Computer Chess Game produces a paranormal experience?
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David Richerby wrote: <snip > > > Details of Moody's book on the Evans Gambit can be found at > > http://www.niggemann.com/detaul/buecher/2448.html > > > Dave. > I think this is the book that got one of the harshest reviews I have ever seen in a chess magazine. In one of the British chess publications (British Chess Magazine or Chess Monthly) it was discribed as "garbage" or maybe even "worthless garbage".
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Date: 13 Dec 2004 11:54:28
From: David Richerby
Subject: Re: Computer Chess Game produces a paranormal experience?
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Shaun Press <[email protected] > wrote: > David Richerby wrote: >> Details of Moody's book on the Evans Gambit can be found at >> >> http://www.niggemann.com/detaul/buecher/2448.html > > I think this is the book that got one of the harshest reviews I have > ever seen in a chess magazine. In one of the British chess publications > (British Chess Magazine or Chess Monthly) it was discribed as "garbage" > or maybe even "worthless garbage". :-) The only reviews I can find on the web are fairly positive but most of them are from people trying to sell copies of the book! Dave. -- David Richerby Mouldy Poetic Painting (TM): it's like www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ a Renaissance masterpiece but it's in verse and starting to grow mushrooms!
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Date: 12 Dec 2004 08:14:16
From: Mike Murray
Subject: Re: Computer Chess Game produces a paranormal experience?
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On 12 Dec 2004 13:49:03 +0000 (GMT), David Richerby <[email protected] > wrote: >The claim that the computer was playing `beyond World Championship level' >is, er, interesting, coming from an author who is, himself, so far below >that level. > > >Details of Moody's book on the Evans Gambit can be found at > > http://www.niggemann.com/detaul/buecher/2448.html Well, I'll be damned. Chess Digest published it. OK, what's the story? Have I got the wrong "Moody"? > > >Dave.
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Date: 12 Dec 2004 00:49:57
From: Mike Murray
Subject: Re: Computer Chess Game produces a paranormal experience?
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On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 10:59:27 +0800, "Few Good Chessmen" <[email protected] > wrote: >I came across this article recently. Richard Moody Jr. of Berne, NY if you >are reading this could you post the game (surely a game of such experience >you must have its record still)? >Those with Chess Playing Programming know-how might want to check this out >at http://www.100megsfree4.com/farshores/03rm1.htm which gives the following >(just for the record)... >PARA NEWS :. >COMPUTER CHESS GAME PRODUCES A PARANORMAL EXPERIENCE >Posted July 9.03 >Richard Moody Jr. of Berne, NY, relates the following experience he had >concerning an off-the-shelf chess computer he was using in 1988. It played >beyond World Championship level at 1-3 seconds per move for over 80-120 >plies or half moves for an entire game. Richard says the computer gave him a >yardstick into its brain. It was calculating at a level over a trillion >times the level of Deep Junior, the strongest computer in existence. >I was a chess theoretician for about 15 years when I published my magnum >opus in 1999. One section of the book was on the Evans Gambit and I've >written a stand-alone book on the Evans as well. Richard Moody of NY is rated 1695. A "magnum opus" and stand-alone book on the Evans Gambit ? Where is it sold?
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Date: 12 Dec 2004 18:06:20
From: Few Good Chessmen
Subject: Re: Computer Chess Game produces a paranormal experience?
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"Mike Murray" <[email protected] > wrote in message news:[email protected]... > On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 10:59:27 +0800, "Few Good Chessmen" > <[email protected]> wrote: > > >I came across this article recently. Richard Moody Jr. of Berne, NY if you > >are reading this could you post the game (surely a game of such experience > >you must have its record still)? > > >Those with Chess Playing Programming know-how might want to check this out > >at http://www.100megsfree4.com/farshores/03rm1.htm which gives the following > >(just for the record)... > >PARA NEWS :. > > >COMPUTER CHESS GAME PRODUCES A PARANORMAL EXPERIENCE > >Posted July 9.03 > > >Richard Moody Jr. of Berne, NY, relates the following experience he had > >concerning an off-the-shelf chess computer he was using in 1988. It played > >beyond World Championship level at 1-3 seconds per move for over 80-120 > >plies or half moves for an entire game. Richard says the computer gave him a > >yardstick into its brain. It was calculating at a level over a trillion > >times the level of Deep Junior, the strongest computer in existence. > > >I was a chess theoretician for about 15 years when I published my magnum > >opus in 1999. One section of the book was on the Evans Gambit and I've > >written a stand-alone book on the Evans as well. > > Richard Moody of NY is rated 1695. A "magnum opus" and stand-alone > book on the Evans Gambit ? Where is it sold? I have not checked the availability of the publications nor his latest rating but are you implying he fabricated the experience?
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Date: 12 Dec 2004 08:01:23
From: Mike Murray
Subject: Re: Computer Chess Game produces a paranormal experience?
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On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 18:06:20 +0800, "Few Good Chessmen" <[email protected] > wrote: >> >I was a chess theoretician for about 15 years when I published my magnum >> >opus in 1999. One section of the book was on the Evans Gambit and I've >> >written a stand-alone book on the Evans as well. >> Richard Moody of NY is rated 1695. A "magnum opus" and stand-alone >> book on the Evans Gambit ? Where is it sold? >I have not checked the availability of the publications nor his latest >rating but are you implying he fabricated the experience? You can view his latest rating on the USCF web site. There would be negligible ket for a book on opening theory written by a 1695 player, so I'm wondering who published the book. Certainly, he could have gone the route of the vanity press or self-publiishing. Fabricated the *experience* ? Not necessarily. But he puffed his credentials beyond all sense of proportion. You don't have "chess theoreticians" of class B strength. There is no way he would be able to evaluate whether a toy computer played at World Championship strength, as he claims. This is way over a 1695 player's head. Now, given this, why should we listen to his opinions about computers, intuition and precognition?
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Date: 13 Dec 2004 01:45:32
From: Few Good Chessmen
Subject: Re: Computer Chess Game produces a paranormal experience?
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"Mike Murray" <[email protected] > wrote in message news:[email protected]... > On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 18:06:20 +0800, "Few Good Chessmen" > <[email protected]> wrote: > > >> >I was a chess theoretician for about 15 years when I published my magnum > >> >opus in 1999. One section of the book was on the Evans Gambit and I've > >> >written a stand-alone book on the Evans as well. > > >> Richard Moody of NY is rated 1695. A "magnum opus" and stand-alone > >> book on the Evans Gambit ? Where is it sold? > > >I have not checked the availability of the publications nor his latest > >rating but are you implying he fabricated the experience? > > You can view his latest rating on the USCF web site. I suppose this is only applicable for active Chess Players only. > > There would be negligible ket for a book on opening theory written > by a 1695 player, so I'm wondering who published the book. Certainly, > he could have gone the route of the vanity press or self-publiishing. > > Fabricated the *experience* ? Not necessarily. But he puffed his > credentials beyond all sense of proportion. You don't have "chess > theoreticians" of class B strength. There is no way he would be able > to evaluate whether a toy computer played at World Championship > strength, as he claims. This is way over a 1695 player's head. I'm not quite agree with this arguments since if by todays standard of Chess Rating there wouldn't be strong acceptance of any Chess Theoreticians of classical era (Meaning the Old Masters should be rated below 1900 at present scale). Leaving a small portion of Chess Players rated over 2000 understood (therefore preferred) better of Modern (or New) Chess Theories. He spented 15 years studying Chess Theories before publishing his magnum opus and I reckon that must worth something to ponder on... > > Now, given this, why should we listen to his opinions about computers, > intuition and precognition? I suppect the game lasted around 30 moves or so and his rek "that intuition travels beyond the speed of light and permits us to communicate with the future" caught my attention with the ability of this computer (You must admit the surpise conclusion made for the Endgame) when compared with present ones. Pity there was no Game Record along with the article.
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Date: 12 Dec 2004 10:42:01
From: Mike Murray
Subject: Re: Computer Chess Game produces a paranormal experience?
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On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 01:45:32 +0800, "Few Good Chessmen" <[email protected] > wrote: >> You can view his latest rating on the USCF web site. >I suppose this is only applicable for active Chess Players only. No, they retain your rating indefinitely. For players active recently, they record the highest level that player attained. >> There would be negligible ket for a book on opening theory written >> by a 1695 player, so I'm wondering who published the book. Certainly, >> he could have gone the route of the vanity press or self-publiishing. Since I posted this comment, David Richerby has pointed to a site which indicates Chess Digest published Moody's book on the Evans Gambit, which comes as a surprise to me. Maybe somebody can provide additional background on this. Certainly, a Class B player could compile collections of games, articles, and annotations, and clerically integrate this stuff into a book. But, without consultation with one or more much stronger players, this B player couldn't be expected to add value (evaluations, alternate suggestions, etc.) to the compilation. >> Fabricated the *experience* ? Not necessarily. But he puffed his >> credentials beyond all sense of proportion. You don't have "chess >> theoreticians" of class B strength. There is no way he would be able >> to evaluate whether a toy computer played at World Championship >> strength, as he claims. This is way over a 1695 player's head. >I'm not quite agree with this arguments since if by todays standard of Chess >Rating there wouldn't be strong acceptance of any Chess Theoreticians of >classical era (Meaning the Old Masters should be rated below 1900 at present >scale). Leaving a small portion of Chess Players rated over 2000 understood >(therefore preferred) better of Modern (or New) Chess Theories. Ratings measure past performance against peers and can be used to predict future performance against same. Saying that Morphy or Philidor would have an "x" rating if plopped into contemporary chess practice is speculative at best. Based on his games, I believe a time-traveling Morphy might drop the odd game to an opening trap, but would kick contemporary 1900-rated players' butts. >He spented 15 years studying Chess Theories before publishing his magnum >opus and I reckon that must worth something to ponder on... For evaluating the worth of a publication? It doesn't mean much to me unless the person doing the studying has the expertise to make such study of value.
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Date: 13 Dec 2004 07:50:56
From: Few Good Chessmen
Subject: Re: Computer Chess Game produces a paranormal experience?
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"Mike Murray" <[email protected] > wrote in message news:[email protected]... > On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 01:45:32 +0800, "Few Good Chessmen" > <[email protected]> wrote: > > >> You can view his latest rating on the USCF web site. > > >I suppose this is only applicable for active Chess Players only. > > No, they retain your rating indefinitely. For players active > recently, they record the highest level that player attained. Then the question remains at when was his last rated game (I left the time he spend studying his Chess Theories alone and with the aids of computer). > > >> There would be negligible ket for a book on opening theory written > >> by a 1695 player, so I'm wondering who published the book. Certainly, > >> he could have gone the route of the vanity press or self-publiishing. > > Since I posted this comment, David Richerby has pointed to a site > which indicates Chess Digest published Moody's book on the Evans > Gambit, which comes as a surprise to me. Maybe somebody can provide > additional background on this. > > Certainly, a Class B player could compile collections of games, > articles, and annotations, and clerically integrate this stuff into a > book. But, without consultation with one or more much stronger > players, this B player couldn't be expected to add value (evaluations, > alternate suggestions, etc.) to the compilation. > > >> Fabricated the *experience* ? Not necessarily. But he puffed his > >> credentials beyond all sense of proportion. You don't have "chess > >> theoreticians" of class B strength. There is no way he would be able > >> to evaluate whether a toy computer played at World Championship > >> strength, as he claims. This is way over a 1695 player's head. > > >I'm not quite agree with this arguments since if by todays standard of Chess > >Rating there wouldn't be strong acceptance of any Chess Theoreticians of > >classical era (Meaning the Old Masters should be rated below 1900 at present > >scale). Leaving a small portion of Chess Players rated over 2000 understood > >(therefore preferred) better of Modern (or New) Chess Theories. > > Ratings measure past performance against peers and can be used to > predict future performance against same. Saying that Morphy or > Philidor would have an "x" rating if plopped into contemporary chess > practice is speculative at best. Based on his games, I believe a > time-traveling Morphy might drop the odd game to an opening trap, but > would kick contemporary 1900-rated players' butts. I doubt this analogy can be true at all since Morphy was not famous soley by his odd games or openning traps. > > >He spented 15 years studying Chess Theories before publishing his magnum > >opus and I reckon that must worth something to ponder on... > > For evaluating the worth of a publication? It doesn't mean much to me > unless the person doing the studying has the expertise to make such > study of value. You just agreed time-traveling Old Masters would give contemporary 1900 rated Chess Players some headache but devalued their expertise in doing so. Whereas I'm only trying to ascertain what value of Chess Theories were put into the publication. I think you judge the book by its cover type...
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Date: 12 Dec 2004 18:08:58
From: Mike Murray
Subject: Re: Computer Chess Game produces a paranormal experience?
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On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 07:50:56 +0800, "Few Good Chessmen" <[email protected] > wrote: >Then the question remains at when was his last rated game (I left the time >he spend studying his Chess Theories alone and with the aids of computer). His last rated tournament was the New York State Class Championships, in October of 1997, where he played in the B Class and placed next to last with a score of 1-5. However, he only *played* one game, so it looks like he filled in for a drop-out. He played in some other tournaments that year also. So, it appears he earned his Class B rating well after he spent his fifteen years as a "theoretician".
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Date: 12 Dec 2004 18:03:15
From: Mike Murray
Subject: Re: Computer Chess Game produces a paranormal experience?
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On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 07:50:56 +0800, "Few Good Chessmen" <[email protected] > wrote: >> ...Based on his games, I believe a >> time-traveling Morphy might drop the odd game to an opening trap, but >> would kick contemporary 1900-rated players' butts. >I doubt this analogy can be true at all since Morphy was not famous soley by >his odd games or openning traps. "Drop the odd game" means "Drop the occasional game". And I meant, he might well fall into some of the more subtle book traps devised since his time and lose to an A player that way, but otherwise, he'd cream the A-player.
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Date: 13 Dec 2004 11:04:57
From: Few Good Chessmen
Subject: Re: Computer Chess Game produces a paranormal experience?
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"Mike Murray" <[email protected] > wrote in message news:[email protected]... > On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 07:50:56 +0800, "Few Good Chessmen" > <[email protected]> wrote: > > >> ...Based on his games, I believe a > >> time-traveling Morphy might drop the odd game to an opening trap, but > >> would kick contemporary 1900-rated players' butts. > > >I doubt this analogy can be true at all since Morphy was not famous soley by > >his odd games or openning traps. > > "Drop the odd game" means "Drop the occasional game". And I meant, he > might well fall into some of the more subtle book traps devised since > his time and lose to an A player that way, but otherwise, he'd cream > the A-player. Morphy falls into subtle book traps of present days (What's the maximum setup moves for all known traps)? No likely. Traps are easily seem by any good Positional Chess Player.
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Date: 12 Dec 2004 23:31:56
From: David Richerby
Subject: Re: Computer Chess Game produces a paranormal experience?
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Mike Murray <[email protected] > wrote: > Certainly, a Class B player could compile collections of games, > articles, and annotations, and clerically integrate this stuff into a > book. But, without consultation with one or more much stronger > players, this B player couldn't be expected to add value (evaluations, > alternate suggestions, etc.) to the compilation. That's why he turned to the chess computer that was channeling the spirit of Captain Evans, I suppose. Dave. -- David Richerby Moistened Flammable Robot (TM): it's www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ like a high-tech robot but it burns really easily and it's moist!
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