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Date: 06 Jan 2008 00:40:52
From: Sanny
Subject: Analyze this game between GetClub & Zester.
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Jester: (White) beginner: (Black) Game Played at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html View Recorded Game: http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?id=DM13954&game=Chess -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- White -- Black (Jester) -- (beginner) 1) Pe2-e4(2) Pe7-e6(0) 2) Pd2-d4(4) Pd7-d5(0) 3) Pe4-e5(6) Pc7-c5(0) 4) Pc2-c3(8) Nb8-c6(0) 5) Ng1-f3(6) Pc5-d4(12) 6) Pc3-d4(10) Bf8-b4(6) 7) Bc1-d2(12) Ng8-h6(12) 8) Bd2-b4(12) Nc6-b4(10) 9) Qd1-a4(12) Nb4-c6(20) 10) Bf1-b5(10) Ke8-g8(8) 11) Bb5-c6(42) Pb7-c6(12) 12) Qa4-c6(10) Ra8-b8(14) 13) Pb2-b3(16) Nh6-g4(22) 14) Ph2-h3(12) Ng4-h6(12) 15) Ke1-g1(10) Kg8-h8(8) 16) Nb1-d2(16) Nh6-f5(12) 17) Pg2-g4(12) Nf5-h4(14) 18) Ra1-c1(12) Ph7-h6(6) 19) Qc6-c5(14) Bc8-d7(6) 20) Qc5-c7(50) Bd7-b5(8) 21) Rf1-e1(12) Nh4-g6(10) 22) Pa2-a4(14) Bb5-d3(10) 23) Qc7-a7(14) Ng6-f4(16) 24) Kg1-h2(20) Bd3-e2(10) 25) Rc1-c3(14) Pf7-f5(22) 26) Pg4-f5(12) Rf8-f5(6) 27) Re1-g1(10) Qd8-f8(12) 28) Nf3-e1(12) Pg7-g5(20) 29) Rc3-c7(12) Kh8-g8(6) 30) Rc7-h7(12) Be2-d1(8) 31) Pf2-f3(12) Rb8-b4(12) 32) Ne1-d3(12) Nf4-d3(8) 33) Rg1-d1(12) Nd3-f4(16) 34) Rh7-c7(24) Ph6-h5(8) 35) Ph3-h4(12) Nf4-e2(20) 36) Qa7-a6(14) Ne2-d4(8) 37) Rc7-c8(34) Rf5-f3(8) 38) Rc8-f8(30) Rf3-f8(10) 39) Ph4-g5(10) Ph5-h4(16) 40) Kh2-h3(10) Rf8-f4(6) 41) Qa6-a7(14) Nd4-b3(8) 42) Pg5-g6(12) Kg8-f8(22) 43) Pa4-a5(12) Nb3-d2(8) 44) Pg6-g7(10) Kf8-g8(8) 45) Qa7-a8(10) Kg8-g7(8) 46) Rd1-g1(10) Rf4-g4(20) 47) Rg1-g4(70) Rb4-g4(12) 48) Kh3-g4(6) Kg7-f7(6) 49) Pa5-a6(12) Nd2-c4(22) 50) Kg4-g5(10) Ph4-h3(6) 51) Qa8-b7(14) Kf7-g8(12) 52) Kg5-f6(10) Ph3-h2(8) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jester: (White) beginner: (Black) Game Played at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html View Recorded Game: http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?id=DM13954&game=Chess Bye Sanny Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
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Date: 15 Jan 2008 04:44:35
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: Analyze this game between GetClub & Zester.
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On Jan 15, 4:04=A0pm, tin Brown <
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Date:
From: Martin Brown
Subject: Re: Analyze this game between GetClub & Zester.
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Date: 15 Jan 2008 01:56:29
From: help bot
Subject: Re: Analyze this game between GetClub & Zester.
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On Jan 15, 4:27 am, tin Brown <
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Date:
From: Martin Brown
Subject: Re: Analyze this game between GetClub & Zester.
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Date: 10 Jan 2008 21:44:06
From: help bot
Subject: Re: Analyze this game between GetClub & Zester.
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On Jan 10, 10:41 pm, Ralf Callenberg <[email protected] > wrote: > 10.01.2008 06:05, help bot: > > > because with "O-O" the program > > itself must figure out the whole thing: departure > > squares and destination squares, not just a > > portion. Chess is a complex game... . > > A programmer who has a problem with 0-0 instead of e1-g1, should go back > and play Tetris or Tic-Tac-Toe and stay away from programming anything > which is beyond 10 Print "Hello" 20 Goto 10. That program of yours would waste a whole lot of paper and ink, since it is an endless loop. Ah-- maybe you just "print" to a CRT? Much better. In fact, I believe I have written this same program, some centuries ago, back when they called a PDP/11 a micro-supercomputer, or something along those lines. BASIC language, and because most CRTs were green phosphor, the amber ones were both rare and beautiful. I like the idea of taking a legal-move generator from the public domain, and then focusing on tweaking the chess-knowledge part of the program, rather than a never-ending struggle to get just the legal moves portion right. But then, the program is not entirely your own creation, is it? -- help bot
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Date: 10 Jan 2008 21:36:37
From: help bot
Subject: Re: Analyze this game between GetClub & Zester.
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On Jan 10, 11:47 am, "Thomas T. Veldhouse" <[email protected] > wrote: > > I doubt any experienced player here is having trouble > > following the notation. However, this funky free-style > > notation cannot be input *automatically* into a chess > > program for anno-Fritzation; they have to hand-enter > > the moves, which is tedious. > > And as far as "Fritzation" goes ... why doesn't Sanny spring for a few dollars > [or whatever currency you wish to trade in from the vendor of your choice] and > actually buy the software and do this type of analysis himself? Heck, old > Fritz 7 can be found on Ebay for pennies and is still much stronger than his > engine and adequate for the analysis he is looking for. In fact, Fritz 5.32 is now given away for free, and IMO, that engine would demolish the GetClub program quite easily on any level. > Any questions as to > Why something is better should be directed to the rec.games.chess.analysis > group in any event. True. There are a lot of postings here which include bizarre newsgroups on top of the obviously appropriate one(s). > It just seems that Sanny is [possibly] making money off of your analysis and > free advice. He likely has made millions off of my advice, just like that imbecile who once said to me: "I see no advantage to a /graphical/ user interface". I had to explain that it's much like color TV: once you've seen it, you can't just go back to black & white. So he stole the idea, and the rest, as they say, is history. ; >D Seriously, I think Sanny is not doing very well in that regard. Look at the chess section of his site and you will see that the vast majority of recorded games are played by a relative few players. The problem with using Fritz to try and understand games is that while it's moves are good, it's ability to explain the "why" of the moves is horrible. As we saw where Sanny asked about the relative values of Bishops and Knights, he is starting from a place of almost zero chess knowledge. His "team" of programmers seems unable to digest any existing works on the theory of chess programming, and is shooting in the dark. They still don't have tactics mastered to the Class B level, or so it seems. -- help bot
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Date: 10 Jan 2008 06:58:48
From: SBD
Subject: Re: Analyze this game between GetClub & Zester.
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On Jan 9, 11:05=A0pm, help bot <[email protected] > wrote: > On Jan 9, 8:33 pm, SBD <[email protected]> wrote: > > > On Jan 7, 1:48 am, help bot <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > =A0 Castling is denoted by either "O-O", or else by > > > "O-O-O", which is a throwback to the old descriptive > > > style of notation. > > > No it isn't. > > =A0 A very long time ago, I noticed that some tabletop > computers entered castling moves by naming the > square the King (only) left and arrived on, like so: > > =A0E1 - G1. > > =A0 That is an algebraic notation. =A0 As is 0-0 or 0-0-0, no holdover or throwback from descriptive.
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Date: 09 Jan 2008 21:05:23
From: help bot
Subject: Re: Analyze this game between GetClub & Zester.
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On Jan 9, 8:33 pm, SBD <[email protected] > wrote: > On Jan 7, 1:48 am, help bot <[email protected]> wrote: > > > Castling is denoted by either "O-O", or else by > > "O-O-O", which is a throwback to the old descriptive > > style of notation. > > No it isn't. A very long time ago, I noticed that some tabletop computers entered castling moves by naming the square the King (only) left and arrived on, like so: E1 - G1. That is an algebraic notation. The notation used by Sanny's people at GetClub is similar, in that they name the departure and destination squares for the King, while ignoring the Rook entirely. Only an inherent recognition that a square (or two) was skipped over allows one to deduce that a castling move has occurred, since that would otherwise be an illegal King move. Now, people who are accustomed to seeing "O-O" or "O-O-O" may get thrown off a bit by the notation style at GetClub, and many have complained that illegal moves sometimes appear at the tail end of a game-- most often a King moving into check or else remaining in check. It creates a small problem for the programmers, because with "O-O" the program itself must figure out the whole thing: departure squares and destination squares, not just a portion. Chess is a complex game... . -- help bot
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Date: 11 Jan 2008 04:41:50
From: Ralf Callenberg
Subject: Re: Analyze this game between GetClub & Zester.
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10.01.2008 06:05, help bot: > because with "O-O" the program > itself must figure out the whole thing: departure > squares and destination squares, not just a > portion. Chess is a complex game... . A programmer who has a problem with 0-0 instead of e1-g1, should go back and play Tetris or Tic-Tac-Toe and stay away from programming anything which is beyond 10 Print "Hello" 20 Goto 10. Greetings, Ralf
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Date: 09 Jan 2008 17:33:26
From: SBD
Subject: Re: Analyze this game between GetClub & Zester.
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On Jan 7, 1:48=A0am, help bot <[email protected] > wrote: > =A0 Castling is denoted by either "O-O", or else by > "O-O-O", which is a throwback to the old descriptive > style of notation. No it isn't.
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Date: 07 Jan 2008 00:11:42
From: help bot
Subject: Re: Analyze this game between GetClub & Zester.
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On Jan 7, 2:17 am, Sanny <[email protected] > wrote: > > I notice from the times that both programs are > > moving fairly quickly, so it comes as no surprise > > that the play was not "stellar". > In future the game will play much better as a new technique has been > found by my programmers to improve the game speed and it will play > better than Jester. Just wait a week. > > Essentially, once the book ran out for Black > > (indicated by move times = 0), theGetClub > > program grossly mishandled a closed position, > > donated a pawn, and allowed a decisive > I found it Chastled and gave the Pawn It should have played Bishop/ > Queen to protect its knight from Bishop+Queen attack. > > On analysis on Computer, I found It gave only 0.3 advantage to White > after it Captured the Pawn instead of 1.0. I do not understand why > white gets only 0.3 advantage. It's probably because with correct play Black can seize the now-open c-file. > Further when Knight is played by Black it increased the score from 0.3 > to 1.0 for While. Why was White earlier had advantage of just 0.3 > despite it was a pawn up? Black can seize the open c-file; maybe the program "saw" a Black Rook reaching the seventh rank, and gave a bonus for that? > > Here's the scoop: in this opening, White is > > happy when Black releases the tension by an > > early cxd4, as in this game. There was no good > > reason for Black to voluntarily surrender a pawn; > > Pawn could have been saved by playing Queen/Bishop to protect Black > Knight that got pin with King. So I think it was Chastling that was > wrong Move? That is correct. When White threatened to win a pawn after B-b5, Black could have defended that threat with ...B-d7 -- a normal developing move. Then, White would be in a small quandry, as Black now "threatens" ...p-a6, and answering with BxN loses the minor exchange. > > Look again at the move times: at roughly 12 > > seconds per move in many cases, nobody here > > is going to be "WOWed" by the overall quality of > > play. But on some of the higher levels I have > > seen theGetClubprogram play some very goodchess, now and then. > > Soon Beginner Level will play much stronger Just wait for a week. I recently faced a human opponent who tried to hold onto the Queen's Gambit pawn -- apparently, another victim of the great Bernard Parham's school of chess. These games against a nearly book-less chess program at the Beginner level remind me of my huge inherent advantage: I can judge when to develop, and when to grab material. At twelve seconds per move, your program is just tossing a coin, for it lacks the time or the wherewithal to make such judgments. On the higher levels, the computer's vastly superior speed allows it to try and calculate the outcomes, so things are much more difficult for me. -- help bot
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Date: 06 Jan 2008 23:48:34
From: help bot
Subject: Re: Analyze this game between GetClub & Zester.
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On Jan 7, 1:26 am, Sanny <[email protected] > wrote: > > > Please analyze the game. > > > Please post it in standard algebraic notation. > > What is algebraic notation.? > > I think for example 40) Kh2-h3(10) Rf8-f4(6) > > It means King was moved from h2 to h3 in 10 seconds by White. > and Rook was moved from f8 to f4 in 6 seconds. by Black. > > So it is easy to follow. It first displays the piece that is being > moved R, N, B, K, Q, P and then the place where the piece original was > and then the place where it was taken to. > > So Kh2-h3(10) means K (King) is moved from h2 to h3 in 10 seconds. It > is very simple to follow above Notation. > > Are you finding it difficult to understand the moves then you can see > whole game Animated on your Computer at Recorded Game. I doubt any experienced player here is having trouble following the notation. However, this funky free-style notation cannot be input *automatically* into a chess program for anno-Fritzation; they have to hand-enter the moves, which is tedious. Here's an example of a standard notation style, for comparison: 1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. e5 c5 4. c3 Nc6 5. Nf3 cd 6. cd Bb4+ 7. Bd2 Castling is denoted by either "O-O", or else by "O-O-O", which is a throwback to the old descriptive style of notation. -- help bot
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Date: 10 Jan 2008 16:47:53
From: Thomas T. Veldhouse
Subject: Re: Analyze this game between GetClub & Zester.
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In rec.games.chess.computer help bot <[email protected] > wrote: > > I doubt any experienced player here is having trouble > following the notation. However, this funky free-style > notation cannot be input *automatically* into a chess > program for anno-Fritzation; they have to hand-enter > the moves, which is tedious. > And as far as "Fritzation" goes ... why doesn't Sanny spring for a few dollars [or whatever currency you wish to trade in from the vendor of your choice] and actually buy the software and do this type of analysis himself? Heck, old Fritz 7 can be found on Ebay for pennies and is still much stronger than his engine and adequate for the analysis he is looking for. Any questions as to Why something is better should be directed to the rec.games.chess.analysis group in any event. It just seems that Sanny is [possibly] making money off of your analysis and free advice. -- Thomas T. Veldhouse America is the country where you buy a lifetime supply of aspirin for one dollar, and use it up in two weeks.
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Date: 06 Jan 2008 23:17:14
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: Analyze this game between GetClub & Zester.
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> =A0 I notice from the times that both programs are > moving fairly quickly, so it comes as no surprise > that the play was not "stellar". In future the game will play much better as a new technique has been found by my programmers to improve the game speed and it will play better than Jester. Just wait a week. Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html > =A0 Essentially, once the book ran out for Black > (indicated by move times =3D 0), theGetClub > program grossly mishandled a closed position, > donated a pawn, and allowed a decisive I found it Chastled and gave the Pawn It should have played Bishop/ Queen to protect its knight from Bishop+Queen attack. On analysis on Computer, I found It gave only 0.3 advantage to White after it Captured the Pawn instead of 1.0. I do not understand why white gets only 0.3 advantage. Further when Knight is played by Black it increased the score from 0.3 to 1.0 for While. Why was White earlier had advantage of just 0.3 despite it was a pawn up? Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html > > =A0 Here's the scoop: in this opening, White is > happy when Black releases the tension by an > early cxd4, as in this game. =A0There was no good > reason for Black to voluntarily surrender a pawn; Pawn could have been saved by playing Queen/Bishop to protect Black Knight that got pin with King. So I think it was Chastling that was wrong Move? Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html > =A0 Look again at the move times: at roughly 12 > seconds per move in many cases, nobody here > is going to be "WOWed" by the overall quality of > play. =A0But on some of the higher levels I have > seen theGetClubprogram play some very goodchess, now and then. > Soon Beginner Level will play much stronger Just wait for a week. Bye Sanny Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
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Date: 06 Jan 2008 22:26:45
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: Analyze this game between GetClub & Zester.
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On Jan 7, 4:46=A0am, Ron <[email protected] > wrote: > In article > <efc70d8c-6b48-4817-990d-982ebadf1...@k39g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, > > =A0Sanny <[email protected]> wrote: > > Please analyze the game. > > Please post it in standard algebraic notation. What is algebraic notation.? I think for example 40) Kh2-h3(10) Rf8-f4(6) It means King was moved from h2 to h3 in 10 seconds by White. and Rook was moved from f8 to f4 in 6 seconds. by Black. So it is easy to follow. It first displays the piece that is being moved R, N, B, K, Q, P and then the place where the piece original was and then the place where it was taken to. So Kh2-h3(10) means K (King) is moved from h2 to h3 in 10 seconds. It is very simple to follow above Notation. Are you finding it difficult to understand the moves then you can see whole game Animated on your Computer at Recorded Game. View Recorded Game: http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?id=3DDM13954&game=3D= Chess Bye Sanny Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
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Date: 06 Jan 2008 20:46:57
From: help bot
Subject: Re: Analyze this game between GetClub & Zester.
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On Jan 6, 3:40 am, Sanny <[email protected] > wrote: > Jester: (White) > beginner: (Black) > Game Played at:http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html > View Recorded Game:http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?id=DM13954&game=Chess > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > White -- Black > (Jester) -- (beginner) > > 1) Pe2-e4(2) Pe7-e6(0) > 2) Pd2-d4(4) Pd7-d5(0) > 3) Pe4-e5(6) Pc7-c5(0) > 4) Pc2-c3(8) Nb8-c6(0) > 5) Ng1-f3(6) Pc5-d4(12) > 6) Pc3-d4(10) Bf8-b4(6) > 7) Bc1-d2(12) Ng8-h6(12) > 8) Bd2-b4(12) Nc6-b4(10) > 9) Qd1-a4(12) Nb4-c6(20) > 10) Bf1-b5(10) Ke8-g8(8) > 11) Bb5-c6(42) Pb7-c6(12) > 12) Qa4-c6(10) Ra8-b8(14) > 13) Pb2-b3(16) Nh6-g4(22) > 14) Ph2-h3(12) Ng4-h6(12) > 15) Ke1-g1(10) Kg8-h8(8) > 16) Nb1-d2(16) Nh6-f5(12) > 17) Pg2-g4(12) Nf5-h4(14) > 18) Ra1-c1(12) Ph7-h6(6) > 19) Qc6-c5(14) Bc8-d7(6) > 20) Qc5-c7(50) Bd7-b5(8) > 21) Rf1-e1(12) Nh4-g6(10) > 22) Pa2-a4(14) Bb5-d3(10) > 23) Qc7-a7(14) Ng6-f4(16) > 24) Kg1-h2(20) Bd3-e2(10) > 25) Rc1-c3(14) Pf7-f5(22) > 26) Pg4-f5(12) Rf8-f5(6) > 27) Re1-g1(10) Qd8-f8(12) > 28) Nf3-e1(12) Pg7-g5(20) > 29) Rc3-c7(12) Kh8-g8(6) > 30) Rc7-h7(12) Be2-d1(8) > 31) Pf2-f3(12) Rb8-b4(12) > 32) Ne1-d3(12) Nf4-d3(8) > 33) Rg1-d1(12) Nd3-f4(16) > 34) Rh7-c7(24) Ph6-h5(8) > 35) Ph3-h4(12) Nf4-e2(20) > 36) Qa7-a6(14) Ne2-d4(8) > 37) Rc7-c8(34) Rf5-f3(8) > 38) Rc8-f8(30) Rf3-f8(10) > 39) Ph4-g5(10) Ph5-h4(16) > 40) Kh2-h3(10) Rf8-f4(6) > 41) Qa6-a7(14) Nd4-b3(8) > 42) Pg5-g6(12) Kg8-f8(22) > 43) Pa4-a5(12) Nb3-d2(8) > 44) Pg6-g7(10) Kf8-g8(8) > 45) Qa7-a8(10) Kg8-g7(8) > 46) Rd1-g1(10) Rf4-g4(20) > 47) Rg1-g4(70) Rb4-g4(12) > 48) Kh3-g4(6) Kg7-f7(6) > 49) Pa5-a6(12) Nd2-c4(22) > 50) Kg4-g5(10) Ph4-h3(6) > 51) Qa8-b7(14) Kf7-g8(12) > 52) Kg5-f6(10) Ph3-h2(8) > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Jester: (White) > beginner: (Black) I notice from the times that both programs are moving fairly quickly, so it comes as no surprise that the play was not "stellar". Essentially, once the book ran out for Black (indicated by move times = 0), the GetClub program grossly mishandled a closed position, donated a pawn, and allowed a decisive penetration of the heavy pieces. Still, Jester as White did not exactly keep control, allowing all sorts of fun and games on the f-file and behind his own lines. Here's the scoop: in this opening, White is happy when Black releases the tension by an early cxd4, as in this game. There was no good reason for Black to voluntarily surrender a pawn; that's just weak play. White, for his part ought to have grabbed the c-file earlier, putting an end to shenanigans via a one-two-three punch of Queen, Rook, and Rook against the exposed King; he cannot just fiddle around with a Black Knight on f4! Look again at the move times: at roughly 12 seconds per move in many cases, nobody here is going to be "WOWed" by the overall quality of play. But on some of the higher levels I have seen the GetClub program play some very good chess, now and then. -- help bot
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Date: 06 Jan 2008 04:42:01
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: Analyze this game between GetClub & Zester.
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On Jan 6, 3:58=A0pm, "Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (Wlod)" <[email protected] > wrote: > Say "please". > > =A0 =A0 Wlod Please analyze the game. Bye Sanny Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
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Date: 06 Jan 2008 15:46:58
From: Ron
Subject: Re: Analyze this game between GetClub & Zester.
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In article <efc70d8c-6b48-4817-990d-982ebadf1977@k39g2000hsf.googlegroups.com >, Sanny <[email protected] > wrote: > Please analyze the game. Please post it in standard algebraic notation.
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Date: 06 Jan 2008 02:58:59
From: Wlodzimierz Holsztynski (Wlod)
Subject: Re: Analyze this game between GetClub & Zester.
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Say "please". Wlod
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