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Date: 25 Nov 2006 22:42:18
From: Sanny
Subject: Chrisf winning Master Level playing same game 3 times
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I saw games of Chrisf Played at
http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
He played three games with Master Level and made same sequence of moves
in each game and win 3 games with Master Level. (It is a big Cheating)
Playing Same game from start to end is wrong as Computer knows opening
till 4 moves after words it plays same move.
Here are the Recorded Games which are same.
1. http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?id=DM5215&game=Chess
2. http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?id=DM5233&game=Chess
3. http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?id=DM5242&game=Chess
You can see Chrisf have played same moves in the Four Game. (Is there a
way it can be stopped) Else he can get high ranking Playing same game
again and again.
Bye
Sanny
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
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Date: 29 Nov 2006 21:17:05
From: help bot
Subject: Re: Chrisf winning Master Level playing same game 3 times
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chrisf wrote:
> I don't pretend to be a computer chess expert, so I don't know exactly what
> computer-style moves would be.
How about repeatedly moving one's pieces en prise,
ala Frank shall's famous ...Q-g3!!! (Of course, I
know that Mr. shall was *not* using a computer,
but it fits the computer style.)
> The game Sanny posted was only 16 moves, and
> starting with 9.Nc3, it's a pretty straightforward attack against the
> uncastled king
True. In some of my early games, I played much
like a computer against Sanny's program, but then,
it seemed I could do no wrong, all lines lead to mate!
> (something else Sanny could work on - the program seems to
> have an aversion to castling).
I suspect his team of programmers simply did
not include a bonus for castling; it's just another
move.
> But if I play as well as a chess program,
> well I'll just take that as a compliment :-)
Maybe I should have replayed *all* of your games
before commenting on your style.
> >> By the way, you seem to think I am such a horrible person because I had
> >> the
> >> nerve to play white twice in a row against his program.
> >
> > What a tosser! I simply made a little joke, and it was
> > in response to a claim that you were repeating the exact
> > same win, over and over, presumably to rack up free
> > rating points.
>
> Sorry if you took my response as an overreaction. I can only go by what you
> wrote, not what you meant to write. You wrote that the human shouldn't
> always take white against the computer, not that one shouldn't play the same
> line more than once.
This sounds a bit like Dr. Blair's stuff.
As I said, my comments were in direct response to
a posting by Sanny which clearly stated that you were
repeating the precise same win, over and over again.
Now, to take that and twist it into an assertion on my
part that no one should always take the White pieces is
just plain silly. My comments were supposed to be a
joke, not a moral assessment. IMO, a rating ( I must
assume you are not after the "money", since it doesn't
exist!) earned this way is quite meaningless.
> And in fact, it's good practice to test a problem for
> repeatability. And I guess maybe test it one more time just to be really,
> really sure :-) Sanny noted the issue with his program and has corrected it.
When I was in the habit of taking the White pieces in
almost every game, I thought I might stumble across
some line where his program lost very quickly via the
identical same moves. But it never happenned -- most
likely not because there were no such weaknesses, but
because I "instinctively" varied my own play, to avoid
this possibility. Unlike Sanny, I don't consider it to be
cheating, as he put it. Just low. I should have known
better than to accept Sanny's accusation at face value,
since it was only a day or two ago that he was bragging
about his program finally beating me (again), when in fact
I had won a piece in four moves, going on to win easily.
If you stumble across a handful of loose screws, you
know who to send them: Sanny, Get Club,
Faraway Isle, Bermuda Triangle East Quadrant
-- help bot
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Date: 29 Nov 2006 01:15:27
From: help bot
Subject: Re: Chrisf winning Master Level playing same game 3 times
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chrisf wrote:
> "help bot" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> > I was a bit surprised to see your program play a different
> > (and perhaps superior!) refutation to Sanny's program's
> > mistake in the Ruy Lopez; that is one move I had not seen
> > before. I am talking about the move Nc3, instead of say,
> > Bxd5 and THEN Nc3.
> >
> > -- help bot
>
> Have you even looked at my games?
In the post where Sanny claimed you had repeated the
same win, over and over, I entered the top "link" and
replayed just that game, to see how his program loses
to somebody besides me. I saw a series of book moves,
then a series of computer-style moves refuting the
program's blunder in the opening. Unlike, say, Taylor
Kingston, who clearly was not only *not* using a computer,
but who seemed to fall asleep at times, your moves
looked very suspicious -- and very strong! : >D
> I'd be more embarassed if I *was* using a
> program to play against Sanny's program.
Rest assured that if you are, you are not alone. In all
my days of playing blitz chess against a wide variety
of opponents of all different strengths, I have never seen
anyone who played quite like some of the players at
GetClub, except of course, for computer programs,
which nearly always play this way. (By no small
coincidence, every one of them on GetClub is known
to have access to a computer, by the very fact of their
being online!)
> By the way, you seem to think I am such a horrible person because I had the
> nerve to play white twice in a row against his program.
What a tosser! I simply made a little joke, and it was
in response to a claim that you were repeating the exact
same win, over and over, presumably to rack up free
rating points. I certainly don't consider beating up on a
chess program to in any way equate to what that big
bully, Godzilla, did to poor little Bambi. After all, Bambi
was a living, breathing, animated deer, whereas a chess
program has no feelings whatever. (Do you have any
idea of the emotional scar left on Thumper as a result of
Godzilla's action?)
> So I thought, well,
> apparently nomorechess must be a paragon of virtue.
Some would say it is better to be lucky than st.
Here, you were just lucky, I guess.
> And what do I see? That
> douche bag played white 26(!!) times in a row against Sanny's Bambi. Now
> *that* guy should be ashamed of himself... :-)
That was back when Sanny's program was reportedly
"improving" every day, and I needed all the help I could
get. If you check your facts, you will find that I am now
in a "Black only" mode, having played a long series of
games with the advantage of the Black pieces. Before,
I played with the advantage of the White pieces every
game, so it evens out. (You see, it makes little difference
what color the pieces are, you get the advantage every
time.) Once upon a time, Sanny's program was actually
playing a decent game of chess; I've had maybe a couple
of draws "cancelled" because Sanny has not made
allowance for the scoring of half-points, and one loss
which you can still see there.
But just to address your point seriously, take a look at my
ONE rated game against a human opponent: what color
do you think I took, and why?
-- help bot
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Date: 29 Nov 2006 18:13:28
From: chrisf
Subject: Re: Chrisf winning Master Level playing same game 3 times
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"help bot" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In the post where Sanny claimed you had repeated the
> same win, over and over, I entered the top "link" and
> replayed just that game, to see how his program loses
> to somebody besides me. I saw a series of book moves,
> then a series of computer-style moves refuting the
> program's blunder in the opening. Unlike, say, Taylor
> Kingston, who clearly was not only *not* using a computer,
> but who seemed to fall asleep at times, your moves
> looked very suspicious -- and very strong! :>D
I don't pretend to be a computer chess expert, so I don't know exactly what
computer-style moves would be. The game Sanny posted was only 16 moves, and
starting with 9.Nc3, it's a pretty straightforward attack against the
uncastled king (something else Sanny could work on - the program seems to
have an aversion to castling). But if I play as well as a chess program,
well I'll just take that as a compliment :-)
>> By the way, you seem to think I am such a horrible person because I had
>> the
>> nerve to play white twice in a row against his program.
>
> What a tosser! I simply made a little joke, and it was
> in response to a claim that you were repeating the exact
> same win, over and over, presumably to rack up free
> rating points.
Sorry if you took my response as an overreaction. I can only go by what you
wrote, not what you meant to write. You wrote that the human shouldn't
always take white against the computer, not that one shouldn't play the same
line more than once. And in fact, it's good practice to test a problem for
repeatability. And I guess maybe test it one more time just to be really,
really sure :-) Sanny noted the issue with his program and has corrected it.
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Date: 01 Dec 2006 01:15:48
From: Chris F.A. Johnson
Subject: Re: Chrisf winning Master Level playing same game 3 times
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On 2006-11-29, chrisf wrote:
> (something else Sanny could work on - the program seems to
> have an aversion to castling).
Has he been getting advice from RG? That could explain a lot!
--
Chris F.A. Johnson <http://cfaj.freeshell.org >
===================================================================
Author:
Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress)
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Date: 27 Nov 2006 22:03:23
From: help bot
Subject: Re: Chrisf winning Master Level playing same game 3 times
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chrisf wrote:
> > [You really look bad here, ChrisF, in that everyone knows
> > Bambi lost his mum when he was just a wee lad, so you
> > come off as the bad guy, kicking a deer when he is down.]
> >
> > -- friend of the prince of the forest
>
> Well, I did go back and check once the site came back up, since I started to
> feel bad for Bambi. If you had bothered to look at Sanny's links, you would
> have noticed that only 3 of the games were repeats.
*Only* three? LOL!
FYI: I have never repeated even a single win at GetClub,
despite being by far the most active player there.
> The 4th link is a
> completely different line (and I was black for that matter). And only 2 of
> the games were consecutive whites. I also played 2 blacks in a row in that
> span of games.
>
> Hope the prince of the forest has a better fact checker.
Idiot. If Sanny posted faulty information, then the person
responsible is... Sanny! This poor guy is having no end of
trouble in his failed attempts to "improve" his chess program,
and people like you keep twisting the knife.
I was a bit surprised to see your program play a different
(and perhaps superior!) refutation to Sanny's program's
mistake in the Ruy Lopez; that is one move I had not seen
before. I am talking about the move Nc3, instead of say,
Bxd5 and THEN Nc3.
-- help bot
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Date: 27 Nov 2006 19:16:12
From: Chris Mattern
Subject: Re: Chrisf winning Master Level playing same game 3 times
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In article <[email protected] >, Sanny wrote:
>I saw games of Chrisf Played at
>
>http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
>
>He played three games with Master Level and made same sequence of moves
>in each game and win 3 games with Master Level. (It is a big Cheating)
>
>Playing Same game from start to end is wrong as Computer knows opening
>till 4 moves after words it plays same move.
>
There's nothing wrong with that. If your program always chooses the
same move, it's the program's own fault. *Decent* chess programs
put a bit of randomness into their evaluation routines to avoid
falling into this trap.
--
Christopher Mattern
"Which one you figure tracked us?"
"The ugly one, sir."
"...Could you be more specific?"
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Date: 27 Nov 2006 19:51:49
From: Don Dooley
Subject: Re: Chrisf winning Master Level playing same game 3 times
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"Chris Mattern" <If your program always chooses the same move, it's the
program's own fault. *Decent* chess programs put a bit of randomness into
their evaluation routines to avoid falling into this trap.
>
If one guy can play the same game over and over again and win in 5 moves,
whose fault is that? You need to get Chessmaster 9000 (or whatever the
newest version is) and give it to your programmers so they can rip some code
and upgrade your software. At this pace, it sounds like an old DOS program.
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Date: 26 Nov 2006 21:44:30
From: help bot
Subject: Re: Chrisf winning Master Level playing same game 3 times
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Sanny wrote:
> I saw games of Chrisf Played at
>
> http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
>
> He played three games with Master Level and made same sequence of moves
> in each game and win 3 games with Master Level. (It is a big Cheating)
>
> Playing Same game from start to end is wrong as Computer knows opening
> till 4 moves after words it plays same move.
>
> Here are the Recorded Games which are same.
>
> 1. http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?id=DM5215&game=Chess
>
> 2. http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?id=DM5233&game=Chess
>
> 3. http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?id=DM5242&game=Chess
>
> You can see Chrisf have played same moves in the Four Game. (Is there a
> way it can be stopped) Else he can get high ranking Playing same game
> again and again.
Sanny, one way to stop ChrisF from destroying your
program so quickly would be to get him into a closed
game. For example, instead of a Ruy Lopez -- where
everybody and his brother has memorized the "correct"
moves -- try a Caro Kan or a French Defense.
Another idea would be to alter the program so it no
longer grabs pawns on the same file as its uncastled
King in the opening; this tendency can often lead to big
trouble. The drawback to this approach is that there
may well be cases where grabbing such a pawn is
"correct".
But in the end you are doomed to lose to ChrisF no
matter what you may try, for IMO, he is using a (real)
chess program to beat yours. The best you can hope
for is that he will grow weary of playing computer
operator in a "Godzilla meets Bambi" scenario.
A nit to pick: generally speaking, it is considered
poor form for Godzilla to always take the White pieces
against Bambi. Ideally, Godzilla would deliberately give
away his Queen, and only then begin playing in earnest.
[You really look bad here, ChrisF, in that everyone knows
Bambi lost his mum when he was just a wee lad, so you
come off as the bad guy, kicking a deer when he is down.]
-- friend of the prince of the forest
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Date: 27 Nov 2006 23:04:34
From: chrisf
Subject: Re: Chrisf winning Master Level playing same game 3 times
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"help bot" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> A nit to pick: generally speaking, it is considered
> poor form for Godzilla to always take the White pieces
> against Bambi. Ideally, Godzilla would deliberately give
> away his Queen, and only then begin playing in earnest.
> [You really look bad here, ChrisF, in that everyone knows
> Bambi lost his mum when he was just a wee lad, so you
> come off as the bad guy, kicking a deer when he is down.]
>
> -- friend of the prince of the forest
Well, I did go back and check once the site came back up, since I started to
feel bad for Bambi. If you had bothered to look at Sanny's links, you would
have noticed that only 3 of the games were repeats. The 4th link is a
completely different line (and I was black for that matter). And only 2 of
the games were consecutive whites. I also played 2 blacks in a row in that
span of games.
Hope the prince of the forest has a better fact checker.
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Date: 27 Nov 2006 22:28:23
From: chrisf
Subject: Re: Chrisf winning Master Level playing same game 3 times
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"help bot" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> But in the end you are doomed to lose to ChrisF no
> matter what you may try, for IMO, he is using a (real)
> chess program to beat yours.
You're funny.
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Date: 26 Nov 2006 10:43:35
From: Bjoern
Subject: Re: Chrisf winning Master Level playing same game 3 times
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Sanny wrote:
> He played three games with Master Level and made same sequence of moves
> in each game and win 3 games with Master Level. (It is a big Cheating)
>
> Playing Same game from start to end is wrong as Computer knows opening
> till 4 moves after words it plays same move.
It's not wrong, it's not cheating, it's a weakness of your program.
> You can see Chrisf have played same moves in the Four Game. (Is there a
> way it can be stopped) Else he can get high ranking Playing same game
> again and again.
Surely anyone who is actually willing to invest the necessary time can
do that, it's not like the computer would not loose anyway if Chrisf
deviated. If the computer was stronger it would be more difficult to
find a way of playing that always wins.
Further, why does the computer always play the same moves in the
opening? You could allow it to randomly choose amongst equally good
moves from its opening book and from nearly equally good moves that it
has calculated during the later game, that way you are almost guaranteed
that no game would ever be repeated.
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