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Main
Date: 26 Apr 2008 22:57:42
From: Sanny
Subject: Analyze game between Help Bot & Normal Level
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Below is a decent game, But in the end Help Bot was a pawn ahead. I
found at move 17... Nf6xe4 Help Bot took the Pawn. Was there any way
for Normal Level to save that Pawn, As all moves were forced moves.
Game Played between help bot and normal at GetClub.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
help bot: (Black)
normal: (White)
Game Played at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
View Recorded Game: http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?id=DM19732&game=Chess
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
White -- Black
(normal) -- (help bot)
1. d2-d4{0} d7-d6{14}
2. Qd1-d3{138} g7-g6{52}
3. d4-d5{116} Bf8-g7{24}
4. Nb1-c3{92} Ng8-f6{46}
5. Ng1-f3{84} Ke8-g8{10}
6. e2-e4{180} c7-c5{112}
7. Bf1-e2{200} Nb8-a6{46}
8. Ke1-g1{82} Na6-c7{88}
9. h2-h3{158} Ra8-b8{64}
10. Bc1-e3{252} b7-b5{28}
11. a2-a3{224} a7-a5{140}
12. Ra1-a2{84} Bc8-d7{208}
13. Nf3-g5{278} b5-b4{22}
14. Nc3-b1{136} Bd7-b5{102}
15. Qd3-d1{84} h7-h6{26}
16. Be2-b5{80} Nc7-b5{22}
17. Ng5-f3{114} Nf6-e4{20}
18. Qd1-d3{158} Ne4-f6{28}
19. c2-c4{206} Nb5-c7{44}
20. b2-b3{132} Rb8-a8{36}
21. Be3-f4{192} Qd8-d7{60}
22. Ra2-e2{132} Rf8-e8{58}
23. Rf1-e1{112} Nc7-a6{54}
24. Re2-e3{158} Ra8-a7{64}
25. a3-a4{158} Na6-c7{38}
26. Re1-e2{168} Nc7-a8{12}
27. Nb1-d2{98} Na8-b6{32}
28. g2-g4{158} h6-h5{66}
29. g4-g5{84} Nf6-h7{26}
30. h3-h4{114} Nh7-f8{68}
31. Nd2-e4{88} Ra7-a8{114}
32. Ne4-g3{90} Ra8-d8{66}
33. Re3-e4{86} e7-e5{110}
34. d5-e6{114} Re8-e6{48}
35. Re2-d2{142} d6-d5{40}
36. c4-d5{124} Nb6-d5{62}
37. Bf4-e5{90} Nd5-c3{34}
38. Qd3-d7{118} Rd8-d7{10}
39. Be5-c3{132} Bg7-c3{40}
40. Rd2-d7{96} Nf8-d7{10}
41. Re4-e6{138} f7-e6{8}
42. Ng3-e4{138} Bc3-g7{158}
43. Nf3-d2{110} Bg7-e5{68}
44. Nd2-c4{82} Be5-c7{20}
45. f2-f3{102} Kg8-f8{78}
46. Nc4-b2{102} Kf8-e7{138}
47. Kg1-f2{156} e6-e5{6}
48. Nb2-d3{82} c5-c4{156}
49. b3-c4{154} Nd7-f8{192}
50. Kf2-e3{140} Nf8-e6{62}
51. Ne4-f6{92} Bc7-d6{210}
52. Ke3-e4{92} Ne6-c5{142}
53. Nd3-c5{102} Bd6-c5{6}
54. Ke4-e5{82} b4-b3{36}
55. Nf6-d5{122} Ke7-f7{44}
56. Nd5-c3{130} b3-b2{38}
57. f3-f4{158} Bc5-f2{74}
58. Nc3-b1{134} Bf2-h4{54}
59. c4-c5{190} Bh4-f2{92}
60. c5-c6{90} Bf2-b6{16}
61. Ke5-d6{108} h5-h4{24}
62. f4-f5{216} g6-f5{30}
63. Kd6-d7{114} h4-h3{20}
64. g5-g6{106} Kf7-g6{20}
65. Kd7-e6{88} h3-h2{30}
66. c6-c7{160} Bb6-c7{18}
67. Ke6-d7{86} Qh2-h1(Q)
68. Nb1-c3(100) Pf5-f4(34)
69. Nc3-b5(192) Qb2-b1(Q)
70. Kd7-c7(166)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
help bot: (Black)
normal: (White)
Game Played at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
View Recorded Game: http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?id=DM19732&game=Chess
Which are the moves you think GetClub had played wrongly and Why?
Help Bot was thinking 1-2 min / move So it was a Serious Game by Help
Bot and not a rapid game.
Bye
Sanny
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
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Date: 07 May 2008 09:44:33
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: It is Strange
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> You have to make the program able to obtain the win too. Tablebases
> might be the easiest way here.
Tablebases are 1 MB- 10 MB size So download time of Applet will
increase a lot. So thats not possible for Applet.
Bye
Sanny
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
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Date:
From: Martin Brown
Subject: Re: It is Strange
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Date:
From: Martin Brown
Subject: Re: It is Strange
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Date:
From: Martin Brown
Subject: Re: It is Strange
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Date: 03 May 2008 12:25:11
From: help bot
Subject: Re: It is Strange
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On May 2, 5:09 am, Martin Brown <
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Date: 03 May 2008 12:21:06
From: help bot
Subject: Re: It is Strange
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On May 2, 4:28 am, Sanny <[email protected] > wrote:
> I remember once GetClub had 2 bishop and it was unable to give the
> Mate and Help Bot had to resign. Then Help Bot Complained this game is
> draw and I had to Resign to finish the game.
>
> So now when Opponent has 2 Bishops Left I declared it a draw.
>
> Now, you are saying It is a Win?
Sanny, it is a draw by the fifty-moves rule or by
the threefold repetition of position rule if neither
side makes headway-- as in *that game*.
> If I give it a Win in your case then why not give it a win for
> GetClubs case.
I don't want you to "give me" a win; I was cheated
out of the opportunity to finish the game according
to the rules of chess. Had it not wrongly declared
the game over, I would very quickly have won. Note
that my King was already in the center, the enemy
King already trapped to one side-- this means I
need not worry over the fifty-moves draw rule at all
(as I would if we started from the worst-case
position).
> Same situation both player has to be given same set of rules.
No illegal interventions?
> If having 2 Bishops is draw when GetClub have them, then same is true
> for the Opponent.
No. It is a win, no matter who has the two
Bishops. But you can't butt in and declare the
game won (or drawn); a game is between two
players. "No progress" will eventually result in
a draw, in accordance with the rules of chess.
> Moreove when the Game is Drawn your Rating is not affected. So in such
> case atleast you do not loose any point.
What about my record? The display indicates
that I have "lost" or "drawn" many, many games
which in fact were wins or draws for me. And I
don't believe you about the no-effect on ratings
part. I expect I could refute that claim easily, if
it really mattered (which it doesn't).
The rules (i.e. "laws") of chess are very complex,
and THAT is certainly no fault of Sanny's. I just
wish he would at least *try* to accommodate the
actual rules, and not always "err" in the direction
of bogus wins or draws for his program. It reminds
me of the bogus claims that the GetClub program
is better than Rybka, that it has been "improved"
after each failure, and so forth. It all smacks of
rank dishonesty; perhaps Sanny is trying to earn
his way into the Evans ratpack? Or maybe this
is all a bizarre experiment in psychology-- how
will people react to this or that lunacy... .
-- help bot
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Date: 02 May 2008 22:49:04
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: Analyze game between Help Bot & Normal Level
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> If it is the computer with the extra material then it has to offer a
> draw because it doesn't know how to win. But it cannot claim a draw
> against a human opponent with that same extra material just because it
> doesn't know how to win. You could always add tablebases to sort this
> out onces and for all.
Ok thing has been Corrected. Now when someone has 2 Bishops game will
not stop there and you will be allowed to finish the game. And incase
computer is unable to bring Mate you have to Resign to end the game.
Naturally getting 2 extra Bishops is worth getting a win.
Bye
Sanny
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
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Date: 02 May 2008 22:48:12
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: It is Strange
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> Not at all. If the opponent has more than two brain cells to rub
> together he will win. One such winning position with the unlucky loser
> trapped in a corner looks like this.
> _____________
>
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Date: 02 May 2008 22:47:17
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: Analyze game between Help Bot & Normal Level
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> > Is there anything it does correctly?
>
> =A0It seems to always get the correct position set up
> at the beginning, and oddly enough, it also seems
> to play legal moves -- except the final one which we
> are not supposed to "see", where it moves its King
> into check.
Ok thing has been Corrected. Now when someone has 2 Bishops game will
not stop there and you will be allowed to finish the game. And incase
computer is unable to bring Mate you have to Resign to end the game.
Naturally getting 2 extra Bishops is worth getting a win.
Bye
Sanny
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
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Date: 03 May 2008 10:20:05
From: Kenneth Sloan
Subject: Re: Analyze game between Help Bot & Normal Level
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Sanny wrote:
>>> Is there anything it does correctly?
>> It seems to always get the correct position set up
>> at the beginning, and oddly enough, it also seems
>> to play legal moves -- except the final one which we
>> are not supposed to "see", where it moves its King
>> into check.
>
> Ok thing has been Corrected. Now when someone has 2 Bishops game will
> not stop there and you will be allowed to finish the game. And incase
> computer is unable to bring Mate you have to Resign to end the game.
>
This is your idea of a "correction"? If the computer is unable to
"bring Mate", then it should offer a draw, or resign itself. [or, of
course, accept a draw offer or a draw CLAIM based on the 50-move rule].
Why should the human have to resign?
--
Kenneth Sloan [email protected]
Computer and Information Sciences +1-205-932-2213
University of Alabama at Birmingham FAX +1-205-934-5473
Birmingham, AL 35294-1170 http://KennethRSloan.com/
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Date: 02 May 2008 22:46:35
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: Analyze game between Help Bot & Normal Level
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> =A0 I am not going to studiously avoid winning by
> trading down to certain endings, just because
> your Web site doesn't know the rules ofchess.Chess, you see, is a game, an=
d in these we all
> have to accept the actual rules-- otherwise we
> can't play! =A0It's like Mr. Kasparov, who decided
> that the touch-move rule did not apply if he was
> going to hang a piece-- or rather, thought he
> was. =A0That's not realchess.
Ok thing has been Corrected. Now when someone has 2 Bishops game will
not stop there and you will be allowed to finish the game. And incase
computer is unable to bring Mate you have to Resign to end the game.
Naturally getting 2 extra Bishops is worth getting a win.
Bye
Sanny
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
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Date:
From: Martin Brown
Subject: Re: It is Strange
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Date: 02 May 2008 01:28:20
From: Sanny
Subject: It is Strange
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I remember once GetClub had 2 bishop and it was unable to give the
Mate and Help Bot had to resign. Then Help Bot Complained this game is
draw and I had to Resign to finish the game.
So now when Opponent has 2 Bishops Left I declared it a draw.
Now, you are saying It is a Win?
If I give it a Win in your case then why not give it a win for
GetClubs case.
Same situation both player has to be given same set of rules.
If having 2 Bishops is draw when GetClub have them, then same is true
for the Opponent.
Moreove when the Game is Drawn your Rating is not affected. So in such
case atleast you do not loose any point.
Bye
Sanny
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
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Date: 07 May 2008 20:03:51
From: Patrick Volk
Subject: Re: It is Strange
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On Fri, 2 May 2008 01:28:20 -0700 (PDT), Sanny <[email protected] >
wrote:
>I remember once GetClub had 2 bishop and it was unable to give the
>Mate and Help Bot had to resign. Then Help Bot Complained this game is
>draw and I had to Resign to finish the game.
>
>So now when Opponent has 2 Bishops Left I declared it a draw.
>
>Now, you are saying It is a Win?
>
>If I give it a Win in your case then why not give it a win for
>GetClubs case.
>
>Same situation both player has to be given same set of rules.
>
>If having 2 Bishops is draw when GetClub have them, then same is true
>for the Opponent.
>
>Moreove when the Game is Drawn your Rating is not affected. So in such
>case atleast you do not loose any point.
>
>Bye
>Sanny
>
>Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
>
I have to make the observation that it indeed strange that Sanny has
been here for over a year, claiming how his program has improved, but
hasn't quite gotten the details down (as in if the computer thinks
it's a draw, it should offer one, and should accept one from a human
player if it thinks it cannot win).
Or how Elo works (draws ain't no change generally)
All the while, the main content of the r.g.c newsgroup has dwindled
under the Sanny spam. Still trying to brute force it (in Java no
less).
C'mon Sam, Ray, Antonio, everybody.
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Date: 02 May 2008 21:52:29
From: Kenneth Sloan
Subject: Re: It is Strange
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Sanny wrote:
> I remember once GetClub had 2 bishop and it was unable to give the
> Mate and Help Bot had to resign. Then Help Bot Complained this game is
> draw and I had to Resign to finish the game.
>
> So now when Opponent has 2 Bishops Left I declared it a draw.
>
> Now, you are saying It is a Win?
>
> If I give it a Win in your case then why not give it a win for
> GetClubs case.
Because GetClub doesn't know how to achieve the win. Everyone else does.
--
Kenneth Sloan [email protected]
Computer and Information Sciences +1-205-932-2213
University of Alabama at Birmingham FAX +1-205-934-5473
Birmingham, AL 35294-1170 http://KennethRSloan.com/
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Date: 01 May 2008 12:18:52
From: help bot
Subject: Re: Analyze game between Help Bot & Normal Level
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On May 1, 9:59 am, Kenneth Sloan <[email protected] > wrote:
> Sanny wrote:
>
> > It will only devlare a difficult drawish game to a Draw. And with Draw
> > games you do not loose Ratings.
>
> So, it plays incorrectly, and it rates incorrectly?
>
> Is there anything it does correctly?
It seems to always get the correct position set up
at the beginning, and oddly enough, it also seems
to play legal moves -- except the final one which we
are not supposed to "see", where it moves its King
into check.
A few issues remaining:
1) improper handling of draws and draw claims;
2) advance level is nearly impossible to play,
unless you are operating a 3000-rated monster
which crushes the program *quickly*;
3) sometimes the program goes into a deep
think, on move one, as White;
4) when there is but one legal move, the GC
program may think for an hour before deciding
which move to play.
-- help bot
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Date: 01 May 2008 12:12:49
From: help bot
Subject: Re: Analyze game between Help Bot & Normal Level
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On May 1, 4:20 am, Sanny <[email protected] > wrote:
> > When mere incompetence is the problem,
> > the results are *random*, favoring either side
> > in no particular pattern. AtGetClub, the
> > result is always a free win or draw for your
> > program. Just look at the reported win/loss
>
> Ok what about.
>
> 1. Humans can take as much time as needed?
Good point. For rated games, you could place
a limit, so that the poor microprocessor is not so
vastly outclassed by us "speedy" thinkers, by
humans.
> 2. Human can take help of Opening Books?
True. Especially with the lack of time limits, if I
want I can go to, say, chessopenings.com and
try -- I say TRY -- to find some info on what line
we are playing. Or I could crack open a chess
book or two; your program can't do that.
> 3. Humans can take help from other Chess Computers?
This is obviously a problem. Zebediah, for instance,
is clearly operating a decent chess program, against
which your Java applet has no real chance. I don't
have an answer to this problem; but if you wanted to,
you could arbitrarily "ban" players you believe are
"cheating", just as you quite arbitrarily do so many
other things.
> So Humans have a lot of opportunity to cheat the poor GetClub Program.
True. So then, your reasoning is that two wrongs
make a right (that's incorrect math, by the way).
> If you win the game with good margin it will never be able to cheat
> you.
Oh, I have had all sorts of different margins by
which I was winning, only to be cheated one way
or another. I don't think it has anything to do
with /margins/.
> Only when the game ends in a Draw It can take little Benefit.
But the game did not end in a draw; it was a win
for me! : >D
The way I see it, your Web site simply has the
wrong result recorded, and the wrong ratings as a
result. Even *if* the game had to be adjudicated
at that point -- let's say that WWIII broke out or
something crazy like that -- the correct adjudica-
tion was a win for me. I cannot be held responsible
if you and all your loony programmers are insane... .
: >D
> It will only devlare a difficult drawish game to a Draw. And with Draw
> games you do not loose Ratings.
I am not going to studiously avoid winning by
trading down to certain endings, just because
your Web site doesn't know the rules of chess.
Chess, you see, is a game, and in these we all
have to accept the actual rules-- otherwise we
can't play! It's like Mr. Kasparov, who decided
that the touch-move rule did not apply if he was
going to hang a piece-- or rather, thought he
was. That's not real chess.
-- help bot
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Date: 01 May 2008 07:01:20
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Analyze game between Help Bot & Normal Level
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> If you win the game with good margin it will never be able to cheat
> you. Only when the game ends in a Draw It can take little Benefit.
>
> It will only devlare a difficult drawish game to a Draw. And with Draw
> games you do not loose Ratings.
There is only one word for this: stupid. GitClub should play chess,
not some strange variant with its own rules about when you win and
"loose."
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Date: 01 May 2008 01:20:00
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: Analyze game between Help Bot & Normal Level
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> =A0 When mere incompetence is the problem,
> the results are *random*, favoring either side
> in no particular pattern. =A0AtGetClub, the
> result is always a free win or draw for your
> program. =A0Just look at the reported win/loss
Ok what about.
1. Humans can take as much time as needed?
2. Human can take help of Opening Books?
3. Humans can take help from other Chess Computers?
So Humans have a lot of opportunity to cheat the poor GetClub Program.
If you win the game with good margin it will never be able to cheat
you. Only when the game ends in a Draw It can take little Benefit.
It will only devlare a difficult drawish game to a Draw. And with Draw
games you do not loose Ratings.
Bye
Sanny
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
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Date: 01 May 2008 14:20:36
From: Kenneth Sloan
Subject: Re: Analyze game between Help Bot & Normal Level
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Sanny wrote:
>> When mere incompetence is the problem,
>> the results are *random*, favoring either side
>> in no particular pattern. AtGetClub, the
>> result is always a free win or draw for your
>> program. Just look at the reported win/loss
>
> Ok what about.
>
> 1. Humans can take as much time as needed?
So can your program.
> 2. Human can take help of Opening Books?
So can your program.
> 3. Humans can take help from other Chess Computers?
So can your program
>
> So Humans have a lot of opportunity to cheat the poor GetClub Program.
And the GetClub Program has a log of opportunities to cheat the humans.
The difference is that you have no evidence that any human has cheate -
while we have lots of evidence that your program cheats on a regular basis.
--
Kenneth Sloan [email protected]
Computer and Information Sciences +1-205-932-2213
University of Alabama at Birmingham FAX +1-205-934-5473
Birmingham, AL 35294-1170 http://KennethRSloan.com/
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Date: 01 May 2008 08:59:39
From: Kenneth Sloan
Subject: Re: Analyze game between Help Bot & Normal Level
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Sanny wrote:
>
> It will only devlare a difficult drawish game to a Draw. And with Draw
> games you do not loose Ratings.
>
So, it plays incorrectly, and it rates incorrectly?
Is there anything it does correctly?
--
Kenneth Sloan [email protected]
Computer and Information Sciences +1-205-932-2213
University of Alabama at Birmingham FAX +1-205-934-5473
Birmingham, AL 35294-1170 http://KennethRSloan.com/
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Date: 01 May 2008 00:04:25
From: help bot
Subject: Re: Analyze game between Help Bot & Normal Level
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On May 1, 1:22 am, Sanny <[email protected] > wrote:
> > I "face it now" by trading down to an elementary win,
> > only to have the game wrongly adjudicated as a draw
> > because somebody atGetClubdoesn't know much
> > aboutchess. :>D
>
> > KBB vs. K is a forced win, just like KR vs. K is.
>
> I know KBB vs K is forced win.
>
> But when Computer has 2 Bishops extra and it will never be able to
> find a win. So the game will never end.
Ah, but it wasn't the GetClub program which had
the two Bishops; it was *me*.
Generally speaking, I can mate with a K&Q very
quickly and easily. With K&R just as easily, but
it may take a little longer. With KBB I have to
work more, to coordinate three men instead of
only two. But all of these are elementary wins,
even for me.
However, I will admit that with KBN, there is a
chance I could overstep the fifty moves rule, *if*
the program is an excellent defender. Another
theoretical win which I cannot always prevail in
would be K&Q vs. K&R-- if the program is
using the endgame table-bases.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Now, let me ask you honestly: why is it that
in every instance where something like this
happens, the result is slanted in favor of the
GetClub program-- and never the other way?
The answer is obvious: you cheat.
When mere incompetence is the problem,
the results are *random*, favoring either side
in no particular pattern. At GetClub, the
result is always a free win or draw for your
program. Just look at the reported win/loss
record for "help bot" and "nomorechess", for
instance: *numerous* losses and draws
which were in reality, not lost or drawn at all.
Yet I cannot think of a single case where I
was "given" a free win, in a losing position.
Coincidence? Not hardly.
-- help bot
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Date: 30 Apr 2008 22:22:17
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: Analyze game between Help Bot & Normal Level
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> =A0 I "face it now" by trading down to an elementary win,
> only to have the game wrongly adjudicated as a draw
> because somebody atGetClubdoesn't know much
> aboutchess. =A0:>D
>
> =A0 KBB vs. K is a forced win, just like KR vs. K is.
I know KBB vs K is forced win.
But when Computer has 2 Bishops extra and it will never be able to
find a win. So the game will never end.
I has giving these cases as Draw.
KBB vs K
KNN vs K
KNB vs K
KB vs K
KN vs K
KN vs KB
KN vs KR
KB vs KR
In all above cases game will end in a draw.
Bye
Sanny
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
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Date:
From: Martin Brown
Subject: Re: Analyze game between Help Bot & Normal Level
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Date: 30 Apr 2008 13:01:20
From: help bot
Subject: Re: Analyze game between Help Bot & Normal Level
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On Apr 30, 2:50 am, Sanny <[email protected] > wrote:
> > Hey, hey-- the program sees a checkmate
> > coming long before I can, these days! It stopped
> > the game here.
>
> Yes, It is Master Level and sees Mate in 8 Moves or about 16 ply deep.
>
> When this game was played there was a bug that have been removed now,
> Let me know how you face it now.
I "face it now" by trading down to an elementary win,
only to have the game wrongly adjudicated as a draw
because somebody at GetClub doesn't know much
about chess. : >D
KBB vs. K is a forced win, just like KR vs. K is.
-- help bot
>
> I saw the game where it was drawn as you had only 2 Bishops left.
>
> Game Played between help bot and master at GetClub.com
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> help bot: (White)
> master: (Black)
> Game Played at:http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
> View Recorded Game:http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?id=DM19867&game=Chess
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> White -- Black
> (help bot) -- (master)
>
> 1. f2-f4{12} d7-d5{356}
> 2. g2-g3{54} Ng8-f6{894}
> 3. Bf1-g2{28} Nb8-c6{516}
> 4. Ng1-f3{74} Nf6-g4{520}
> 5. Ke1-g1{134} g7-g6{380}
> 6. h2-h3{114} Ng4-f6{450}
> 7. d2-d3{62} Bf8-g7{598}
> 8. Qd1-e1{210} Ke8-g8{384}
> 9. c2-c3{162} Qd8-d6{420}
> 10. e2-e4{150} d5-e4{438}
> 11. d3-e4{16} Qd6-d3{386}
> 12. e4-e5{202} Nf6-e4{446}
> 13. Nb1-d2{56} Bc8-f5{324}
> 14. g3-g4{530} Ne4-d2{324}
> 15. Qe1-d2{40} Bf5-e4{658}
> 16. Qd2-d3{38} Be4-d3{668}
> 17. Rf1-d1{24} Bd3-e2{670}
> 18. Rd1-e1{336} Be2-f3{356}
> 19. Bg2-f3{6} Ra8-d8{336}
> 20. Bc1-e3{568} Rd8-d3{360}
> 21. Ra1-d1{64} Rd3-d1{494}
> 22. Re1-d1{18} Rf8-d8{500}
> 23. Rd1-d8{34} Nc6-d8{666}
> 24. Be3-a7{64} b7-b6{332}
> 25. Ba7-b8{146} Nd8-e6{388}
> 26. f4-f5{70} Ne6-g5{542}
> 27. Bf3-g2{84} Bg7-e5{412}
> 28. h3-h4{44} g6-f5{484}
> 29. h4-g5{20} f5-g4{322}
> 30. a2-a4{42} h7-h5{328}
> 31. g5-h6{46} Kg8-h7{556}
> 32. b2-b4{48} Kh7-h6{344}
> 33. a4-a5{30} b6-a5{1208}
> 34. b4-a5{8} Be5-c3{672}
> 35. Bb8-c7{32} f7-f5{1200}
> 36. a5-a6{62} Bc3-d4{634}
> 37. Kg1-f1{42} Kh6-g5{430}
> 38. Bc7-b8{30} Bd4-e3{408}
> 39. a6-a7{32} Be3-a7{670}
> 40. Bb8-a7{6} f5-f4{368}
> 41. Bg2-e4{36} e7-e5{980}
> 42. Ba7-b6{76} Kg5-f6{346}
> 43. Kf1-e2{76} Kf6-f7{522}
> 44. Be4-f5{34} g4-g3{452}
> 45. Bf5-e4{88} Kf7-e7{414}
> 46. Bb6-c5{30} Ke7-f6{628}
> 47. Bc5-d6{42} Kf6-e6{474}
> 48. Bd6-c7{46} Ke6-f6{642}
> 49. Ke2-f3{24} Kf6-e6{662}
> 50. Kf3-g4{16} Ke6-f6{336}
> 51. Be4-d5{36} f4-f3{374}
> 52. Kg4-g3{36} Kf6-f5{612}
> 53. Kg3-f3{18} e5-e4{486}
> 54. Kf3-e3{40} Kf5-g6{402}
> 55. Ke3-e4{22}
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> help bot: (White)
> master: (Black)
> Game Played at:http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
> View Recorded Game:http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?id=DM19867&game=Chess
>
> How do you think the Game is playing against you?
>
> Bye
> Sanny
>
> Play Chess at:http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
|
| | |
Date: 12 May 2008 02:27:46
From: Quadibloc
Subject: Re: It is Strange
|
On May 11, 11:51 am, Patrick Volk <[email protected] > wrote:
> I know if I were to undertake a chess engine, I wouldn't start with
> usenet... I'd start at the library or bookstore. There's thousands of
> pages on computer chess. That's not the fault of the group.
Or, failing that, the WWW might allow one to make at least a start,
although good books on the subject *would* be better.
John Savard
|
| | |
Date:
From: Martin Brown
Subject: Re: Analyze game between Help Bot & Normal Level
|
|
| |
Date: 29 Apr 2008 23:50:30
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: Analyze game between Help Bot & Normal Level
|
> =A0 Hey, hey-- the program sees a checkmate
> coming long before I can, these days! =A0It stopped
> the game here.
Yes, It is Master Level and sees Mate in 8 Moves or about 16 ply deep.
When this game was played there was a bug that have been removed now,
Let me know how you face it now.
I saw the game where it was drawn as you had only 2 Bishops left.
Game Played between help bot and master at GetClub.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------------=
----
help bot: (White)
master: (Black)
Game Played at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
View Recorded Game: http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?id=3DDM19867&game=3D=
Chess
----------------------------------------------------------------------------=
----
White -- Black
(help bot) -- (master)
1. f2-f4{12} d7-d5{356}
2. g2-g3{54} Ng8-f6{894}
3. Bf1-g2{28} Nb8-c6{516}
4. Ng1-f3{74} Nf6-g4{520}
5. Ke1-g1{134} g7-g6{380}
6. h2-h3{114} Ng4-f6{450}
7. d2-d3{62} Bf8-g7{598}
8. Qd1-e1{210} Ke8-g8{384}
9. c2-c3{162} Qd8-d6{420}
10. e2-e4{150} d5-e4{438}
11. d3-e4{16} Qd6-d3{386}
12. e4-e5{202} Nf6-e4{446}
13. Nb1-d2{56} Bc8-f5{324}
14. g3-g4{530} Ne4-d2{324}
15. Qe1-d2{40} Bf5-e4{658}
16. Qd2-d3{38} Be4-d3{668}
17. Rf1-d1{24} Bd3-e2{670}
18. Rd1-e1{336} Be2-f3{356}
19. Bg2-f3{6} Ra8-d8{336}
20. Bc1-e3{568} Rd8-d3{360}
21. Ra1-d1{64} Rd3-d1{494}
22. Re1-d1{18} Rf8-d8{500}
23. Rd1-d8{34} Nc6-d8{666}
24. Be3-a7{64} b7-b6{332}
25. Ba7-b8{146} Nd8-e6{388}
26. f4-f5{70} Ne6-g5{542}
27. Bf3-g2{84} Bg7-e5{412}
28. h3-h4{44} g6-f5{484}
29. h4-g5{20} f5-g4{322}
30. a2-a4{42} h7-h5{328}
31. g5-h6{46} Kg8-h7{556}
32. b2-b4{48} Kh7-h6{344}
33. a4-a5{30} b6-a5{1208}
34. b4-a5{8} Be5-c3{672}
35. Bb8-c7{32} f7-f5{1200}
36. a5-a6{62} Bc3-d4{634}
37. Kg1-f1{42} Kh6-g5{430}
38. Bc7-b8{30} Bd4-e3{408}
39. a6-a7{32} Be3-a7{670}
40. Bb8-a7{6} f5-f4{368}
41. Bg2-e4{36} e7-e5{980}
42. Ba7-b6{76} Kg5-f6{346}
43. Kf1-e2{76} Kf6-f7{522}
44. Be4-f5{34} g4-g3{452}
45. Bf5-e4{88} Kf7-e7{414}
46. Bb6-c5{30} Ke7-f6{628}
47. Bc5-d6{42} Kf6-e6{474}
48. Bd6-c7{46} Ke6-f6{642}
49. Ke2-f3{24} Kf6-e6{662}
50. Kf3-g4{16} Ke6-f6{336}
51. Be4-d5{36} f4-f3{374}
52. Kg4-g3{36} Kf6-f5{612}
53. Kg3-f3{18} e5-e4{486}
54. Kf3-e3{40} Kf5-g6{402}
55. Ke3-e4{22}
----------------------------------------------------------------------------=
----
help bot: (White)
master: (Black)
Game Played at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
View Recorded Game: http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?id=3DDM19867&game=3D=
Chess
How do you think the Game is playing against you?
Bye
Sanny
Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
|
| |
Date: 29 Apr 2008 23:02:42
From: help bot
Subject: Re: Analyze game between Help Bot & Normal Level
|
On Apr 27, 1:57 am, Sanny <[email protected] > wrote:
> Below is a decent game, But in the end Help Bot was a pawn ahead. I
> found at move 17... Nf6xe4 Help Bot took the Pawn. Was there any way
> for Normal Level to save that Pawn, As all moves were forced moves.
>
> Game Played between help bot and normal at GetClub.com
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> help bot: (Black)
> normal: (White)
> Game Played at:http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
> View Recorded Game:http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?id=DM19732&game=Chess
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> White -- Black
> (normal) -- (help bot)
>
> 1. d2-d4{0} d7-d6{14}
> 2. Qd1-d3{138} g7-g6{52}
The Queen should not be "developed" before the
minor pieces without good reason. Sooner or later,
she will come under fire and be forced to retreat,
at a loss of time.
> 3. d4-d5{116} Bf8-g7{24}
> 4. Nb1-c3{92} Ng8-f6{46}
> 5. Ng1-f3{84} Ke8-g8{10}
> 6. e2-e4{180} c7-c5{112}
> 7. Bf1-e2{200} Nb8-a6{46}
> 8. Ke1-g1{82} Na6-c7{88}
> 9. h2-h3{158} Ra8-b8{64}
> 10. Bc1-e3{252} b7-b5{28}
> 11. a2-a3{224} a7-a5{140}
> 12. Ra1-a2{84} Bc8-d7{208}
The program often plays its Rooks to stupid
squares, as it did here. (If there is a tactical
problem with the pawn on b2, it should be
covered some other way.)
> 13. Nf3-g5{278} b5-b4{22}
This is where the program hung a pawn to a very
simple combination.
> 14. Nc3-b1{136} Bd7-b5{102}
> 15. Qd3-d1{84} h7-h6{26}
> 16. Be2-b5{80} Nc7-b5{22}
> 17. Ng5-f3{114} Nf6-e4{20}
> 18. Qd1-d3{158} Ne4-f6{28}
> 19. c2-c4{206} Nb5-c7{44}
> 20. b2-b3{132} Rb8-a8{36}
> 21. Be3-f4{192} Qd8-d7{60}
> 22. Ra2-e2{132} Rf8-e8{58}
> 23. Rf1-e1{112} Nc7-a6{54}
My computer thinks I threw away my advantage
with all these crazy Knight moves, but I see that
I still have a pawn more, regardless.
> 24. Re2-e3{158} Ra8-a7{64}
> 25. a3-a4{158} Na6-c7{38}
> 26. Re1-e2{168} Nc7-a8{12}
> 27. Nb1-d2{98} Na8-b6{32}
> 28. g2-g4{158} h6-h5{66}
> 29. g4-g5{84} Nf6-h7{26}
> 30. h3-h4{114} Nh7-f8{68}
> 31. Nd2-e4{88} Ra7-a8{114}
> 32. Ne4-g3{90} Ra8-d8{66}
> 33. Re3-e4{86} e7-e5{110}
> 34. d5-e6{114} Re8-e6{48}
Capturing on e6 was unwise, for it opens things
up for me-- the guy with the extra pawn. Better
to sit back and make me find some way to make
headway on my own.
> 35. Re2-d2{142} d6-d5{40}
> 36. c4-d5{124} Nb6-d5{62}
> 37. Bf4-e5{90} Nd5-c3{34}
> 38. Qd3-d7{118} Rd8-d7{10}
> 39. Be5-c3{132} Bg7-c3{40}
Here my computer thinks I was winning outright
if I had recaptured on c3 with the pawn-- creating
a very dangerous far-advanced passer. I saw it
as a potential weakness, possibly getting gobbled
up by the White King many moves hence.
> 40. Rd2-d7{96} Nf8-d7{10}
> 41. Re4-e6{138} f7-e6{8}
> 42. Ng3-e4{138} Bc3-g7{158}
> 43. Nf3-d2{110} Bg7-e5{68}
> 44. Nd2-c4{82} Be5-c7{20}
> 45. f2-f3{102} Kg8-f8{78}
Instead of p-f3, simply bring the King forward.
> 46. Nc4-b2{102} Kf8-e7{138}
> 47. Kg1-f2{156} e6-e5{6}
This was very bad for me, as the pawn now sits
on a square (e5) I needed for my pieces. I was
having some trouble making headway, without
hanging a pawn to some funky Knight-fork. I did
not see a simple trick: after ...Ne5 (somewhere
around here), my pawns are all protected from
capture by various pins or forks, before or after
any exchanges.
> 48. Nb2-d3{82} c5-c4{156}
> 49. b3-c4{154} Nd7-f8{192}
> 50. Kf2-e3{140} Nf8-e6{62}
> 51. Ne4-f6{92} Bc7-d6{210}
> 52. Ke3-e4{92} Ne6-c5{142}
The King cannot come forward like this, because
a trade of pieces on c5 leaves Black with just two
pieces remaining-- one of which is forever tied to
watching the passed pawn on b3. General Zhou:
you stand here and just watch that nasty pawn; I
will take my men and win the war all by myself?!
> 53. Nd3-c5{102} Bd6-c5{6}
> 54. Ke4-e5{82} b4-b3{36}
> 55. Nf6-d5{122} Ke7-f7{44}
> 56. Nd5-c3{130} b3-b2{38}
> 57. f3-f4{158} Bc5-f2{74}
> 58. Nc3-b1{134} Bf2-h4{54}
> 59. c4-c5{190} Bh4-f2{92}
> 60. c5-c6{90} Bf2-b6{16}
> 61. Ke5-d6{108} h5-h4{24}
> 62. f4-f5{216} g6-f5{30}
> 63. Kd6-d7{114} h4-h3{20}
> 64. g5-g6{106} Kf7-g6{20}
> 65. Kd7-e6{88} h3-h2{30}
> 66. c6-c7{160} Bb6-c7{18}
> 67. Ke6-d7{86} Qh2-h1(Q)
> 68. Nb1-c3(100) Pf5-f4(34)
> 69. Nc3-b5(192) Qb2-b1(Q)
> 70. Kd7-c7(166)
Hey, hey-- the program sees a checkmate
coming long before I can, these days! It stopped
the game here.
-- help bot
|
| | |
Date: 07 May 2008 17:41:43
From: help bot
Subject: Re: It is Strange
|
On May 7, 8:03 pm, Patrick Volk <[email protected] > wrote:
> All the while, the main content of the r.g.c newsgroup has dwindled
> under the Sanny spam. Still trying to brute force it (in Java no
> less).
This last part is ludicrous; there is no easy way to
pinpoint the exact cause of any alleged dwindling of
rgc, let alone determine that Sanny should get all
the credit for it. In addition, there are, at the same
time, other such "spammers" who have bombarded
the chess newsgroups with advertisements for their
products; for instance, Larry Parr has been "over-
promoting" a recent book by Larry Evans for quite
some time; and Ray Gordon never stops with his
self-promo add-ons.
In addition, the fact is that /one of the reasons/
that Sanny has made less than amazing progress
is that nobody with any expertise has bothered to
help him much. A few folks have tossed out some
technical talk, but they have yet to explain the ins
and outs of programming a strong chess engine
here in rgc. Sure, Sanny could find that information
elsewhere, but if people have the time and energy
to discuss, say, Barry Goldwater, and what the
world might look like if Adolf Hitler had worn a pink
tutu, or whether or not Thomas Jefferson had any
slave-children, then how awful can it be for Sanny
to ask for help here, in a chess newsgroup?
Face it: chess is a complicated game, and even
the rules governing its play are far from simple. It
should therefore come as no surprise when a
newbie has difficulties in writing the world's soon-
to-be strongest chess program... . ; >D
-- help bot
|
| | | |
Date: 11 May 2008 13:51:28
From: Patrick Volk
Subject: Re: It is Strange
|
On Wed, 7 May 2008 17:41:43 -0700 (PDT), help bot
<[email protected] > wrote:
>On May 7, 8:03 pm, Patrick Volk <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> All the while, the main content of the r.g.c newsgroup has dwindled
>> under the Sanny spam. Still trying to brute force it (in Java no
>> less).
>
> This last part is ludicrous; there is no easy way to
>pinpoint the exact cause of any alleged dwindling of
>rgc, let alone determine that Sanny should get all
>the credit for it. In addition, there are, at the same
>time, other such "spammers" who have bombarded
>the chess newsgroups with advertisements for their
>products; for instance, Larry Parr has been "over-
>promoting" a recent book by Larry Evans for quite
>some time; and Ray Gordon never stops with his
>self-promo add-ons.
But the lack Sanny's persistence, and consistency of message. He's
always fixed a bug, and now it's always 'much improved'.
>
> In addition, the fact is that /one of the reasons/
>that Sanny has made less than amazing progress
>is that nobody with any expertise has bothered to
>help him much.
I know if I were to undertake a chess engine, I wouldn't start with
usenet... I'd start at the library or bookstore. There's thousands of
pages on computer chess. That's not the fault of the group.
> A few folks have tossed out some
>technical talk, but they have yet to explain the ins
>and outs of programming a strong chess engine
>here in rgc.
Again, that's not the fault of the group. Usenet isn't really good for
depth... would you write a thesis based on usenet research? But, to
get into the details of position scoring, lookahead, alpha-beta
pruning, and probably one of the more difficult aspects, knowing where
to adjust for difficulty would be incredibly difficult.
Any one of those subjects can get pretty complicated, and to use a
question-response mechanism to extract information is going to likely
be futile. Consdiering Sanny's domain expertise on the subject as well
(as in not knowing how to properly do a draw) makes it extremely
futile.
It is also a question of the tools at hand. Sanny as a self-promoter
is on par with Ray Gordon, just nowhere near as angry.
> Sure, Sanny could find that information
>elsewhere, but if people have the time and energy
>to discuss, say, Barry Goldwater, and what the
>world might look like if Adolf Hitler had worn a pink
>tutu, or whether or not Thomas Jefferson had any
>slave-children, then how awful can it be for Sanny
>to ask for help here, in a chess newsgroup?
If any of those subjects persisted over at least a year, I'd say
there'd be nothing left of the dead horse to beat, which is my point.
Let's not forget Sanny isn't doing this for the sake of chess, he'd
doing it for making money. Nothing wrong with that, but the babe in
the woods routine isn't the right manner.
>
> Face it: chess is a complicated game, and even
>the rules governing its play are far from simple. It
>should therefore come as no surprise when a
>newbie has difficulties in writing the world's soon-
>to-be strongest chess program... . ;>D
Maybe he should start with tic-tac-toe, nim, then working his way up
to checkers. Probably a good test for his chess engine would be the
Atari 2600 chess game at expert (4-6 hours per move). A note, the 2600
only allows like 2K of ROM (16K max maybe), and had like 256 bytes of
RAM.
And if he tested against programs like that, he wouldn't be here daily
saying how he improved his program. Don't know who he's kidding with
his 'staff', as well, aside from maybe you Help bot ;)
>
>
> -- help bot
>
>
>
>
>
>
|
| |
Date: 28 Apr 2008 01:19:26
From: Sanny
Subject: Re: Analyze game between Help Bot & Normal Level
|
These days Help Bot was easily winning against the normal Level. and
even once won against advance level.
While 2 weeks back he was beaten by even Beginner Level So There was a
Big Bug which was Overprotecting the King.
And it was giving out its pieces for slight protection of the King.
Now that Bug has been Corrected and Help Bot will get fierce
competition against the Beginner & Easy Levels.
So I suggest Help Bot to play with Beginner Level first instead of
Advance Level as the game will play much stronger now since the Bug
has been Removed.
Bye
Sanny
Play Chess at:http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
|
|
