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Main
Date: 11 Jan 2007 22:22:38
From: Sanny
Subject: Chess analysis Strategy.
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Once a person told me why GetClub game was weak.
He said
1. He did double Rook but GetClub Chess did not responded.
2. He made pawn formation but GetClub Chess did not stop.
3. He used lot of time in building strategy but GetClub Chess did not
attack.
But your computer did nothing to stop it. Since these were not doing
any initial threath GetClub Chess ignored such things as no Piece or
pawn was being killed by such moves.
But Since the player who told me this was a good player as he ranked
8th at GetClub Chess.
So I would like to know what should be done
1. To stop double Rook in a file and how big this threath is? Is it
worth sacrificing a pawn.
2. How to stop opponent make pawn formation. I feel any move of a pawn
will make a formation. are there any specific formations that are
dangerous.
3. How to not allow opponent to develop pieces any idea.
If these three things are included my game will be much stronger.
Bye
Sanny
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
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Date: 13 Jan 2007 02:37:58
From: Sanny
Subject: Mate in 2 found.
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In the game you played below it is Mate in 2 situation.
> 1. f3 e5
> 2. Kf2 Nc6
> 3. Ke3 Bc5
> 4. Ke4 d5
> 5. Kd3 Bf5
> 6. Kc3 Bb4
> 7. Kb3 Nd4
> 8. Kxb4 Nc2
> 9. Kc5 ...
Here a Mate in 2 has occured and GetClub Chess wins the game.
9. ... Qd6+ 10. Kb5 Qb4#
You are very weak player you lost in just 9 Moves.
You need to practise a lot at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html to
increase your ranking.
This was an unrecorded game with beginner level, When your skills
improve then try playing higher levels till you reach the Master Level.
If you can beat Master Level you can be in top 3 at GetClub.com
Bye
Sanny
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
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Date: 14 Jan 2007 01:18:28
From: Daniel W. Rouse Jr.
Subject: Re: Mate in 2 found.
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"Sanny" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In the game you played below it is Mate in 2 situation.
>
> > 1. f3 e5
> > 2. Kf2 Nc6
> > 3. Ke3 Bc5
> > 4. Ke4 d5
> > 5. Kd3 Bf5
> > 6. Kc3 Bb4
> > 7. Kb3 Nd4
> > 8. Kxb4 Nc2
> > 9. Kc5 ...
>
> Here a Mate in 2 has occured and GetClub Chess wins the game.
>
> 9. ... Qd6+ 10. Kb5 Qb4#
>
> You are very weak player you lost in just 9 Moves.
>
[snip...]
Those moves are not supposed to be serious moves at all. None of the test
games I have played against GetClub chess so far have been serious
moves--they have all started with Gedult's opening.
In fact, Gedult's opening (1. f3) followed by the Hammerschlag opening (2.
Kf2) is just asking for the king to checkmated, but the chess engine still
has to make a few moves. Playing the Fool's Mate (1. f3 e5 2. g4 Qh4 mate)
outright gives away the game and I also previously tested that too, GetClub
chess does get the Fool's Mate right the first time.
You be the judge as to whether allowing me to move the King around the board
for 8 consecutive moves shows a reasonably strong chess engine, even at the
beginner level.
Also, even if a mate in 2 has occurred in that position and GetClub chess
will win the game, it should not auto-abort out of the game and return to
the level selection choices for the next game--the game should be allowed to
complete to the end and the popup window informing the player they have been
checkmated should appear at the end of the game when the player has actually
been checkmated.
Furthermore, the program is also averaging 60 seconds per move at the
unrecorded/beginner 10 to 20 seconds per move level, starting with move 3,
so the time controls still need more work to ensure that each move is made
within 10 to 20 seconds.
Finally, the popup notification window informing the player they are
checkmated has a typographical error: the player has been Checkmated rather
than Checked Mated.
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Date: 12 Jan 2007 01:06:56
From: help bot
Subject: Re: Chess analysis Strategy.
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Sanny wrote:
> Once a person told me why GetClub game was weak.
>
> He said
>
> 1. He did double Rook but GetClub Chess did not responded.
> 2. He made pawn formation but GetClub Chess did not stop.
> 3. He used lot of time in building strategy but GetClub Chess did not
> attack.
>
> But your computer did nothing to stop it. Since these were not doing
> any initial threath GetClub Chess ignored such things as no Piece or
> pawn was being killed by such moves.
>
> But Since the player who told me this was a good player as he ranked
> 8th at GetClub Chess.
>
> So I would like to know what should be done
>
> 1. To stop double Rook in a file and how big this threath is? Is it
> worth sacrificing a pawn.
No. Your program should try to focus on "sacrificing"
the *opponent's* men, not its own.
> 2. How to stop opponent make pawn formation. I feel any move of a pawn
> will make a formation. are there any specific formations that are
> dangerous.
Generally speaking, a player often tries to advance his
own pawns up the board in an attack on the opponent's
King, while keeping back and safeguarding the pawns
which shelter his own King.
Also, sometimes pawns can be used to divide the board
in two, such that the opponent cannot easily transfer his
pieces from one sector to another; if successful, this
strategy can allow for a winning attack -- but I wouldn't
worry about strategy at this point. Right now, you would
do better to simply improve the speed of the program and
its depth of search, focusing on the mantra: chess is 99%
tactics!
> 3. How to not allow opponent to develop pieces any idea.
Forget the opponent for a moment. Your program has
a horrible tendency to move its Queen too much, when it
ought to be developing the other pieces instead. You
can't stop the opponent from developing his pieces, but
you can match him, move for move.
> If these three things are included my game will be much stronger.
No. In order to be much stronger, you must either fix
the slowness/Java applet problem, or REMOVE some of
the things which are slowing down the tactical search and
thus limiting it to only 7, 8, or 9 plys.
My guess is that if you wrote a program which did nothing
more than add up the values of the men for both sides and
then tried to maximize its score, you could do better than
the approach used now. The point is, if the human opponent
has to come up with and implement a grand strategy in order
to win, he will have many opportunities to commit tactical,
game-losing errors. We humans seldom fail to seize upon
such opportunities, but we need computers to first provide
them! In the recent match between Deep Fritz -- a super-fast
program by comparison -- and world champion Kramnik, one
game was decided by a missed mate-on-the-move. Do you
really think that you need to worry about subtle positional
factors, when all you really need to do is *activate your
pieces* and then watch the humans -- even strong ones --
trip and fall?
Rather than try to explain what I mean, I would recommend
that you play over some Paul Morphy games, and then try
to get your program to DEVELOP its pieces in the opening
in that same style. It is better to "teach" the program to find
good, developing moves, as opposed to the approach of
"adding another line" each time it loses again.
"Give a man a fish, you feed him for a day. Teach a man to
fish, you feed him for life."
-- help bot (As described by TK, I am a font of wisdom -- 'tis true.)
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Date: 12 Jan 2007 01:01:00
From: Daniel W. Rouse Jr.
Subject: Re: Chess analysis Strategy.
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"Sanny" <[email protected] > wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Once a person told me why GetClub game was weak.
>
[snip...]
Whatever the issue may be, I should not have been able to get away with
moving my King all around the board like this:
(Computer is playing Black)
1. f3 e5
2. Kf2 Nc6
3. Ke3 Bc5
4. Ke4 d5
Then I tried an illegal move just to see how the chess program would
respond...
5. Kxe5
The chess program responded by moving my King back to the square it was
previously on--as it should, because the move is clearly illegal--but now I
also had control of the black pawn on e5. That behavior is a bug.
The only way to work around the bug and get control of my King once again
was to drop the black pawn on any other square other than e5, and then I
could once again move my King to a legal square. So, continuing with legal
moves, since the program didn't allow illegal moves...
5. Kd3 Bf5
6. Kc3 Bb4
7. Kb3 Nd4
8. Kxb4 Nc2
9. Kc5 ...
At that point, the game completely reset to "Welcome to Chess Game" and
presented me with the choices available for playing chess.
In comparison, here's what resulted when I tried to use the same moves
against ChessMaster 5500 set on Light (10 seconds per move):
(Computer is playing Black)
1. f3 e5
2. Kf2 Nc6
3. Ke3 Qh4
With Qh4, there was no way I could play Kd4 or put my King anywhere on the
d-rank!
4. Kd3 Qd4 Checkmate.
As expected, ChessMaster 5500 defeated me very quickly as the result of
moving my King as the priy opening piece.
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Date: 12 Jan 2007 00:35:46
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: Chess analysis Strategy.
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> Solve its tactical ineptitude first. Worry about strategy later.
>
> -Ron
Yes, Lots of tactical things were improved that's the reasion on
looking at last 10 recorded games played by strong players. I find the
players who used to beat Master Level in 30 moves are taking 40-50
Moves to even beat the Easy and Normal Levels.
A few players are now taking 50-60 moves to get a win. Basically they
win as GetClub's end game is not as good as it's middle game.
Each level see to a limited depth
Beginner Level upto 5 depth
Easy upto 6 depth
Normal upto 7 depth and so on.
Good players who are able to look beyond 8 depth can easily beat it's
easier levels.
Bye
Sanny
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
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Date: 12 Jan 2007 17:52:20
From: Ron
Subject: Re: Chess analysis Strategy.
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In article <[email protected] >,
"Sanny" <[email protected] > wrote:
>
> A few players are now taking 50-60 moves to get a win. Basically they
> win as GetClub's end game is not as good as it's middle game.
This is not true.
I recently started a game with began: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 Nf6
Now, this game took me a while to win, but to look at the final move
score is completely misleading because after:
4.de de 5.Qxd8+ Kxd8 6.Nxe5
I've won a pawn for nothing. I'm in complete control as my threats
against f7 will allow me to maintain the initiative. The game is over.
Now, it make take me 40 moves to win, but don't fool yourself into
thinking that's because I can only beat the game in the endgame.
No. In this game, I'm going to win in the endgame because that's the
proper way to exploit my advantage. I have a risk free win here, at move
6. It takes me 40 moves (or more) to drive the point home, but the
issue is never in doubt. The game is, essentially, over.
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Date: 11 Jan 2007 23:15:46
From: Ron
Subject: Re: Chess analysis Strategy.
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In article <[email protected] >,
"Sanny" <[email protected] > wrote:
> If these three things are included my game will be much stronger.
The only thing you should be worried about, with your program, is to
make it stop hanging material.
Until you can make it not drop pawns left and right, with no
provocation, at a speed of 20 seconds a move (and I mean REALLY 20
seconds a move. Not '20 seconds a move' which takes 150 seconds to
actually move, like your program currently does) everything else you do
is pointless.
Solve its tactical ineptitude first. Worry about strategy later.
-Ron
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